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Can a Cache puzzle be TOO difficult?


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Hello all!

 

We just had a very successful GeoCacher's get-together in San Diego, and as the organizer, I requested everyone bring a GeoTrinket to be placed in a Memorial cache. I'm pleased to say the locals did themselves proud coughing up some very nice swag. And proceeding to harass me about when the cache will be placed 8-).

Here's the issue: I want people to work for this box. I've got a multi-stage planned, with puzzles in the instructions to get to each stage. HOWEVER, my better third (Nimmie) feels the puzzles I've constructed are too hard. I contend that GeoCachers are an above average group in the first place, and enjoy a challenge. As we've reached an impasse, I've decided to put up a Sample question here. Please give me your thoughts:

 

Is this TOO hard?

 

***************

Your Father's mother's sister's daughter's son's sister's brother's only cousin is Bob, the driver of a school bus. On his first day, he lets 3 kids onto the bus. Then he takes on 6 more at the next stop, 7 at the next, and 14 at the next, followed by a tremendous crash as he runs over and totals your parked blue Mazda Miata.

The children, however, never pause in their 45th rendition of 'The wheels on the Bus go 'round and 'round".

Along with your day job, you're studying to become a lawyer. Should you sue him?

A) My car's ruined! Absolutely!

:angry: For the car, no. For the song - YES!

C) Nope!

 

**************

And yes, there is only ONE correct answer.

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Earl, Ringmaster

The Adams Family Circus

 

Dr._H_Resourcepage.htm

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Ewww. Seems like the father had a kid with his cousin. So the Answer is obviously "C" since they live in West virginia and it's illegal to sue family there.

 

Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.

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Hello! Thank you for your quick responses. I think it's important to fill in some of the extra information you don't know about this cool cache puzzle we've been putting together. It is a multi of about 10 stages, which must be done is a particular order, each sending the unsuspecting cacher to the far corners of San Diego, North County and the surrounding areas. The clues sometimes make them go back & forth long distances. Now, normally I wouldn't think the puzzles are that big a deal either but because of the other "obstacles" planned, I can't help but wonder if it's too much. What is your thought on having a similar puzzle as described between each stage?

 

Dr._H_Resourcepage.htm

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I think we need a diversity of caches like that. Check out my You Sank My Battleship! cache, which also can send a cacher around town through as little as 7 stages or as many as 26 depending on his/her game plan. So, maybe not everyone will do the cache. Buy those that like a change will like it all the more.

 

Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.

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At at recent WSGA meeting I posed the same question. Can a puzzle cache be too hard? I got a variety of answers but it boiled down to this. If you want a large number of finders than make it easier. If you want to make it an interesting challenge and don't mind if only a few people find it then make it as hard as you want.

 

I put out my first puzzle cache three weeks ago and it only has two finders so far. I've had a great time reading the logs and responding to emails asking for help. One thing I plan to do is after a little more time, I'll create some cheat pages on my web site. They will give people the chance to solve the puzzle on their own or skip ahead to any point including the final answer if they want.

 

smile02.gif If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people??

 

icon_geocachingwa.gif

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When I first stated putting out caches, I use to make them large ones. However, they can be a pain to maintain due to the ease of find and the fact that some cachers have taken out the good stuff and not replaced them with items of equal value.

 

Now I tend to hide Micro caches a lot more, and if I want to put out a large cache, I tend to make it a lot harder to find. This way I will have fewer finds, but the people who do find the large cache will be rewarded for their efforts because it's filled with a lot of very good items.

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There are two options as I see it, do or don't do.

 

We over this side of the pond love caches that involve a riddle, puzzle or research to complete.

 

Here are a couple of fun examples to tax the grey matter Cluedo and this one From Enigma to Echelon

 

Stick with it and remember "If you hide it they will come" icon_smile.gif

 

I woke this morning and my boat was not rocking...for one horrid moment I thought I lived in a house!

