How to make geocaching better

[marep]

I've been a geocaching member since November 2003 and placed my first cache over 20 years ago—it's still active today. Back in the early days, I used an iPAQ with a Garmin device, manually downloading geocache lists before each search. Then Android came along with C:geo, making things easier. But when I switched to an iPhone, my geocaching experience hit a dead end.

The official app deliberately restricts access to caches unless you pay for a premium membership. Using the web interface is a frustrating and impractical alternative. So in the end, you're left with two choices: pay up or be locked out.

What makes this even worse is that geocaching wouldn't exist without those of us who hide and maintain caches. We provide the very foundation of the game, yet the system gives us nothing in return. Other platforms, like FlightRadar, recognize the value of active contributors—offering premium memberships to those who provide essential data.

Geocaching should follow suit and reward those who keep the game alive. If you maintain active caches, you should get premium membership as a fair exchange. Right now, it feels like a cash grab at the expense of the community that actually makes geocaching possible.

[+A J Pombo]

I completely agree with what was written here. The ones who keep geocaching alive are the owners who insist on hiding and maintaining caches, many of which have been around for many, many years.

[+barefootjeff]

Okay, I didn't start caching until 2013, but in the twelve years since then I've put out 79 caches, 57 of which are still active, and hosted 3 events. Those caches aren't just pill bottles or MKHs either, most are smalls or regulars with good quality bound logbooks and my themed containers have taken considerable time and expense to put together. But do I begrudge paying for my premium membership? Not at all. HQ have to pay rent, utilities, online services and their employees, etc., none of whom I'd expect would take cache containers in lieu of payment. Even in Australian dollars with our goods and services tax thrown in, it's still less than a cup of coffee a month and an order of magnitude below what my brother pays for his chosen pastime of golf. For the game to survive into the future and keep me amused into my dotage, HQ has to remain a profitable business and that money has to come from somewhere.

[+Goldenwattle]

2 hours ago, marep said:

Geocaching should follow suit and reward those who keep the game alive. If you maintain active caches, you should get premium membership as a fair exchange.

I don't agree. That's not a fair exchange. I agree with barefootjeff's comment, "HQ have to pay rent, utilities, online services and their employees".

How is your suggestion going to pay for that? Fuzzy, warm feelings for putting out caches don't pay the bill.

[marep]

Yes, but GC HQ has other commercial partner programs as well. I don’t know where the majority of their revenue comes from, but it seems like a great business model for them—letting users do all the work while still charging for access. We invest our time, effort, and money into hiding and maintaining caches, which keeps the game running, yet we're expected to pay on top of that.

[+Smitherington]

I started geocaching in 2002.  As I recall it did not cost anything but when a paying option became available I quickly signed up as a Charter member because of the enjoyment that I receive from this activity.  Hobbies involve a cost to the participants and my annual membership fee is minor compared to many hobbies.  If you want premium benefits then pay the membership.  If you are content with the nonpaying membership, that is fine too.  I'm loving it the way it is.

[+niraD]

5 hours ago, marep said:

Geocaching should follow suit and reward those who keep the game alive. If you maintain active caches, you should get premium membership as a fair exchange.

One of the things I appreciate about Groundspeak is that they generally avoid creating benefits for hiding caches, other than the desire to own and maintain a cache. For example, challenge caches cannot be based on anything related to cache ownership.

 

Can you imagine the junk caches that would be listed if cache ownership was a ticket to free premium membership?

[+arisoft]

5 hours ago, marep said:

Then Android came along, making things easier. But when I switched to an iPhone, my geocaching experience hit a dead end.

 

I see that your main argument is a bad phone selection.

 

If you can get a good phone for free (not impossible task I think) you can pair your bad phone with the free good phone by Wi-Fi tethering and use your favourite App absolutely free in the good phone.

Edited March 7 by arisoft

[+Goldenwattle]

2 hours ago, marep said:

Yes, but GC HQ has other commercial partner programs as well. I don’t know where the majority of their revenue comes from, but it seems like a great business model for them—letting users do all the work while still charging for access. We invest our time, effort, and money into hiding and maintaining caches, which keeps the game running, yet we're expected to pay on top of that.

I'm not complaining. I choose to support them.

[+kunarion]

7 hours ago, marep said:

The official app deliberately restricts access to caches unless you pay for a premium membership. Using the web interface is a frustrating and impractical alternative.

 

The Apps (Geocaching.com maintains support for Android and IOS) are an additional expense, and designed for persons who wish to pay for the convenience.  I would not mind if the company were to eliminate in-house "Apps" and focus on web support, likely many others would, too.  Then my Premium Membership would go into features that I use most.

