Should this Virtual be allowed

February 19, 2003

This Virtual (GCD7D6) was denied by the Admins. I was trying to create an Exercise Cache which required the cachers to complete a 1.3 mile exercise path. To verify that they actually completed the path, I was having them count the number of benches along the path and also email me with the names of 5 of the exercise stations along the way.

The reason I didn't put a physical cache here is that there is a main road on one side of the path and a lake on the other. It would be very difficult for cachers to find a physical (micro included) along this path without being spotted so I figured the next best thing would be some kind of verification for doing the path.

I thought this was pretty unique and it called for cachers to get out there and exercise. What does everyone else think? Should this be allowed?

Thank you,

JetSkier

3k · February 19, 2003

Because it was archived we're not going to be able to see the cache page, only you will be able to. Maybe you could cut and paste the contents here.

______________________________________________________________________________________

So far so good, somewhat new owner of a second/new Garmin GPS V 20 plus finds so far with little to no problem. We'll see what happens when there are leaves on the trees again.

3k · February 19, 2003

Oh yeah, and it sounds cool. Was there a reason that they denied it other than they just like to deny Virts (as they do)?

______________________________________________________________________________________

So far so good, somewhat new owner of a second/new Garmin GPS V 20 plus finds so far with little to no problem. We'll see what happens when there are leaves on the trees again.

February 19, 2003

They basically quoted the guidelines. Here's what they said:

***Prior to considering a virtual cache, you must have given consideration to the question “why a regular geocache – perhaps a micro or only a log book - couldn’t be placed there?” If there is a good answer, then it may be a valid virtual cache opportunity. Also, consider making the location a step in a multi-stage cache, with the physical cache placed in an area that is appropriate.***

***A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects. Items that would be in a coffee table book are good examples.***

Counting benches is not a very novel thing. Please consider placing a traditional cache at this location.

NOTE: Do not reply to this archive note. If you have a question please go to the cache page, scroll to the bottom, click on the link on my name and send me an email through my profile page. Please tell me which cache URL it is regarding.

3k · February 19, 2003

I think your cache idea is great and novel. Its different and refreshing.

It really pisses me off the way these decisions are being made without any thought. Its quite obvious that 'someone' wants to put a stop to virtual and locationless caches which just stinks. Wheres the Democracy in that?

On that note I created a virt that was denied becuase of ummm NO GOOD REASON WHAT SO EVER but infact it was a historic spot that could be on a coffee table.

______________________________________________________________________________________

So far so good, somewhat new owner of a second/new Garmin GPS V 20 plus finds so far with little to no problem. We'll see what happens when there are leaves on the trees again.

9.1k · February 19, 2003

Let's see, there's freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom to place a virt...

Sounds like a cool way to introduce someone to an exercise trail. A nicer virtual than one I did recently, that was approved under the new tighter guidelines, but was nothing special at all (not that there was anything wrong with it...)

Note that there is a locationless cache for exercise trails in parks, so be sure and log your trail there, so your hard work doesn't go completely to waste!

And finally, a suggestion on how to comply with the rules. Assume there are 23 benches along your trail. Your cache page gives the coordinates for the beginning of the trail, plus some sort of a clue to find a second set of coordinates at bench number 20 (maybe in a poem... you'll have exercise aplenty by bench number twenty). Put a laminated card on the bottom of the bench at that location, containing the coordinates to a physical cache in another portion of the park that isn't quite so public and heavily traveled. Or use other numbers found along the trail, on signs and so forth, for the same purpose of filling in the coordinates. I've been working on a similar cache using an exercise trail in a park that's too small to safely hold an ammo box, but is near a much larger park.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

If there's no accounting for stupidity, then why do I need to file a tax return?

2.7k · February 19, 2003

I have one just like the one you are working on.

You go down the trail and send me the coordinates.

Its a virtual because the Parks hates GeoCaching, and they even want me to pull this one.

Here is a link to a similar cache:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=10137

Tahosa - Dweller of the Mountain Tops.

1.4k · February 19, 2003

I had one denied that was a historic location that IS in a coffee table book.... don't feel bad. Good luck getting yours approved. It does seem to be a pretty cool idea.

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

1.4k · February 19, 2003

Hey Tahosa.... this is from the cache you mentioned:

According to Larimer County Parks I'm not allowed to post the coordinates for the trail.

How can the park system keep you from posting coordinates... since when does anyone own the copyrights to a lattitude and longitude measurement?

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

1.5k · February 19, 2003

Your cache idea sounds novel, however in my opinion it is too far off, and shouldn't be approved.

