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memepasmal

Good bye c:geo

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I'm surprised they are not complaining that they can't text their friends, twitter the world and post on facebook all at the same time while driving by caches.

 

Because people who know how to actually use their smartphones do that already, if that's what they want to do. You don't need it all in one app.

 

Whilst driving? No wonder there are so many accidents!

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I get the feeling the people using traditional GPS units don’t like the new players emerging that like to use their smart phones to go caching…. Kind of like the old man on his porch shaking his cane at the youngsters skateboarding down the sidewalk. We should all embrace technology, no matter who’s using it or what it is. It can only bring advances in our world. After all, if it wasn’t for technology geocaching wouldn’t even exist to begin with.

 

Then your feeling would, in most cases I believe, be wrong.

 

I and the other veterans of this game I know that use traditional GPSrs don't have a problem with folks using smartphones or whatever else they want to use. Use a sextant if you want to.

 

The "veterans" have been in this game long enough to see a LOT of changes. Some good, some not so good. We started with GPSrs that only let you manually enter coords and then it only showed you an arrow and if you wanted the cache info, you had to write or print it. Heck, in the earliest days, there wasn't a whole lot of information to go off of on most caches. Coords, a small description (maybe), possibly a hint, and that's it. No photos, no attributes, no satellite maps.

 

But the game has evolved and most of us have muddled through just fine, thank you very much.

 

No, what I and many I know think is, um, what's the word? Odd? Interesting? Remarkable? Is that so many folks think it is the end of the world because some 1-off developer decided to bail and stop working on the app he developed. And then these same folks blame Groundspeak and want to punish them for what the 1-off developer did and for protecting their business interests and the performance of their system for ALL of us?

 

Hogwash. I don't know what all transpired between Groundspeak and the developer and, what's more, I don't care. What I do know is that the game, and the tools to play it, continue to evolve. If you enjoy the game you must, at some point, evolve with it and that includes all of you smartphone-only users. OK, so your favorite toy may one day cease to function. So you bail on an activity you like? For a stinking piece of software? You have GOT to be kidding me!

 

Find another method that works for you, be flexible, and be patient. Another developer will come along who will have a better (and Groundspeak-compliant) toy, or Groundspeak's will mature further, and you'll be back in business again. OK, maybe not EXACTLY like you were, but close enough that you can continue to enjoy the game.

 

Now please excuse me while I download my PQs for the week and get those darn kids out of my yard.

 

Edit to add: I am in the technology industry and have been for over 30 years. I use a dedicated GPSr AND smartphone as the situation dictates. This old curmudgeon ain't afraid of new technology. I find the best way to make what's available to me to work for me.

Edited by Semper Questio

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I'm surprised they are not complaining that they can't text their friends, twitter the world and post on facebook all at the same time while driving by caches.

Because people who know how to actually use their smartphones do that already, if that's what they want to do. You don't need it all in one app.

Whilst driving? No wonder there are so many accidents!

Of course not, it's perfectly safe to do so. Why, just the other - hey, where the heck did that guy come fr

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I get the feeling the people using traditional GPS units don’t like the new players emerging that like to use their smart phones to go caching…. Kind of like the old man on his porch shaking his cane at the youngsters skateboarding down the sidewalk. We should all embrace technology, no matter who’s using it or what it is. It can only bring advances in our world. After all, if it wasn’t for technology geocaching wouldn’t even exist to begin with.

 

Then your feeling would, in most cases I believe, be wrong.

 

I and the other veterans of this game I know that use traditional GPSrs don't have a problem with folks using smartphones or whatever else they want to use. Use a sextant if you want to.

 

The "veterans" have been in this game long enough to see a LOT of changes. Some good, some not so good. We started with GPSrs that only let you manually enter coords and then it only showed you an arrow and if you wanted the cache info, you had to write or print it. Heck, in the earliest days, there wasn't a whole lot of information to go off of on most caches. Coords, a small description (maybe), possibly a hint, and that's it. No photos, no attributes, no satellite maps.

 

But the game has evolved and most of us have muddled through just fine, thank you very much.

 

No, what I and many I know think is, um, what's the word? Odd? Interesting? Remarkable? Is that so many folks think it is the end of the world because some 1-off developer decided to bail and stop working on the app he developed. And then these same folks blame Groundspeak and want to punish them for what the 1-off developer did and for protecting their business interests and the performance of their system for ALL of us?