 

The web site has great features for free, ideal for a Garmin GPS.  Are you in need of help with using the web site?

 

Edited March 7 by kunarion

[+Rustynails]

Most of my caching is done with a Garmin GPS. No cell signal worries or dead battery. I can explore remote areas and always have a signal. 

[+Goldenwattle]

55 minutes ago, Rustynails said:

Garmin GPS

Same for me.

[+CAVinoGal]

8 hours ago, marep said:

I used an iPAQ with a Garmin device, manually downloading geocache lists before each search. ...

 

The official app deliberately restricts access to caches unless you pay for a premium membership. Using the web interface is a frustrating and impractical alternative. So in the end, you're left with two choices: pay up or be locked out...

 

If you maintain active caches, you should get premium membership as a fair exchange.

 

3 hours ago, niraD said:

Can you imagine the junk caches that would be listed if cache ownership was a ticket to free premium membership?

 

How many caches would one need to hide each year and "maintain" to qualify for the free premium membership?  And how would you define "maintain"?  Would a reviewer archival of one of your caches cancel the free membership?  Logistically managing this would be no fun!  I CAN imagine the junk caches that would be listed (we already have enough of those without offering a premium membership for hiding!), and I don't like what I see!!

 

$30 (or $40 for those joining now) a YEAR is well worth it to me for the full app and website benefits allowing me to enjoy this hobby.  I, too, CHOOSE to spend my money to help support the crew at HQ.  I chose to spend more than that to support one event, a one time experience (GeoWoodstock), and nearly that to support our local geocaching "club" each year.  

 

In the end, you choose whether to pay for premium or not.  The website interface for basic members and a GPS gives you plenty of caches and cache types to search for.  All you are "locked out" of is the caches that owners have chosen to list as "premium".  Yes, the apps are more limited.  There are ways if you are that determined NOT to pay for premium.  For me, it's worth it.  YMMV

[+kunarion]

2 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

How many caches would one need to hide each year and "maintain" to qualify for the free premium membership?  And how would you define "maintain"?  Would a reviewer archival of one of your caches cancel the free membership?

 

Maybe this Special Premium Membership would have new cache hide requirements.  However many it takes to meet the quota, each cache may have a monthly in-person repair requirement, need to have unique scenery, quality containers, dry logs, writing utensils, and of course be filled with excellent Swag.  All kinds of things to count as a paying Geocache.  Obviously, these are to be examples of cache perfection.  It's a $40 benefit, so it must be $40 worth to the company.  And the $40 is the max credit, you can't "earn" more.  Maybe it would be a company credit to be used as you see fit.

 

The credit could be earned the previous year, paid out at 12 months of maintaining the quota of Special Premium Membership caches.

 

I would hope that I can opt out.  What if working for a $40 payment is taxable?  I may not want to fill out new income tax forms just because I placed caches.  As it stands, I save up for the rather inexpensive Premium Membership, and haven't missed a year yet.

 

Edited March 7 by kunarion

[+barefootjeff]

 

 

5 hours ago, kunarion said:

However many it takes to meet the quota, each cache may have a monthly in-person repair requirement, need to have unique scenery, quality containers, dry logs, writing utensils, and of course be filled with excellent Swag.

 

Perhaps something like this would qualify:

 

 

 

Except for the monthly repairs, I guess, as the only repair it's needed was soon after publication in January 2022 when the first waypoint suffered an adhesive failure, so I redid it a different way and it's all been fine since. All up, the materials and tools needed to put this multi together cost me well over $100, with the local hardware store doing quite well out of it.

 

But most players don't want caches like this, they want trails of roadside pill bottles where they can rack up lots of smileys without having to go more than a few paces from their car. That's where the money is for HQ, both in premium memberships and advertising revenue from website views. In its three years, my multi has had just 13 finds, the most recent in October 2023, so it's not much of a revenue-raiser for them. The same is true for most of my other caches. Maybe I should be paying them extra for all the rarely-visited website space I'm using.

 

[+kunarion]

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

But most players don't want caches like this, they want trails of roadside pill bottles where they can rack up lots of smileys without having to go more than a few paces from their car. That's where the money is for HQ, both in premium memberships and advertising revenue from website views. In its three years, my multi has had just 13 finds, the most recent in October 2023, so it's not much of a revenue-raiser for them. The same is true for most of my other caches. Maybe I should be paying them extra for all the rarely-visited website space I'm using.

 

 

So it could be more like what niraD said.  Handful of pill bottles under some bushes, done!  Gimme my free Premium Membership!  The maintenance plan would be the usual maintenance plan for those things.  None at all.

