Are GPS's more accurate than phones?

January 8

Why post GPS locations when phones have it "built in"?

January 8

My Garmin GPSMAP 65 is way more accurate than my Iphone, it will consistantly get me within 6 Feet, my cell phone around 20 feet at best. This is my experience, yours may differ.

January 8

I cache with a phone. I cache with friends that use a GPSr. Some caches I'm right on top of the cache and they are 20 feet off. Some caches it is the reverse.

The debate is endless.

Edited January 8 by igator210

3k · January 8

1 hour ago, majordude said:

Why post GPS locations when phones have it "built in"?

Smartphones get their GPS signal from the same satellites as a Garmin.

The difference is the quality of the receiver, which varies. Smartphones are much better than they used to be. Depending on your device and where you cache the difference might not be meaningful.

If you go on long hikes in the woods you're more likely to notice the difference in accuracy, battery life, and durability.

6.8k · January 8

1 hour ago, majordude said:

Why post GPS locations when phones have it "built in"?

Because geocaching isn't just a phone game. The only way a cache icon appears on your phone's map is because the cache owner entered the coordinates into the website, preferably after averaging them over several visits. Even when locatlities can be readily identified on maps or satellite images, those can sometimes be wildly inaccurate. For example, the walking tracks near my most recent cache appear quite differently on Google and OSM maps and neither is anything like the actual tracks on the ground, with the real track junction almost 200 metres from where either map puts it. On the satellite image all you can see is the tops of trees so that's of no help, so the only way to reliably locate anything there is with GPS coordinates.

4.4k · January 8

Because sometimes we like to move coords from place to place. Solve a puzzle, key in the result, for example.

Any other questions?

January 8

There are a wide variety of GPS devices and phones on the market which will all vary in accuracy, so it depends on the device, but often a high quality GPS will be more accurate than a phone of comparable quality.

But you have to consider that geocaches are not placed with survey grade accuracy and often not even with a GPS, so a super accurate GPS-centric device probably isn't going to be as valuable in this hobby as it would be in professional surveying, for example. All the accuracy in the world won't overcome inaccurate cache coordinates.

6.1k · January 8

10 hours ago, majordude said:

Why post GPS locations when phones have it "built in"?

You seem to be suggesting that phones know where caches are by some sort of magic, the fact is the phones use the GPS co-ordinates on the cache listing to know where the cache is, so the GPS co-ordinates still need to be there for each cache even when using a phone and as it's there it might as well be shown rather than being hidden from the user.

It's also valuable to have the co-ordinates visible in the event of location issues, bad coverage, etc.

4.2k · January 8

My GPS is usually better than my phone, except in built up urban areas (tall buildings), where my phone is better. The GPS is also quicker to 'zoom' in on GZ. It's often found GZ, while the phone is still thinking about it. I have an android.

The GPS is also easier to hold, as it's smaller. Also doesn't keep turning off.

January 8

My Garmin eTrex and my iphone are just about equally accurate. The phone sometimes "wanders" for a second or two when nearing a GZ. But that doesn't happen all the time.

2.9k · January 8

14 hours ago, majordude said:

Why post GPS locations when phones have it "built in"?

GPS locations are used by advanced geocachers. For casual players we have Adventure Lab caches without GPS locations. Have you tried it yet?

13.7k · January 8

20 hours ago, majordude said:

Why post GPS locations when phones have it "built in"?

Those GPS locations have to be posted so we can find that spot too... Looking at the app, it's done for you...

Maybe if the hobby was still called "The language of location", and folks brought you to awesome views and unique places you'd "get it".

Now that the other 2/3rds is semi-disabled, finds for me are now in the woods, and much higher than 1-1.5/1.5 micros around town...

There's still a large group of GPSr users (I'm one), I think I used a phone once since joining the hobby. The GPSr does one thing well.

- I usually manage a couple days on one set of batteries with a 60csx. My phone's eating juice for all the other functions it does.

1.7k · January 9

On 1/7/2024 at 5:29 PM, majordude said:

Why post GPS locations when phones have it "built in"?

