Logging Dnf's

October 26, 2004

Talking to a number of fellow cachers of the weekend, I was disappointed to learn of their attitude when unsuccessful. In two instances, they came up empty, unable to find the cache. Because they were unsuccessful, they felt it was a waste of time to log a DNF. I tried to explain how important it was to log EVERY attempt, the cache owner needs the information, but they were adamant that they would only log if they were successful.

Anyone else have similar experiences, or, do you log DNF's?

Edited October 26, 2004 by Azaruk

October 26, 2004

I have only had a few attempts so far, all unsuccessful. I didn't log any of them. I think I'll log DNFs when I've learnt how to actually find some.

38.2k · October 26, 2004

I always log my DNF's. If I hunt a cache 5 times and come up empty, I log 5 DNFs. They provide important information to the cache owner and other geocachers. As an owner, if I see a few DNF's I'll consider adjusting my difficulty rating upward. On the other hand, if I don't see any, I'll assume my rating is fine and leave it be. Now if people are out there looking for my cache and coming up empty, how am I going to know to make an adjustment if they're not logging their DNF's?

Also, a DNF could alert me to the chance my cache may be gone. I'll usually go out and check on the cache after 2-3 consecutive DNF's. Now if "Cacher 1" doesn't log a DNF, "Cacher 2" does, "Cacher 3" doesn't and "Cacher 4" does, it will probably delay my checking on the cache, which in turn wastes the time of the other cachers who are out there hunting a cache that isn't there.

Also, as a cache hunter, I'll look at the logs. If I see nothing but "smiley faces", I'll figure its an easy cache and will expect to find it fairly quickly. If I don't find it, I'll probably assume its missing and give up after a short while. However, if the cache logs have some DNF's sprinkled among them, I'll know that the cache isn't necessarily a slam dunk hunt and will devote some extra time to it.

I have only had a few attempts so far, all unsuccessful. I didn't log any of them. I think I'll log DNFs when I've learnt how to actually find some.

I disagree with this attitude. The fact that you can't find the cache could mean that the cache is more difficult than the owner realizes. A 1 star difficulty cache should be a piece of cake even for a novice. If, as a cache owner, I see DNF's on a cache that I rated one star, I'd realize it's probably rated too low.

Another benefit of logging DNFs is that the owner may see it and give you an extra clue. If he doesn' know you're looking for it, this won't happen.

Some novices are afraid that their DNF might unecessarily alarm the cache owner. That isn't the case. If most of us get a lone DNF for one of our caches and see that the person who logged it is new, it is taken into consideration. There is also a chance that even though you are a novice, the cache really is gone. By not logging it, you might be delaying a visit from the owner and ultimately, wasting the time of other geocachers.

Your DNF is an important piece of information for the cache owner whether you are an accomplished geocacher, or just starting out.

Edited October 26, 2004 by briansnat

3.8k · October 26, 2004

I always log them . Or else how will anyone know there is a problem and it COULD be missing.

Its not an admission of failure :blink:

October 26, 2004

We log all our DNF's. There is no shame in a DNF, unless of course you get some sort of complex from it. Besides it adds character.

October 26, 2004

I always ALWAYS log my DNFs too. To the point of being extremely detailed and annoying. It provides an interesting history of the cache, lets others know that other cachers cannot find it (they may be having problems too), and lets the cache owner know the status of their cache.

Without fail, LOG YOUR DNFs! And don't be too embarassed about it. You really can't take yourself seriously in this game. I once tried a cache three different times until a friend's 7-year old daughter found the cache within a few minutes. That's all part of fun of the game.

2.3k · October 26, 2004

do do

October 26, 2004

I always log the DNF's. The interesting thing is that most cache owners when the see a dnf will drop a note of encouragement and maybe even a hint to keep the fires burning.

October 26, 2004

I take special pride in logging my DNF's.

By logging them, I have a record of caches that I need to go back and find.

Plus, it is a record of what REALLY happened. . . .

I've even gotten to know a well known local hider who is known for difficult and clever hides.

1.1k · October 26, 2004

I log my DNFs now. I didn't always do that when I first started. I recently had one of my DNF logs deleted by the cache owner though :blink:

Zack

24.7k · October 26, 2004

I log my DNF's. Sometimes they are the better story. To be honest though somehwere sbout the 4th or 5th DNF I start feeling like a record stuck in a groove and I might slack off. Besides by that time I know the owner has the gist of the situation.

