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Time to move along


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We think this has gone far enough and although we no longer are in a position to demand good behaviour on this forum, we can suggest and implore that all of us here move along.

 

We need to move back into the sanity which once pervaded this pastime.

 

Each is entitled to his/her own opinion and is entitled to have that opinion heard, but to go around in circles being pedantic about minor issues such as which words were used where and generally nit-picking, is getting us nowhere.

 

If person "A" feels that he/she has something to say, then he/she has a right to say so.

If person "B" has a differing opinion, they also have a right to say so.

For either persons to nit-pick over minor issues is plain folly.

 

When that happens, we end up in ever decreasing circles achieving nothing but simply destroying the arguments on both sides.

 

The case I have in mind here is the GAGB, which we will use as an example. The founders said something along the lines of "The association was established in order to assist and further the game we are all here for, hiding and finding boxes."

 

The true reason the GAGB was founded was, I can assure you was to "assist and further the game". Plus, Jeremy Irish has indicated that he would like regional representation by committees because that would allow local level self government by the cachers.

 

People other than those "founders" have no absolute and direct knowledge of whether that is true or not. That is understandable, and they have a right to say "I don't believe that is the case", but if that is worded "That is not the case", that is a statement which is likely to cause conflict, and the nit-picking starts.

 

Note there are no direct quotes in that example, and if there are, it is entirely unintentional and apologies are offered.

 

We have to all accept that there will be differences of opinion, and we should all accept those differences, and we should respect those who make their feelings known. Going through somebody's long post and finding minor issues to "have a go" about simply prolongs the agony. I guess I have done that too, but it rarely achieves anything, and possibly destroys a good point.

 

To our mind, the above is what eventually led to our resignation, which was a hard decision for us to make because we were so dedicated to the pastime. So what of the newer cachers who visit here ?

 

If it takes 10 buckets of manure to drive Tim & June out, how many buckets does it take to drive out a newer cacher ?

 

Remember, we are one of the few countries to have our own forum, if we abuse it, we might loose it.

 

Time to restore some sanity, c'mon you guys, please try to live in harmony, if not in unison.

 

If you have any issue about the above, please try to be constructive, not destructive or confrontational.

 

Thanks for reading our opinions which we wish to air to all.

 

Happy caching

T&J

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I agree completely with T&J's post but would also like to ask the following so that we can indeed move on with some sanity..

 

1. Is there still no UK Admin ?... If not, what's the future of this position ?

2. Is the GAGB dead, or just 'sleeping on it'.

 

Steve

 

If you can see the 'light at the end of the tunnel', it's usually a train coming !

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quote:
Originally posted by Team Paradise:

I agree completely with T&J's post but would also like to ask the following so that we can indeed move on with some sanity..

 

1. Is there still no UK Admin ?... If not, what's the future of this position ?

2. Is the GAGB dead, or just 'sleeping on it'.


 

Thanks for your agreement (and to the others above).

 

As far as we are aware, there still is no UK Admin, and we have no knowledge of how that proceeds or otherwise.

 

At this stage, the GAGB is simply sitting waiting for the founder members to really decide how to proceed, if at all. People continue to sign up at a trickle so there seems a future for it in some way.

 

It is true that we expected almost unanimous support for it, hence the wording which was used. In light of the knowledge that it does not have such support, new wording will have to be decided if the GAGB is to continue.

 

We can now only wait and see what happens, but whichever way it goes, June and I have no interest in anything other than being a member (never really had any other intention).

 

[edit]Hmm! now El10t has said that, some of my post is redundant [/edit] icon_smile.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by el10t:

Yes its being slept on while all the useful comments that have been made on this forum are thought about.

 

Rich

_mobilis in mobili_


 

That answers Q2 for Steve from Team Paradise, but how about Q1.

 

What about the future of UK Admin, both the moderation of this forum and the approval of caches?

 

Where can we as a community safely and successfully go from here?

 

I would offer to have a crack at it myself until I am allowed to go back to work, but:

 

a) I have very limited Internet Access.

 

:) I have nothing like the experience of others.

 

c) I do not have the erudition to argue the case for geocaching politically as others have so obviously done.

 

d) I am afraid I would probably be TOO ready to censor those comments and posts I thought to be inflamatory or counter-productive.

 

So that does not really help.........

 

dodgydaved

 

I'm NOT lost, I know exactly where I am, I'm here!

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How do you sign up for the GAGB and express an interest? All I want to do is join, pay my dues, and keep geocachin' with full backing of landowners, county councils and whoever.