The definition of geocaching:
Geocaching is an outdoor recreational activity, in which participants use a Global Positioning System receiver or mobile device and other navigational techniques to hide and seek containers, called geocaches or caches, at specific locations marked by coordinates all over the world. (Wikipedia)

The core of geocaching is using GPS coordinates to hide and find the caches...it may be "built in" to the phone, but it's still using the coordinate system to locate the caches. Many cachers use GPS hand held devices to find the caches, and the whole "game" is based ont he GPS coordinate system. Not to mention puzzles, multis, and other types where you have to figure out the coordinates before you can then go find the cache.

It isn't geocaching if you are NOT posting the GPS coordinates!!

2k · January 9

Your phone or computer uses the same coordinates as a gps for everything. Otherwise, where would locations come from? Heck, type a random address in any map application, and the coordinates are there, see this for example. Ok, it's a different data format than geocaching uses, but still coordinates. Just for fun (and some learning) here are various (not all) coordinate systems and conversion methods: https://www.geocachingtoolbox.com/index.php?lang=en&page=coordinateConversion or type by hand various coordinates in various formats into google maps instead of an address. You'll get there as well.

1.9k · January 9

We always use a GPS to measure coordinates for a hide, and mostly search using a GPSr too (Garmin Montana), we also use phones to search at times - I don't believe there is really a significant difference in the accuracy between them. I prefer a GPS to search, as it more efficient - it is always navigating, never needs screen unlocking etc... and is better for battery life, accuracy searching - no real difference I've noted....

January 9

Of all the GPS and cell phones I've had over the years, the most accurate device has always been my old Garmin GPSmap 60CSx.

My Garmin GPSmap 60CSx is still the GPS that I use when I hide a new cache.

January 12

On 1/9/2024 at 7:59 AM, OusKonNé & Cétyla said:

Of all the GPS and cell phones I've had over the years, the most accurate device has always been my old Garmin GPSmap 60CSx.

I've had similar experiences with friend's Garmins. Phones are convenient in your pocket already with the info available on the app without having to input it, but Garmins and other dedicated devices have an edge. I notice it most when I'm way out in the mountains out of signal and only the pre-downloaded maps on either phone or Garmin are available.

January 12

The algorithm used to convert signals into useable data is pretty much the same for all devices. What isn't the same is the way the signal is collected, meaning the antenna. The physics of antennas is such that the bigger the antenna the better. Hand held GPSr's have larger antennas than smart phones. Phones are designed by marketing managers where fashion is as important as function...fashion sells.

5.3k · January 15

The big advantage of the dedicated GPS is that you can make the compass page actually point in the direction of the cache.

You do that by disabling the magnetic compass and using the movement of the GPS (which is quite accurate down to about 1 km/h)

2.9k · January 15

2 hours ago, fizzymagic said:

The big advantage of the dedicated GPS is that you can make the compass page actually point in the direction of the cache.

You do that by disabling the magnetic compass and using the movement of the GPS (which is quite accurate down to about 1 km/h)

I didn't know this because all apps I have used can show the direction based on GPS movement. For example, Locus.

9k · January 15

A dedicated GPS on a relative scale will (should) always be better in general for GPS than a smartphone. That is its selling point, obviously.

Phones have many more features and benefits in the package however. So it depends what you're looking to use it for. And when it comes to the context of geocaching (which includes GPS precision to only 3 decimal minutes) most any modern smartphone is plenty sufficient. A better device can have much higher accuracy and provide high precision GPS values, but when it comes to using GPS coordinates for finding, a smartphone will absolutely suffice; and when it comes to placing, any device requires proper use to ensure the most accurate coordinates the device can provide. And since all coordinates are converted for geocaching context the only benefit to high precision is being more confident when hiding of your location when noting the coordinates. Any other user will be reduced to the provided 3 decimal precision when seeking it.