If you want people to walk, you could make a multicache...

3k · February 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:
Your cache idea sounds novel, however in my opinion it is too far off, and shouldn't be approved.

If you want people to walk, you could make a multicache...

Well then Mrs. NAZZ you should be hired to approve caches because you obviously have what it takes.

______________________________________________________________________________________

So far so good, somewhat new owner of a second/new Garmin GPS V 20 plus finds so far with little to no problem. We'll see what happens when there are leaves on the trees again.

1.5k · February 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by umc:
Well then Mrs. NAZZ you should be hired to approve caches because you obviously have what it takes.

Are you being serious, umc? I was merely offering up my opinion on the matter.

1.4k · February 19, 2003

People put caches in very urban settings so maybe you could put a hide-a-key under one of the benches, or a trash can etc... I don't really feel comfortable going to caches that are in public view, but for some people it adds to the excitment.

---Real men cache in shorts.

3k · February 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:
Are you being serious, umc? I was merely offering up my opinion on the matter.

No, not really. But I do feel what you mentioned is a form of a guidline for the approvers to go off of.

Seems as of late things have been cranked down for no apparent reason. If there is a problem of work load then get more people approving. Its a simple answer opposed to putting a stop to everything.

______________________________________________________________________________________

So far so good, somewhat new owner of a second/new Garmin GPS V 20 plus finds so far with little to no problem. We'll see what happens when there are leaves on the trees again.

2.6k · February 19, 2003

If it's a multi virtual where you go to each station and maybe answer questions about each spot then I don't see a problem..

If you're thinking they have to exercise at each station then I have a problem with it.

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

7.2k · February 19, 2003

Really and truly, the easy thing to do would be to approve the cache.

Here is one nearby that is basically in as difficult an area but is a microcache.

BIRD Mini #1

The map for the BIRD Mini #1

The map for the cache in question

Of course, you need to zoom in on the maps.

2.5k · February 19, 2003

I wonder if it would have been approved if the benches were coffee tables instead.

1.5k · February 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by mtn-man:
Really and truly, the easy thing to do would be to approve the cache.

Would you also approve my Virtual Dogpark cache, which requires that people visit a local dog park and for logging verification they have to measure and e-mail me the exact dimensions of all the "Curb and Scoop" signs?

February 19, 2003

georgeandmary: I'm not asking them to do the exercise station just give me the names of 5 of them. The reason for that is so someone can't cheat by driving down the main road and counting the benches.

mtn-man: Are you implying that you are going to approve this cache afterall? Btw, I've done the Bird Mini #1 and it's in a residential area with very little traffic. Mine is next to a heavily traveled road.

As for a micro, if I have to I will. The only thing about that is it makes it a quick in and out as opposed to enjoying the trail. I think that if it were a micro, people would try to park as close to the target bench as posible and cross the main road on foot. I'm trying to make things safer by having them park in the designated lot where they don't have to cross a main road.

JetSkier

2.6k · February 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by JetSkier:

As for a micro, if I have to I will. The only thing about that is it makes it a quick in and out as opposed to enjoying the trail.

JetSkier

Well then either hide it better, disguise the container... fake bolts work really well. Or make it a multi micro.

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

7.2k · February 19, 2003

Parking issues are a slam dunk. Where the cache can be accessed through illegal parking I make mine a multi-cache with a luggage tag very near the parking coordinates. Here are several examples:

Fun and Games

Briefcase Full of Blues

Here We Are Going To The Northside

The End of the Line

One is a small soup bowl sized tupperware container, two are ammo boxes, and one is a very large cache that is big enough to hold a briefcase. All four of these start next to the parking area so you are directed to a great place to park and then hit the cache.

24.7k · February 19, 2003

It's not any better than other VC's and not any worse.

Wherever you go there you are.

February 20, 2003

I had the same problem with one of my caches. It's on a 3.5 mile paved multi-purpose trail that would allow for wheelchair accessible caching. Other than the trailheads, there is no public access to the trail so short-cutting is not an option.

I picked an area at the midpoint of the trail where a bridge crosses the river. It's a pretty area, so much so that the local parks district installed benches, a drinking fountain, and a picnic shelter.

I started the cache as a virtual and asked the finder to send me the manufacturers name of the drinking fountain as proof they had been to the area.

The approvers rejected the cache as it wasn't interesting enough. I guess it's my fault we don't have many coffee book worthy scenic vistas in Northeast Ohio, just nice areas to visit with your families.

