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Caching with weapons


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I like guns and knives. I don't carry them as defensive weapons usually. I never learned the art of the quick draw. I know that there are cachers who do carry defensive weapons and I was wondering how they carried them efficently and/or effectively.

 

In a backpacking situation, humping a 3 pound pistol is just extra weight and normally not very accessible. It just doesn't seem practical. Even a day hike/geocache seems problematic.

 

Any tips?

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I agree that firearms are too heavy. I like to go w/ pepperspray in my front pocket w/ nothing else in that pocket.

 

----(sig line)---> Did you ever do any trail maintainence? - if so you will know that all but the most worn trails need continuous maintenance to prevent mother nature from reclaiming it. herd paths are quickly reclaimed - k2dave

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quote:
Originally posted by solohiker:

I like guns and knives. I don't carry them as defensive weapons usually. I never learned the art of the quick draw. I know that there are cachers who do carry defensive weapons and I was wondering how they carried them efficently and/or effectively.

 

In a backpacking situation, humping a 3 pound pistol is just extra weight and normally not very accessible. It just doesn't seem practical. Even a day hike/geocache seems problematic.

 

Any tips?


 

I don't do guns, but I carry pepper spray when I cache. Mostly I'm concerned about dogs, but ps might be efective on people if they didn't take it away from me!

 

Bluespreacher

 

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

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I don't worry about it at local caches or well-visited, well-known parks, but when I take my daughter out to more remote areas I tend to take a good hiking stick, a cell phone and pepper spray in my front pocket on a belt clip. I figure that some day I will run across an angry dog on the loose or some crazy person looking for trouble and I'd like to have some sort of an edge. The pepper spray will problbly site in my pocket forever but I still feel better when I have it along.

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For small local parks I rarely bring anything with me. For caches that tend to be in the woods I carry a hiking stick, a whistle, and pepper spray. If there is a ranger or station or something of that nature I check with them to see if there are animals I need to be aware of.

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i take my mother in law with me. she is a witch and can cast a spell on the would be attacker and turn them into a newt. or she can just be her condesending self and brow beat them to death. either way works for me. icon_eek.gif

And no, i dont have issues with my mother in law!

SR and dboggny. Oh man, my mother in law is here9372_700.gif

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i take my mother in law with me. she is a witch and can cast a spell on the would be attacker and turn them into a newt. or she can just be her condesending self and brow beat them to death. either way works for me. icon_eek.gif

And no, i dont have issues with my mother in law!

SR and dboggny. Oh man, my mother in law is here9372_700.gif

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I've got a nice collection of guns & knives. For traveling with a lightweight gun, look at the Kel-Tec 32 cal. pistol. VERY lightweight. Only 6.6 oz empty. It's a double-action only, so it's very safe to carry. I have two of them, one is carried by the wife.

 

As someone once said to me, "it's the gun you carry when you're not carrying a gun". Yea, I've got a .38, .357, .45, etc., but those are all too heavy to put in my shorts pocket during the Summer unless my ankles need the shade.

 

Here's a link to their website: http://www.kel-tec.com/prod02.htm

 

My In-laws also own a couple of these, my father has one, and a number of my plinking buddies have them too: http://www.2manytoyz.com/plink.html

 

Don't kid yourself into thinking a .32 doesn't have enough knock down power. This gun is also rated for the occasional use of +P ammo. The price is about $250-$275 for the one with the Hard Chrome Finish. It's small enough that I can hide it under my hand. icon_wink.gif

 

Robert

http://www.2manytoyz.com/

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I've got a nice collection of guns & knives. For traveling with a lightweight gun, look at the Kel-Tec 32 cal. pistol. VERY lightweight. Only 6.6 oz empty. It's a double-action only, so it's very safe to carry. I have two of them, one is carried by the wife.

 

As someone once said to me, "it's the gun you carry when you're not carrying a gun". Yea, I've got a .38, .357, .45, etc., but those are all too heavy to put in my shorts pocket during the Summer unless my ankles need the shade.

 

Here's a link to their website: http://www.kel-tec.com/prod02.htm

 

My In-laws also own a couple of these, my father has one, and a number of my plinking buddies have them too: http://www.2manytoyz.com/plink.html

 

Don't kid yourself into thinking a .32 doesn't have enough knock down power. This gun is also rated for the occasional use of +P ammo. The price is about $250-$275 for the one with the Hard Chrome Finish. It's small enough that I can hide it under my hand. icon_wink.gif

 

Robert

http://www.2manytoyz.com/

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Wow some of you folks have put some thought into this.

 

I usually carry a stick when I hike, but I am experimenting with trekking poles. I am not sure about the trekking poles, but I know I can fend off a dog with a stick and I am pretty sure I can disable a single human with a stick as well. I don't see guns or pepper spray as an effective alternative. I mean the stick is always in my hands. I think I would have to develop a special technique or skill to get a gun/pepper spray in my hand fast enough to be effective. Carrying a pistol on my belt seems absurd.

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quote:
Originally posted by solohiker:

I am not sure about the trekking poles, but I know I can fend off a dog with a stick and I am pretty sure I can disable a single human with a stick as well.


 

Unfortunately, pit bulls are a way of life here in the South. There's been many stories in the news about one latching on and having to be killed before it would let go. If it already has a hold of you, you won't get much of a whack at such a close range, especially if he's eating your arm. Seeing hunting dogs while in the woods is a common occurance. Most are friendly, some have been abused. It isn't common that someone is attacked by man nor beast, but if defense is your choice, then a firearm is more effective. Still carry the stick, but have a small cannon if needed.

 

The Kel-Tec is so small that they offer a built-in belt clip. Bigger than a pager, shorter than a cell phone. It can be slipped inside the belt line of a pair of shorts or pants and pratically forgotten.

 

Carrying a gun is absurd... until you need it. I had hoped that this thread wouldn't turn into pro/con gun debate. That's a personal choice, you decide and live with the consequences either way. If you want to know why I, my family and my friends carry guns, contact me directly and I'll tell you some horror stories. Bottom line is the main predator I'm concerned about is the two legged kind.

 

If you do carry a gun, please take an NRA rated gun safety course so you don't shoot yourself or me!