So in geocaching context, you've got a few properties to consider and decide upon for yourself, which are pretty much entirely device dependent and you'll never get an objective answer when vaguely asking a community "which is best" -- GPS speed, battery power, durability, screen visibility, usability in cold, device size in your hand and pocket, etc... all preference issues. Most people who start with smartphones are completely happy, and may express intrigue at a dedicated device's technical quality in and of itself, useful for pure gps use, but generally tend to fall back to the phone for its other benefits and their favourite geocaching app and usability, especially if they're fine with accessories (like battery packs, cases, screen protectors, etc) and not wanting to dish $ for a dedicated gps. Most people who start with a dedicated gpsr would stand by it through thick and thin, and may or may not have a secondary smartphone device for the geocaching app or ability to connect and transfer data easily, but would still use the gpsr for geocaching as their go-to device, content with handling and managing two active devices. Both sides of the fence generally prefer the device on which they first learned, when it comes to geocaching.

* 'tend to', 'generally' used intentionally, as there are always exceptions and opinions are never universal

* this is not a scientifically defensible report, only my perspective summary of what I've seen in various similar discussions in forums and social media

In short: If you're geocaching, and you have any relatively up to date hardware, you will be fine as long as you know how to use it properly. Today, no tech has a truly objective leg up when it comes to geocaching. Find something you like, that you can use, that suits your geocaching style and climate, and use it to your heart's content. (And try not to personally identify with it or you'll get sucked into all the "my dad is better than your dad" arguments about the best gps to use )

January 15

On 1/7/2024 at 9:27 PM, TheLimeCat said:

But you have to consider that geocaches are not placed with survey grade accuracy and often not even with a GPS, so a super accurate GPS-centric device probably isn't going to be as valuable in this hobby as it would be in professional surveying, for example. All the accuracy in the world won't overcome inaccurate cache coordinates.

My thoughts exactly.

Can't tell you how many times I get close to a GZ, got to the coordinates. Then expand the search to the usual places. Then read the hint. Then search some more. Then read the description. Search some more. Then read previous logs. Oh coordinates off by 50 feet. There it is. Sign log move on.

15.3k · January 15

10 minutes ago, MNTA said:

Can't tell you how many times I get close to a GZ, got to the coordinates. Then expand the search to the usual places. Then read the hint. Then search some more. Then read the description. Search some more. Then read previous logs. Oh coordinates off by 50 feet. There it is. Sign log move on.

On the flip side, I can't tell you how many times I've arrived at GZ, dropped my daypack or parked my bicycle, expanded my search, then expanded my search some more, then expanded my search some more, then returned to GZ and found my daypack or bicycle on top of the cache.

5.3k · January 16

On 1/7/2024 at 9:27 PM, TheLimeCat said:

There are a wide variety of GPS devices and phones on the market which will all vary in accuracy, so it depends on the device, but often a high quality GPS will be more accurate than a phone of comparable quality.

But you have to consider that geocaches are not placed with survey grade accuracy and often not even with a GPS, so a super accurate GPS-centric device probably isn't going to be as valuable in this hobby as it would be in professional surveying, for example. All the accuracy in the world won't overcome inaccurate cache coordinates.

Good point. Geocachers who intend to place caches should use a device that gives good accuracy. That is ""valuable in this hobby." When I place a cache I always aim for 3 m or better accuracy.

January 16

On 1/7/2024 at 7:29 PM, majordude said:

Why post GPS locations when phones have it "built in"?

Try using a phone where signals are weak or nonexistent. I use my garmin 99% of the time.

January 16

1 hour ago, fizzymagic said:

Good point. Geocachers who intend to place caches should use a device that gives good accuracy. That is ""valuable in this hobby." When I place a cache I always aim for 3 m or better accuracy.

Wishful thinking. The verdict is in the casual cachers probably are using a smartphone. Accuracy is not required. Besides in many environments clear views of the sky to get the accuracy is not feasible.

Don't get me wrong. Good coordinates are appreciated.

6.8k · January 16

2 hours ago, MNTA said:

Wishful thinking. The verdict is in the casual cachers probably are using a smartphone. Accuracy is not required. Besides in many environments clear views of the sky to get the accuracy is not feasible.

Don't get me wrong. Good coordinates are appreciated.

There was a new cache Sydney's northern beaches published late yesterday, so I took the ferry across the bay and a bus down to the nearest stop to it. When I arrived I saw another cacher searching in widening circles and shrugging his shoulders, so I joined him in what we were both starting to think was likely to end in a pair of DNF logs. But eventually he called out "Found it!" and sure enough, there it was in the bushes a bit further down on the other side of the road.

