Release Notes (New Attributes) - August 31, 2020

[Keystone]

If the challenge cache attribute is added to a cache that is not a challenge cache, the attribute needs to be removed.  Your local Community Volunteer Reviewer can assist with this if informal efforts within the community do not lead to correction of the error.

[+brendan714]

5 minutes ago, Keystone said:

If the challenge cache attribute is added to a cache that is not a challenge cache, the attribute needs to be removed.  Your local Community Volunteer Reviewer can assist with this if informal efforts within the community do not lead to correction of the error.

That could end up being a lot of work for reviewers. I know of a bunch of caches that incorrectly have the SCUBA gear required attribute and/or climbing gear required attribute, but require no special gear at all. And the community / reviewers don't seem to care or do anything about it. 

Won't a challenge cache attribute or bonus cache attribute eventually have the same problem? 

[Keystone]

My post did not talk about any attribute except for the Challenge Cache attribute, and the guidance provided should be limited to the four corners of my post.  Reviewers generally do not have jurisdiction over the correct use of attributes.  There are existing exceptions, such as use of the Wheelchair Accessible and Wireless Receiver Required attributes.  The Challenge Cache attribute is part of that list of exceptions. 

[+mustakorppi]

4 hours ago, Keystone said:

Use of the power trail attribute is completely within the Cache Owner's discretion.

Repeating my question, is any help planned for the CO to make that decision? And for cachers to understand what they’re filtering for when searching with that attribute?

Asking because unlike most attributes, ”power trail” is geocaching slang and people new to the hobby will not be familiar with it. 

 

[+thebruce0]

Whenever searching by attributes I always take results with a grain of salt. Even for relatively automated ones. Mis-attributed challenge caches will be just another type of cache that'll require another visual verification if it's really an issue while making caching plans. Shouldn't be too hard to determine almost immediately if it's really a challenge cache or not. The attribute at least is another property that makes it, generally speaking, easier. 

[+brendan714]

4 minutes ago, Keystone said:

My post did not talk about any attribute except for the Challenge Cache attribute, and the guidance provided should be limited to the four corners of my post.  Reviewers generally do not have jurisdiction over the correct use of attributes.  There are existing exceptions, such as use of the Wheelchair Accessible and Wireless Receiver Required attributes.  The Challenge Cache attribute is part of that list of exceptions. 

I see. In my opinion, an icon would be better than an attribute for challenges since a reviewer would review it and then it would become permanent and unchangeable. 

 

I can see people who don't know any better / newbies /  dirt disturbers / adding the challenge cache and/or bonus cache attribute to a cache that is not a challenge or bonus. 

 

Case in point; the cache in my city that is already incorrectly attributed, all of 8 hours into this new release. 

 

Just sayin', an icon wouldn't have that problem. 

[Keystone]

8 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

Repeating my question, is any help planned for the CO to make that decision? And for cachers to understand what they’re filtering for when searching with that attribute?

Asking because unlike most attributes, ”power trail” is geocaching slang and people new to the hobby will not be familiar with it. 

 

 

In introducing the new Power Trail attribute, there is no attempt to define or regulate what constitutes a "power trail."  No CO is forced to use the new attribute, although reviewers may recommend its usage for new power trails.  Unlike the Challenge Cache attribute, there will be no formal effort to reach back and force the application of the attribute retroactively.

 

This might be a good time for someone to start a new thread in the Geocaching Topics forum asking "What constitutes a Power Trail?" now that the new attribute is available.  Debating that definition is not on-topic to this Release Notes thread. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Keystone

[+mustakorppi]

35 minutes ago, Keystone said:

In introducing the new Power Trail attribute, there is no attempt to define or regulate what constitutes a "power trail." 

I fully understand not wanting to regulate this. And I can understand not wanting to write a strict definition too. But if you can’t even give a rough explanation of the concept to new players, then perhaps it shouldn’t be an ”official” part of the hobby. Using slang that you refuse to explain is just being exclusionist. 

[Keystone]

I am certainly capable of providing a personal view on the consensus definition of a "power trail," but not in my capacity as a Community Volunteer Reviewer who is posting official answers in a Release Notes thread.  I was trying to be helpful, but within the constraints of my position.  Thanks for understanding.

[+pinkunicorn]

1 hour ago, Keystone said:

If the challenge cache attribute is added to a cache that is not a challenge cache, the attribute needs to be removed.  Your local Community Volunteer Reviewer can assist with this if informal efforts within the community do not lead to correction of the error.

Will that happen to other similar errors, like the Scuba attributes on the ET Highway trail, as well?

