A DNF for a hint. Fair trade or bad form?

June 28, 2013

Last night I received an email from a cacher asking for a hint for a cache I recently placed on a college campus. The cacher claimed to have been searching for it for days, but I was unaware of said search and lack of success because they did not log a DNF. :-)

After realizing this cacher, with about 350 finds, has not placed a cache of their own, I made the following deal: log your DNF and I will give you a hint. I politely explained why this was important for the CO.

Am I a Scrooge? ;-)

2k · June 28, 2013

Wearing my CO hat (as opposed to just PAFs), I have asked for folks to log their DNFs before giving a hint. Course, they could just delete their DNF afterwards, but I hear ya, I have done the same.

1.8k · June 28, 2013

I too prefer to see a DNF before I cough up a hint.

1k · June 28, 2013

Another vote for a a DNF first.

Andrew

11.6k · June 28, 2013

Am I a Scrooge? ;-)

Do you specify on the cache page, "Leave a DNF log, and I will provide a hint"? If so, it's clear that's what the deal is.

7.5k · June 28, 2013

I have no problem with a CO having a policy of giving hints only to people that have logged DNFs. I don't think it's the best form to single out a newbie for special treatment, though. I would have talked about DNFs while giving him the hint rather than making the DNF a prerequisite. I'm more interested in newbies understanding DNFs than in forcing them to file them.

June 28, 2013

I have no problem with a CO having a policy of giving hints only to people that have logged DNFs. I don't think it's the best form to single out a newbie for special treatment, though. I would have talked about DNFs while giving him the hint rather than making the DNF a prerequisite. I'm more interested in newbies understanding DNFs than in forcing them to file them.

yuppers on what he said^^^...to answer the thread forum question - methinks it's a fair trade...

however, qualify the hint to the newbie with positive advice, encouraging him to treat geocaching with respect,

perhaps offering help whenever they have any questions, etc...

1.4k · June 28, 2013

I too prefer to see a DNF before I cough up a hint.

Some folks, like maybe.... ^^^^^ this guy, might even cough up a hint at the logging of a DNF without solicitation :grin:

And that's okay too

4.1k · June 28, 2013

Am I a Scrooge? ;-)

Do you specify on the cache page, "Leave a DNF log, and I will provide a hint"? If so, it's clear that's what the deal is.

When I run into this I log a DNF but ignore the cache after that - particularly if this "policy" is disguised as a hint. At that point I think the cache is not meant for people who are traveling or otherwise go out of their way and I probably have no reason to look further. Either provide a hint or not.

Edited June 28, 2013 by geodarts

7.5k · June 28, 2013

I have no problem with a CO having a policy of giving hints only to people that have logged DNFs. I don't think it's the best form to single out a newbie for special treatment, though. I would have talked about DNFs while giving him the hint rather than making the DNF a prerequisite. I'm more interested in newbies understanding DNFs than in forcing them to file them.

+1

Or allow them to post a note if they are more comfortable with a note. The important part for the CO and future finders is that there's some information regarding the difficulty of the hide or possibility that it may be missing.

Edited June 28, 2013 by L0ne R

7.5k · June 28, 2013

Am I a Scrooge? ;-)

Do you specify on the cache page, "Leave a DNF log, and I will provide a hint"? If so, it's clear that's what the deal is.

When I run into this I log a DNF but ignore the cache after that - particularly if this "policy" is disguised as a hint. At that point I think the cache is not meant for people who are traveling or otherwise go out of their way and I probably have no reason to look further. Either provide a hint or not.

That's a very good point. This forces the finder to make a return visit and that may not be possible or convenient. Very good point.

11.6k · June 28, 2013

Am I a Scrooge? ;-)

Do you specify on the cache page, "Leave a DNF log, and I will provide a hint"? If so, it's clear that's what the deal is.

When I run into this I log a DNF but ignore the cache after that - particularly if this "policy" is disguised as a hint. At that point I think the cache is not meant for people who are traveling or otherwise go out of their way and I probably have no reason to look further. Either provide a hint or not.

That's a very good point. This forces the finder to make a return visit and that may not be possible or convenient. Very good point.

So not requesting a DNF results in no DNF, while requesting one also results in no DNF. But for different reasons. :yikes:

3.7k · June 28, 2013

Wow, I've received requests for hints and never hesitated to give one, DNF or no DNF.

Of course, maybe it's a good opportunity to remind them to log their DNFs, but I don't think I'd ever ask them to log their DNF before getting a hint. They've already emailed you and told you they couldn't find it.

