Icenians

I guess that depends on what your business is. I can think of a few ways of making it a business expense.

If I found out who it was, I'd buy them a beer. Hate the things

In UK If I pay VAT then the person I'm paying it to MUST supply the VAT number and a VAT receipt if requested. They also need to pay the VAT collected to the UK government. So, "Not suppling the VAT number" is not good enough.

Adding a note to the cache page does not stop people searching for a cache or looking suspicous, it's quite frankly a ridiculous and pointless rule. However, my issue was not the rule itself but the claim from a GC reviewer that this is a GAGB rule when it is quite clear that the rule is applied to all cachers within the UK listing caches on GC. It's this kind of stupidity that stops me listing any cache here these days. For a reviewer to claim the rule is GAGB and should be argued on thier site while at the same time strictly applying the same rule is treating us as idiots.

If it is enforced on GC then it's a gc rule. As I'm not a gagb member, therefore not bound by their rules, does that mean I can list a cache on GC ignoring this rule? If the answer is no please don't treat us as idiots.

If you'd taken the trouble to read my post, you'd see that I asked for an example of a power trail. We've established that the poshrule caches are nothing like power trails. But I guess you just want to moan, so you'd rather ignore what I said. I give up! I had taken the trouble to read your post,nand then choose to ignore it. My reply was more in general to the numerous suggestions I should simply ignore the caches or skip every other one as if that was a solution to 500 caches from one cacher.. I'm not going to do the caches because they are not what I enjoy so whether they sit on my map or not, something I simply don't look at, is neither here nor there. I feel that 500 caches that are not particularly good, that of course being subjective, in on area by one cacher is simply greedy and selfish.

I'm really starting to think people simply cannot read on these forums. This is about 500 caches of the same type in a small area. It isn't about me not wanting to walk short distances, long distances, do 1 cahe or 100 caches. I give up!

And yet we must have these endless trails forced upon us it seems.

Eh? How does that allow variety of caches in the area? Whether a cache is PMO or not does not change the facts that the area is saturated with 500 caches that are all similar. I couldn't give a monkeys about what I see on the map or not. It's about the powertrail fans remembering to leave a bit of room for those that don't want to ruin a walk by diving into the hedge every 5 minutes to find yet another filmpot.

But you generally only hear from those that like them. What you are not hearing is those that simply ignore them or complain about them but not to you. So, you get a one sided view of your caches. There is a problem in caching, I'm not sure why it is but it is. If you offer any kind of critisism about a cache you generally get shot down for it. I know of someone who was even threatened with a ban from GC simply for stating in a log that the cache wasn't that great! So, while people can say they enjoyed a cache they cannot indicate that they didn't. That means that people with rubbish caches THINK they have great ones when in reality they have mediocre at best.

The problem with one cacher placing so many of these types of caches is it stops variety. This means that the rest of us have less and less caches to find because greedy powertrail setters have hogged all the ground. I'm sorry Poshrule, but many of us just don't waste our time complaining anymore as you lot simply don't listen. There is nothing wrong with variety in caching and I'm all for that, but 500 caches that are largely the same type of thing in one small area is simply greedy and selfish. It's all well and good folk saying 'ignore the caches you don't like" but as the numbers of these caches climbs ever upwards we are left with less and less caches to do and are slowly driven out of the game.

you mentioned notifying the cache owners affected so I assumed they were not yours. delete the bogUs logs for your caches if you think they are fake and ignore the rest.

One armchair logger could make it much harder to qualify for something like a Resuscitator cache. If you've actually done the work to resuscitate a cache you don't want to find you don't qualify for the challenge because someone claimed a find they never actually achieved. Fair enough I guess. I have no idea what much of that meant but I guess it affects some kind of caching game

Why on earth should it frustrate or irritate you? Especially if they are not even your caches!

It isn't about "old timers" or perfect hides or anything like that. In caching more is most definitely less. The problem isn't when people tell others and introduce them to the game, it's when lots of people read a newspaper or magazine article or hear of it on the television or radio. They go out, they find a cache on their own, they place a few caches on their own, they never pop into the forums and get any tips. They were not INTRODUCED into the game and so we end up with a mass of crap. Of course there was crap back then, there were DNFs as well, caches were muggled, neglected caches, caches in rubbish. We just seem to have ended up with a lot more of them now. It's undeniably harder to find the good caches these day buried amongst the huge amount of ruBbish I'm not saying for a moment that anyone reading this is guilty of placing caches like these, of course we all think our caches are great, but then most people on the forums get to hear about the rubbish. The vast majority of cachers just plod along finding the crud and thinking that is what the game is. They never wonder into the forums. Caching used to be a great way to find places worth visiting. You can still do that it's just a whole lot harder now.

You just got my vote And mine. Publicising the game has pretty much ruined it

I guess the GAGB are like the British Mountaineering Council is to climbers or the British Canoe Union is to canoeing. Both those organisations represent a sport, I'm not saying caching is a sport but you get my drift. Groundspeak run a listing site for caches. Now that might sound like a good thing, I'm a member of both those organisations. I can go out, buy a canoe, pay my fee to the broads authourity and paddle away to my hearts content. No guideline the BCU makes needs affect me. The broads auth control the water and set the rules. I can also pay for BCU membership, get cut price access to the broads and lumped in with that many other rivers without getting separate tickets, and also, ON TOP OF THE BROADS AUTHOURITY rules VOLOUNTARILY abide by the BCU guidelines. In short, in canoeing I can choose, on GC I can't. Apart from taking my caches elsewhere.

Depends who's doing the tickling. Have you seen the committee? I'M JOKING HERE BEFORE ANYONE HAS A GO!!!