 

Hogwash. I don't know what all transpired between Groundspeak and the developer and, what's more, I don't care. What I do know is that the game, and the tools to play it, continue to evolve. If you enjoy the game you must, at some point, evolve with it and that includes all of you smartphone-only users. OK, so your favorite toy may one day cease to function. So you bail on an activity you like? For a stinking piece of software? You have GOT to be kidding me!

 

Find another method that works for you, be flexible, and be patient. Another developer will come along who will have a better (and Groundspeak-compliant) toy, or Groundspeak's will mature further, and you'll be back in business again. OK, maybe not EXACTLY like you were, but close enough that you can continue to enjoy the game.

 

Now please excuse me while I download my PQs for the week and get those darn kids out of my yard.

 

Edit to add: I am in the technology industry and have been for over 30 years. I use a dedicated GPSr AND smartphone as the situation dictates. This old curmudgeon ain't afraid of new technology. I find the best way to make what's available to me to work for me.

What a great reply. You said it so well for, I guess, so many of us.

Jim

Edited by Onslow Fisherman

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+1

 

Thanks SQ for a great response.

Edited by TotemLake

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Don’t everyone shake their cane at me at once, lol.

 

Well... I'm glad my feeling is wrong and everyone is fine with and fully embracing any type of GPS device and caching method, or at least tolerant of them.

 

 

And no, I will not be one of the people that stops caching if c:geo goes down. I hope apps will always exist (no matter who makes then) because the GPS on my phone is super dead on! I do hope live maps will always be available though because it sure is fun just opening up a map and seeing what’s all around you… I do it all the time even when I’m not caching because I like so see areas I want to go back to someday with lots of stuff to find. I’m still new to the game and have a health condition so going on long hunts and doing it as much as I want isn’t possible most of the time.

 

I’ve used a dedicated hand held GPS unit before and it wasn’t near as accurate as my phone. Prob just a bad GPS unit I guess.

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I think premium members should get the app for free. Why should I pay for their app when I have already paid them $30.

 

I'm a member of Costco. I think I should get my groceries for free.

:lol:

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No, what I and many I know think is, um, what's the word? Odd? Interesting? Remarkable? Is that so many folks think it is the end of the world because some 1-off developer decided to bail and stop working on the app he developed. And then these same folks blame Groundspeak and want to punish them for what the 1-off developer did and for protecting their business interests and the performance of their system for ALL of us?

SQ, The only thing that "1-off" developer did was consistently push out a product that performed better, had more features than, and worked better than Grounsdpeaks app, and he did it for $10 less. I guess that's the American way anymore, if you get beat bad enough at your own game, just take your ball and go home.

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I've been using the Groundspeak app on my iPhone, and it works just fine. The satellite view is much better than a map on the GPS, and it does update as I'm moving toward a cache. I can log a find and a picture immediately after finding the cache right at ground zero. The other day when the site went down, the app still looked like it worked OK (it was raining). I don't think the C:geo would. The accuracy sucks, but with the satellite view, its actually better than a GPS in most places that show landmarks.

I think you are misunderstanding what the live map is. C:geo continually searches the geocaching.com web page using your current coordinates. So as you move, new caches will show up, and ones that are now farther away will drop off (or maybe they stay, I can't remember - it is awhile since I used it).

 

 

Ok, now I understand. That would use unnecessary bandwidth. I suppose Groundspeak could make their app do that, but delibrately chose not to do so. It's a silly thing to expect to have. Just go to a location and do a search, what more do you need? I think it's already amazing that the same object can find caches, check e-mail, take pictures, watch and take video, browse the Internet, post in the forums, listen to radio and scanner feeds...as well as make the occasional phone call.

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No, what I and many I know think is, um, what's the word? Odd? Interesting? Remarkable? Is that so many folks think it is the end of the world because some 1-off developer decided to bail and stop working on the app he developed. And then these same folks blame Groundspeak and want to punish them for what the 1-off developer did and for protecting their business interests and the performance of their system for ALL of us?

SQ, The only thing that "1-off" developer did was consistently push out a product that performed better, had more features than, and worked better than Grounsdpeaks app, and he did it for $10 less. I guess that's the American way anymore, if you get beat bad enough at your own game, just take your ball and go home.