Anyway, I figured out a way to place a key case at the site but I don't give it much chance of lasting. The trail is busy this time of year and very heavily used in the warm weather months. I'm sure the container will be gone by June.

Now where did I park my car???????

1.6k · February 20, 2003

Okay, I got bored and skipped ahead so someone might have already posted this.

Make it a multi, fill-in-the-blank type of cache. Have them answer a question at each, or every other stage, and find the coords to an offsite physical cache.

Some sample questions:

- how chinups were you able to do: __=x

- What was your peak heartrate: __=Y

etc.

J/K, but you could incorporate a physical if you try hard enough.

CR

February 20, 2003

Based off the original description, it was not a cache - as I see it. It had a purpose of excercise and didn't contain any historic or significant data. Apparently it was an attempt (as stated by the author) to require folks to complete a path.

I believe that folks that go out and do caches are exercising any way. They have to physically walk, jog, run, crawl or whatever to get to caches. Now if the benches mentioned were Civil War era, or it was along a historic route that could have something identified (virtual) on it, there would probably be no problem. Otherwise you could have a 'virtual' cache in most every park, golf course, or bike trail there is. Not every area can be a cache.

Erawan

2.4k · February 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by umc:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:
Your cache idea sounds novel, however in my opinion it is too far off, and shouldn't be approved.

If you want people to walk, you could make a multicache...

Well then Mrs. NAZZ you should be hired to approve caches because you obviously have what it takes.

I hate to admit this, but I agree with Mrs. Nazz on this one. It's an exercise trail, big deal. Doesn't sound like anything interesting to me. Wanna make us exercise? Place an ammo box cache at the top of a mountain. Wanna bring us to an exercise path? Either find somewhere to hide an ammo can or do a multi, or something interesting. Heck, use those fake rock key holders for stages on a multi. Have one or two at the exercise trail, and the final somewhere nearby that is "safe" to house an ammo can.

I'm lost. I've gone to find myself. If I should happen to get back before I return, please ask me to wait.

February 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Nazz:

Would you also approve my Virtual Dogpark cache, which requires that people visit a local dog park and for logging verification they have to measure and e-mail me the exact dimensions of all the "Curb and Scoop" signs?

I think they should actually have to mail you an actual dog doot, after taking a picture of it in situ.

--

Scott Johnson (ScottJ)

20.7k · February 20, 2003

I'm confused.

As is, its not interesting enough. So its not a cache.

If you plant a film canister with a strip of paper in it, it is then a cache.

Which is it, the film canister or the strip of paper that makes it interesting?

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

February 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:
If you plant a film canister with a strip of paper in it, it is then a cache.

Which is it, the film canister or the strip of paper that makes it interesting?

It should be apparent to anyone with your geocaching experience that virtual caches must be held to a higher standard than physical ones. Just why do you think that 75% of the cache listing requirements pertain to virtuals and locationless rather than traditional caches?

Because they require little or no maintenance, and thus little effort on the part of the hider, virtuals could easily fill the database and swamp out traditional caches. In order to prevent every point of interest from becoming a virtual cache and turning this web site into waypoint.org, TPTB have set up restrictions on them. One of those restrictions is that the spot chosen is a compelling one of wide general interest to geocachers.

It's one thing if you want to argue whether or not the virtual cache being discussed here fits the description of "compelling"; it's quite another to completely miss why virtuals should have stricter guidelines. Use your head.

February 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:
I'm confused.

As is, its not interesting enough. So its not a cache.

If you plant a film canister with a strip of paper in it, it is then a cache.

Which is it, the film canister or the strip of paper that makes it interesting?

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

The interesting part is the location. I have been directed to several parks and bike trails here in Florida that I never knew about through Geocaching. Without going to the location, I don't think you can judge whether or not it's interesting. Btw sbell111, why do you have 74 finds logged for the same cache, your own cache?

JetSkier

1.4k · February 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by JetSkier:

Btw sbell111, why do you have 74 finds logged for the same cache, your own cache?

This outta be interesting.

February 20, 2003

quote:
Btw sbell111, why do you have 74 finds logged for the same http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=28947, your own cache?

You know, I have to contribute to going off topic here, but I was curious about this same question myself. Yesterday I clicked on the "Read Most Recent Logs" link and it was filled with logs of sbell111's find of that cache. Weird.

If I had to guess, it looks like the previous owner (??) was deleting your logs, which you thought were legitimate... then you adopted the cache.

Am I close here? I need the scoop.

Pan

Cachito ergo sum. I Geocache, therefore I am.

2.6k · February 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:

Which is it, the film canister or the strip of paper that makes it interesting?