Hi TeamFitz, I'll not quote all that To be fair to opencaching.org, they tell you from the start that they follow the GAGB guidelines. Them's the ones the site adopted. I know not of any other. Both Opencaching.com and Terracaching effectively allow anyone to be a reviewer, OK TC the cacher chooses their own reviewers, but the effect is much the same. I don't know if GAGB members cache on garmins site but I guess there are some and they probably have their say but have the same weight as any non member. On TC the cacher gets to choose their own reviewers but still anyone can become a reviewer there simply by sponsoring someone. On Navicache the reviewer is one man and I doubt he knows anything of the GAGB. So, yes it is possible for the GAGB to have influence on the other listing sites but I haven't seen it and certainly not in a way that could be all powerful in the way they are becoming here.

Are they? almost all of my caches are listed elsewhere and one of the complaints I have of the GAGB is that they claim to be independent and represent caching but actually ignore all but the GC site. I sometimes wonder just how much we would hear from them here if there wasn't a UK forum. It's all too cosy here. They don't appear to have engaged with the only UK based listing site at all in the latest consultation. Is that really consultation? Are they really supporting the growth and enjoyment of Geocaching within the UK when they ignore the UK based listing site in their bomb scare rule making? So why don't they? Why don't they give us the facts? How many calls do they get on the hotline? How many landowner complaints do they get? They never tell us this so we have no idea. Hell, if they are getting tons of them even I might be more for them. Stuey, I'm not trying to break them apart, if anything I would imagine more people than ever are looking up their website from all this discussion. I am realistic enough to know they are not going away. But these people stand up and claim to represent us. My beef has always been that they don't. They represent a few cachers. Do you have any figures to support your claim that I'm in the minority? The GAGB have 538 active forum members. I have no idea how that translates into active members but I suspect it's a lot less. When an awful lot of cachers out there have either never heard of the GAGB or simply don't care, then I would question your claim. If we didn't have vocal people in the world we would be saddled with all kinds of laws etc we don't want. People and organisations that want to represent people MUST be prepared to hear the voice of those that do not want it. Should I simply lie on my back and let the GAGB tickle my tummy?

They always said they would, and indeed did (do) have, elections. They are a valid committee. I didn't mean to make my comments make the committee sound unelected these days.

If this is the case, how are they managing to apply the GAGB guidelines? Or does discretion only go one way?

Oh rubbish. The only thing that is different is you lot pile on more rules. The game is exactly the same. We go out and hide boxes of tat, other people come find the tat. It's been that way for a lot longer than the last 10 years. I'm sorry but Great Britain is the big island. Ireland, north or south, is not part of Great Britian and this whole thing was discussed at the time the GAGB was formed. However, the line from me was meant to be a little tongue in cheek on that. I did look, and the thread with the changed description was posted by Wombles who is, as far as I'm aware, the chairman of the GAGB. Your new rule wouldn't have bothered me so much in that it's "your" site so you can apply whatever rules you wish. My gripe is with the GAGB making the rules. The last one SEEMED, I'll type that again in case it gets missed, SEEMED to suggest that the GAGB were now making the GC rules. I assume we are responding to a different person here as I didn't mention Germany. If people listing caches on GC followed GC guidelines then surely you wouldn't have these issues. Landowners who have given permission can hardly be surprised that they have found a cache. As far back as I can remember the permission requirement was always there. I don't have any problem following the published rules of a cache listing site. Well, until someone tells me what the actual caution was for I'll leave this alone. I think that this just highlights the knee jerk reaction all round. The police have stopped and questioned cachers many many times and, as far as we know, only 1 has received a caution for some unknown offence.

With respect, what else did you expect in a thread with this title? Please, stop using the "in their spare time" card. That tired phrase has been pulled out of the hat way to often in these forums. Just because you do something in my name does not mean I have to be grateful. Especially when I didn't ask you to! (I don't mean you personally here ) If they don't have the time then they really shouldn't be doing it. Regardless of payment for these things, if you want to represent a whole hobby in the UK you better make sure you are able to, have the time, and prepared for people disagreeing with you. If you are not ready for those then don't apply for the job.

I'm posting a second response to keep it separate from the reply above. It may sound strange but I don't actually object to the existence of a caching organisation. I have no reason to and, may even join one one day. I have no objection to an organisation that works for, and represents, it's membership. In fact I'd be somewhat disappointed if it didn't do those things. What I do object to is an organisation that is foisted upon all of us. The GAGB may well have honourable intentions but it has a lot of problems. 1. It has far too close ties to GC to remain independent. It has come up with a new guideline and announced it on GC forums. The very act of doing that has made it SEEM as if the GAGB is now making the rules for Groundspeak in the UK. It hasn't announced this on ANY OTHER LISTING SITE despite one of them being UK based and a general follower of GAGB guidelines. 2. It is far too secretive. When my local council elections come about, they publish the votes, not who voted but who got what. When I asked the GAGB for that information it was something of a battle. When my parish council meets they keep minutes so that those of us that elected them can see what they are doing. Where is the GAGB minutes? Where are the minutes or notes from the negotiations with big landowners done in our name? How can we check that what you are doing is in our best interests? 3. Data. We get told many times that the GAGB "See's the phone calls", "deals with the irate landowners" where are the records? How can we gauge the effectiveness of the GAGB if we don't have the information? How many calls are you getting each year? How many irate farmers do you deal with? We don't need addresses but raw numbers would help to see if the GAGB is something to get behind. It's something they should be monitoring internally as well to see if they are doing any good. So, in short, the GAGB are a committee of busy bodies that have achieved very little in the years they have existed, they represent a tiny fraction of cachers, get input from one listing site, and have failed in just about every single one of their stated aims. Hell, they didn't even manage to get the name right!