 

And that would certainly encourage a lot more Micro spew.  Yay?

 

Edited March 8 by kunarion

[+niraD]

8 hours ago, kunarion said:

However many it takes to meet the quota, each cache may have a monthly in-person repair requirement

One of the things I learned from trying to keep my first hide going is that it is better to hide a cache that doesn't need monthly in-person repairs, than to perform monthly in-person repairs on a cache that needs them.

[+Goldenwattle]

3 hours ago, niraD said:

I learned from trying to keep my first hide

I learned never to place a nano cache again. After the third time it went missing I archived it and wasn't sorry to do so. By then I had learnt that nano caches are usually a lazy copout (with a very few exceptions) to placing a better cache, and that's why I didn't miss that cache. I suspect birds were responsible for the nanos going missing. I hope none swallowed the nano. Something to consider re wildlife. Nanos are swallowable. I also had a micro cache attached to a plastic cockroach, which you grabbed to retrieve the bison tube. That went missing soon after placement too. Again I suspect a bird. I try to place a small sized cache or bigger if possible. Only if after lots of consideration and I can't find a hide for a small, do I place a micro sized cache; now never a nano. Too often I come upon a nano where a small could have been hidden.

[+Mausebiber]

6 hours ago, niraD said:

One of the things I learned from trying to keep my first hide going is that it is better to hide a cache that doesn't need monthly in-person repairs, than to perform monthly in-person repairs on a cache that needs them.

 

Have not visited my cache for the last two years, and this was one of the latest logs:

 

Quote

I've had this cache on my list for ages. Today we were visiting HD and were looking for a nice place to visit and found it with this cache. We met a Heidelberg resident who didn't know this place herself. A real insider tip next to the castle and co. We were very surprised by the wonderfully maintained cache 🤩 Even the logbook is from 2008! Amazing

 

[+kunarion]

9 hours ago, niraD said:

One of the things I learned from trying to keep my first hide going is that it is better to hide a cache that doesn't need monthly in-person repairs, than to perform monthly in-person repairs on a cache that needs them.

 

Then you're gonna hate the new requirements.  As it applies to this thread, there would be special rules for Free PM caches.  And the Gimme Free Stuff people will not be happy either.  It's gonna be great.

[+Bear and Ragged]

10 hours ago, niraD said:

One of the things I learned from trying to keep my first hide going is that it is better to hide a cache that doesn't need monthly in-person repairs, than to perform monthly in-person repairs on a cache that needs them.

 

And how many will perform 'Keyboard Maintenance' rather than actual maintenance?

 

Bear and Ragged performed Owner Maintenance.

 

There you go. This months 'maintenance' performed while posting on the forums.

[+JL_HSTRE]

Some of the Virtual Rewards qualifications have clearly been aimed at rewarding good COs.

 

Rather than giving outstanding COs a discount on PM, there are other ways they might be rewarded, either publicly or discreetly.They are probably also given more slack by their Reviewers - not exemptions but trust. 

 

Being a good CO also gives you social credit in the geocaching community (word gets around who the really good and really bad COs are), and sets an example for other potential hiders.

[+Sottiwotti]

I don't cache that often, but my membership is definitely worth the money. So many great features I really can't imagine not having. Even if all these features were free, I would still support them.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

I have no problems with the way things are and have always loved the game for over 20 years traveling the country. I have hid 486 caches which have 2,648 favorite points.

Other than ditching nano's ,or at least giving them their own category so i can ignore them,   I would not change a thing other than be 20 years younger.

[+cerberus1]

Since we started, I've loaded caches manually to a GPSr.  The other 2/3rds did PQs and other options to load caches also to a GPSr.

She also used her phone, a blackberry, as early as '05 or 6, using a Trimble app.  IIRC, that was a pain in the can...

Using a phone takes a bit more on Groundspeak's end to keep everybody running.  I'd expect that to be a bit more in cost as well.

I especially like the idea that since no investment is required to join the hobby for phone users, the D/T and cache types are limited in basic.

I've been ticked at times (once when "newest in..." was removed from our profile) and held back payments a few times.  

Know what?  My caching didn't change one bit.  Using the site and a GPSr is easy really, and all we missed out on were PMO hides.

I don't do them anyway...    We started out getting PM so the other 2/3rds could run in the woods in her PJs at night for FTFs.

She doesn't cache much (still into coins), so PM is pretty-much to help the site going and still allow basic members to play for free.

[+GeoElmo6000]

On 3/11/2025 at 2:58 PM, cerberus1 said:

I especially like the idea that since no investment is required to join the hobby for phone users, the D/T and cache types are limited in basic.