[Keystone]

Just now, pinkunicorn said:

Will that happen to other similar errors, like the Scuba attributes on the ET Highway trail, as well?

I already answered that question in a prior post. 

[+ErewashPaddler]

6 hours ago, qbee37 said:

Exactly what is a biltema cache?

I was wondering that myself - but a bit of Googling found the answer. It is a cache very high up that you don't climb for, instead using something like a fishing rod to retrieve it.

[+Wizard_Speed_Time]

Thank you a lot. Great changes. 

A small step for a man...

[+Vooruit!]

8 hours ago, BWJM said:

It would be nice to be able to use the geochecker attribute for caches that use other geocheckers such as Certitudes which are more feature-rich than the built-in geochecker.

 

I fully agree. When filtering for this attribute, people don't care what kind of checker (Groundspeak/Certitude/GeoCheck/...) is used, they're just looking for puzzle caches that allow their solve attempts to be checked. I'm all for adding this attribute automatically for caches that use the built-in checker, but please make it an option for other mysteries as well.

[+Vooruit!]

Also, now that challenges have their own attribute, are there any plans for dropping the mandatory 'challenge' in challenge cache titles as well?

[+TheVoytekBear]

11 hours ago, Geocaching HQ said:

 

 

Geocaching.com solution checker attribute

 

If you own a Mystery Cache and have added the Geocaching.com solution checker to your cache page, your cache page will now also show the Geocaching.com solution checker attribute.

 

 

 

I'm happy we've got updates but limiting the checker attribute only to the built in checker seems unfair. For one, it's a blow to all the other checker creators out there, and also you are excluding the caches where an external checker is needed, e.g. because it's part of the puzzle, or the location is to obvious for the hint to be given before solving the task. Please reconsider this to allow the manual selection of the attribute.

[+roquetex]

Now we have a new attribute that we do not know in which geocache we should add until HQ explains us from how many geocaches is considered a power trail. 
There are guidelines for everything except this. I think it is not difficult to say a number!

[+arisoft]

6 minutes ago, roquetex said:

Now we have a new attribute that we do not know in which geocache we should add until HQ explains us from how many geocaches is considered a power trail. 
There are guidelines for everything except this. I think it is not difficult to say a number!

 

I have seen a short power trail consisting only 2 caches. I think that this is the absolute minimum for a trail. If your trail is basically intended only to inflate the number of finds you should consider adding this attribute.

[+Visyl]

Where is it say that Bonus Cache are always Mystery caches ? 

My Labcache bonus is a multicache. It has been published so I guess it is on with the Guidelines.

I have several Bonus which are not Mysterys. I have multis, Letter boxes et Wherigos. 

The fact that mysteries are often choose to make a Bonus always seems weird to me because mysterys are supposed To be solved at home not on the field.

Didn't know there where a rule about that.

[+arisoft]

11 minutes ago, Visyl said:

My Labcache bonus is a multicache.

 

This is hard to believe. Must be an error.

 

11 minutes ago, Visyl said:

Where is it say that Bonus Cache are always Mystery caches ? 

 

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.phppg=kb.chapter&id=127&pgid=927

Quote

2.17. Bonus caches

A bonus cache is a Mystery Cache for which you have to find clues in other caches.

 

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.phppg=kb.chapter&id=127&pgid=927pgid=822

Quote

When you add a stamp to your cache, the cache type changes to Letterbox Hybrid but the guidelines for the underlying cache type still apply. The only exceptions are Wherigo Caches, challenge caches, and bonus caches.

 

I have seen these guidelines for a while. May be some reviewers have forgot them when accepting bonus caches for other types.

Edited September 1, 2020 by arisoft

[+clappy]

To everyone stating a Bonus has to be a Mystery: This may be in the guidelines, however, it is handled differently.

For example, a search in Western Europe (Filter Multi, Letterbox and the word "Bonus") yields a lot. And even some very recent AL-Bonus caches.

https://www.geocaching.com/play/map?lat=50.52041218671903&lng=7.767333984375&zoom=7&asc=true&sort=distance&ct=3%2C5&cn=Bonus

 

Even given the fact that not all of these are "real Bonus caches" (and only have the word in the title), still, quite a number are in fact bonus caches. And that also happens in the US: GC8NC24 (Published 27 Aug), GC856N7 (Published 19 Aug), others in Denver, Los Angeles, etc.

So, what will happen here?