Huh? So this 1-off developer consistently pushed a superior product and because of this he is picking up his marbles and going home because GS has a really neat tiger eye marble? I don't see anything that prevents him from continuing to push out his superior product other than he simply does not want to do it anymore. I think it is a bit slimy that he is trying to blame someone else for his decision to leave the game.

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Huh? So this 1-off developer consistently pushed a superior product and because of this he is picking up his marbles and going home because GS has a really neat tiger eye marble? I don't see anything that prevents him from continuing to push out his superior product other than he simply does not want to do it anymore. I think it is a bit slimy that he is trying to blame someone else for his decision to leave the game.

No, he's leaving his marbles around for whoever wants it. He just doesn't want to play marbles anymore because the person whose land he's playing on is constantly moving the circle.

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People that write free software for fun quite often quit after awhile. They get bored and it is no longer fun or they get a job. It happens all the time. They usually release the source and move on. I still am a premium member even though I got bored with the hunt. I like keeping up with the technology. I am amazed at some of the fun things the c:geo designer did with Android API/SDK. I particularly like how all of the individual arrows on the the cache list page rotate when you rotate the phone. The icons with my background showing through is very nice, too, in my opinion. The back and forth with GS was entertaining. GS got in some good shots. I like the detecting of multiple searches in a short time.

 

c:geo is a programming work of art to a geek like me and calling him just a 1-off programmer is true, but kind of insulting. I hope he finds his new job fun and rewarding.

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SQ, The only thing that "1-off" developer did was consistently push out a product that performed better, had more features than, and worked better than Grounsdpeaks app, and he did it for $10 less.

 

I hear you can buy TVs out of the back of a truck for a lot less than you would at the store, too.

 

Again, folks: this app violated the TOU you agreed to when you obtained an account on the site. It doesn't matter how slick the interface was; it was not a legitimate geoaching app.

 

The fact that the official app sucks (and I am not a big fan of it) does not change that fact.

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Huh? So this 1-off developer consistently pushed a superior product and because of this he is picking up his marbles and going home because GS has a really neat tiger eye marble? I don't see anything that prevents him from continuing to push out his superior product other than he simply does not want to do it anymore. I think it is a bit slimy that he is trying to blame someone else for his decision to leave the game.

No, he's leaving his marbles around for whoever wants it. He just doesn't want to play marbles anymore because the person whose land he's playing on is constantly moving the circle.

Yeah, that is true, but when you play Calvin marbles that is something you should have expected.

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Yeah, that is true, but when you play Calvin marbles that is something you should have expected.

Love it! Calvin (as well as Hobbes, see my avatar) was (is?) pure genius. :D

 

--Larry

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SQ, The only thing that "1-off" developer did was consistently push out a product that performed better, had more features than, and worked better than Grounsdpeaks app, and he did it for $10 less.

 

I hear you can buy TVs out of the back of a truck for a lot less than you would at the store, too.

 

Again, folks: this app violated the TOU you agreed to when you obtained an account on the site. It doesn't matter how slick the interface was; it was not a legitimate geoaching app.

 

The fact that the official app sucks (and I am not a big fan of it) does not change that fact.

 

Ya beat me to it fizzy.

 

This is Groundspeak's game room and that app's author was playing in it but didn't like the rules. Well, if you don't like how the owner of the house rules, you are free to find or start your own place. But as long as you are playing in someone else's house, you are subject to their rules which you agreed to abide by.

 

And before the debate ignites yet again about whether or not the TOU was REALLY being violated, what WE think really does not matter. It is Groundspeak's servers, business, employees, etc and they have every right to protect their interests as well as look out for their customer base as a whole. I can easily see how a bunch of folks beating on their servers with the live map function of c:geo could be a drain on THEIR resources and they have every right, actually a responsibility, to take as much control over that as possible and limit it's impact for their user community. I guarantee you that if I see someone pounding any of my systems to the real or even potential detriment of my user base, SOMETHING is gonna change.

 

By the way, in this case "1-off" is a more polite term. "1-off" is synonymous with "3rd party", which, in this business, means "not the primary provider" who, in this case, is Groundspeak. Considering that this app was written contrary to the guidelines and policies of the owner of the site being affected, I could just as easily used the term "hacker" or something worse.

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It's all part of our new "Instant Gratification" world. What I'm reading here is that people want to be standing in any parking lot, anywhere on the globe, turn on their phone, be instantly notified that there is a cache in the lamppost 50' away, find it and then log it instantly.