 

Robert

http://www.2manytoyz.com/

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I usually have my trekking pole and my Swiss Army knife (But as my father always says "Name a war that the Swiss army ever won"). I guess if someone comes at me with a gun, I'm dead. Anything else, I'll take my chances. I'm a fairly big guy and I can swing a mean trekking pole.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

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quote:
Originally posted by 2manytoyz:

lightweight gun, look at the Kel-Tec 32 cal. pistol. VERY lightweight. Only 6.6 oz empty. It's a double-action only, so it's very safe to carry. I have two of them, one is carried by the wife.


I have a Beretta Tomcat .32 acp, simular dimensions. Nice pocket gun.

 

quote:
As someone once said to me, "it's the gun you carry when you're not carrying a gun". Yea, I've got a .38, .357, .45, etc., but those are all too heavy to put in my shorts pocket during the Summer unless my ankles need the shade.

 

Don't kid yourself into thinking a .32 doesn't have enough knock down power.


True... True...comeandgetsome.gif

 

Preperation, the first law to survival.

39197_400.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by 2manytoyz:

I've got a nice collection of guns & knives. For traveling with a lightweight gun, look at the Kel-Tec 32 cal. pistol. VERY lightweight. Only 6.6 oz empty. It's a double-action only, so it's very safe to carry. I have two of them, one is carried by the wife. Robert

http://www.2manytoyz.com/

 

I hope her's at least is loaded. icon_wink.gif

 

Alan

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quote:
Originally posted by 2manytoyz:

I've got a nice collection of guns & knives. For traveling with a lightweight gun, look at the Kel-Tec 32 cal. pistol. VERY lightweight. Only 6.6 oz empty. It's a double-action only, so it's very safe to carry. I have two of them, one is carried by the wife. Robert

http://www.2manytoyz.com/

 

I hope her's at least is loaded. icon_wink.gif

 

Alan

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quote:
Originally posted by solohiker:

I mean the stick is always in my hands. I think I would have to develop a special technique or skill to get a gun/pepper spray in my hand fast enough to be effective. Carrying a pistol on my belt seems absurd.


 

Of course it would be absurd to carry a fire arm on your belt. Unless you wear a jacket all the time. There are plenty of good and comfortable ways to carry a fire arm.

A walking stick sounds like a great first responce to a leathal force situation. You can't be expected to carry your fire arm in your hand every where.fal.gif

 

Preperation, the first law to survival.

39197_400.jpg

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I often don't carry when I know the area, but when I feel insecure I really like my Browning Challenger II (.22 auto). It is a little long with a 6" barrel, but it is lightweight, accurate, and pleasant to shoot.

 

icon_eek.gif Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son!

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I often don't carry when I know the area, but when I feel insecure I really like my Browning Challenger II (.22 auto). It is a little long with a 6" barrel, but it is lightweight, accurate, and pleasant to shoot.

 

icon_eek.gif Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son!

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quote:
Originally posted by 2manytoyz:

 

Unfortunately, pit bulls are a way of life here in the South. There's been many stories in the news about one latching on and having to be killed before it would let go. If it already has a hold of you, you won't get much of a whack at such a close range, especially if he's eating your arm.


 

I am not proud to admit this, but I beat a pitbull to death with a stick once. Actually I stabbed it to death. The Pit Bull grabbed my girlfriend's dog and I hit it with my stick three times before it let go. When it let go I stopped hitting it. It went for the dog again and I stuck my stick in its chest. It went right into the ribcage, but I still had to kick the dog go get it to let go.

 

Both dogs died.

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Bug Spray! Especially this time of year! I can't

imagine taking a loaded weapon to find a cache. We don't even own one!! icon_eek.gif

 

There has been times where we have been spooked by others on the trail, but they are usually

fellow cachers or just hiking on the trails.

 

I just hope my dog Chi would protect us if ever needed! icon_wink.gif

 

Duane from

Upinyachit

icon_smile.gif

 

Our feet go where the caches are! feet.gif

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Bug Spray! Especially this time of year! I can't

imagine taking a loaded weapon to find a cache. We don't even own one!! icon_eek.gif

 

There has been times where we have been spooked by others on the trail, but they are usually

fellow cachers or just hiking on the trails.

 

I just hope my dog Chi would protect us if ever needed! icon_wink.gif

 

Duane from

Upinyachit

icon_smile.gif

 

Our feet go where the caches are! feet.gif

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Always have the hiking stick, if I'm dressed there is a knife somewhere on my person, but if we are out in the woods, Ruger SP 101. Too many rabid foxes and raccoons in this area. I used to carry pepper spray, but I have seen it have no effect too many times at my job.

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quote:
I can't imagine taking a loaded weapon to find a cache. We don't even own one!! I just hope my dog Chi would protect us if ever needed!

 

Yep yep yep.... Personal protection. It could come from the local donut shop in 15 minutes, or in your hands right now. You do the math.

 

Dogs are wonderful. I own 5 of them. Great Danes. I would no more depend on them as I would 911. Luck is a fickle thing.... I prefer my own skills.

 

I thank God I live in Texas. After serving 20 years defending this country, I am glad that Texas allows me the choice to defend myself, family, friends, and yes... even YOU, if the situation warrents.

 

I do carry. All the time. So does my wife, and my son. My daughter is still too young by law, but she is qualified with every weapon we own.

 

quote:
There has been times where we have been spooked by others on the trail

 

Hmmmmm... never seems to happen to us. Perhaps we are more alert and not easily surprised. Or perhaps we are confident that we can defeat any credible threat, so we do not spook as easily.

 

Do I expect trouble? NO! Neither did a small 5 year old girl now dead. Neither did a cute teen-ager now kidnapped, or ??? I could tell you stories. The best is the Suzanna Hupp tale, from Killeen Texas... remember Luby's Cafeteria?

 

A gun is a tool. No better (or worse) than the person behind it. Wasn't it just last week in Washington DC that a group of kids were arrested for assault involving weapons... 6 foot long blow-guns with 6 inch darts? Take that in your eye!

(or lower... OUCH!)

 

How I carry on the trail. I got an uncle Mike's nylon paddle holster, and had the local shoe shop stitch it to the inside of a military 2 quart canteen cover. It looks like a big canteen riding on my right hip. It rides right good there too! And it is ready, should it be needed.

We also carry pepper FOAM, for non-lethal protection.