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quote:
Originally posted by The Adams Family Circus:

Your Father's mother's sister's daughter's son's sister's brother's only cousin is Bob,

 

[...]

 

And yes, there is only ONE correct answer.


 

Are you sure? Are you aware that your father's mother's sister's daughter's son's sister's brother is your second cousin? A first cousin would be a child of your aunt or uncle; that person (let's call him Joe) is the grandson of your great-aunt, which is to say he's your father's cousin's son. And no, you can't say Joe only has one cousin of any kind, because your father is also his cousin: his second cousin once removed. I'm not sure I approve of suing your father over something like this, but it's certainly legal. If second cousins and so on don't count, then nobody descended from your grandmother counts as Joe's cousin, so Bob is also your second cousin and you can choose for yourself whether to sue him.

 

Here's the rule I use: find your (closest) common ancestor. Count the number of generations back to that ancestor from each of you. One less than the greater of the two numbers of generations is what kind of cousins you are (so 3 generations is second cousins. One generation is siblings, rather than "zeroth cousins".) The difference in the two numbers of generations is how far removed you are (so if they're both 3 generations, you're just second cousins. If one is 3 and one is 2, you're second cousins once removed.)

 

Obviously the cases of "first cousin once removed" and "second cousin twice removed" and so on have different names: your first cousin once removed is your aunt, uncle, niece, or nephew. Your second cousin twice removed is one of those four choices with "great-" and/or "grand-" stuck on the front, and so on.

 

If, as brdad said, your father has some closer relationship to Joe, then you do too. One way your father's relationship could be closer to Joe than second cousin once removed (the way brdad mentioned) is for him to be a direct ancestor of Joe's, in which case Joe is either your half-brother or your nephew, and you're either his half-brother or his uncle. In that case, Joe has no cousins (of course, if your father had children with his aunt, you're also Joe's cousin, but I think "uncle" takes precedence.)

 

Another way is for your father to be Joe's aunt or uncle, which would indeed make you Joe's cousin, but there is only one way that could have happened: your grandfather had children with your great-aunt (i.e. with his wife's sister, not impossible and not even illegal.) In that case, forget suing yourself, get money from your appearances on Springer.

 

In any case, we've established three ways Joe could have only one cousin, and in only two of them are you that cousin. So I don't think the question has only one answer unless you stipulate that you meant "and Joe's not your second cousin, so think family tree with not enough forks."

 

warm.gif

 

[This message was edited by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy on February 09, 2003 at 12:19 AM.]

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There's plenty of people out there placing easy caches that don't take any effort, so I say, anyone willing to put forth the effort to create more difficult caches, should do so. My two most difficult caches out now are The 12 Step Program and Scarabaeus, and there will be harder to follow from me. My goal is a puzzle cache in this area that only get's one finder in it's first year out. THAT, to me, is a successfull puzzle cache.

Push the limit! Go for it. Make 'em work for that find.

 

skydiver-sig.gif

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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I agree that there are too many "standard", roadside, way too easy, not much fun caches out there.

 

To me, a good cache is one that challenges my mind a lot and my body just enough. A good cache is one that leaves me with a satisfying sense of accomplishment when I've found it (hopefully without using any cheats). A really good cache is one that I want to rave about to my cacher and non-cacher friends alike. A great cache is one that I'll always remember in fine and fond detail.

 

I like to think that our Earth, Wind & Fire Cache near Crescent City, CA is not only a GREAT cache but possibly the finest multi-cache on this or any other planet: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=9988

 

Also, I feel that modesty and humility are not essential qualities for a geocacher. If you've made "cachemagic", don't be afraid to sound off about it.

 

 

eagle_fly3_cld_md_wht.gif

 

I'm out of my mind right now but you can leave a beep after the message.

 

[This message was edited by Seesthewind and Redwoodmama on February 09, 2003 at 02:19 AM.]