Edited September 1, 2020 by clappy

[+acdmcmstr07]

Now that the update seems to have gone out, I'm wondering why the Geocaching app (Android 9 version) only allows for searching a small number (29 that I'm seeing) of the positive attributes. There is a challenge cache that I recently finished in my area for collecting these and I've found that searching for filtered caches is much easier on the app than the mobile website map. Is there a reason for pared down app capability? Thanks!

[+sernikk]

10 minutes ago, acdmcmstr07 said:

Now that the update seems to have gone out, I'm wondering why the Geocaching app (Android 9 version) only allows for searching a small number (29 that I'm seeing) of the positive attributes. There is a challenge cache that I recently finished in my area for collecting these and I've found that searching for filtered caches is much easier on the app than the mobile website map. Is there a reason for pared down app capability? Thanks!

There is a topic for changes made in the app:

 

20 minutes ago, clappy said:

To everyone stating a Bonus has to be a Mystery: This may be in the guidelines, however, it is handled differently.

For example, a search in Western Europe (Filter Multi, Letterbox and the word "Bonus") yields a lot. And even some very recent AL-Bonus caches.

https://www.geocaching.com/play/map?lat=50.52041218671903&lng=7.767333984375&zoom=7&asc=true&sort=distance&ct=3%2C5&cn=Bonus

 

Even given the fact that not all of these are "real Bonus caches" (and only have the word in the title), still, quite a number are in fact bonus caches. And that also happens in the US: GC8NC24 (Published 27 Aug), GC856N7 (Published 19 Aug), others in Denver, Los Angeles, etc.

So, what will happen here?

 

That is true, there are a lot of non-mystery bonuses. I can imagine a Letterbox as a bonus, because the only change is the stamp. I really hope, that HQ will consider changing guidelines and letting Letterboxes be out there as a bonus. I don't see a reason why this should not be the case. Funny that this came out because of the new attribute

 

But I don't understand how Wherigo or Multi can be a bonus cache. It has nothing to do with the concept of a bonus then. It may be as a series final, but only additionally.

Edited September 1, 2020 by sernikk

[+Visyl]

25 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

This is hard to believe. Must be an error.

 

 

Well there is many errors then ... Lots of Bonus cache are multis or letter boxes. And as it have been said, many of them are really recent.

[+mustakorppi]

1 hour ago, Keystone said:

I am certainly capable of providing a personal view on the consensus definition of a "power trail," but not in my capacity as a Community Volunteer Reviewer who is posting official answers in a Release Notes thread.  I was trying to be helpful, but within the constraints of my position.  Thanks for understanding.

I understand you are a volunteer and I appreciate the work you do. By "you" in my previous post I'm referring to GS as a whole. My previous comments in this thread are meant for the people who have decided the content of the official answers, and have the power to decide what goes into help center, guidelines and other informative sections of the site. With all due respect to both you and arisoft, any individual's opinion posted on these forums is not a replacement for a help center article.

[+Visyl]

Just now, sernikk said:

 

But I don't understand how Wherigo or Multi can be a bonus cache. It has nothing to do with the concept of a bonus then. It may be as a series final, but only additionally.

 

You collect clues at each stage (traditional caches along the way or stages from the AL) so it is exactly the same thing than a multi cache. There is nothing to solve, how is that a Mystery cache ?!

[+mustakorppi]

27 minutes ago, arisoft said:

I have seen these guidelines for a while. May be some reviewers have forgot them when accepting bonus caches for other types.

The contents of that Help Center article is perhaps off topic for this thread, but I think it's obvious why a reviewer wouldn't immediately see how it applies to Adventure Lab Bonus Caches. An Adventure Lab is not a cache (surely?), so does the article even apply? If an individual stage is considered "cache" (it gives a find so this could be argued), then Adventure Labs where stages have to be found in specific order should not have bonus caches because of the daisy chaining rule. But there's been no rulings forbidding that so perhaps a stage isn't a cache either. Point being, if the Bonus Cache article in Help Center is meant to cover Adventure Lab Bonus Caches, it should be clarified on how it applies.

 

(Also your links to the article don't currently work.)

[+sernikk]

12 minutes ago, Visyl said:

 

Well there is many errors then ... Lots of Bonus cache are multis or letter boxes. And as it have been said, many of them are really recent.

It may be the case, that the "bonus" is only in the name, and the cache itself don't require any data from previous caches.

 

9 minutes ago, Visyl said:

 

You collect clues at each stage (traditional caches along the way or stages from the AL) so it is exactly the same thing than a multi cache. There is nothing to solve, how is that a Mystery cache ?!