After reading ZackJones post I find it funny as hell that two owners asked me to change my DNF log becuase it was a spoiler. I complied but I wanted to ask "If it's such a freaking spoiler they when the heck didn't I find your cache!"

Edited October 26, 2004 by Renegade Knight

October 26, 2004

I've made two REAL attempts so far and both of them have come up short. I posted a DNF on both of the caches. I'm a n00b... I'll admit it!!

October 26, 2004

Thanks to all who have responded. I sincerely hope that the non-logging DNF's read the posts and act accordingly. Thanks again.

October 26, 2004

Being only a newbie myself i had to admit defeat on one cache i was looking for this was made an easier choice due to my children not being happy at not finding it, they started saying things like "hey dad, we give in... is there really a cache here?" So i admitted defeat but by no way am i calling it a day on this cache, i will return and find it someday. So I logged a DNF, yesterday i nearly logged my second DNF but i wouldn't give in and eventually found it.... do you know how good that feels??

VorvikHunter

October 26, 2004

I'm not sure I agree with logging a DNF for every unsuccessful visit. To me, it's not appropriate to log a DNF until you've given up looking, until you need an extra clue, or until you're certain that something is wrong with the cache.

Just this past weekend I returned to the sites of 6 caches that I hadn't been able to find, and I located 5 of them. They were all difficult hides and just required more looking and creativity on my part to find them. Also, I knew from recent log activity that these caches were all active and most likely in good shape.

However, if I have any evidence that something might be wrong with the cache, I'll post a DNF or note with information to that effect.

October 26, 2004

Out of 10 caches these past 2 week-ends I had 3 DNF and enjoyed logging them. For me the game is not finished until I log my visit, successful or not. It is fair to ourselves, to the owner and future hunters and important information for everybody, and if I am not mistaking, it is one of the rules of the game. I always read the DNF logs before I go. Also, I consider it a challenge when there are lots of DNF and I am happier if I find it, considering myself a better hunter than the others. I think it makes sense, doesn't it?

October 26, 2004

Always, always log your DNFs. Period. No ifs, buts, or maybes.

For all the reasons given above.

DNFs are usually a much better read as well.

There was one puzzle cache locally that I posted 3 DNFs on. When I finally found it, it was all the more rewarding.

3.8k · October 26, 2004

If I get out of the van and don't sign the log I get a DNF.

The only exception to this is if I am searching a multi cache and decide not to go after the next stage due to time constraints. I do log a note on these. If I don't find a stage that I am looking for it is a DNF. My reason for this is that I have found all parts that I stepped out of the van for but didn't finish the cache.

38.2k · October 26, 2004

I'm not sure I agree with logging a DNF for every unsuccessful visit. To me, it's not appropriate to log a DNF until you've given up looking, until you need an extra clue, or until you're certain that something is wrong with the cache.

I don't get that line of reasoning. When you head out to find a cache there are two possiblilties. You found it, or you didn't. The "found it" log is for the former and the "didn't find it" is for the latter. There are no choices for "need a clue", or "I gave up looking", or "I'm certain something is wrong with the cache".

The point of a DNF is not to indicate a problem with the cache, though it can. It's there to tell the owner and other geocachers that someone tried to find it and couldn't. The reason can be explained in the log's text.

If you made 3 unsuccessful trips to look for the cache, how is the owner supposed to know unless you logged the DNF's?

October 26, 2004

I log DNFs, just for my own records, and extra motivation to try again.

-Bob

October 26, 2004

its embarrassing but I do too...

Although I don't like logging a DNF if I had to quit looking because of a kid needs to go potty or anything like that, but I do anyway.

October 26, 2004

I find it encouraging to see DNF. Especially for someone new like me. If I cant find a cache I want to know if others have had the same problem. Seeing the DNF's has helped me in actually finding the cache.

October 26, 2004

To me, it's not appropriate to log a DNF until you've given up looking, until you need an extra clue, or until you're certain that something is wrong with the cache.

I don't get that line of reasoning. When you head out to find a cache there are two possiblilties. You found it, or you didn't.

I'll have to agree with briansnat on this one. :blink:

RubberToes reasoning makes some sense if finds vs no finds is a scoring game with rules, referees, prizes, penalties, etc. It isn't, except in the minds of those who believe it is. I think those that log DNF every time they get out of the vehicle and come back empty handed are in the same camp. This is not a putdown of such people; We all make up our own games (FTF is one of mine) that have no official standing.