 

I completely disagree with you.  If basic caches are available to basic members on the website, they should be available to basic members on the geocaching app as well.  Using the geocaching app (or other partner apps), the basic member is told that anything outside of events and non 2/2 (or below) traditionals require premium membership, which is not true.  

[+kunarion]

35 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

If basic caches are available to basic members on the website, they should be available to basic members on the geocaching app as well. 

 

They are.

[+GeoElmo6000]

39 minutes ago, kunarion said:

 

They are.

 

They aren't.  Basic level members do not have access to the same caches using the geocaching app as they do using the website.

 

I made this little diagram of how the website and app differ for basic members vs. premium members.

 

[+Bear and Ragged]

Needs 3 stages on the app.

 

1. Free. Limited number of caches. Low D/T

 

2. Pay. All caches, all D/T excluding PMO caches.

 

3. Pay. All caches, all D/T including PMO caches.

[+kunarion]

37 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

 

They aren't.  Basic level members do not have access to the same caches using the geocaching app as they do using the website.

 

I made this little diagram of how the website and app differ for basic members vs. premium members.

 

 

Your suggestion of a free App with identical access as the web site will RUIN things for many thousands of users, over an issue that doesn't even affect you as a PM.  Are you sure you need to do this?  I've explained many times why Geocaching.com did things the way they did, why it's special, and why they shouldn't change it.  Explained to deaf ears, by the way.

 

Geocaching.com obviously put a lot of thought into the way the App is set up.  It's great the way it is.

 

Edited March 14 by kunarion

[+GeoElmo6000]

16 minutes ago, kunarion said:

Your suggestion of a free App with identical access as the web site will RUIN things for many thousands of users

 

The sky won't fall if basic members have access to basic level caches on the app.  And if CO's are concerned about basic members ruining geocaching, they can make their caches PMO.

 

The geocaching app is the only app I've encountered that makes users pay more for features they have access to on their website.

 

@Bear and Ragged had a nice suggestion of a third payment tier, though I'd prefer to see equal access for app and website users.

 

At some point we were all new geocachers, we may have had mentors from the start or we may have figured it out on our own over time, but geocaching has been going strong for 25 years despite new cachers showing up on the scene.

[+baer2006]

1 hour ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

At some point we were all new geocachers, we may have had mentors from the start or we may have figured it out on our own over time, but geocaching has been going strong for 25 years despite new cachers showing up on the scene.

It's still a difference. Nowadays, all a smartphone kid has to do is download the app, and they can start without having the slightest clue whatsoever what geocaching is all about. They often don't even know about cache types (how should they), and not all people might be bright enough to realize that this cache symbol in the middle of private property, a lake or a freeway(!) does not say that there is something to find. So the limit to traditionals is in my view a good thing. The D2/T2 limit might be a bit low, but I understand the idea behind that as well.

[+kunarion]

2 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

The sky won't fall if basic members have access to basic level caches on the app.  And if CO's are concerned about basic members ruining geocaching, they can make their caches PMO.

 

Your idea will RUIN the situation for thousands of BASIC members (not COs in particular).  The sky won't fall, but a cool feature will be irretrievably lost.  Your idea is terrible, and putting words into my mouth is terrible.  I absolutely did not say that the issue was that Basic members ruin Geocaching.  

[+GeoElmo6000]

1 hour ago, baer2006 said:

The D2/T2 limit might be a bit low, but I understand the idea behind that as well

 

If they unlocked the full capability after a certain number of finds, that would be reasonable.  However, that's not the case, and the message that's being given is that basic level caches (outside of T2/D2 and below plus events) need to be unlocked with premium membership, when these aren't PMO caches and are accessible for free on the website.

 

1 hour ago, kunarion said:

Your idea will RUIN the situation for thousands of BASIC members (not COs in particular).  The sky won't fall, but a cool feature will be irretrievably lost.  Your idea is terrible, and putting words into my mouth is terrible.  I absolutely did not say that the issue was that Basic members ruin Geocaching.

 

If I put words in your mouth, I did not mean to, I must have misunderstood you.  I don't understand:

a) how allowing basic level members to access the same caches on their apps as they can on the website would "RUIN the situation for thousands of BASIC members"

or

b) what "cool feature will be irretrievably lost"

Would you care to explain both of those so I understand? 

As I just responded to with baer2006, I believe having this feature for beginners is reasonable, but why not let experienced basic member cachers have access to all the basic level caches? 