11.6k · June 28, 2013

Wow, I've received requests for hints and never hesitated to give one, DNF or no DNF.

Of course, maybe it's a good opportunity to remind them to log their DNFs, but I don't think I'd ever ask them to log their DNF before getting a hint. They've already emailed you and told you they couldn't find it.

If people were logging DNFs, that cacher would know in advance that it's a tricky cache.

June 28, 2013

Wow, I've received requests for hints and never hesitated to give one, DNF or no DNF.

Of course, maybe it's a good opportunity to remind them to log their DNFs, but I don't think I'd ever ask them to log their DNF before getting a hint. They've already emailed you and told you they couldn't find it.

If people were logging DNFs, that cacher would know in advance that it's a tricky cache.

I completely agree. If you’re not prepared to log a DNF for a cache that YOU DIDN’T FIND, then don’t play the game. If I see a cache with a lot of DNFs logged, I’ll generally skip it as I’m fairly new to this whole endeavor. However, I’m also just as peeved when I do hunt for a cache and read the notes later- “finally found on my third trip”, “Found the second time around with XXX cacher” or “Had to call the CO for 6 hints before I was able to find it, fortunately the flashing neon light with ‘cache here’ that he placed especially for me led me in the right direction”.

Man up, hike your skirt and log the DNF. Your 100% find rate only impresses the newbie too inexperienced to know better…

June 28, 2013

Wow, I've received requests for hints and never hesitated to give one, DNF or no DNF.

Of course, maybe it's a good opportunity to remind them to log their DNFs, but I don't think I'd ever ask them to log their DNF before getting a hint. They've already emailed you and told you they couldn't find it.

I see that. However, I concluded a lesson was in order.

Again, not to debate whether or not to log a DNF... obviously, like I have said earlier in this forum, saying you do not find caches is like saying that you do not fart. Obviously, everyone farts.

To only log finds and not DNFs is not only misinformation for the cache owner, but it also portrays a sense of entitlement (not sure how, but it does) and ownership for "everything good, and nothing bad" that I just can't allow :-) Of course, this is only my opinion and I could be totally wrong, but probably not :laughing:

Screwing with people is one of the joys of caching. Ah, to be in control.

7.5k · June 28, 2013

Screwing with people is one of the joys of caching. Ah, to be in control.

I think there's some truth in this jestful comment.

Is it more about wanting a bunch of DNFs in the caches log. What is it about multiple DNFs that you enjoy?

22k · June 28, 2013

It's up to the cacher owner to set the difficulty level, including whether or not they want to give a hint online or from personal contact. The thing is to be consistent, whether it be a newbie visiting from another state or your best friend needing a find that day for a challenge attempt. Be nice to your friends for once.

10.1k · June 28, 2013

Reminds me of a cacher who logged NM on one of my caches.

FLOOD? might be missing as it would have been below the waterline during the Irene Flood .. need checking up on please

My response was:

If you don't bother searching for a cache, don't bother making unwarranted assumptions.

That got

DNF --searched and could not find after quite a while

Maintenance run:

After the concerns about the flooding, and the DNF, Andy Bear and I checked to see if the cache were still there. Yup! Still right where we left it!

I knew it was 15 feet up the hillside. Don't tell me it needs maintenance without acknowledging that you did not find it. I would say the same for a hint. Ya want a hint, log the DNF to tell me that you looked but could not find it.

1.8k · June 28, 2013

I too prefer to see a DNF before I cough up a hint.

Some folks, like maybe.... ^^^^^ this guy, might even cough up a hint at the logging of a DNF without solicitation

And that's okay too

Hi J The Goat:

As J indicated, you log a DNF the hint comes automatically. No request or begging needed.

I want my caches to be found, I am not into the affliction of Geo-torture.

Hey J: All the best to you and yours and the rest of my caching buddies waaaaaaaaaaaaaay down state.

7.5k · June 28, 2013

I too prefer to see a DNF before I cough up a hint.

Some folks, like maybe.... ^^^^^ this guy, might even cough up a hint at the logging of a DNF without solicitation

And that's okay too

Hi J The Goat:

As J indicated, you log a DNF the hint comes automatically. No request or begging needed.

I want my caches to be found, I am not into the affliction of Geo-torture.

Hey J: All the best to you and yours and the rest of my caching buddies waaaaaaaaaaaaaay down state.