 

Those who are not comfortable with guns... I understand. It is your choice, and your right. I will volunteer to train ANY person who asks. Just get to our area for a weekend. I cannot make you a crack shot, but I can remove your fears. Seriously, most gun clubs offer training too.

 

It is a shame that the ones who could most benefit from having a gun are the ones most afraid of them. Ladies, listen. The only thing that makes a 98 pound woman equal to a 250 pound would-be rapist is a good handgun. Nobody EVER raped a .38. Refuse to be a victim!

 

All this said, thank you for not insisting that I get rid of my guns just because others are uncomfortable around them.

 

(SCRAPPPPPEEEEE) Soapbox put away now.

 

Thanks for your patience.

 

Mike. icon_biggrin.gif

 

My E-mail address: mailto:kd9kc@elp.rr.com

Ham Radio page: http://www.qsl.net/kd9kc/

Gun page: http://home.elp.rr.com/elpasochl/

Dog page: http://www.geocities.com/heartland/estates/4174

 

Member:

National Rifle Association.

Texas State Rifle Association.

Fort Bliss Practical Shooting Club.

United States Practical Shooting Association.

Gun Owners of America.

 

Holder:

Texas Concealed Handgun License.

 

U.S. Army Retired.

 

Freedom is expensive. Those who are not willing to pay the price ultimately lose everything.

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quote:
I can't imagine taking a loaded weapon to find a cache. We don't even own one!! I just hope my dog Chi would protect us if ever needed!

 

Yep yep yep.... Personal protection. It could come from the local donut shop in 15 minutes, or in your hands right now. You do the math.

 

Dogs are wonderful. I own 5 of them. Great Danes. I would no more depend on them as I would 911. Luck is a fickle thing.... I prefer my own skills.

 

I thank God I live in Texas. After serving 20 years defending this country, I am glad that Texas allows me the choice to defend myself, family, friends, and yes... even YOU, if the situation warrents.

 

I do carry. All the time. So does my wife, and my son. My daughter is still too young by law, but she is qualified with every weapon we own.

 

quote:
There has been times where we have been spooked by others on the trail

 

Hmmmmm... never seems to happen to us. Perhaps we are more alert and not easily surprised. Or perhaps we are confident that we can defeat any credible threat, so we do not spook as easily.

 

Do I expect trouble? NO! Neither did a small 5 year old girl now dead. Neither did a cute teen-ager now kidnapped, or ??? I could tell you stories. The best is the Suzanna Hupp tale, from Killeen Texas... remember Luby's Cafeteria?

 

A gun is a tool. No better (or worse) than the person behind it. Wasn't it just last week in Washington DC that a group of kids were arrested for assault involving weapons... 6 foot long blow-guns with 6 inch darts? Take that in your eye!

(or lower... OUCH!)

 

How I carry on the trail. I got an uncle Mike's nylon paddle holster, and had the local shoe shop stitch it to the inside of a military 2 quart canteen cover. It looks like a big canteen riding on my right hip. It rides right good there too! And it is ready, should it be needed.

We also carry pepper FOAM, for non-lethal protection.

 

Those who are not comfortable with guns... I understand. It is your choice, and your right. I will volunteer to train ANY person who asks. Just get to our area for a weekend. I cannot make you a crack shot, but I can remove your fears. Seriously, most gun clubs offer training too.

 

It is a shame that the ones who could most benefit from having a gun are the ones most afraid of them. Ladies, listen. The only thing that makes a 98 pound woman equal to a 250 pound would-be rapist is a good handgun. Nobody EVER raped a .38. Refuse to be a victim!

 

All this said, thank you for not insisting that I get rid of my guns just because others are uncomfortable around them.

 

(SCRAPPPPPEEEEE) Soapbox put away now.

 

Thanks for your patience.

 

Mike. icon_biggrin.gif

 

My E-mail address: mailto:kd9kc@elp.rr.com

Ham Radio page: http://www.qsl.net/kd9kc/

Gun page: http://home.elp.rr.com/elpasochl/

Dog page: http://www.geocities.com/heartland/estates/4174

 

Member:

National Rifle Association.

Texas State Rifle Association.

Fort Bliss Practical Shooting Club.

United States Practical Shooting Association.

Gun Owners of America.

 

Holder:

Texas Concealed Handgun License.

 

U.S. Army Retired.

 

Freedom is expensive. Those who are not willing to pay the price ultimately lose everything.

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I'm new to Geocaching & have done only urban cahces so far, but the question & responses have been very thought provoking. For now, now weapons, no pepper spray, just a sense of adventure & a family who make enough noise to scare off any predator and/or fellow geocachers!

 

This may be an issue if we go for more rural caches, so I'm glad for the discussion.

 

Fairy tales & happy trails help old women stay young.

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I wrote some time ago in a thread in the old Geocaching Forums about being attacked by an unleashed dog while my wife and I were going to a cache with our dog. Someone in our GGA group suggested using an expandable baton and gave me a link. I found one at the local army surplus store. You can carry it at any cache, urban or suburbs. I have now used it since Christmas twice with great effectiveness. One time three dogs were coming at us (on a trail that had six signs posted about having your dogs leashed at all times). I waited until they were about 15 - 20 feet away and threw out (extended) the baton and advanced toward them. They all stopped dead in their tracks. One started toward me again and I advance and yelled at the dog to get back swinging and pointing the baton at the dog. It did.

 

I have carried a gun while in the woods because I have hiked alone off trail more times than I can count. They are not practical in an urban environment (and sometimes not legal). The Expandable Baton is a good and impressive defensive alternative that I HIGHLY recommend. I carry it in my front pocket.

botach_1692_21261793

 

I support the Georgia Geocachers Association, or the GGA!

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I am a former Sgt. In the US Army, (2nd BAtt 1st AVN 1st Armor Div.) I am a concealed handgun permitt holder. It is NOT legal for me to carry an expandable baton (go figure). However, I do carry two knives and a Glock 23 everywhere I go.

 

Do you have your "homeland security rifle" (formerly known as "Assault weapon") yet?

 

 

Tango Down!

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Reading some of these posts arguing that it is necessary to carry a handgun while Geocaching leads me to two possible conclusions:

 

1. The United States of America must be the most pathetic, pitiful, country on the face of the planet in which to live and bring up a family -

 

or

 

2. Many gunowners must have sniffed so much burning gunpowder that most of their brain cells have mushified.

 

I have a lot of respect for my southern neighbours, (the U.S.A) so I suspect the latter is the true answer.