[+kunarion]

3 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

If I put words in your mouth, I did not mean to, I must have misunderstood you.  I don't understand:

a) how allowing basic level members to access the same caches on their apps as they can on the website would "RUIN the situation for thousands of BASIC members"

or

b) what "cool feature will be irretrievably lost"

Would you care to explain both of those so I understand? 

As I just responded to with baer2006, I believe having this feature for beginners is reasonable, but why not let experienced basic member cachers have access to all the basic level caches? 

 

Do you have a deadline for the suggestion's implementation?  If not, I can repeat why the current way the App works is elegant, and why it would be a shame to change it.  I've posted it several times already.

 

Edited March 14 by kunarion

[+GeoElmo6000]

2 hours ago, kunarion said:

 

Do you have a deadline for the suggestion's implementation?  If not, I can repeat why the current way the App works is elegant, and why it would be a shame to change it.  I've posted it several times already.

 

 

I'm just asking you to answer my questions.  See below.

 

5 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

If I put words in your mouth, I did not mean to, I must have misunderstood you.  I don't understand:

a) how allowing basic level members to access the same caches on their apps as they can on the website would "RUIN the situation for thousands of BASIC members"

or

b) what "cool feature will be irretrievably lost"

Would you care to explain both of those so I understand? 

As I just responded to with baer2006, I believe having this feature for beginners is reasonable, but why not let experienced basic member cachers have access to all the basic level caches? 

 

 

[+cerberus1]

On 3/14/2025 at 7:42 AM, GeoElmo6000 said:

I completely disagree with you.  If basic caches are available to basic members on the website, they should be available to basic members on the geocaching app as well.  Using the geocaching app (or other partner apps), the basic member is told that anything outside of events and non 2/2 (or below) traditionals require premium membership, which is not true.  

Years ago, we had to purchase (invest in...) a handheld GPSr just to enter this hobby. Everyone logged into the site to play.

It worked similar as today, PQs n such were unavailable to basic, playing for free members. You wanted the extra goodies, you paid up.

Today, any kid with a sorta-smart phone can find caches, never logging into the website.  Who are they?  No one knows...

There's one heck of a lotta profiles that say never as the last time visited.  You've probably seen a few yourself.

The website and the app aren't the same.  The app wasn't created to replace the site.

You can do 'other' caches on the app as basic by adding a waypoint.  Directions used to be in Help Center. 

I'd prefer that some weekend n done kid installing an app he got from another has limited access, thanks....

 

[+GeoElmo6000]

17 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

I'd prefer that some weekend n done kid installing an app he got from another has limited access, thanks....

 

If you read my other comments, I said that it was reasonable for the geocaching app to start off with these limitations.  But why shouldn't it unlock for those experienced in finding geocaches?  If my account goes from premium membership to basic membership for some reason, with over 10 years of experience, 1500 finds, and over 100 hidden caches, why shouldn't I be able to see all caches using the geocaching app that I can on the website?

[+kunarion]

1 hour ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

 

If you read my other comments, I said that it was reasonable for the geocaching app to start off with these limitations.  But why shouldn't it unlock for those experienced in finding geocaches?  If my account goes from premium membership to basic membership for some reason, with over 10 years of experience, 1500 finds, and over 100 hidden caches, why shouldn't I be able to see all caches using the geocaching app that I can on the website?

 

Why shouldn't you use the web site?  It's free with fewer limitations for free, enjoy.  Maybe don't rock the boat.

 

And what value is it to me to pay for your free perks when you're a non-paying member?

 

Edited March 16 by kunarion

[+GeoElmo6000]

3 hours ago, kunarion said:

Why shouldn't you use the web site?

 

Why shouldn't I be able to use the app in the case I stated?  In any case @kunarion, you still haven't answered my questions.  I'm curious what your opinion on these two questions are.  

 

On 3/14/2025 at 1:53 PM, GeoElmo6000 said:

I don't understand:

a) how allowing basic level members to access the same caches on their apps as they can on the website would "RUIN the situation for thousands of BASIC members"

or

b) what "cool feature will be irretrievably lost"

Would you care to explain both of those so I understand? 

As I just responded to with baer2006, I believe having this feature for beginners is reasonable, but why not let experienced basic member cachers have access to all the basic level caches? 

 

 

 

[+x7Kevin]

On 3/7/2025 at 2:21 AM, marep said:

Right now, it feels like a cash grab at the expense of the community that actually makes geocaching possible.

I don’t feel like that at all. I feel like the work I put into placing caches doesn’t come close to the work of the nearly 100 people who work full-time to make everything possible. 
 

There’s free alternative caching platforms around. I signed up to one a while ago and there was only one cache near me that hasn’t been found in five years.  If it wasn’t for the marketing and infrastructure from HQ I feel like the game would be 1% of what it is right now. 
 