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

If it's hidden well it is. It's all about the hunt. The strip of paper is just to show that i found it.

I couldn't care less about the 'veiw'.

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

1.6k · February 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by JetSkier:
Btw sbell111, why do you have 74 finds logged for the same cache, your own cache?

JetSkier

I think this thread explains sbell111's reasons

6.4k · February 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BruceS:

quote:
Originally posted by JetSkier:
Btw sbell111, why do you have 74 finds logged for the same cache, your own cache?

JetSkier

I think this http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=9290969905&p=1 explains sbell111's reasons

Good call Bruce, you beat me to it!

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

February 20, 2003

quote:
I think this http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=9290969905&p=1 explains sbell111's reasons

Fascinating....

Have their been any updates?

Pan

Cachito ergo sum. I Geocache, therefore I am.

February 20, 2003

suck. I hope SBell got his logs back. Deleting logs over a personal grudge is definitely not how the game is played.

--

Scott Johnson (ScottJ)

4.7k · February 20, 2003

yoiks. i'd prefer it if people liked my caches, but if they don't, i'm big enough to take it. i don't remeber that you had to like the cache to get credit for a find.

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

February 20, 2003

My wife used to watch all the TV soap shows,

Now I can't get her off these dang forums long enough to log a find. Even one that I really found!

I have flouted the wild, I have followed its lure, fearless. familar, alone; yet the wild must win,

and a day will come when I shall be overthrown. By: Robert Service

2.4k · February 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BruceS:

quote:
Originally posted by JetSkier:
Btw sbell111, why do you have 74 finds logged for the same cache, your own cache?

JetSkier

I think this http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=9290969905&p=1 explains sbell111's reasons

Has this been resolved yet? If not, perhaps we could ALL e-mail this user on a DAILY basis to inquire about when he's going to re-instate the find logs.....

I'm lost. I've gone to find myself. If I should happen to get back before I return, please ask me to wait.

February 21, 2003

Looks like he resolved it by posting all those deleted finds to his own cache. I think everyone in that area should boycott the other guys caches! I don't care what kind of a 'tiff' you have with someone, if they find your cache and write in the log book, you have no right to delete their find! My 2 cents worth...

JetSkier

5.7k · February 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by JetSkier:
The reason I didn't put a physical cache here is that there is a main road on one side of the path and a lake on the other. It would be very difficult for cachers to find a physical (micro included) along this path without being spotted...

I have yet to find a place that I couldn't hide a micro in some way. As far as being spotted, that's one of the challenges of that environment. I'll bet you could hide a micro somewhere on each of those stations and nobody would be the wiser, and the challenge for the finder would be to come at a time when they weren't being used.

Also, you can make a multi where you build the coords of a real cache by using information from the signs at each of the stops, which point you to a nearby cache friendly location.

With that being said, I have no problem with your virtual as you describe it either.

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

20.7k · February 21, 2003

I think a few people missed the point of my previous post.

I also have no problem with this virtual. I think it should have been approved and I would go after it if it was in my area.

As Marky mentioned, micros can be hidden 'virtually' anywhere. Perhaps they should also be held to this 'higher standard'. I'm not sure which side of this fence I would fall on, but I would welcome the discussion.

By the way, Kaniksu, what's with the 'Use your head' comment. Is there some reason you went directly to rude?

As for my posts to my own cache, its all been discussed in previous threads. I'm posting my finds on this individual's caches to my own cache using dates that predate its existance. I am trying to maintain my own history in this manner. The reason you saw so many the other day is because I'm moving the logs from my For the Love of the Gamecache to ony of my Praetorian Guardscaches. I am making this move so the history is retained once locationless caches are moved to a different area of the site (also another thread). I chose this particular praetorian guard cache because no one was watching it. I didn't want everone to have to receive emails of these logs. (I inconvenienced some watchers when I initially posted the logs to my LC.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

February 21, 2003

OK, so let me get this straight, a bucket at a random spot in a forest gets automatically approved, because it's a "real" cache. This spot needs not be in any way special, interesting, scenic, historic, or anything else.

However, a virtual has to be "extra special" to merit approval. So, if I want to call attention to an historic site, or statue, fountain or whatever it's got to be "out of the ordinary enough" to log a visit. Just BEING an historic site or statue or whatever isn't interesting enough, it's got to be MORE historic or fancy or whatever than other statues etc. to garner approval.

The usual way to get a denied virtual cache approved, as advanced in this and other threads, is to stick a mini cache in it.