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

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quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

Reading some of these posts arguing that it is necessary to carry a handgun while Geocaching leads me to two possible conclusions:

 

1. The United States of America must be the most pathetic, pitiful, country on the face of the planet in which to live and bring up a family -

 

or

 

2. Many gunowners must have sniffed so much burning gunpowder that most of their brain cells have mushified.

 

I have a lot of respect for my southern neighbours, (the U.S.A) so I suspect the latter is the true answer.

 

_You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)_


 

i may be new here but.... seneca... figures you would say something like that being:

A: a lawyer (you have my respect! ..."joke"

B: i feel you don't have the respect you say you do for "your southern neighbors". i would go on but it's not worthy a longer reply. yeah i'm a bit P.O.'d. not laughing, O.K.?

 

still lookin...

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I carry a knife everywhere I go, Its just part of my everyday life. When I go geocaching I sometimes carry a gun. It all depends on where I'm going. Urban settings I skip the gun,if the cach is in a place I do not fell good about going to I just won't go. Now out in the forest I do carry a handgun. If its a legal hunting season small game is a bonus. But there are times when a gun might be needed in the forest. I have had wildogs running in packs come up on me, or found wildbore. Now thats an animal you do not want ticked off at you. Also here in Missouri we have a problem with drug labs in state & national forest. These drug people are the real reason I go out with my H&K UPS40. Just do what you feel you need to do be safe. But don't carry a gun and think you can take on the world. There is more to it than just having one. If you go the gun route get instruction on how & when to use it. Sorry I'll get off my soap box now. Back to how to carry, A SOB holster is my choice, Small Of the Back. icon_cool.gif

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I carry a knife everywhere I go, Its just part of my everyday life. When I go geocaching I sometimes carry a gun. It all depends on where I'm going. Urban settings I skip the gun,if the cach is in a place I do not fell good about going to I just won't go. Now out in the forest I do carry a handgun. If its a legal hunting season small game is a bonus. But there are times when a gun might be needed in the forest. I have had wildogs running in packs come up on me, or found wildbore. Now thats an animal you do not want ticked off at you. Also here in Missouri we have a problem with drug labs in state & national forest. These drug people are the real reason I go out with my H&K UPS40. Just do what you feel you need to do be safe. But don't carry a gun and think you can take on the world. There is more to it than just having one. If you go the gun route get instruction on how & when to use it. Sorry I'll get off my soap box now. Back to how to carry, A SOB holster is my choice, Small Of the Back. icon_cool.gif

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I don't own a hand gun, but I own rifles and shot guns for hunting. If I had a hand gun I may take it with me on cache hunts (when I do some more). But another reason to carry one is to alert others of your location in case you break a leg or something while your out by your-self.

 

Wyatt W.

 

The probability of someone watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your actions.

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When I first started I never carried anything, however before I took my journey across the US a buddy gave me a little pepper spray thing that goes on my keychain. I had it there the whole time and still is on it. With all the hiking I was doing it did give me some reasurance, not so much against people as animals. I figure with a 20ft range I could give an animal a nice burst before it gets close and I have to resort to hands and fists. So even though I'm back home and I don't have to worry about bears, mountain lions, etc (never saw either, largest predators were coyotes and a bobcat) it's still nice to have in case some satan dog or something comes after me.

I've done over 200 caches and have been at it over a year and there has been only one one occasion where I wished I had a gun. I have no doubt I could've taken care of myself if he was unarmed, but if he had a knife or a gun it would've been over. But like I stated in the log I probably should've avoided the area and nothing happened anyway.

In general (I know someone was just murdered at.. I believe the white mountains a little while ago) but in general your much safer in the wild then in the city when it comes to attacks from people.

Now when I was backpacking in grizzly country I bought a cannister of bear spray (glorified pepper spray) and honestly while I was glad I had soemthing I would've felt a whole lot better with a glock.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

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A weapon is a tool "be it a firearm, pepper spray, a stick, or a rock” we all use tools every day. We use our gps to find the cash and maybe some of us still use it to find our way home after we get so lost that your toy saves your life, weapons we used much the same they were fist used to preserve life "a rock over the head of a sabertooth tiger" in short you use your gps to get there.......you use your weapon to get back safe. We all hope we never need this tool because everyone knows the outcome when we do but better them than me. As I site here in front of the computer I am thankful that we can talk openly about this stuff with out fear. I am happy to see so may folks ready to do what it takes to take care of them selves, "makes me feel safer" Sorry I ran a little long and maybe too much politics for a gps page but I am 2 months from leaving for basic training, my father spent 20 years in the army and is a veteran of the gulf war, it's kinda important to me if only for what he and others have done for this country, but that just one of many reasons. It's clear to me from a few of the post that not enough folks understand what the majority of us are talking about. But that is not something we can change tonight or any night their will always be those people around, but that is just the same. All I can say is we few who understand what it means to carry a weapon just in case, to stand by what we believe and not lose another inch. It's like with the fire service "a few protecting the many"

Once again sorry for the politics and thank you to all the vets out their you have all my respect if were not for you the world would be a different place.

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Look people.

 

If you want to carry a gun while geocaching, more power to you. Just remind me which one you're visiting so I can avoid a potential accident. Duh. What if I jumped out of the woods and said "Boo"! Are you gonna shoot me?????

 

Our family has never owned a weapon... EVER! It is asking for trouble. And you let your kids handle them? Wow. How many experienced gun owners that taught their children how to use them lost their lives? My best friend in Colorado had a friend who's son accidentally blew his head off! The kid was 15 and was just cleaning his gun! Guns+Kids=Trouble. Curiosity killed the cat, don't ya know. icon_eek.gif

 

As far as Samantha Runnion, (yes, she has a name) how would a gun have helped her? Read up on the news, bud, nothing would have helped that little girl except maybe her mother watching her play in the front yard. A five year old child is too young to be playing in a FRONT yard with NO SUPERVISION!!!

 

This is not what this country needs is a bunch of gun happy people! Isn't there enough violence these days? Now you people are trying to make geocaching a scarry thing to do. Quit it, will ya?

 

If it's your time to go, then it's your time to go.

 

quote:
Many gunowners must have sniffed so much burning gunpowder that most of their brain cells have mushified.