I also don’t want to be rewarded financially for caching. I never want it to feel like a job or something that I have to do, I want it to be a fun hobby. 

[+kunarion]

On 3/14/2025 at 10:06 AM, GeoElmo6000 said:

The sky won't fall if basic members have access to basic level caches on the app.  And if CO's are concerned about basic members ruining geocaching, they can make their caches PMO.

 

So “Concerned” Cache Owners then pay for Premium, and Basic cachers lose access to the cache.

 

Because in that scenario, "CO's who are concerned" who are also Basic members must pay for PM to make their cache PMO. Just to give features to a subset of cachers at a small point between “New “ and “PM”, many who cache just fine until this thread's “idea” is implemented.

 

Basic members who were previously able to see the cache within the App at its most basic Free level before that cache was made PMO, lose their easy access to the listing.

 

“The Sky Won't Fall” is no way to make a decision. You must decide if the change is worthwhile. It's not necessarily a good idea just because you suppose that the entire system won't be destroyed.

 

Edited March 18 by kunarion

[+kunarion]

On 3/14/2025 at 9:15 AM, Bear and Ragged said:

Needs 3 stages on the app.

 

1. Free. Limited number of caches. Low D/T

 

2. Pay. All caches, all D/T excluding PMO caches.

 

3. Pay. All caches, all D/T including PMO caches.

 

#2 is what 3rd-Party Apps do.  And those tend to be one-time pay.  Maybe Geocaching.com leaves Tier 2 available to make room for 3rd-Party Apps.  It's all a business decision for sure.

[+kunarion]

On 3/7/2025 at 2:21 AM, marep said:

Geocaching should follow suit and reward those who keep the game alive. If you maintain active caches, you should get premium membership as a fair exchange. Right now, it feels like a cash grab at the expense of the community that actually makes geocaching possible.

 

That's exactly the complaint we see on every Online Gaming App.  Not just Geocaching.  People down-vote Apps in the Shops because "I play this all the time, why should I pay to do so!"  The reason is because that's how this works.  Someone makes an App and they offer full online perks to those who pay.  I play several game Apps offline and have paid nothing for years.  There are overhead costs just to host them online.  The complaint and low ratings are totally unfair.  A bunch of those Gaming Apps are a "cash grab", people pay thousands to play, yet the problem is $40 for full Geocaching access?

 

The Sky Won't Fall if you have a budget and save up for the meager Premium Membership.  

 

Edited March 18 by kunarion

[+GeoElmo6000]

3 hours ago, kunarion said:

 

So “Concerned” Cache Owners then pay for Premium, and Basic cachers lose access to the cache.

 

Because in that scenario, "CO's who are concerned" who are also Basic members must pay for PM to make their cache PMO. Just to give features to a subset of cachers at a small point between “New “ and “PM”, many who cache just fine until this thread's “idea” is implemented.

 

Basic members who were previously able to see the cache within the App at its most basic Free level before that cache was made PMO, lose their easy access to the listing.

 

“The Sky Won't Fall” is no way to make a decision. You must decide if the change is worthwhile. It's not necessarily a good idea just because you suppose that the entire system won't be destroyed.

 

 

Thank you for responding.

 

My issue is that geocaching HQ allows basic members to get all non-premium caches for free via the website, but when they try to access one via the app outside of the traditional 2/2 & events, they are told they need premium membership to access them.  Which isn't true, they can access those caches for free via the website, but the message the app gives doesn't say that.

 

I made a video on my channel a couple of years ago explaining how basic members can access the website via their phones to access all the non-PMO caches.  Logging into geocaching.com through the phone browser.  Copying the coordinates to a map app like Google Maps.  Logging through the browser.  I'm against using any data scraping apps to access caches to get around an API, but what the video explains is how to get the data they are entitled to from the website on their phones.  It's one of my most watched and liked videos.

 

I don't believe that there will be a rush to make basic-member caches into PMO caches if the app allows basic member app users to access all non-PMO caches.  The only concern I've seen over app using geocachers (and also young geocachers) are here in the forums, aka the land of "the sky is falling!".  

 

I'm always happy to have a new geocacher find one of my caches.  I don't have many active right now, but I've had lots of low D/T traditional caches and it's great to see a log that says "this was my first cache, so fun!".  Or even a DNF from a new cacher.  I'll send a welcome message to them via the message center, and for DNF logs I'll give them some tips and be open for questions.  I enjoy being a mentor to others.