I don't always log a DNF. If I have no information to add to the logs and there's some other reason than the failure of a good search, such as having only five minutes to look for a four star micro, then I don't always log. Multiple visits to the site earn only one DNF, which gets added to with each visit. That keeps the clutter down and all of my records in one place. If someone else is keeping score on my DNFs then... too bad, but I don’t care.

I wouldn't get too concerned about how others play the game. It will only lead to unhappiness.

October 26, 2004

A load of good responses!!! Didn't realise there would be so many!

I think 'BlindLeader' has summed it all up in a nutshell. It's up to the 'hunter', but with adequate feedback to the 'hider'.

Thanks to all who have responded.

Keep on playing!

5k · October 26, 2004

DNFs are great!

I'll tell you what. You'll not likely find me reading your smiley logs, but I occasionally go through the "latest logs" list on the main page and randomly click on the DNFs because they invariably contain interesting stories. Same with local caches. I like to scroll through the logs to find those DNFs and see what happened.

I can't imagine going out caching and coming home and logging nothing because, "I didn't look hard enough," or something else. In fact, that's exactly what I write in my DNFs. Like Brian said, if you look there can be only two results. Find or no find.

I have DNFs that say such things as, "Got to area but there were too many people around, so I couldn't look," and "With all the recent rain, I couldn't get near the cache without getting wet." I even have one that says, "I was wearing cycling shoes and shorts today, and didn't want to go bounding through the woods after this one."

Of course, my real logs use a lot more words than that. :blink:

Really, DNFs are just part of your caching experience. In fact, I've recently been an advocate of abolishing the find count, and replacing it with a count for "attempts" which adds up all your smileys and frownies. Frankly, I've had a blast on almost all my DNFs, so why should I not point that out to the cache owner who was cool enough to put it out there?

Jamie

October 26, 2004

If you made 3 unsuccessful trips to look for the cache, how is the owner supposed to know unless you logged the DNF's?

Well, when I finally make a find and log it, I'll usually say something like "Found this on my third visit" along with explaining (cryptically, of course) what kind of trouble I had. And at that point I'm often pretty enthusiastic about what a clever hid it was.

I often visit caches while out walking in the company of Mrs. RubberToes. She will put up with a limited amount of searching, but she won't agree to hunting an hour for a micro. So we move on rather quickly. In this case, I didn't find the cache, but I certainly didn't give the area a complete study. I have every intention of popping back in a day or two on my own to finish the hunt.

I guess I just consider this a suspended search and don't log it until I either decide that I found it, or I can't find it.

I see a lot of encrypted hints on cache pages that say something like "Post a DNF to get an additional clue." And I know a lot of hiders will email you some hints if you post a DNF. But if I'm in the middle of a "suspended search," I'm not looking for additional clues, so I keep quiet.

All that said. Let me explain that most of my caching is being done within 10 miles of my home, so it's easy to make multiple visits if necessary to complete the task. If I were caching in some far-flung place and wouldn't have the opportunity for repeat visits, I probably would post a DNF.

Edited October 26, 2004 by RubberToes

October 26, 2004

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.

Why would they have bothered implementing DNFs as an option if we were supposed to use them? And how is it helpful to anyone NOT to log them?

Thorin

3.3k · October 26, 2004

I hope not to offend anyone here, but I'm gonna tell it like I see it:

From experience, I ignore posted DNF's from folks with less than 50 finds or so, cause I almost always find the cache they could not. This has happened numerous times here in San Diego, and once in Las Vegas.

So, should you post DNF's? Yes, I highly encourage it but I'm not too concern if new folks shy away. However, you're only hurting yourself cause I will send an email to the newbie DNF'ers with an offer to provide a supplemental hint. Some have taken my offer, others have not.

Edit note: RubberToes, that's a hilarious name and avatar; I like :lol: .

Edited October 26, 2004 by Chuy

38.2k · October 26, 2004

Edit note: RubberToes, that's a hilarious name and avatar; I like

But there could be some confusion.

October 26, 2004

It depends with us. If we didn't try too hard, then we usually don't log the DNF. If we put some effort in it, and couldn't find it, then we log it.

9.5k · October 27, 2004

When I first started, I didn't log DNF's. But a DNF is an experience for the seeker and informative for the hider as well as future seekers. At the very least, they should post a note.