 

Bullseye, Seneca!

 

quote:
Hmmmmm... never seems to happen to us. Perhaps we are more alert and not easily surprised. Or perhaps we are confident that we can defeat any credible threat, so we do not spook as easily.

 

We are not naive to think that we might be another statistic. We are confident in knowing that guns ask for trouble. No one said we were going to defeat a potential perpetrator either. We go on the trails together and with the 6 of us, we make plenty of noise to scare someone off. icon_wink.gif

 

You can get hit by a bus tomorrow and chances are the gun will not help you then, either.

 

Firm in our beliefs,

 

Candie from

Upinyachit

icon_smile.gif

 

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Look people.

 

If you want to carry a gun while geocaching, more power to you. Just remind me which one you're visiting so I can avoid a potential accident. Duh. What if I jumped out of the woods and said "Boo"! Are you gonna shoot me?????

 

Our family has never owned a weapon... EVER! It is asking for trouble. And you let your kids handle them? Wow. How many experienced gun owners that taught their children how to use them lost their lives? My best friend in Colorado had a friend who's son accidentally blew his head off! The kid was 15 and was just cleaning his gun! Guns+Kids=Trouble. Curiosity killed the cat, don't ya know. icon_eek.gif

 

As far as Samantha Runnion, (yes, she has a name) how would a gun have helped her? Read up on the news, bud, nothing would have helped that little girl except maybe her mother watching her play in the front yard. A five year old child is too young to be playing in a FRONT yard with NO SUPERVISION!!!

 

This is not what this country needs is a bunch of gun happy people! Isn't there enough violence these days? Now you people are trying to make geocaching a scarry thing to do. Quit it, will ya?

 

If it's your time to go, then it's your time to go.

 

quote:
Many gunowners must have sniffed so much burning gunpowder that most of their brain cells have mushified.

 

Bullseye, Seneca!

 

quote:
Hmmmmm... never seems to happen to us. Perhaps we are more alert and not easily surprised. Or perhaps we are confident that we can defeat any credible threat, so we do not spook as easily.

 

We are not naive to think that we might be another statistic. We are confident in knowing that guns ask for trouble. No one said we were going to defeat a potential perpetrator either. We go on the trails together and with the 6 of us, we make plenty of noise to scare someone off. icon_wink.gif

 

You can get hit by a bus tomorrow and chances are the gun will not help you then, either.

 

Firm in our beliefs,

 

Candie from

Upinyachit

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Our feet go where the caches are! feet.gif

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I live in England and was thinking of looking for a few caches in the US next time I was over. After reading this thread I'm having second thoughts.

 

I have never even thought of taking weapons, of any kind, with me whether caching or just hiking. I sometimes use a pole when walking but that is purly to help me keep the use of my knees in years to come.

 

Do you really need to carry this sort of stuff? How do you greet people when hiking? I quite often talk to others I meet but it sounds a bit dangerous over the pond.

 

Kev icon_smile.gif

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I live in England and was thinking of looking for a few caches in the US next time I was over. After reading this thread I'm having second thoughts.

 

I have never even thought of taking weapons, of any kind, with me whether caching or just hiking. I sometimes use a pole when walking but that is purly to help me keep the use of my knees in years to come.

 

Do you really need to carry this sort of stuff? How do you greet people when hiking? I quite often talk to others I meet but it sounds a bit dangerous over the pond.

 

Kev icon_smile.gif

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Boy, we sure kicked over a hornet's nest here. Lets see, where to start.

 

In pure logic, only four possible states of gun ownership in a society are possible:

 

(1) Everybody has a gun.

(2) Nobody has a gun.

(3) Criminals have guns but law-abiding people don't.

(4) Law-abiding people have guns but criminals don't.

 

If you are a liberal, option (2) is probably your ideal; if you are a conservative, you probably prefer option (4). Unfortunately neither option (2) nor option (4) is practically possible in the United States today.

 

Option (2) is not possible because, in the first place, the country is full of guns, which could not be taken from all their owners under any imaginable scheme of confiscation; and because in the second place, guns are not particularly difficult to make in a decently well-equipped home metal-working shop; and because in the third place, guns will be smuggled in, just as drugs and illegal immigrants are. Unless you are willing to contemplate social controls at levels an order of magnitude higher than anything this country has ever known or contemplated, you will not free American society of guns.

 

Option (4) is not possible for the same reason, and an additional one. One thing criminals like to do is steal things. Once in a while a criminal will steal a gun from a law-abiding person, until eventually there is a good supply floating around in the criminal world.

 

(As a sidebar to this, it is interesting to note that of the 150 or so law enforcement officers killed every year in the U.S., one in four is shot

with his own weapon. The moral of that is: If you are defending your self with a gun against someone bigger than yourself, be much less

scrupulous about shooting him than police officers have to be. As we Second Amendment defenders like to say: "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.")

 

The practical choice is, therefore between options (1) and (3). These are the only practical choices. You can attain option (3) by passing laws against gun ownership. Law-abiding people will then, by definition, not own guns. You can attain option (1) by removing restrictions on gun ownership.

 

The United States, via the Second Amendment, has wisely chosen option (1). Britain, the U.S.A.'s cousin nation, has decided to give option (3) a try, and the results of this experiment are coming in.

 

I am reading lots of "FEELINGS" here from the opposition, but not many facts. So let me add some "FACTS".

 

quote:
1. The United States of America must be the most pathetic, pitiful, country on the face of the planet in which to live and bring up a family -


 

Lets look at the other direction. Great Britain. After the Dunblain shooting (schoolyard - multiple kids) ALL guns were banned. ALL. PERIOD. The following are snippets from the Boston Globe, a very anti-gun newspaper. This is one of the oldest - safest societies in the world. Or are they?

 

quote:
Targeting a myth

 

The evidence suggests that gun control has not made England a safer, fairer society. By Joyce Lee Malcolm Column: Crime, 5/26/2002

 

Five centuries of growing civility in England ended in 1954. Violent crime there has been climbing ever since, and armed crime - with banned handguns the weapon of choice - is described as rocketing. Between April and November 2001, the number of people robbed at gunpoint in London rose by 53 percent. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. This sea of change in English crime is indicative of government policies that have gone badly wrong.

 

OR... From the UK (Telegraph)

 

If the state fails us, we must defend ourselves.