[+kunarion]

1 hour ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

My issue is that geocaching HQ allows basic members to get all non-premium caches for free via the website, but when they try to access one via the app outside of the traditional 2/2 & events, they are told they need premium membership to access them.  Which isn't true, they can access those caches for free via the website, but the message the app gives doesn't say that.

 

There are threads around here that mention how the App makes it seem like you need to pay to Geocache.  People arrive in the Forum, surprised that they don't need to pay.  So evidently it's confusing, but this is Geocaching.com's playpen, there's much more weirdness than just App payment popups, but it is their App, and maybe paying for membership creates more new members than it confuses.  But that's not what this thread is about.

Edited March 18 by kunarion

[+kunarion]

On 3/16/2025 at 3:16 PM, GeoElmo6000 said:

Why shouldn't I be able to use the app in the case I stated?  In any case @kunarion, you still haven't answered my questions.  I'm curious what your opinion on these two questions are. 

 

You're gonna need to modify your membership diagram! Are you ready for this?

 

The answer to why doesn't the App do what the web site does is: It was a carefully thought out decision to make the App available for finding your first Geocache after just now installing the App, no obligation at all. No “Email Verification” either. That is key, because since anyone can use the App freely, Bots (especially Bots) or people who were banned can use it too, without even the slightest “verification”. So the features must be restricted to the ability to just “go hunt your first easy cache”. Once they get Verified, it's different. Now they can use the web site, and find any and all Basic caches using The App! Yay!

 

I would suggest that from a business standpoint, App installation is a great time for The App to not-so-gently ask you to pay for membership. Online Game Apps do this, too. They are all “Free”, they all have gem packs for sale immediately, and pop up more constantly, after you pay. They proudly insist their App is FREE TO PLAY. Let me know when you convince any of them to stop doing that. You're not just picking on Geocaching.com, right?!

 

Different software does different things, they are specialized. You may not have every feature on everything else.

 

3rd-party Geocaching Apps can open any Basic cache. Use one of those, done. Those are of course also not free. And, remember this is key: You need to Verify before you can access the cache info.  Only The Official App allows access before Verification.  It would be a shame to lose that cool feature. 

 

For one thing, The Official App can be used by Geocaching 101 attendees to hunt some temporary caches, without "officially signing up".

 

One reason The Official App works different is, it's designed to be totally free with no obligation, while at the same time being fair to paying members who don't even need “An App”.

 

Online gaming Apps are paid by users. The complaint in this Thread deliberately ignores the fact all of these Apps are paid by users, and it's the same old complaint. Look at the reviews, where users rate those Game Apps low simply because you must buy “gems” to keep playing. People pay thousands of dollars for “gems”, there is no limit to how much you can pay.

 

The Official Geocaching App is different because not only is it a nominal per year, it's in fact free:

 

You can test if you like Geocaching, see if it works well on your phone, and you're almost guaranteed to find a cache without any knowledge at all about how it's done...

 

all before you verify your account.

 

That's what makes this App very cool! Every other Gaming App including 3^rd Party Geocaching Apps (and the vast majority of Apps in general) requires special advance “verification”. In exchange for a truly No Obligation trial of The App, you can't see every cache that's on the web site.

 

So this Complaint Thread is in fact requiring everyone to become “Verified” just like every other online App does. Because if you see the whole Web Site, you obviously went through the process to access the whole web site. If you're doing that, you're not a user who is testing the game and hunting one super easy cache. In which case, still without paying anything you can either...

 

go to the Web Site, see all that cache info, type coordinates into the App, go find any cache.

 

Or...

 

use the GPX link on the cache page, for 3^rd Party Apps that support it.

 

At this point, we may choose a handheld GPS instead and not an App. Completely load it up with cache info for free as a Basic Member, no “App” needed.

 

It is disingenuous to ignore the fact that people using “Apps” have the wherewithal to pay the moderate annual Premium Member fee. They pay for an expensive data subscription, phone and accessories. Someone who cannot then save up for perks that they want, is again a small subset of all Geocachers, and certainly has more financial problems than merely cache membership. Most people budget for the things they want. Lots of Geocachers don't even need An App... they might prefer the development go into Web Site programming instead.

 

So we see how changing the features, and programming for both Android and Apple Apps, and on the Web Site,  ruins Geocaching for brand new App users, creates a development burden on programmers, and harms all the rest of us in many ways. That's not fair.

 

Edited March 19 by kunarion

[+barefootjeff]

3 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I'm always happy to have a new geocacher find one of my caches.  I don't have many active right now, but I've had lots of low D/T traditional caches and it's great to see a log that says "this was my first cache, so fun!".  Or even a DNF from a new cacher.  I'll send a welcome message to them via the message center, and for DNF logs I'll give them some tips and be open for questions.  I enjoy being a mentor to others.