 

If geocaching dies in this country, it would be an awful shame. We must treasure what we have.

 

Thanks,

AandS

 

(oh, T&J I admire your thick skin)

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quote:
Originally posted by Dodgydaved:

What about the future of UK Admin, both the moderation of this forum and the approval of caches?

 

a) I have very limited Internet Access.


You only need enough to read the forums and any prospective cache pages...

quote:
:) I have nothing like the experience of others.

You're in the top 20 for both finding and placing caches, and are a longstanding member of this forum...

quote:
c) I do not have the erudition to argue the case for geocaching politically as others have so obviously done.

A moderator with no political ambitions could be just what we need right now!

quote:
d) I am afraid I would probably be TOO ready to censor those comments and posts I thought to be inflamatory or counter-productive.

A firm hand could also be a very good thing in the short term; especially from someone with no personal axe to grind. Because you have yourself been on the receiving end of "active moderation" (he says, grasping around for a neutral phrase!), I think you'd have a lot of credibility in the role.

quote:
So that does not really help.........

I beg to differ! DodgyDaveD for admin!!! icon_biggrin.gif

 

GeocacheUK - resources for the UK Geocaching community.

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quote:
I beg to differ! DodgyDaveD for admin!!!

 

We agree - Your posts always come across as helpful & even handed, you can have our vote for what it's worth! icon_smile.gificon_smile.gif

 

& whilst i think about it...

 

quote:
If it takes 10 buckets of manure to drive Tim & June out, how many buckets does it take to drive out a newer cacher ?

 

Probably not much to drive them away from the forums if not the sport.

We are still new at this & have thought many times that we should simply avoid the forums as we often find ourselves wound up by them - It's only the fact that Caching has become such an obsession that keeps bringing us back to see what's going on, We can't help it! icon_eek.gif

 

We take our children everywhere, but they always find their way back home...

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Dodgy Dave has already said that he could only moderate (if at all) until he goes back to work, so perhaps he's the best person to do it - then if we wind him up too much, he will have the opportunity to "retire with honour" icon_smile.gif

 

We don't have a moderator, and so far only DD has offered: I say, go for it Dave!

 

So many caches, so little time...

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Refering to T & J's comments on newcomers to the sport, as one myself, I am personally disgusted by the behaviour of some members on the forums. I joined what I thought was a friendly group of people all enjoying a great pastime. I am beginning to think I may have made a mistake, as some people are obviously being antagonistic and not constructive in their comments! I am now getting close to abstaining from the forums and just concentrating on caching, which is the part I really enjoy. Please stop all this unpleasantness as I doubt anyone will want to join in future if this carries on.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dodgydaved:

What about the future of UK Admin, both the moderation of this forum and the approval of caches?

 

I would offer to have a crack at it myself until I am allowed to go back to work,


Looks like you offer has been taken up Dave.

 

You are probably the nicest bloke we have met in UK caching and you have our full support.

 

If we are to replace three cache approvers, how about having a regional split with one in the south, one in the north and one for Scotland and N. Ireland?

 

I offered my services as a cache approver to Groundspeak a while back to cover any surge in caches in the summer months but at the time it wasn't felt neccassary to extend the provision. If there is support for a regional split I would be happy to cover the north of the country, with DodgyDaveD doing the south.

 

I cerainly agree with Tim & June that we need to return to sanity on the UK forums or risk losing them. I know that Groundspeak are having to moderate the forums themselves at the moment and I'm sure that they have better things to do with their time.

 

Alex.

 

---------------------------------------------------

Knights of the Green Shield stamp and shout.....

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quote:
Originally posted by Slytherin:

 

Looks like you offer has been taken up Dave.

 


 

OK I've said I'll have a crack, but what happens now?.

 

quote:

If we are to replace three cache approvers, how about having a regional split with one in the south, one in the north and one for Scotland and N. Ireland?

 

...................

 

If there is support for a regional split I would be happy to cover the north of the country, with DodgyDaveD doing the south.


 

Sounds an excellent idea!!!!!

 

Scotland, Wales, Ireland & Eire (?), North of the Trent and Mersey Canal (Arbitrary and debatable, moveable feast?), South of said Waterway.

quote:

 

I cerainly agree with Tim & June that we need to return to sanity on the UK forums or risk losing them.

 


 

I think most of us agree with that....

 

quote:

I know that Groundspeak are having to moderate the forums themselves at the moment and I'm sure that they have better things to do with their time.


 

No doubt, So, what does one do now???????