If they post a Note, do they get a hint?

June 28, 2013

I too prefer to see a DNF before I cough up a hint.

Some folks, like maybe.... ^^^^^ this guy, might even cough up a hint at the logging of a DNF without solicitation

And that's okay too

Please don't send a hint without first asking the person if they want a hint.

They may want to try again, on their own.

I've had to scold a couple of CO for sending me hints in an email without warning.

1.3k · June 28, 2013

I think it's silly. Provide a hint or don't but drop the "log a DNF first" requirement. If you're willing to give out a hint, the person reaching out for one shouldn't have to jump through more arbitrary hoops just to appease you.

3.7k · June 28, 2013

I too prefer to see a DNF before I cough up a hint.

Some folks, like maybe.... ^^^^^ this guy, might even cough up a hint at the logging of a DNF without solicitation

And that's okay too

Please don't send a hint without first asking the person if they want a hint.

They may want to try again, on their own.

Yeah, I wouldn't want a CO emailing me a hint until I asked for one. I find the more I suffer, the more satisfaction I get from the Find.

3.3k · June 28, 2013

Am I a Scrooge? ;-)

Do you specify on the cache page, "Leave a DNF log, and I will provide a hint"? If so, it's clear that's what the deal is.

When I run into this I log a DNF but ignore the cache after that - particularly if this "policy" is disguised as a hint. At that point I think the cache is not meant for people who are traveling or otherwise go out of their way and I probably have no reason to look further. Either provide a hint or not.

That's a very good point. This forces the finder to make a return visit and that may not be possible or convenient. Very good point.

So not requesting a DNF results in no DNF, while requesting one also results in no DNF. But for different reasons.

And of course a classy cacher will take the hint, make the find, and then in the post thank the CO for the hint and mention that on the previous visit they couldn't find it. Yes, DNF's have their place, but let's not be too stringent. A DNF is most important where is seems clear that the cache is actually lost. An experienced cacher who only has 15 minutes to look for a D4.0 cache may save the "DNF" for his find post on the next visit, and there's not really any harm done. On the other hand, if a good cacher looks for 45 minutes for a D1.5 cache without success, a DNF post is a good idea, because the cache is probably missing.

7.9k · June 28, 2013

Gotta love those 'Found it on the fifth try.' logs, but no previous DNF logged. :blink:

I think I might have suggested a DNF should have been posted when someone sent me a PM asking for help, but I don't remember demanding that a DNF be posted. Maybe I did...not sure...

In any case, people need to be encouraged to log their DNFs, and if they need to be baited in by an extra hint then so be it.

I would like to add that I really despise a posted hint that says 'email me for a hint'. :angry:

I am at the cache site and I can't find it.

I would like to see an actual hint.

I'm not going to sit here and wait to see if you can respond to my email in three minutes.

June 29, 2013

I want to note that I have never made logging a DNF a condition on providing a hint. I want to focus this conversation on the incident I described. I should rephrase the question: "do they deserve a hint if they haven't demonstrated they have worked hard at finding the cache?" A DNF is the only way of verifying... not the best way, but it is all I've got.

To add, if someone ever sent me a hint without me asking, I would be angry :-)

11.6k · June 29, 2013

I should rephrase the question: "do they deserve a hint if they haven't demonstrated they have worked hard at finding the cache?"

I'd weigh the cache difficulty rating, plus whether or not anyone's found it yet (and how long it's gone unfound), and how much of a pest the guy is likely to become if I don't fork over the hint. :anicute:

if someone ever sent me a hint without me asking, I would be angry :-)

I would not be angry at all. For all those caches where I've logged DNFs, Cache Owners please feel free to hint me!!

Edited June 29, 2013 by kunarion

22k · June 29, 2013

Gotta love those 'Found it on the fifth try.' logs, but no previous DNF logged.

yeah well as an active owner I really don't need someone to tell me about every attempt. "One newbie couldn't find it three times."

I better rush out there.

3.7k · June 29, 2013

"do they deserve a hint if they haven't demonstrated they have worked hard at finding the cache?"

Deserve? If someone emails me for a hint, I always email them one. I mean, they've already driven, walked to GZ and searched. That's good enough for me. Actually, even if they ask for a hint in advance of going to GZ because they thought they'd have a hard time, I'd be happy to oblige.

If you really want to be stingy with hints, maybe just don't answer your email. They can always get a hint from another cacher.