 

Around here at least, most new players start off with premium membership before they've even found their first cache and then exclusively use a phone app (most likely the official app) and never visit the website. They typically have no understanding of cache types and the app hides the description away so they're unlikely to look at that either, hence the instructions to "pick a nearby cache on the map and tap Navigate to go find it" will likely end badly if that cache is a non-traditional. Trying to contact them via Message Centre or email is usually a pointless excercise as they rarely respond, to the point of making me wonder whether Message Centre notifications are disabled by default when a newbie downloads the app. A couple of months ago I had a relatively new player (joined last August) log a find on my virtual but didn't send me any answers. I sent them polite follow-up requests by both Message Centre and email, twice over the course of a month, but got no response at all and in the end had no option but to delete their log. I've had similar experiences on some of my multis, where they've logged a find after only getting as far as the first waypoint. My follow-up messages trying to be helpful get no response and I end up having to be an ogre and delete their log.

 

The beginner's pathway via the app probably works well if they start with Basic membership and only go for easy traditionals until they've learnt a bit about how the game works, but for all the ones now who have PM from the get-go, it's likely to end in disappointment for the player and cause unnecessary grief for the COs of non-traditional and higher D/T caches where reading the description before tapping Navigate is a necessity.

[+kunarion]

14 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Around here at least, most new players start off with premium membership before they've even found their first cache and then exclusively use a phone app (most likely the official app) and never visit the website. They typically have no understanding of cache types and the app hides the description away so they're unlikely to look at that either, hence the instructions to "pick a nearby cache on the map and tap Navigate to go find it" will likely end badly if that cache is a non-traditional. Trying to contact them via Message Centre or email is usually a pointless excercise as they rarely respond, to the point of making me wonder whether Message Centre notifications are disabled by default when a newbie downloads the app. A couple of months ago I had a relatively new player (joined last August) log a find on my virtual but didn't send me any answers. I sent them polite follow-up requests by both Message Centre and email, twice over the course of a month, but got no response at all and in the end had no option but to delete their log. I've had similar experiences on some of my multis, where they've logged a find after only getting as far as the first waypoint. My follow-up messages trying to be helpful get no response and I end up having to be an ogre and delete their log.

 

The beginner's pathway via the app probably works well if they start with Basic membership and only go for easy traditionals until they've learnt a bit about how the game works, but for all the ones now who have PM from the get-go, it's likely to end in disappointment for the player and cause unnecessary grief for the COs of non-traditional and higher D/T caches where reading the description before tapping Navigate is a necessity.

 

On my caches, I see a few more signed paper logs not logged online, and cachers making fewer local Finds in general lately.  But mischief tends to occur on on my easiest caches, more often found by Muggles.

 

However, almost nobody replies to my Message Center requests, New member or not.  I use MC because it sends at least part of the text to both Email and the MC, so they should see a notice either way.  Maybe nobody knows how to reply in that case.  I'll experiment and see if I could do things differently with success.  It doesn't help that all Geocaching Email subjects look like generic Spam:  "Geocaching: kunarion, you have a new message from".  Sure, it's an Email subject, but let's just say it doesn't look like anything, it doesn't stand out.  Not a complaint, just an observation. 

 

Can you tell if the new users in your area are PM for more than 1 month?  If I were new and had no idea what I was doing, paying for a full year might seem risky. Maybe I'd try the $7 for one month to test things.  If these guys are paying and still messing around all year, that adds a whole new angle to the "Why Do I Need To Pay!" threads.

 

Edited March 19 by kunarion

[+kunarion]

18 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I made a video on my channel a couple of years ago explaining how basic members can access the website via their phones to access all the non-PMO caches.  Logging into geocaching.com through the phone browser.  Copying the coordinates to a map app like Google Maps.  Logging through the browser.  I'm against using any data scraping apps to access caches to get around an API, but what the video explains is how to get the data they are entitled to from the website on their phones.  It's one of my most watched and liked videos.

 

I added the info to some of my cache descriptions.  Working with coordinates is a skill that Geocachers (including PM) should learn, especially if they're hunting advanced caches.

 

I'd also suggest to use The Web Site with a modern full-featured browser on an actual personal computer with a nice, big readable screen.  At the very least, many caches will be unsolvable when viewed on a phone.  And on the desktop, all kinds of useful Geocaching information becomes readily available, which people otherwise can't seem to find.  Still, I use the web site on my phone all the time in the field, but on this Forum, everyone and his monkey insist that they cannot do so.

 

Edited March 19 by kunarion