Alex.

 

---------------------------------------------------

Knights of the Green Shield stamp and shout.....

 

dodgydaved

 

I'm NOT lost, I know exactly where I am, I'm here!

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Finally we have stopped moving backwards. Let's see if we can get the car in first and get the clutch up.

 

First Task- Get some admins on board. It sounds like we have a volunteer for the South of England. We need a volunteers for the North of the Island (Worded Carefully here).

 

Second Task- When the dust has settled and the poo has stopped flying look again at what started all of this.

 

Thanks

 

Chris

 

LASSITUDE- (noun) Tiredness and apathy: a state of weariness accompanied by listlessness or apathy[15th century. Via French from Latin lassitudo , from lassus 'weary'.]

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I hope we are not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater because if we do not form some kind of organisation in however loose a form it may take the kind of problems we have just had may well recur with the loss of further hard working people.We DO need some way forward because some time in the near future we will have to deal with large landowners.For this we will need to be able to call on skills that Tim and June have already developed-we should not have to constantly re-invent the wheel.Of course there will always be dissenters whatever way forward.I am sure that GAGB was set up with the best intentions and that it can evolve in a democratic manner and serve the small but growing geocaching community well.

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quote:
Originally posted by Slytherin:

If there is support for a regional split I would be happy to cover the north of the country, with DodgyDaveD doing the south.


That's great news! I think you're both nuts wanting the job (sorry, does that count as offensive? icon_wink.gif ), but you have my utmost respect and support!

quote:
North of the Trent and Mersey Canal (Arbitrary and debatable, moveable feast?), South of said Waterway.

Ah, but who does the approval when D&P place a "swimmers only" cache slap bang in the middle? icon_wink.gif

Presumably, if a third person came along wanting to be part of the team, the movable feast would be sufficiently mobile to accommodate them?

 

One thing, though... Being born and bred in St.Albans, I always understood that "the North" was somewhere up by Luton. Where is this "Mersey" place anyway? Is it right up as far north as Milton Keynes? icon_smile.gif

 

GeocacheUK - resources for the UK Geocaching community.

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quote:
Originally posted by el10t:

Yes its being slept on while all the useful comments that have been made on this forum are thought about.

 

Rich

_mobilis in mobili_


 

Often "sleeping on it" is the best thing that can happen... and often you end up with something that is far better than the original idea.

 

The most important 'message' here is that the founders have not 'thrown out the idea' of a UK ? english / whatever geocaching society / association / club.

 

Paul

 

My wife uses a cache box to take her sandwiches to work... how odd!

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Well done Dodgy Dave icon_cool.gif Way to go kidder!! I'm so glad you're willing to be moderator/southern admin here!

 

If we're voting then I'm all in favour of Slytherin and Chris & Maria being moderators/admins for the North too. Never met them, of course, but have read enough of their posts to be very happy about their nominations too.

 

Good luck to you all (I think you may need it!)

 

I'll get me coat

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quote:
Originally posted by Omally:

Chris n Maria: many of your posts are very well reasoned and even handed. If it comes to the vote, you get mine as well.


Maria says "is that mine or Chris's posts?" icon_smile.gif

 

First of we are surprised to be nominated (Especially by LiS who has actually met us icon_biggrin.gif)

 

and we have to disapoint MaryE and say that Essex is not in the north.

 

We would be prepared to take on admin role but only only in support of (not instead of) Dodgy Dave - who gets our nomination. We don't have huge amounts of time to do approvals but can keep an eye on the forums most days.

 

So I suppose the answer is a Yes we will stand (but their are better candidates out there).

 

Chris

 

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

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quote:
Originally posted by Chris n Maria:

... We would be prepared to take on admin role ...


 

Seconded!

 

Motion carried

 

Tig your it!!

 

When can you start?

 

[practice]

navicache

Buxleys

Bugger

my opinion is ....

[/practice]

 

Seriously,

Well done to the volunteers

 

Lance

It's dark and we're wearing sunglasses.

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quote:

 

We would be prepared to take on admin role but only only in support of (not instead of) Dodgy Dave - who gets our nomination. We don't have huge amounts of time to do approvals but can keep an eye on the forums most days.

 

So I suppose the answer is a Yes we will stand (but their are better candidates out there).

 

Chris

 

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

 

Cachers,

 

I do not know if this is the correct way to do this, but here goes.......