 

But, you can do that with the official GS app! I use it that way frequently when I'm on non-geocaching road trips.

 

The only thing that c:geo does differently is display all of the nearby caches on a map. The GS app shows them in a list, sorted by distance from your current location.

 

I really don't see that stupid map being enough of a benefit for anyone to geocide over it's absence.

 

Let me take a quick shot at this..... My house is (by the list) about 330 Meters from the nearest cache, but I can't get there from here! When I look at the map I realize that to get there the distance is more like 4K provided I don't want to go through other houses and use a machete through the woods. That's where the map helps me!! Am I going to stop geocaching because I don't have it, no, but I still consider it a heck of a loss, and it will cut down on the ability to do some caching in an unfamiliar area.

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It's all part of our new "Instant Gratification" world. What I'm reading here is that people want to be standing in any parking lot, anywhere on the globe, turn on their phone, be instantly notified that there is a cache in the lamppost 50' away, find it and then log it instantly.

 

But, you can do that with the official GS app! I use it that way frequently when I'm on non-geocaching road trips.

 

The only thing that c:geo does differently is display all of the nearby caches on a map. The GS app shows them in a list, sorted by distance from your current location.

 

I really don't see that stupid map being enough of a benefit for anyone to geocide over it's absence.

 

Let me take a quick shot at this..... My house is (by the list) about 330 Meters from the nearest cache, but I can't get there from here! When I look at the map I realize that to get there the distance is more like 4K provided I don't want to go through other houses and use a machete through the woods. That's where the map helps me!! Am I going to stop geocaching because I don't have it, no, but I still consider it a heck of a loss, and it will cut down on the ability to do some caching in an unfamiliar area.

 

I don't understand why this is an issue with the GC app. With the GC app You can display nearby caches on a map or you can navigate to a cache using maps. The only significant difference is the "live map" feature doing cache refreshes on the map as you drive.

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I've been using c:geo to geocache, I chose it simply because it was a free app in Android market. I head something about the developer stepping down, and in researching this I see all this debate about the ToS and the ethics of a third-party application. Its interesting to see how viperous the discussion has turned, and even though I'm a total newbie, I still can't help but shake my head at my fellow newcomers leaping to defend this (as it turns out) unauthorized software.

 

GS's application is poor. The interface is subpar, the features are lacking, and at $10 it is one of the most expensive apps I've seen in the Market to date. Pass. I don't blame ANYONE for not wanting it. That said, if c:geo is against the rules here, the only proper response is to uninstall it and find something else (I just did so). If you can't accept that, how can you be trusted to have the integrity to follow the conventions of geocaching in general? Do you also take all the stuff out of caches you find and leave nothing? Do you find the cache then toss the container into the weeds instead of putting it back? This activity depends largely upon the honor of the participants, and in this honor system one cannot arbitrarily pick and choose which of the rules and tenants to adhere to and which "don't matter". Following the rules for this site is just as central to the activity as any of the other aspects where you are left to your own devices and trusted to do the right thing in a community spirit.

 

c:geo is cool, it works great, and it is a bargain at twice the price (FREE!). But it just isn't a part of the game. Finding that out is disappointing, sure, but so is finding out that someone stole a cache or kept a TB. Don't be "that guy", now that you know it is against the rules, reject it, don't defend it!

 

Here's the process I adopted to replace c:geo. It works just fine!

 

Step 0: Download and install "GPS Essentials", a free and fully featured GPS app for Android. GPS Essentials actually has some features that c:geo lacks, including a readout of your GPS accuracy, how many satellites you have locked in, your current lat/long, etc.

Step 1: Find your caches through the geocaching.com map interface, note the coordinates and hints on paper

Step 2: Start the GPS Essentials app, add each cache's details as a waypoint. Waypoints may have names and descriptions, so I usually enter the cache name and the hint

Step 3: Hunt! GPS Essentials has a Google Maps-based live map display that shows your waypoints. You can also specify a waypoint as your target, distance-to-target and direction-to-target are shown.

 

You, like myself, started using c:geo because it was free and easy. Now that we know it is against the rules, the honorable thing is to remove the application and find another way. Once I found c:geo, I stopped looking because it did what I want. The take-away from this thread is that you need to keep looking.

Edited by GR Mule

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Wait, people are complaining that they can't geocaching on the fly anymore when they have signal.

 

huh...that's what I thought I did with the iPhone official app ALL THE TIME.