22k · June 29, 2013

"do they deserve a hint if they haven't demonstrated they have worked hard at finding the cache?"

Deserve? If someone emails me for a hint, I always email them one. I mean, they've already driven, walked to GZ and searched. That's good enough for me. Actually, even if they ask for a hint in advance of going to GZ because they thought they'd have a hard time, I'd be happy to oblige.

If you really want to be stingy with hints, maybe just don't answer your email. They can always get a hint from another cacher.

Exactly.

11.6k · June 29, 2013

They can always get a hint from another cacher.

The other cacher doesn't even remember where the container is. But they'll approach me at an event and tell me anyway. And don't get me started on whether or not the Cache Owner remembers where the container is.

June 30, 2013

I never even thought about requesting a DNF before giving a hint. Don't consider this to be a "trade" at all.

It happened several times that people got wrong answers when trying to solve puzzles and called me for a hint. The funniest story was with one of my multi-steps (temporarily disabled now). It was a chess puzzle, a pretty easy one but with one clever "addon" that prevented it from being solved in a couple of minutes. Once an unknown guy called me and asked for a hint. He said the puzzle seemed to be too difficult. "Our team spent much time on it. We requested assistance from a master in chess. And he failed. We all failed. Cannot move further. Please help". It was raining outdoors and I felt sorry for a whole team of geocaches getting completely wet and hopeless in a wood. "OK, at what step are you now?" - asked I. - "At the very beginning". - "Did you find the first microcache then?" - "Microcache? Oh, no. We're in our office". I called this story funny because it was highlighted in the cache description: "Please don't try to solve the puzzle before you find the first container". In fact, on this first step a geocacher used to get a small but important change to the published puzzle and he had absolutely no chances to solve the puzzle without it.

People are different. I know guys who will never ask me for any hints. I've got calls from folks who said "pray don't give me a hint - I will tell you my variant, just say if I'm on the right way". There are people who won't call you but will write an insulting log (they blame you for their fail). And there are always people who don't wan't to spend their time and/or to switch their brain on. So, the idea of a "trade" becomes a rather complex task. There will be a whole market created around hints

2.4k · June 30, 2013

I'm glad I read this topic. I'm a newbie, and I didn't realize logging DNF's was so important. :unsure: I just emailed 2 CO's today for hints. One was a request to check on their cache, as there have been several DNF's logged. I also logged it as a DNF. But the other I am planning on going back to find when I get the hint; I thought SOP was that one does NOT log a DNF unless they've given up.

Off to log a DNF on the one I am going to revisit...

1.7k · July 1, 2013

Reminds me of a cacher who logged NM on one of my caches.

FLOOD? might be missing as it would have been below the waterline during the Irene Flood .. need checking up on please

My response was:

If you don't bother searching for a cache, don't bother making unwarranted assumptions.

That got

DNF --searched and could not find after quite a while

Maintenance run:

After the concerns about the flooding, and the DNF, Andy Bear and I checked to see if the cache were still there. Yup! Still right where we left it!

I knew it was 15 feet up the hillside. Don't tell me it needs maintenance without acknowledging that you did not find it. I would say the same for a hint. Ya want a hint, log the DNF to tell me that you looked but could not find it.

Yeah this is the one that gets my goat as well. Couldn't find a cache so posts a Needs Maintenance - because of course, these infallible masters of caching couldn't find it and that means that it's definitely not there and needs me to come out and replace it!

3.3k · July 1, 2013

I usually reply with questions about where and how the other cacher searched for the cache. And I will not hesitate to mention if they have not posted a DNF it is appreciated and expected as part of the history of the cache. I had one cacher who posted a DNF stating "CO would not give me a hint without me posting a DNF." I emailed again and asked for a description of the area searched and methods used. Couldn't provide any because they had never attempted to find the cache, which is a somewhat difficult cammoed micro.

4.5k · July 1, 2013

I think it's silly. Provide a hint or don't but drop the "log a DNF first" requirement. If you're willing to give out a hint, the person reaching out for one shouldn't have to jump through more arbitrary hoops just to appease you.

I don't see any arbitrary hoops here. Hint or no hint, logging a dnf after searching for and not finding is the correct thing to do anyway.

1.3k · July 1, 2013

I think it's silly. Provide a hint or don't but drop the "log a DNF first" requirement. If you're willing to give out a hint, the person reaching out for one shouldn't have to jump through more arbitrary hoops just to appease you.

I don't see any arbitrary hoops here. Hint or no hint, logging a dnf after searching for and not finding is the correct thing to do anyway.