 

It would seem to be appropriate if someone in our community would be prepared to approach Groundspeak and suggest that:

 

a) My Self, dodgydaved

:) Team Slytherin

c) Chris 'n' Maria..........and

d) Ideally a cacher or cachers to look after the interest of our Celtic (ie Scots, Irish and Cornish) friends if they so wish.

 

........?

 

dodgydaved

 

I'm NOT lost, I know exactly where I am, I'm here!

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I think we should start a new thread, to fully discuss this idea of having regional cache approvers. When it comes to moderating the forums, then having regional moderators is less important. The forum moderators should only be removing offensive, sexually explicit, libellous and spam postings. The moderators should take no part in controlling the course of a discussion thread. Any new moderators should have no great urge to either support or dissuade the creation of Geocaching societies.

 

Having a set of regional approvers is a great idea. The division of Britain into, Scotland, England (You English louts icon_wink.gif can discuss what regions you want, if any), Wales and Northern Ireland, would be good.

 

The approvers can then discuss, between them, the rules by which they approve caches. However they shouldn't try to use their position to impose any association, they should just approve caches, nothing more nothing less.

 

We’ve had a good (not good as in good, good as in thorough) clear out, so let’s not rush into appointing new moderators/approvers until we’ve discussed what we want or expect from them. Then once we’ve some consensus, the new moderators/approvers will know where they stand and we as geocachers will know what we can expect of them. This should stop the arguments that have cause such ill feeling within the community.

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quote:

Team Paradise wrote:

 

Let's just get them on board and running... we can 'discuss' all you like in the coming weeks/months.


 

Caches are still being approved and the forums are still functioning. Geocaching in the UK isn't going to stop. However if we rush into appointing new moderators and approvers, in a few months time we maybe in a similar situation again.

 

Any new moderators/approvers will probably do an excellent job from the start, but we don't have to hurry appointing them.

 

Question: Would Groundspeak accept the forum's recommendations for a new set of moderators?

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Just to stick my oar in..

 

It doesn't work like this..

 

You don't have specific areas to cope with.. you have one.. UK + isles and Gibraltar..

 

OK! saying OK.. I'll look after Scotland.. but with the rate Scotland puts in caches ( no offence meant) that approver will be sitting on his butt for most of the time..

 

You either take on the job oas approver or you dont.

 

In US most approvers look after a state. most of which are near enough the size of UK.. They don't split it up..

 

As long as caches conform to the guide lines.. Then they should be approved in order of precedent in que..

 

Remember you may also be asked to approve caches elsewhere.. that does include from here to timbucktoo and then some..

 

Just letting you know.. icon_biggrin.gif

 

Moss the Boss... Sorta

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I wanna be rep for Gibraltar! *jumps up and down in ridiculous manner* icon_smile.gif

 

Seriously though, I speak only for myself (other half is now safely at work 60 miles away!), when I say that I will behave on the forums/fora and try to tread more carefully in the future.

 

This whole situ has made me physically ill this week and I want everyone to be able to continue enjoying Geocaching and the forums. Please!

 

Sam (who will be taking the fuse out of the PC plug the next time her other half decides to stay up late using her PC & making a new log-in name for himself to continue the bitterness icon_frown.gif )

 

~ Love many, trust few, learn to paddle your own Canoe ~

 

~ We can't run away for ever ... but theres nothing wrong with getting a good head start ~

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quote:
In US most approvers look after a state. most of which are near enough the size of UK.. They don't split it up..

 

And the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is made up of two states, one principality and one province. So why can't we have one approver per state.

 

I am sure that the U.K. as a whole will soon be seeing more new cache placements, than any but the most populous of the U.S. states. Therefore having several U.K. approvers maybe a good option.

 

Having more that one (T & J where two) U.K. cache approver would guard against the current situation, of having none. Having regionally independent approvers would mean that we wouldn't have a mass resignation over a matter that only effecting one region.

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quote:
Originally posted by Meriadoc:

quote:
In US most approvers look after a state. most of which are near enough the size of UK.. They don't split it up..

 

And the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is made up of two states, one principality and one province. So why can't we have one approver per state.

 

I am sure that the U.K. as a whole will soon be seeing more new cache placements, than any but the most populous of the U.S. states. Therefore having several U.K. approvers maybe a good option.

 

Having more that one (T & J where two) U.K. cache approver would guard against the current situation, of having none. Having regionally independent approvers would mean that we wouldn't have a mass resignation over a matter that only effecting one region.


 

Do you think that GC.com will actually go to the extent of setting up a system that covers England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales.???

 

Going back 18 months.. they did set up a one for Ireland.. it didn't survive..