October 27, 2004

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is to update the logs as you go. Each time I've gone after a cache, I've made an entry to the log and deleted the previous entry that I made. If I'm unsuccessful on a hunt, I'll log a DNF. If I go back at a later date and find it, I can log an FI and tell everyone how many times I had to go back to look for it. Then delete the DNF's I've made so as not to worry the cache owner.

Ray

1.7k · October 27, 2004

I log DNF's and I agree with briansnat's excellent essay on the reasons it's important to do so.

Last week I logged a DNF even though I didn't get out of the car -- in fact I never stopped the car. I couldn't find anywhere to park legally that was anywhere near the cache.

Drove around the big block a couple of times. Couldn’t find a place to park with access to the cache. Figured I shouldn’t drive onto the golf course.

The big block was about two miles on a side. No parking in the surrounding area either. You could park in front of people's houses and walk through their yards but I'm not about to do that.

On the other hand I don't log caches I don't really try to find and don't think the reason adds anything. That same afternoon I pulled up to what I'm sure was the nearest parking to the cache and it was too far for me on my schedule and in the heat, so I just drove on and saw no reason to log it as a DNF. The owner knows how far a hike it is and he can explain it in the description if he wants people to know. It would have to have been a DNT -- did not try.

Edited October 27, 2004 by Thot

October 27, 2004

I will always log a no-find unless there is no way I can get to a cache that is viable. I mean flooded access or something that would prevent me from even trying to find the cache. If I can't look for it, I certainly couldn't find it. Therefore its not a no-find, its a not able to look. I will post a note in that case. Otherwise, If I can't find the cache I always log the DNF. Its only fair to the hider and true to yourself.

8.1k · October 27, 2004

I often see or meet newbies who don't log DNFs. I usually tell them that it isn't a failure, you only learn from your mistakes, not your successes.

I always log DNFs.

On of my more memorable DNFS

5k · October 27, 2004

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is to update the logs as you go.

Probably because this method is frowned upon.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If I make a search for a cache, then later go back and find it, it doesn't change that I didn't find it the first time.

As it's often said, the logs are a history of the cache. When you make a log entry, you add to the history, be it a find, no-find, or a note. Why go back and change that log because of subsequent information? That log entry is still relevent, there just happens to be more to tell--which you do--in another log entry.

Jamie

1.7k · October 27, 2004

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is to update the logs as you go.

Probably because this method is frowned upon.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If I make a search for a cache, then later go back and find it, it doesn't change that I didn't find it the first time.

And, more important as far as I'm concerned, there’s no DNF for others to use to assess the difficulty of the cache. I quickly scan through the logs looking for purple faces. If I see several I go prepared for it to be more difficult than the average one star rating.

Another point I intended to make earlier -- many people don’t log their DNFs at all, so if you see 3 in twenty there have probably been more like 6-9. I often see where someone says something like, “Took me three tries, but I finally found it.” And if you go through the logs there’s no a single DNF.

I feel it's a disservice to other cachers.

October 27, 2004

Methinks that if I were to log DNFs I would be skewing the cache's average, making it look harder than it really is. At the moment I'm just not finding any because I'm inexperienced. Surely it's acceptable to hold off on DNFs until you've started to gain your bearings?

October 27, 2004

I log my DNF's and I do it proudly.

This recent one, I DNF'd THREE times within a few days. Lower Arroyo Caching Trail #3

Several other cachers also came up empty, logged their own DNF's and now the owner will check on it.

(The cache owned by one of the cachers that I mention in my log, "Find a Job at City Hall" by the Mannings, was the first cache I hunted and my first DNF. I knew that the owner would see that I was a newbie and not be unduly alarmed that the cache was missing. In fact, she emailed me with an offer of a hint, which I declined. I wanted to find it on my own. And a day or two later, I did just that. )

And if you ever happen upon cache page logs from any caches by Igbay Oobay, you will find plenty of DNF's from me. But I kept going back til I found them.

I don't understand cachers who have some sort of shame or embarrasment when it comes to admitting they didn't find it.

I've logged DNF's on caches that EVERY previous cacher said was an "easy find".

On the other hand, I've had easy finds on devious cammo'd caches that even very experienced cachers had a hard time finding.

We all have different abilities, we all have bad days. But we shouldn't feel shame if we don't find a cache. Are we being judged and nobody told me? Is it a contest?

I just go out there to have fun, see new places and then report back on the cache page....whether I find it or not.