Woah, stop right there. "so it is exactly the same thing than a multi cache"

No it is not, because it is a part of something different, and finding other caches can't be a part of a multi. I see that you find the name "Mystery Cache" very confusing, because you think this has to be a mystery. Reality is, a Mystery Cache can be a quiz or puzzle to solve, but it is also there to fill the gap in the cachetypes. Everything which does not belong anywhere -> is a Mystery Cache. In this case it is stated as a bonus cache, to not make a new cachetype. Exactly like with challenges.

 

It is worth seeing this from a global perspective. I can't imagine bonus caches in 4 or more different cachetypes spread across the planet, because every owner is goin to have a different interpretation. From the other hand, maybe they shouldn't be bonus caches in the first place, and just... caches?

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by sernikk

[+barefootjeff]

18 minutes ago, Visyl said:

 

You collect clues at each stage (traditional caches along the way or stages from the AL) so it is exactly the same thing than a multi cache. There is nothing to solve, how is that a Mystery cache ?!

 

A multi is supposed to have something to find at the listed coordinates, namely the first waypoint. I don't see how that would fit with the concept of a bonus cache where the coordinates are only revealed once you've completed the associated task (found other caches or completed the AL).

[+IceColdUK]

12 hours ago, Geocaching HQ said:

If you own a bonus cache, please add the bonus cache attribute to your existing or future hide so that other geocachers can filter for them easily. Since bonus caches are always Mystery Caches, the attribute is only available for Mystery Cache types.

 

It seems to have been established that, despite the guidelines, this is not the case.  For example, I have a bonus cache (under a different account) that is a Letterbox Hybrid - I thought adding a custom stamp to the bonus cache was a nice touch.  (Clearly, I hadn't read the guidelines carefully enough!)

 

Will HQ consider relaxing this rule?  Or do we just accept that not all bonus caches can have the attribute?

[+Visyl]

25 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

A multi is supposed to have something to find at the listed coordinates, namely the first waypoint. I don't see how that would fit with the concept of a bonus cache where the coordinates are only revealed once you've completed the associated task (found other caches or completed the AL).

 

Well, in the case of AL Bonus, it's simple, posted coordinates are at the first stage of the AL and other stages are listed in the multi cache. 

I have an another one where you have to look at something on the field at the first stage and then collect clues in every cache to get the multi bonus coordinates.

 

But I understand what you say for other kind of Bonus caches. I'm just really supprised that I never eared a word about that from the reviewers when I published my Bonus Caches that are not Mystery.

[+sernikk]

15 minutes ago, Visyl said:

 

Well, in the case of AL Bonus, it's simple, posted coordinates are at the first stage of the AL and other stages are listed in the multi cache. 

I have an another one where you have to look at something on the field at the first stage and then collect clues in every cache to get the multi bonus coordinates.

 

But I understand what you say for other kind of Bonus caches. I'm just really supprised that I never eared a word about that from the reviewers when I published my Bonus Caches that are not Mystery.

 

The fact that you didn't hear about this from the reviewer is really astonishing. In theory this cache should not be published. However, cases like that may show a different perspective on some things (for example Letterbox Bonus caches). I don't think multi as a bonus is a good idea, but as you have one, you should be able to add the attribute "Bonus cache". It is not your fault that you can't.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by sernikk

[Keystone]

15 hours ago, Geocaching HQ said:

Any posts in this thread should relate to features in this release. Comments unrelated to the release may be removed. Please direct unrelated comments to other appropriate threads. Thanks!

 

The following subjects should be discussed in separate threads:

1. What is a bonus cache?
2. Why are bonus caches always Mystery Caches? (And, "I know of a bonus cache that is not a Mystery Cache.")
3. What constitutes a power trail?

[Keystone]

4 hours ago, Vooruit! said:

Also, now that challenges have their own attribute, are there any plans for dropping the mandatory 'challenge' in challenge cache titles as well?

 

No.  The English word "Challenge" must continue to be in the cache title of every Challenge Cache.

[+niraD]

8 hours ago, mustakorppi said:

I fully understand not wanting to regulate this. And I can understand not wanting to write a strict definition too. But if you can’t even give a rough explanation of the concept to new players, then perhaps it shouldn’t be an ”official” part of the hobby. Using slang that you refuse to explain is just being exclusionist. 

What does "Recommended for kids" mean? What is a "Difficult climb" or a "Significant hike"? What is "Recommended for tourists"? There are plenty of attributes that Groundspeak hasn't defined for us. Somehow, we still manage to use them.

[+jellis]

I didn’t see an answer to the CHECKER attribute.  Why is it only for GC checker and not others?