By Simon Heffer - (Filed: 24/02/2002)

 

LAST Monday 82-year-old Violetta Vella was found dead in a pool of blood in her flat in Finsbury Park, north London. She had been attacked in her own home, in broad daylight, and repeatedly stabbed in the neck.

 

We have become inured to the daily stories of carjackings, and resigned to the news that street crime in London rose by 39 per cent last year. We all know things have become steadily worse since the 1960s. We might, however, be just about to reach that point where enough is, at last, enough. To say there is an "epidemic" of violent crime is to push understatement to its limits. As this week's incidents show, it strikes across classes. At the root of it is the drugs problem.

 

Most of us had an implicit assumption that there was a contract between law-abiding people and the state. In return for our restraint, the state would use the various means at its disposal to control crime. It would police our society properly. It would severely punish those who attacked us.


 

LOTS MORE... but I will attempt to keep this short.

 

Now, how about Austrailia ???? Most guns banned after the 1996 Brisbain shooting. Are they safer now? Lets see...

 

quote:
Australia: Crime on the rise: ABS (Austrailian Bureau of Statistics) figures

6: 38 PM AEST May 30

 

Doing the Numbers:

 

660,000 guns surrendered todate. (out of 2-3million total?)

 

$400million paid out but the Govt using a 1-time tax increase.

 

In Sydney (largest city - 6million & 50x30kms across) since the ban...

39% increase in armed robbery

26% increase in armed assault

19% increase in gun-related homicide

 

I think what we seeing here is the demographics of where the guns handed in, were from. Outback areas kept their guns, cities didn't and a heres a

thought - the bad guys think that most city folks *did* hand their firearms in, thus leaving a perception of a disarmed city populace... wait another year and see what happens - it won't be a good. It was always easy to have trouble find you in Sydney at night.


 

I live 4 miles (6 KM) from the Mexico border. I see what is happenning there every day. Other than .22, mostly guns are banned there, and any ownership is heavily restricted. In Juarez, hundreds (YES !!!! HUNDREDS) of women have been murdered in the desert over the last 10 years. Execution style murders happen weekly. Where do they get the guns? HOW??? THEY ARE BANED!!!!

 

North of us, in Canada...

 

quote:
Canadian gun registry is a $300 million

massive mess with data accuracy useless to police who refuse to use it... and this is only for 3-5 million gun owners

 

Canadian Gun Registration Has Little Impact on Crime. Daily Policy Digest. http://www.ncpa.org/iss/cri/2002/pd040102f.html


 

Will it soon be Great Britain, Austrailia, and Canada? I hope not, I love Canada. Great memories of Thunder Bay area. If I had to leave the U.S. I believe Canada would be my next choice. And the Canadian soldiers... some of the finest I have served with!

 

Very strong gun control didn't help Germany either. This hit close to home, my wife is German. She also understands the cost of freedom.

 

quote:
We are confident in knowing that guns ask for trouble. No one said we were going to defeat a potential perpetrator either. We go on the trails together and with the 6 of us, we make plenty of noise to scare someone off.

 

Firm in our beliefs,


 

Guns are not trouble... bad people are trouble. Guns just give good people an equal chance.

 

Everyone should firmly believe in something. And I hope you forever go through life as you are now. You are one of the lucky ones, blissfully relying on someone else to do your dirty work for you. May your 911 calls be answered quickly, and may there always be policemen nearby when you need them.

 

This thread has gone WAAAAYY beyond the scope of Geo-Caching, and I won't add any more to it here. I am willing to continue -RATIONAL- discussion directly. And to the ones who have already asked for more info (directly), you will receive a reply shortly.

 

It is a rare day in El Paso... the skies are cloudy, and it is raining. Looks like a GREAT day to go GEOCACHING.

 

Y-all be safe out there, with weapons or without.

 

Mike.

 

My E-mail address: mailto:kd9kc@elp.rr.com

Ham Radio page: http://www.qsl.net/kd9kc/

Gun page: http://home.elp.rr.com/elpasochl/

Dog page: http://www.geocities.com/heartland/estates/4174

 

Member:

National Rifle Association.

Texas State Rifle Association.

Fort Bliss Practical Shooting Club.

United States Practical Shooting Association.

Gun Owners of America.

 

Holder:

Texas Concealed Handgun License.

 

U.S. Army Retired.

 

Freedom is expensive. Those who are not willing to pay the price ultimately lose everything.

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Boy, we sure kicked over a hornet's nest here. Lets see, where to start.

 

In pure logic, only four possible states of gun ownership in a society are possible:

 

(1) Everybody has a gun.

(2) Nobody has a gun.

(3) Criminals have guns but law-abiding people don't.

(4) Law-abiding people have guns but criminals don't.

 

If you are a liberal, option (2) is probably your ideal; if you are a conservative, you probably prefer option (4). Unfortunately neither option (2) nor option (4) is practically possible in the United States today.

 

Option (2) is not possible because, in the first place, the country is full of guns, which could not be taken from all their owners under any imaginable scheme of confiscation; and because in the second place, guns are not particularly difficult to make in a decently well-equipped home metal-working shop; and because in the third place, guns will be smuggled in, just as drugs and illegal immigrants are. Unless you are willing to contemplate social controls at levels an order of magnitude higher than anything this country has ever known or contemplated, you will not free American society of guns.

 

Option (4) is not possible for the same reason, and an additional one. One thing criminals like to do is steal things. Once in a while a criminal will steal a gun from a law-abiding person, until eventually there is a good supply floating around in the criminal world.

 

(As a sidebar to this, it is interesting to note that of the 150 or so law enforcement officers killed every year in the U.S., one in four is shot

with his own weapon. The moral of that is: If you are defending your self with a gun against someone bigger than yourself, be much less

scrupulous about shooting him than police officers have to be. As we Second Amendment defenders like to say: "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.")

 

The practical choice is, therefore between options (1) and (3). These are the only practical choices. You can attain option (3) by passing laws against gun ownership. Law-abiding people will then, by definition, not own guns. You can attain option (1) by removing restrictions on gun ownership.

 

The United States, via the Second Amendment, has wisely chosen option (1). Britain, the U.S.A.'s cousin nation, has decided to give option (3) a try, and the results of this experiment are coming in.

 

I am reading lots of "FEELINGS" here from the opposition, but not many facts. So let me add some "FACTS".