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I think a puzzle can only be too difficult when a team Mensa members can't figure it out.

 

On the other hand, tedious travels back and forth, and the same type of puzzle time after time may be too much and actually become boring. I'd recommend a different type of challenge at each stage. Maybe even alternating challenges from mental to physical or difficulty of hide.

 

CR

 

72057_2000.gif

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Just a few more examples. Here are two caches I have placed, and the comments have all been great:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=38563

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=46724

 

They are hard, and they are meant to be. There are plenty of 1/1 caches around here, and I refuse to add to the drive up collection of caches. I now only place caches with difficulties of greater than 4.

 

-Doc Ott

A day without thermonuclear fusion is like a day without sunshine.

MIGO_logo_animated88x31.gif

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OK, OK. Two people read the puzzle the way I had envisioned. After Reading Warm Fuzzie's Fuzzy detailed breakdown, and going over that line a few times myself, I agreed with Warm - it's ambiguous currently, which doesn't meet my 'only one right answer' criteria.

 

SO: let's amend the first line back to what I had in mind. We can use Warm Fuzzie's Fuzzy Logic to check it. icon_biggrin.gif

 

"Your Father's mother's ONLY daughter's son's sister's brother's ONLY cousin is Bob, the driver of a school bus."

 

NOW let me know. And for the record, each step of the way will be a different sort of puzzle, and (I'm giving this away, I know) the entire theme is following the steps of Dorothy in the The Wizard of Oz.

 

Earl, Ringmaster

The Adams Family Circus

(Now getting a C- in Warm Fuzzie's Fuzzy's Geneology class)

 

Dr._H_Resourcepage.htm

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We enjoy puzzle caches. That said--You mentioned each puzzle waypoint might be sending you many miles across town in a possible criss-cross to multiple corners of SD County. That would probably make it a SD-area cachers ONLY cache, as someone from out of town wouldn't want to spend possibly a whole day (or more?) trying to find all the waypoints for one cache when they could visit as many points of interest with a cache find at each. Just thought we'd throw that into the pot.

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Wander Lost wrote:

quote:
I put out my first puzzle cache three weeks ago and it only has two finders so far.

 

As the second of the two finders, I'll freely admit that the puzzle was a struggle, but I've got a good puzzle-solver support network that helped me past part of it. I'm only slightly disappointed that nobody else has looked for it for the last two weekends.

 

And as the creator of a mildly challenging puzzle cache (that I should a) maintain and :angry: not give such an obvious hint), I've experienced that puzzle caches get less finds than others.

 

In my opinion, the tougher the better, though.

 

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

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quote:
Originally posted by The Adams Family Circus:

"Your Father's mother's ONLY daughter's son's sister's brother's ONLY cousin is Bob, the driver of a school bus."


 

You don't need the first "ONLY." The problem with the first statement was

the first "sister's," which pushed the common ancestor up another level. You can have lots of aunts (who are also your cousin's aunts, with the exception of the one who's his mother) without affecting the answer in any way. The fact that he has only one cousin and that you're his cousin automatically excludes the possibility that you have any siblings or that those other aunts, should they exist, have any children.

 

warm.gif

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But are you sure you've got the "once removed" stuff right? As I understand it:

 

My parent's first cousin -- not my aunt or uncle -- is my first cousin once removed, and my first cousin's child is also my first cousin once removed.

 

My first cousin once removed's child is my first cousin twice removed.

 

My child and my first cousin's child are second cousins.

 

Etc etc etc.

 

Flat_MiGeo_B88.gif

Mein Vater war ein Wandersmann, und ich hab' auch im Blut

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quote:
Originally posted by bigredmed:

Some of the puzzles involving linear equations and counting light fixtures for your coordinates get to be a severe brain cramp and turn me off from the cache.