 

And please .. don't get perdantic.. only leads to antaganisim and flaming..

 

I've been here a lot longer than you.. belive me I know what I'm talking about..

 

Pure observation.. not getting into a flame war..

 

Moss the Boss... Sorta

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quote:
Originally posted by Meriadoc:

 

However if we rush into appointing new moderators and approvers, in a few months time we maybe in a similar situation again.

 


 

I would think it unlikely. I've been hanging around these fora since not long after I started geocaching the best part of 2 years ago. We have lost moderators before but this situation was instigated by a different action to normal. It did however result in the same reasons for the loss of the mods and approvers, which is basically personal attacks. We will of course lose the new team, or any team in the future, if someone decides, for whatever reason, to go on the attack against them.

 

We can hang on to our admin side if we also accept thier independence when we are on the receiving end of thier "justice", and not just assuming they have hidden agendas or are vindictive. I am assuming that for the moment everyone is agreeing that the moderators, when they have thier moderators hats on, do nothing to be partisan to any view being expressed.

 

quote:
The forum moderators should only be removing offensive, sexually explicit, libellous and spam postings. The moderators should take no part in controlling the course of a discussion thread.

 

I agree to a point. I feel they should control the course of a thread if such thread is being used as a weapon, or to be divisive, which I think are slightly different to the items above. There is one other suggestion which I will make at the end of the post.

 

We all have a part to play in the moderation of this site and the clue is in the word moderation. People should be entirely allowed to express their views and ideas, however radical, within the bounds mentioned, but they should be posted in a balanced and well moderated way rather than some of the hysterical, flaming, overtly agressive ways we have seen both recently and previously when contentious issues have been raised.

 

When these things happen, if various posters want to lose their heads, they should not blame the moderators if they choose to chop them off.

 

I mentioned earlier a suggestion, although I suppose really it's a question. Why do we allow anonymous posts by people hiding behind cover names? Many cachers who have posted on several threads have admitted to using nom-de-plumes. If you can't put your normal "name" to a post then perhaps you shouldn't be making it. I would be all for these posts being deleted unless a moderator had pre-approved the anonymity of the poster. Censorship? Yes, I guess it is, but as most, (99%?) of the anonymous posts are there to cause or prolong trouble, I don't think we would be any the worse for their absence. Rather along the lines of the action hydee took.

 

None of the comments I have made above are directed at any party that has been involved in the "discussions" of the last few days but have been made merely in the hope that we don't have to go through yet another war in the future.

 

Finding your caches - Losing my marbles.

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quote:
Originally posted by Meriadoc:

Having regionally independent approvers would mean that we wouldn't have a mass resignation over a matter that only effecting one region.


 

As the system stands at the moment, and Moss is right in as much as it is unlikely that Scotland, Nothern Ireland and Wales will have their own listings, therefore the moderators, even where they are geographically seperated, will no doubt continue to work closely together to try to have a consistency in the way they apply their moderation. The problem thus arises that if you attack one they all feel attacked. We haven't just lost moderators from Hants. We lost Moss Trooper as well.

 

Can someone else post soemthing I can reply to so it doesn't look like I'm just attacking our resident Scottish Nationalist! icon_wink.gif

 

Then again it's 1.30 a.m. so anyone with an ounce of sense will be in bed. icon_biggrin.gif

 

Finding your caches - Losing my marbles.

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quote:

Originally posted by kennamatic

 

As the system stands at the moment, and Moss is right in as much as it is unlikely that Scotland, Nothern Ireland and Wales will have their own listings


 

Hopefully this will be my last post of the night, before I retire to my slumber. I am going to be very pedantic here, but the above quote should include England as well. Without Scotland, there is technically no United Kingdom. icon_biggrin.gif

 

I now fully expect "Moss Trooper", to kidnap and torture me in the depths of Hexham Goal. icon_wink.gif

 

Enough baiting the Riever.

 

While it would be nice to have some diversity of location, when it comes to moderator/approver, if there doesn't exist north of the border any willing or experienced individual then an all-English crew will have to suffice. I would volunteer myself although I haven't the necessary Geocaching experience under my belt, and would thus probably do a terrible job.

 

While re-reading the thread it became apparent that 3 groups/people have volunteered to become moderators. Wouldn't it also be useful to start a new thread "Moderators Wanted" advertising for new moderators and stating what their duties (Groundspeak point of view) would be? We should then wait a week in the case that any would be moderators are on holiday.

 

[This message was edited by Meriadoc on May 15, 2003 at 06:37 PM.]

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