 

quote:
1. The United States of America must be the most pathetic, pitiful, country on the face of the planet in which to live and bring up a family -


 

Lets look at the other direction. Great Britain. After the Dunblain shooting (schoolyard - multiple kids) ALL guns were banned. ALL. PERIOD. The following are snippets from the Boston Globe, a very anti-gun newspaper. This is one of the oldest - safest societies in the world. Or are they?

 

quote:
Targeting a myth

 

The evidence suggests that gun control has not made England a safer, fairer society. By Joyce Lee Malcolm Column: Crime, 5/26/2002

 

Five centuries of growing civility in England ended in 1954. Violent crime there has been climbing ever since, and armed crime - with banned handguns the weapon of choice - is described as rocketing. Between April and November 2001, the number of people robbed at gunpoint in London rose by 53 percent. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. This sea of change in English crime is indicative of government policies that have gone badly wrong.

 

OR... From the UK (Telegraph)

 

If the state fails us, we must defend ourselves.

By Simon Heffer - (Filed: 24/02/2002)

 

LAST Monday 82-year-old Violetta Vella was found dead in a pool of blood in her flat in Finsbury Park, north London. She had been attacked in her own home, in broad daylight, and repeatedly stabbed in the neck.

 

We have become inured to the daily stories of carjackings, and resigned to the news that street crime in London rose by 39 per cent last year. We all know things have become steadily worse since the 1960s. We might, however, be just about to reach that point where enough is, at last, enough. To say there is an "epidemic" of violent crime is to push understatement to its limits. As this week's incidents show, it strikes across classes. At the root of it is the drugs problem.

 

Most of us had an implicit assumption that there was a contract between law-abiding people and the state. In return for our restraint, the state would use the various means at its disposal to control crime. It would police our society properly. It would severely punish those who attacked us.


 

LOTS MORE... but I will attempt to keep this short.

 

Now, how about Austrailia ???? Most guns banned after the 1996 Brisbain shooting. Are they safer now? Lets see...

 

quote:
Australia: Crime on the rise: ABS (Austrailian Bureau of Statistics) figures

6: 38 PM AEST May 30

 

Doing the Numbers:

 

660,000 guns surrendered todate. (out of 2-3million total?)

 

$400million paid out but the Govt using a 1-time tax increase.

 

In Sydney (largest city - 6million & 50x30kms across) since the ban...

39% increase in armed robbery

26% increase in armed assault

19% increase in gun-related homicide

 

I think what we seeing here is the demographics of where the guns handed in, were from. Outback areas kept their guns, cities didn't and a heres a

thought - the bad guys think that most city folks *did* hand their firearms in, thus leaving a perception of a disarmed city populace... wait another year and see what happens - it won't be a good. It was always easy to have trouble find you in Sydney at night.


 

I live 4 miles (6 KM) from the Mexico border. I see what is happenning there every day. Other than .22, mostly guns are banned there, and any ownership is heavily restricted. In Juarez, hundreds (YES !!!! HUNDREDS) of women have been murdered in the desert over the last 10 years. Execution style murders happen weekly. Where do they get the guns? HOW??? THEY ARE BANED!!!!

 

North of us, in Canada...

 

quote:
Canadian gun registry is a $300 million

massive mess with data accuracy useless to police who refuse to use it... and this is only for 3-5 million gun owners

 

Canadian Gun Registration Has Little Impact on Crime. Daily Policy Digest. http://www.ncpa.org/iss/cri/2002/pd040102f.html


 

Will it soon be Great Britain, Austrailia, and Canada? I hope not, I love Canada. Great memories of Thunder Bay area. If I had to leave the U.S. I believe Canada would be my next choice. And the Canadian soldiers... some of the finest I have served with!

 

Very strong gun control didn't help Germany either. This hit close to home, my wife is German. She also understands the cost of freedom.

 

quote:
We are confident in knowing that guns ask for trouble. No one said we were going to defeat a potential perpetrator either. We go on the trails together and with the 6 of us, we make plenty of noise to scare someone off.

 

Firm in our beliefs,


 

Guns are not trouble... bad people are trouble. Guns just give good people an equal chance.

 

Everyone should firmly believe in something. And I hope you forever go through life as you are now. You are one of the lucky ones, blissfully relying on someone else to do your dirty work for you. May your 911 calls be answered quickly, and may there always be policemen nearby when you need them.

 

This thread has gone WAAAAYY beyond the scope of Geo-Caching, and I won't add any more to it here. I am willing to continue -RATIONAL- discussion directly. And to the ones who have already asked for more info (directly), you will receive a reply shortly.

 

It is a rare day in El Paso... the skies are cloudy, and it is raining. Looks like a GREAT day to go GEOCACHING.

 

Y-all be safe out there, with weapons or without.

 

Mike.

 

My E-mail address: mailto:kd9kc@elp.rr.com

Ham Radio page: http://www.qsl.net/kd9kc/

Gun page: http://home.elp.rr.com/elpasochl/

Dog page: http://www.geocities.com/heartland/estates/4174

 

Member:

National Rifle Association.

Texas State Rifle Association.

Fort Bliss Practical Shooting Club.

United States Practical Shooting Association.

Gun Owners of America.

 

Holder:

Texas Concealed Handgun License.

 

U.S. Army Retired.

 

Freedom is expensive. Those who are not willing to pay the price ultimately lose everything.

icon_biggrin.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Icenians:

 

Do you really need to carry this sort of stuff? How do you greet people when hiking? I quite often talk to others I meet but it sounds a bit dangerous over the pond.

 

Kev icon_smile.gif


 

To answer your question NO you really don't need to carry any of this stuff. I'm guessing (and this is just a guess) that most cachers don't carry weapons overhere. And if you asked the people posting who say they carry I doubt that many could reply that they actually HAD to use their weapon. Like I said before I've done 200+ caches in around 40 of the states, I've cached in all regions of our country. I've also hiked just about every national park and have done several day backcountry trips as well. I have NEVER HAD TO USE my pepper spray, a hiking stick, or anything else. And I am guessing that most of the people here have never HAD to use their guns or other weapons either. Basically what it is for people (be it real or imagined) is peace of mind. As I mentioned I would have felt safer with a gun when I backpacked Glacier NP. Did I need one, heck no I didn't even see a grizzly bear. I saw signs; scat, tracks, etc. but no actual bear.