BadCoordinates.jpg.7ec3f2ef5a92f4a988917dceeaaf125c.jpg

He was using a phone and I was using my Garmin GPSMAP 67 but we both agreed it was about 13 metres off and, when we compared the coordinates we were reading at the cache, they were within 0.001 minutes of each other. So it's not about the device, it's about the care taken to record coordinates. The official app's cludge of marking a waypoint on another cache encourages people who don't know any better to just take a single reading. I don't understand why, after all these years and all the complaints about poor coordinates, they can't add something in the app specifically for taking coordinates for a new cache, that itself takes numerous readings (ideally over at least several minutes but perhaps some cachers aren't that patient), discards any outliers and averages the rest.

2.9k · January 16

5 hours ago, MNTA said:

Accuracy is not required.

This is against guidelines. "When hiding a cache, record accurate coordinates"

January 16

I believe most people who use Smartphones do not know how the GPS system works… they think it’s magic. As long as it can navigate them to a restaurant, that's good enough. However, finding a micro in the woods relies on two factors i.e. the skill of the cache owner plus the skill of the cache seeker. Skill only comes from knowledge and practice.

Maybe a certification program should be enabled by TPTB with a “License to Cache” issued! The license has two levels: The Right to Find, and The Right to Hide. (A framed certificate of competency would be a nice touch!)

9k · January 16

7 hours ago, Capt. Bob said:

I believe most people who use Smartphones do not know how the GPS system works… they think it’s magic.

Yes. And this is the problem. It's not "phones". It's the user of the phone. Most likely a lot of phone users are either enabling gps and taking an immediate reading before gps satellite data is received and calculated sufficiently (and this is seriously not a hard thing to grasp), or they're using a satellite imagery source and guessing the location when the imagery alignment may be off, perhaps overriding a correct gps location for a pin positioned on the sat map. Almost guaranteed a person with a relatively recent smartphone providing bad coordinates is not due to the simple fact that they're using a smartphone. As I mentioned above, every device has a learning curve, and every user of every device should know how to use their device, especially when it comes to placing geocaches that may prompt people to expend time and energy hoping for a smiley... :omnomnom:

Edited January 17 by thebruce0

6.8k · January 16

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Almost guaranteed a person with a relatively recent smartphone providing bad coordinates is not due to the simple fact that they're using a smartphone.

It's not the fact that it's a phone, it's the app that's being used on it. The official app is a particularly bad tool to use for taking coordinates on. Apart from not providing any convenient way to do averaging, it also seems to stop taking any readings at all if it thinks you aren't moving and can be tens of metres off if you're slowly walking around before the displayed coordinates suddenly change.

9k · January 17

33 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Almost guaranteed a person with a relatively recent smartphone providing bad coordinates is not due to the simple fact that they're using a smartphone.

It's not the fact that it's a phone, it's the app that's being used on it.

Exactly

And there are quite a number of apps. So it's still a matter of knowing how to use the device, plus the software, whichever is preferred (and still applies both to a phone or dedicated GPSr brand)

5.3k · January 17

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Yes. And this is the problem. It's not "phones". It's the user of the phone.

Absolutely correct. You can use a dedicated GPS unit just as badly. And people did, back in the olden times.

But the percentages are worse today. From my experience, about 40% take good coordinates. It's better in the desert and worse in cities. I have taken to using the satellite maps on the phone to guide my search when in urban areas. Frequently the location shown in the satellite image is the cache location, which may or may not be GZ. (Speaking of which, why is the zoom so limited in the Official App?)

Not a criticism of anybody in particular; it's just how life is.

9k · January 17

I agree all the more reason there just needs to be better training/tutorials, or better UI or programming to make the understanding of the spirit and technology of geocaching all a bit easier for the newbie, especially if newbie to 'modern technology'... Whether it's official or grassroots. I'm all for that :antenna: (as are most social media 'influencers' for lack of a better term)

6.8k · January 17

23 minutes ago, fizzymagic said:

Frequently the location shown in the satellite image is the cache location, which may or may not be GZ. (Speaking of which, why is the zoom so limited in the Official App?)