 

I just set up another cache this week, Iced Tea 24, and was asking myself this very thing. I was wondering about what has now for me become bland -- looking for signposts and counting numbers -- and at the same time wanted to balance a desire for people to go to another waypoint first with a desire not to overshadow the true point of the cache, the parlour trick.

 

Maybe what I should do from now on is figure out a way of impressing people with the puzzle while posting the parking coordinates. icon_biggrin.gif

 

Flip side is that, with Iced Tea 22 an astute cacher can figure out how to forgo the first step required to get the offset ... oops, if you plan on hunting this cache, don't read this. icon_wink.gif

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Well, all of you handily proved my point, to my wife's surprise. Cachers are masochists who enjoy getting challenged and dragged hither and yon. 8-)

The non-puzzle appreciating minority represented a small enough segment that I'm comfortable with my puzzles.

 

here's the cache, and thanks for all your collective input!

 

Off to Find a Wizard: the San Diego Potluck Memorial Cache

 

Dr._H_Resourcepage.htm

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I like puzzle caches. Folks who solved my First Contact cache had a feeling of accomplishment, I believe. I guess I felt that way with your "Wizards" cache as well. I know it was pretty hard for most people, and maybe it's impossible for others, but personally I wish there were harder ones. There are enough plastic boxes under park bushes in the world. Let's do some Mensa caches.

 

Parsa

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Whether or not the puzzle is too hard depends on a couple of factors. First, is the difficulty of the puzzle reflected in the listed cache difficulty? A very difficult puzzle needs to have a higher rating than an easier puzzle. Secondly, the more difficult the puzzle, the fewer achers will hunt it. Is it your goal to only have a few cachers log this cache? Or do you want everyone who attended the event and most others in the area to hunt it and find it? Whether or not the puzzle is too hard depends on your goal for the cache.

 

web-lingbutton.gif

 

[This message was edited by Web-ling on February 26, 2003 at 11:14 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Parsa:

I like puzzle caches. Folks who solved my First Contact cache had a feeling of accomplishment,

Parsa


 

I don't know, I like the caches in the Mts so I get some exercise. A 2 or 3-mile walk feels good.

 

The Wizard cache had me going for weeks and put a lot of miles on the vehicle. I am smart but probably not Mensa material.

 

Check out Yurims new rebus cache, you will like it.

 

What ever happened to the First Contact?

 

PJH

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quote:
Originally posted by Parsa:

I like puzzle caches. Folks who solved my First Contact cache had a feeling of accomplishment,

Parsa


 

I don't know, I like the caches in the Mts so I get some exercise. A 2 or 3-mile walk feels good.

 

The Wizard cache had me going for weeks and put a lot of miles on the vehicle. I am smart but probably not Mensa material.

 

Check out Yurims new rebus cache, you will like it.

 

PJH

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if they were all really hard, i'd have my doubts.

 

if we were required to do them, i'd say don't be ridiculous.

 

since they're optional, i say: BRING IT ON.

 

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

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The only part that would possibly bother me is this...

 

The clues sometimes make them go back & forth long distances.

I really dislike milti-caches that make me run back and forth between the same two spots over and over.

 

Otherwise, hard caches are almost always a topic of conversation at get-togethers!

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it can be, but I don't think this is too hard. The following would make a puzzle that was too hard....

 

UKPMTQKHIWTIDMTOZJIOCNVKKQJNBIEWPXSXOLVAOYNYZGOHRLLLSXXXWXVCXXYCSRRFGBIQRZKJ

 

If you can solve that I'll be really surprised... (you won't solve it, so don't even bother).

 

For my next cache, I plan to have some detailed knowledge of Organic Chemistry Required to solve it...

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If no one finds it, you'll know it was too hard. I think there's enough cachers these days that there isn't a 'right' way to place a cache. Lots of people LOVE the puzzles - the harder the better. Some folks like puzzles but only easy ones. Some foks with tonsof experience don't like puzzle caches at all. That's the great thing about ccaching - there's something for everyone.

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