[+Wizard_Speed_Time]

5 minutes ago, jellis said:

I didn’t see an answer to the CHECKER attribute.  Why is it only for GC checker and not others?

I think that it is due to Geocaching.com wants we use mainly GC Checker.

[+jellis]

1 minute ago, Picarax said:

I think that it is due to Geocaching.com wants we use mainly GC Checker.

I will if they change their checker for the same options like keywords. 

[+thebruce0]

1 minute ago, Picarax said:

7 minutes ago, jellis said:

I didn’t see an answer to the CHECKER attribute.  Why is it only for GC checker and not others?

I think that it is due to Geocaching.com wants we use mainly GC Checker.

 

Nah. HQ knows there are others, especially which are not numerical coordinate checkers, and knows they have legitimate, practical value to the community. Otherwise they wouldn't be allowed. It's a different reason. HQ's not always the enemy

 

[+jellis]

1 minute ago, thebruce0 said:

 

Nah. HQ knows there are others, especially which are not numerical coordinate checkers, and knows they have legitimate, practical value to the community. Otherwise they wouldn't be allowed. It's a different reason. HQ's not always the enemy

 

Would to be too complicated or copyrighted?

[+Wizard_Speed_Time]

3 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

 

Nah. HQ knows there are others, especially which are not numerical coordinate checkers, and knows they have legitimate, practical value to the community. Otherwise they wouldn't be allowed. It's a different reason. HQ's not always the enemy

 

I agree with you, HQ is not the enemy.

They are only a corporation that needs to give us the best service in order we play geocaching many years...

On the other hand they want to make their developments profitable. 

 

They should try to improve gc checker

[+thebruce0]

Just now, Picarax said:

They should try to improve gc checker

Topic for a different thread.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

14 hours ago, Keystone said:

 

Use of the power trail attribute is completely within the Cache Owner's discretion.

 

Attributes are never going to be able to characterize caches with 100% accuracy and that's okay.  Even if some COs flag their caches with a PT attribute that's better than what we had previously

[+NYPaddleCacher]

It's great that we can filter by attributes on the search and maps pages.  Unless I'm missing something it doesn't look like we can filter on negative attributes.  For example, we can filter for caches with the "available in winter" attribute but not for caches with the "not available in winter" attribute.  For some attributes, the negative attribute is more useful.  We also can't use attributes to exclude caches.  For example, someone that doesn't have access to a boat might want to exclude caches with the "boat required" attribute.  

[+Wizard_Speed_Time]

7 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

It's great that we can filter by attributes on the search and maps pages.  Unless I'm missing something it doesn't look like we can filter on negative attributes.  For example, we can filter for caches with the "available in winter" attribute but not for caches with the "not available in winter" attribute.  For some attributes, the negative attribute is more useful.  We also can't use attributes to exclude caches.  For example, someone that doesn't have access to a boat might want to exclude caches with the "boat required" attribute.  

You can talk about that topic here:
https://forums.geocaching.com/GC/index.php?/topic/358303-release-notes-website-attribute-search-filters-august-31-2020/&tab=comments#comment-5851476

[+technetium]

Hello, This is a useful addition. This will make selecting caches for a cache trip more easy. Thank you. A question and a bug report.

 

Question: Will the AR Cache attribute also be added with a script to the AR caches?

 

Bug report:  The api call for attributes returns the URL for non existing gif images. On the cache pages these icons are represented by .png images. Please also create the .gif images or update the response of the api call to return the correct urls.

 

Tc

[+Simrebel]

for  Geocaching.com solution checker attribute  ,  what about 3rd party checkers?

 

[+Isonzo Karst]

1 hour ago, jellis said:

I didn’t see an answer to the CHECKER attribute.  Why is it only for GC checker and not others?

I suspect because the Geocaching.com app does not show the Geocaching.com checker. Now, the attribute will tell a user who sees a Mystery in the app that the checker exists.  All other checkers are added to the page via html, and hence apparent in the the app.

[+MtnProf]

I love these changes. Searching will be much easier. I especially like the idea of knowing which mystery caches are field puzzles. 

[+mustakorppi]

1 hour ago, niraD said:

What does "Recommended for kids" mean? What is a "Difficult climb" or a "Significant hike"? What is "Recommended for tourists"? There are plenty of attributes that Groundspeak hasn't defined for us. Somehow, we still manage to use them.

I have addressed the difference at least twice previously in this thread. Also, you have been geocaching for over a decade so your we is utterly irrelevant to the concern I raised.