So if my virtual is denied I can make it more interesting by adding a logbook? Any amount of boring or lame is OK if there is an ammo box, but everything else has to be worthy of a coffee table book?

Did I get the point or am I missing somthing?

Swanlakers

20.7k · February 21, 2003

Swanlakers- You appear to have a grasp of it.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

February 21, 2003

Check out the cache "Wave the Flag" by pepperway in Ontario, Canada (waypoint GCD838).

I didn't think that there was any problem with your cache. Then I saw this one (GCD838) and now I definitely question why your virtual cache wasn't approved.

February 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Swanlakers:
Did I get the point or am I missing somthing?

You're missing something. This is Geocaching.com, not Waypoint.org. If you want to post a cache, this is your spot. If you want to post a point of interest, then you're better off at the other site.

Sorry to have come off rude, sbell111. You're an experienced cacher, so I didn't give you much leeway for failing to understand the reasons why virtuals and traditionals are - and should be - treated differently.

As for "Wave the Flag", that's a webcam cache, not a virtual. Whether or not webcam caches are truly caches is a whole other issue.

February 21, 2003

SBell111, I made two long drives to Nashville under cover of "business trips" to hunt a particular cache of yours. As I recall I could tell by the final encrypted clue that it had something to do with an exercise course in a park. Once there I eventually found it behind an exercise station. Believe me, I would not have gone out of my way to just walk the exercise trail and look at the exercise stations if that had been the sole object of the hunt! In other words it would have made a poor cache hunt without the container at the end and all the clever steps along the way.

I think virtual caches have their place, but their place is not where traditional caches could go. Nor should perfectly ordinary objects or locations be virtual caches. As previously stated, that's why there's www.waypoint.org.

There are locations that aren't suited to a traditional cache - like in the middle of a city, where a virtual cache might be just perfect.

As a cache approver if I see a virtual cache like this one I'm not only happy to post it but ready to book my flight to this city just to hunt it. It's that compelling. Please take the time to read that entire cache description and think of how you might emulate that.

On the other hand if I see one that says only "drive to the coords, tell me the date on the plaque" I view it as analogous to a baggy tossed in a ditch from a car window and called a "traditional cache". Both are junk. Unfortunately it's easier to spot the junk virtual cache and ask for an elaboration and explanation before posting than to spot the junk physical cache. Despite that, plenty of traditional caches are archived because the cache post made it plain that as much thought went into them as content went into the baggy - zilch.

~erik~

February 21, 2003

dear erik. once again you have interjected your personal feelings into you job as cache approver.

1. the middle of a city is a fine place to post a traditional cache. it has been done once already, directly in front of the new york public library. i placed a cache in front of a fire house near a very busy main street in a town in nj.

2. if you spent more time trying to spot the lame physical cache your opinion might garner more respect. instead you whine and complain like a little child about virtual caches all the dadgum time. your a broken record. if you think that some physical caches are so bad, how about putting up or shutting up about trying to root them out. spend half the energy on that as you do on "lame" virtual caches.

quote:
Originally posted by ~erik~:
SBell111, I made two long drives to Nashville under cover of "business trips" to hunt a particular cache of yours. As I recall I could tell by the final encrypted clue that it had something to do with an exercise course in a park. Once there I eventually found it behind an exercise station. Believe me, I would not have gone out of my way to just walk the exercise trail and look at the exercise stations if that had been the sole object of the hunt! In other words it would have made a poor cache hunt without the container at the end and all the clever steps along the way.

I think virtual caches have their place, but their place is not where traditional caches could go. Nor should perfectly ordinary objects or locations be virtual caches. As previously stated, that's why there's http://www.waypoint.org.

There are locations that aren't suited to a traditional cache - like in the middle of a city, where a virtual cache might be just perfect.

As a cache approver if I see a virtual cache like http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=27305 I'm not only happy to post it but ready to book my flight to this city just to hunt it. It's that compelling. Please take the time to read that entire cache description and think of how you might emulate that.

On the other hand if I see one that says only "drive to the coords, tell me the date on the plaque" I view it as analogous to a baggy tossed in a ditch from a car window and called a "traditional cache". Both are junk. Unfortunately it's easier to spot the junk virtual cache and ask for an elaboration and explanation before posting than to spot the junk physical cache. Despite that, plenty of traditional caches are archived because the cache post made it plain that as much thought went into them as content went into the baggy - zilch.

~erik~

SR and dboggny.

February 22, 2003

Thank you to everyone who participated in this discussion. I have redone the cache and made it a micro. Here is the new one. I hope everyone enjoys it!

JetSkier

Should this Virtual be allowed

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