What irks me more is where the map and/or satellite image clearly shows the cache icon in the wrong place (like the one I did yesterday that was well over on the other side of the road, both on the satellite image and in reality). Do people just click Submit without even looking at the map? Part of this, I'm sure, is design of the cache submission page where the default button on the Editor screen is Submit, so you can (and are seemingly encouraged to) submit a cache without ever looking at the cache page you've created.

4.2k · January 17

21 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

we both agreed it was about 13 metres off

Did you mention the coordinates need fixing? Maybe a NM?

Of course if it's like my experience some will argue that their coordinates and right and yours are wrong. One experience, even if the coordinates are several hundred metres out.

4.2k · January 17

1 hour ago, fizzymagic said:

It's better in the desert and worse in cities.

In some parts of cities, such as narrow alleyways between tall buildings, taking the coordinates off Google maps (fairly accurate where I live) would be better than from the phone or GPS. Wouldn't matter that much though, as finders GPSs will be way off too. In one experience 50m off.

6.8k · January 17

11 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

Did you mention the coordinates need fixing? Maybe a NM?

I stated the facts, that we both had it about 13 metres off and gave the coordinates I took (the other finder still only has a "FTF, full log to come" log). I can't say for sure that my coordinates are better than the CO's, and I didn't stay there long enough to do much averaging or revisit it on another day to confirm like I do with my own hides, but our coordinates were consistent with the map and satellite image but the CO's aren't.

6.8k · January 17

2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

2 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Did you mention the coordinates need fixing? Maybe a NM?

I stated the facts, that we both had it about 13 metres off and gave the coordinates I took

That looks to have been sufficient, as the CO has just updated their coordinates. Yay!

11.6k · January 17

On 1/7/2024 at 8:29 PM, majordude said:

Why post GPS locations when phones have it "built in"?

You asked two very different questions there. GPS coordinates are what either device uses to find a particular spot. Even with a phone, you might use the coordinates in various ways, while hunting a cache. The coordinates are the whole ballgame.

And iPhones, for example, use a combination of things, which are called "Location Services", to guide you to places. I had an iThing that had no GPS circuits at all, and another that would wander 300 feet or more while I watched it. And the device won't reveal if it has any satellite lock, nor even if it's using "GPS", or what signal it may be using instead. So it may be "accurate" or not.

None of these things are necessarily surveyor's instruments, and you can't expect to be dropped directly on top of every Geocache. They just guide you to a place, and you use descriptions, hints, and "Geosense" to find it.

Edited January 17 by kunarion

11.6k · January 17

2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

I stated the facts, that we both had it about 13 metres off and gave the coordinates I took (the other finder still only has a "FTF, full log to come" log). I can't say for sure that my coordinates are better than the CO's, and I didn't stay there long enough to do much averaging or revisit it on another day to confirm like I do with my own hides, but our coordinates were consistent with the map and satellite image but the CO's aren't.

I post in my log how far off I was, and in which direction. And I'll mention how much work I put in to get the reading. Like, maybe I didn't give it time to settle down.

Unless it never settles down and keeps bee-dancing all over the place. Then I just say it didn't settle on any spot.

4.2k · January 17

2 hours ago, kunarion said:

I post in my log how far off I was

I post something similar, after I have sat the GPS there awhile for it to settle. I often write, my GPS was out so many metres and it was showing (coordinates).

Not claiming their coordinates are out (no, no no :rolleyes: ), it's my GPS that is wrong... :antenna:

11.6k · January 17

6 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

I post something similar, after I have sat the GPS there awhile for it to settle. I often write, my GPS was out so many metres and it was showing (coordinates).

Not claiming their coordinates are out (no, no no ), it's my GPS that is wrong...

Yes! I just report my readings. That doesn't mean I think that the CO doesn't know what he's doing. Certainly not! :anicute:

January 17

As a smartphone user exclusively to cache, it is NOT the smartphone. I've never owned a GPSr, and have been caching for 10 years. While I haven't hidden a lot of caches, I've participated in Snag The Tag. I've hidden over 50 tags and have only had 1 complaint about my coordinates. Please don't lump all smartphone users together. Some of us know what we are doing.