 

I've also met many many people on the trail, in fact during my travels I even stayed with a couple I met on a trail in Washington. They lived in Seattle and and offered me a place to stay and food when I hit Seattle a few days later. And I did mention having one experience that made me a little nervous, but that was at night in a large cities (New Orleans) park (places like that I would avoid at night).

So how do we great people on the trails overhere... the proper way is with guns drawn til you feel at ease with each other icon_biggrin.gif. Seriously though just say "Hi" or "How's it going" or whatever expressions you use over there.

 

If it makes you feel any safer I travelled through every state in this country (except Hawaii and Alaska) living in my truck by myself, backpacking, hiking, siteseeing, checking out grad schools, and geocaching. I spent around 5 months (though it was split) on the road sleeping at truck stops, camp sites, wal-marts, friends houses, a few reststops (though that made me a bit nervous) and people whom I've met on the trail's places. I'm not some huge tough looking guy either. I'm like 5'6" and only weigh in around 140. And I survived without incident. And was only a nervous a handful of times. By in large I found that people were helpful and friendly. So by all means come over and cache!

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

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quote:
Originally posted by Icenians:

 

Do you really need to carry this sort of stuff? How do you greet people when hiking? I quite often talk to others I meet but it sounds a bit dangerous over the pond.

 

Kev icon_smile.gif


 

To answer your question NO you really don't need to carry any of this stuff. I'm guessing (and this is just a guess) that most cachers don't carry weapons overhere. And if you asked the people posting who say they carry I doubt that many could reply that they actually HAD to use their weapon. Like I said before I've done 200+ caches in around 40 of the states, I've cached in all regions of our country. I've also hiked just about every national park and have done several day backcountry trips as well. I have NEVER HAD TO USE my pepper spray, a hiking stick, or anything else. And I am guessing that most of the people here have never HAD to use their guns or other weapons either. Basically what it is for people (be it real or imagined) is peace of mind. As I mentioned I would have felt safer with a gun when I backpacked Glacier NP. Did I need one, heck no I didn't even see a grizzly bear. I saw signs; scat, tracks, etc. but no actual bear.

 

I've also met many many people on the trail, in fact during my travels I even stayed with a couple I met on a trail in Washington. They lived in Seattle and and offered me a place to stay and food when I hit Seattle a few days later. And I did mention having one experience that made me a little nervous, but that was at night in a large cities (New Orleans) park (places like that I would avoid at night).

So how do we great people on the trails overhere... the proper way is with guns drawn til you feel at ease with each other icon_biggrin.gif. Seriously though just say "Hi" or "How's it going" or whatever expressions you use over there.

 

If it makes you feel any safer I travelled through every state in this country (except Hawaii and Alaska) living in my truck by myself, backpacking, hiking, siteseeing, checking out grad schools, and geocaching. I spent around 5 months (though it was split) on the road sleeping at truck stops, camp sites, wal-marts, friends houses, a few reststops (though that made me a bit nervous) and people whom I've met on the trail's places. I'm not some huge tough looking guy either. I'm like 5'6" and only weigh in around 140. And I survived without incident. And was only a nervous a handful of times. By in large I found that people were helpful and friendly. So by all means come over and cache!

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

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Here in Canada, when I exercise my right to bare arms I usually get a sunburn!

 

Seriously, I don't carry a weapon, per se, just my hiking stick and my Leatherman tool. I don't see the need to carry a weapon.

 

In the words of The Arrogant Worms, "Let there be guns"

 

Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

There'd be no more crime, 'cause everybody'd have a gun!

Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

 

Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

We wouldn't need the police no more, 'cause everybody'd have a gun!

(Yeah!)

Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

 

Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun? (had a gun)

Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun? (had a gun)

Nobody'd ever get shot, 'cause everybody'd have a gun! (Makes sense!)

Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

 

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

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I have to agree with Mikechim, had the question been phrased "have you ever had to use a weapon to protect yourself while Geocaching the answer would be different". The only reason I carry anything is because in Florida we have wild pigs who can be very agressive if they are travelling with their young. However I have yet to run into any animal, where if I have the good sense to back off and wait they will leave.

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I own Guns. My wife and I have been licensed to carry for 20 years. My Children have been taught firearms safety at home and from certified instructers since they were strong enough to pull a trigger. I have seven finds and did not have a firearm in my posession for any of them.

Here is a story that appeared in the bulleten of the Nat'l Federation of Republican Assemblies. It seems thatin 1960, 15 years after the end of WWII, Robert Menard, then a commander aboard the USS Constellation, took part in a meeting between U.S. Navy personnel and members of the Japanese Defense Forces. Most of the attendees were WWII Veterans. One American took the opportunity to inquire why, after Pearl Harbour-with the US pacific fleet crippled and the mainland defenses in what must have been obvious disarray- the Japanese had not simply invaided the US West Coast, Menard recalled the response of the Japanese Commander:

"You are right," he conceded. "We did indeed know much about your preparedness. We knew that probably every second home in your country contained firearms. We knew that your country actually had state championships for private citizens shooting military rifles. We are not fools to set foot in such quick sand."

This is just one of the many reasons for the 2'nd Amendment. If it were not for US gun owners sending their personal firearms to England they probably would be ruled by a Furer now not a parliment. All of western Europe Would shurely be the Arian Nation

(Please note American Citizens were not returned their personal firearms)

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Man, you got alot of nerve!

 

quote:
Everyone should firmly believe in something. And I hope you forever go through life as you are now. You are one of the lucky ones, blissfully relying on someone else to do your dirty work for you. May your 911 calls be answered quickly, and may there always be policemen nearby when you need them.

 

What dirty work are you referring too? Their job and not ours????? icon_mad.gif

 

You are not thinking before typing are you? All you are worried about is your statistics! Do you really think you can do better than your local police department? Isn't that what they are for? Don't you think there should be law and order in this country? How about awareness strategies? Being alert with your surroundings. Just plain common sense would help, too. icon_eek.gif

 

To the guy in England. This is a wonderful country and not all of us think that we have to go through life "on guard" with a weapon!

 

You can believe in what you want, KD, but don't criticize the people that do rely on authorities in time of need.

 

They saved my son's life...twice!

 

Candie from

Upinyachit

icon_smile.gif

 

Our feet go where the caches are! feet.gif

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