3.3k · October 27, 2004

I log a DNF if I've made a meaningful search for the cache but couldn't find it. Likewise I log a DNF if the cache sheet refers to things that have clearly been removed.

Sometimes I'll try and pick off a cache on my way home from work - if I've only spent a few minutes looking (especially if the target is a micro) then I don't bother logging a DNF on the basis that a cache isn't supposed to be visible to those making little more than a cursory glance over the vicinity.

I see the DNF as performing two functions - providing an alert to the owner that the cache may be missing, or offering them the satisfaction of knowing that they hid it well.

October 27, 2004

I always log them. Last Sunday I logged 3 DNFs and 3 finds - certainly the worst "percentage" day I've had since starting. I always like reading the logs of cachers who say "Took me 4 times to find this one..." but there aren't any DNF's for them online. It doesn't mean you're a bad cacher if you can't find one, it could mean you're insecure if you don't log it.

3.3k · October 27, 2004

If I get out of the van and don't sign the log I get a DNF.

The only exception to this is if I am searching a multi cache and decide not to go after the next stage due to time constraints. I do log a note on these. If I don't find a stage that I am looking for it is a DNF. My reason for this is that I have found all parts that I stepped out of the van for but didn't finish the cache.

I have to second this approach. One of the multis I tried on holiday left me unable to find the final cache, for the simple reason I'd got one of the virtuals wrong. I posted a note to that effect and said I hoped to revisit it.

As luck would have it the next day I revisited the area, checked the offending virtual, moved the target about a mile and there was the cache. It took a bit of getting to, not least a close encounter of the worst kind with a gorse bush, but then it was rated something like 3/3.

38.2k · October 27, 2004

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is to update the logs as you go.

Probably because this method is frowned upon.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If I make a search for a cache, then later go back and find it, it doesn't change that I didn't find it the first time.

As it's often said, the logs are a history of the cache. When you make a log entry, you add to the history, be it a find, no-find, or a note. Why go back and change that log because of subsequent information? That log entry is still relevent, there just happens to be more to tell--which you do--in another log entry.

Jamie

And when you update the log, the owner doesn't get a notification. Onwers only get notification of new logs.

38.2k · October 27, 2004

Methinks that if I were to log DNFs I would be skewing the cache's average, making it look harder than it really is. At the moment I'm just not finding any because I'm inexperienced. Surely it's acceptable to hold off on DNFs until you've started to gain your bearings?

Youthinks wrong :huh: . Your experience level has nothing to do whether you should log a DNF or not. Maybe if there was a choice that said "couldn't find it, but I'm new", but there isn't. Many experienced geocachers DNF easy caches. The famed CCCooperAgency with

close to 4,000 finds DNF'd an easy 1/1 that I had found in seconds. I DNFed a cache that a novice without a GPS found 2 days later.

As I said earlier, you either found the cache or you didn't. There are log choices for both scenarios. You should easily find a 1 star difficulty cache even though you are inexperienced. If you are not finding a 1 difficulty and not logging your DNF, how is the owner going to know that that cache should probably be rated a bit higher?

Edited October 27, 2004 by briansnat

October 27, 2004

Actually, there aren't any single star caches nearby. I would have to drive a significant distance to reach one.

But whatever, if people would somehow find it useful then so be it. I just have to find some time to try again.

October 27, 2004

I don't log DNF's.

Every time that I've been unable to find a cache someone else has found it within a day or two of my unsuccessful search. If I think there is a problem with the cache, I'll e-mail the owner directly with an exact description of the problem.

As a cache owner, if no one logs a find on my cache in awhile, I'll go out and check it myself (normal cache maintenance).

When I hide a cache, I want anyone who is looking for it to be able to find it. If the hiding spot is not fairly easy to find, I'll have a clue that will tell you where it is if you are within any reasonable distance. If you e-mail me I will give you as much information as you want to help you find the cache.

Don't bother trying to get me to change my mind on this. You won't.

October 27, 2004

(Jamie Z @ Oct 26 2004, 10:23 PM)
(ozarkray @ Oct 26 2004, 07:47 PM)
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is to update the logs as you go.

Probably because this method is frowned upon.

:huh: OK! Learned something new. Thanks for the info.

Ray

October 28, 2004

To all who replied - thanks.

It became an interesting topic with some excellent points raised.

The discussion was well worth the post!

I am going to close it now, I think we've all had an interesting time, so let's move on.

Keep on playing!!!!

Logging Dnf's

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