The "I'm going to withhold a hint unless you log a DNF" is arbitrary. Of course, logging your DNF is the correct thing to do...but if they don't, why demand that they do before supplying a hint? That's just petty control issues.

4.5k · July 1, 2013

I think it's silly. Provide a hint or don't but drop the "log a DNF first" requirement. If you're willing to give out a hint, the person reaching out for one shouldn't have to jump through more arbitrary hoops just to appease you.

I don't see any arbitrary hoops here. Hint or no hint, logging a dnf after searching for and not finding is the correct thing to do anyway.

The "I'm going to withhold a hint unless you log a DNF" is arbitrary. Of course, logging your DNF is the correct thing to do...but if they don't, why demand that they do before supplying a hint? That's just petty control issues.

I'll normally give a hint if requested, dnf or not. On the otherhand, i don't see any problem with others asking for a dnf log first. Still no hoops in my opinion, but i suppose that's because i've never been ashamed or scared to post my dnfs.

July 1, 2013

mending_wall just wants people to be honest. As was mentioned, DNFs help create a history for the cache. Also, as has been discussed elsewhere, DNFs are good information to the CO for a number of reasons.

It is a petty control issue, but I very much enjoy being in control. For those of you who live less structured lives, good on ya!

July 1, 2013

A DNF for a hint. Fair trade or bad form?

bad form

As discussed many times informative logs (including DNF's) have some value to the cache owner and others. TFTC is (arguably) looked down upon as a fairly lame log. Requiring/Encouraging "DNF, may I have a hint now?" logs further defeat a CO's anticipation/expectation of good cache specific logs and does nothing for a cache page history.

1.1k · July 1, 2013

if someone ask me for help or a hint or a full reveal

I give them exactly what they want,

I make caches to make people happy, their way

I expect only me to play the game my way..

but yes, I will be a little bit more happy if people used the system the way I expect it was designed

like to log a DNF if they went to GZ, searched and found nothing, it is not that hard to do,

some log nothing, some log all they can, some too little, some too much..

not my problem. but it helps me a bit, if people did it right.

3.8k · July 1, 2013

Last night I received an email from a cacher asking for a hint for a cache I recently placed on a college campus. The cacher claimed to have been searching for it for days, but I was unaware of said search and lack of success because they did not log a DNF. :-)

After realizing this cacher, with about 350 finds, has not placed a cache of their own, I made the following deal: log your DNF and I will give you a hint. I politely explained why this was important for the CO.

Am I a Scrooge? ;-)

My exact way of doing business. +1

July 1, 2013

I don't know why people are afraid of logging a DNF. It is valuable information that the CO and others need to know.

1.8k · July 1, 2013

I don't know why people are afraid of logging a DNF. It is valuable information that the CO and others need to know.

Yes indeed very important information can be shared ... my log from a cache I attempted yesterday.

Dear Cache, YELLOW JACKETS. DANGER WILL ROBINSON!! As I approached your likely hidey spot I could not help but be amused at how the ranchers had employed a public structure to be a component of their fencing project. LOL, LOL. I was concerned about mixing it up with "The Devil's Rope" so I cautiously looked in other spots before looking at the most likely spot. O.K., O.K., O.K. ... well let me see about the most likely spot. Given the nature of "The Devil's Rope" >("barbed wire")< I did not get my usual up close and personal look. Cautiously through the barbed wire using a gloved hand I dove deep into the presumed hidey hole !!!#$%^&*(*&&^%$#@#$%^&&*^%$!!! HOLY CRUD I WAS WRIST DEEP IN YELLOW JACKETS. Yiiiikkkeeeesssssssssss, retreat, retreat, you should have seen it: Da Flier haulin' butt back to the cache-mobile ... a cloud of dust at his feet and a cloud of torqued off yellow jackets in hot pursuit. FEET, DO NOT FAIL ME NOW. Wheeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwww, made back to the safe confines of the cache-mobile. Pant, pant, pant. Many Thanks to the yellow jackets for my morning aerobics. LOL, LOL, LOL

View / Edit Log / Images Upload Image

July 6, 2013

ALERT

This happened, again! And... wait for it... with the same cache! How is that two cachers over the span of a week happen to ask me for a hint without logging the DNF first!?

After reading the above comments, I very much agree with everyone who agrees with me :-) The rest of you, well... you know ;-)

A DNF for a hint. Fair trade or bad form?

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