I'm sure Keystone will pop up shortly remind us to stay on topic.

1.9k · January 17

7 hours ago, kunarion said:

Yes! I just report my readings.

That's all I do.... 'We found the cache 10m south of indicated GZ', or 'we found it at S234 E872'. I've only been there once, my device may be the problem..... For puzzles/multis I'll give an offset ie S -0.012 E+0.008 whatever..... then other users can use it if they want, the CO can take it on board if they decide to tweak coords <insert laughter track here>.....

If I give a coord it will be a decently averaged GPS coord, checked against our phones also, if they are discordant I won't make any coord comments.....

We found one around 25m out this week, I think the CO didn't know how to extrapolate coords to show a cache under a bridge.....

13.7k · January 17

7 hours ago, kunarion said:

Yes! I just report my readings. That doesn't mean I think that the CO doesn't know what he's doing. Certainly not!

We find issues mostly with no-finds hiders using phones...

We say something like, "Some odd reason the GPS had me 80 feet away..." so, it could be either error, but most likely them. :laughing:

For example, a Boy Scout Pack cache I still haven't been able to get to yet is over 90' away, on the other side of a creek from posted coordinates.

Been that way a couple years now, and when I'm able to stop by, I'll leave my "Some odd reason..." log and it's first NM/OA...

The last no finds hider saying she used her phone in her description had the cache 400 feet away from posted coordinates.

The other 2/3rds, a FTF maniac at the time, took her time, thought it out and found it. That was her last Beta Test find and quit that day.

1.9k · January 17

26 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

We find issues mostly with no-finds hiders using phones...

We say something like, "Some odd reason the GPS had me 80 feet away..." so, it could be either error, but most likely them.

For example, a Boy Scout Pack cache I still haven't been able to get to yet is over 90' away, on the other side of a creek from posted coordinates.

Been that way a couple years now, and when I'm able to stop by, I'll leave my "Some odd reason..." log and it's first NM/OA...

The last no finds hider saying she used her phone in her description had the cache 400 feet away from posted coordinates.

The other 2/3rds, a FTF maniac at the time, took her time, thought it out and found it. That was her last Beta Test find and quit that day.

Errors under 10m/30' - could be a lot at play - the huge errors you have mentioned are from inexperience - probably a mix of taking the first coord as the app fires up without waiting for it to settle, tree cover/bridges etc, and typos entering coords when submitting, coupled with not taking a peep at the map to check if looks OK on the (rubbish) hiding maps supplied....

addit - I should add - the above aren't exclusive to phone users, GPS users can do exactly the same.... :)_

Edited January 17 by lee737

9k · January 17

47 minutes ago, lee737 said:

That's all I do.... 'We found the cache 10m south of indicated GZ', or 'we found it at S234 E872'.

Yep and I miss the alternate coordinates addon with the clearly displayed coordinates. When I do that, I bold any gps/location details for other people to more easily pick out a potentially better reading if they're skimming, just as I typically do. I irk if I read something vague like 'expanded my search and found it' - at the very least, provide a distance estimate from where you zeroed out And I don't care if 4 people provide alternate coordinates; if the posted coords seem bad, any number of 'second opinions' is more helpful...

Also, I have zero qualms about posting 'better' coordinates when it's clear that the cache owner provided intentionally fuzzy coordinates (like follow the instructions from the posted coordinates) - in most every case coordinates are there for a purpose, to take you to something AT the coordinates. Off the top of my head, Letterboxes, Multis, and Mysteries are really the only ones where there could be an exception for the listing (puzzle/offset). I think everything else has precise coordinates implied by its posted.

January 18

On 1/16/2024 at 11:52 PM, barefootjeff said:

That looks to have been sufficient, as the CO has just updated their coordinates. Yay!

Pythagorean’ Theorem, A² + B² = C²is a machine. Enter values for A & B and it precisely calculates the result for C, but it may be not accurate!

Accuracy depends on the user who must enter the correct data and know how to do math!

4.2k · January 30

On 1/16/2024 at 11:00 AM, fizzymagic said:

When I place a cache I always aim for 3 m or better accuracy.

As everyone should.

Are GPS's more accurate than phones?

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