 

It's SO terrible having to wait 15-30 seconds for the app to query the database and present me with the nearest 30 caches.

 

now, the issue with trackables...yeah, I agree GS could do WAY better on their app with it...but I don't see the big deal over live mapping. My maps work just fine.

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This thread is full of disappointment and bad information on both sides.

 

C:Geo is fine. In the beginning it used GS's icons without their permission. That's it. That was quickly rectified.

Since then by the DEV's own words has flirted with the TOS but has not violated said TOS.

However from what I understand GS has never officially or publicly provided tangible proof and or asked him to stop.

 

GS created this problem by ... waiting to long to release their own app ... then charging $10 for it.

 

I've been using both apps since their inception and following this ridiculous saga since the beginning and I have to say my faith in humanity has dropped a few points.

 

The good news is that some kind developers have stepped up and will continue development of C:Geo.

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C:Geo is fine. In the beginning it used GS's icons without their permission. That's it. That was quickly rectified.

Since then by the DEV's own words has flirted with the TOS but has not violated said TOS.

 

 

Here is the problem:

 

You agree that you will not use any robot, spider, scraper or other automated means to access the Site for any purpose without our express written permission.

 

Please explain how this application gets its data to operate in real time without violating that section of the TOS. c:geo is a scrapper, pure and simple, and therefore violates the TOS. There is no other way for live map to function. Of course it is not the author that has the problem, you the user do.

 

Once the API is released I almost bet that if c:geo is fixed in it's present form there will be some really unhappy folks. The problem is far more than icons.

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"Step 1: Find your caches through the geocaching.com map interface, note the coordinates and hints on paper"

 

I don't geocache, but YOU must be kidding.

We have a smartphone and/or a Garmin with paperless cache and now we have to write down notes???

 

No, GS should have his act in order, if they don't make an app up to todays standards, I have to go to stoneage of geocaching???

 

As said before at $10 GS app is one of the most costly app's and still not really working as it should, the alternative is free and much better, so what do you use??

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SQ, The only thing that "1-off" developer did was consistently push out a product that performed better, had more features than, and worked better than Grounsdpeaks app, and he did it for $10 less.

 

I hear you can buy TVs out of the back of a truck for a lot less than you would at the store, too.

 

Again, folks: this app violated the TOU you agreed to when you obtained an account on the site. It doesn't matter how slick the interface was; it was not a legitimate geoaching app.

 

The fact that the official app sucks (and I am not a big fan of it) does not change that fact.

And if the even numbered channels on the high price TV from the store didnt work, you would be ok with it because the manufacturer said that's the best they could do?

 

The point is 1 developer managed to make an app consistently superior to GS app, from the outside looking in, for free. Why cant Groundspeak make one that is comparable? It is their system and database, isnt it? At $10 per download, it is well above the average paid app price of $3.27. As of right now, the app is in the 50,000-250,000 download range, so at a minimum, GS has grossed $349,650 from the sale of their app. [(50K downloads *$9.99)*.7] Now, do you expect anyone to believe the overhead on the development of that app is anywhere near $350K?

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One the c:geo facebook page the developer announced that another group of people was overtaking the app. It looks like we will be saying hello to the new c:geo developers very soon.

 

Has anyone posted this yet? I don't feel like reading right now.

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One the c:geo facebook page the developer announced that another group of people was overtaking the app. It looks like we will be saying hello to the new c:geo developers very soon.

 

Has anyone posted this yet? I don't feel like reading right now.

Post #221 mentioned it in passing but without details. The Facebook page doesn't have much details either.

 

I can summarize the thread for you in about 3 sentences, but even reading that would not be very productive :)

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The good news is that some kind developers have stepped up and will continue development of C:Geo.

 

Had a bad day at work today.... this is just the news I needed to cheer me up! Me and my girl are going caching this weekend. Good times :)

 

Live Maps here we come!

Edited by Master Shifu

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C:Geo is fine. In the beginning it used GS's icons without their permission. That's it. That was quickly rectified.

Since then by the DEV's own words has flirted with the TOS but has not violated said TOS.

 

 

Here is the problem:

 

You agree that you will not use any robot, spider, scraper or other automated means to access the Site for any purpose without our express written permission.

 

Please explain how this application gets its data to operate in real time without violating that section of the TOS. c:geo is a scrapper, pure and simple, and therefore violates the TOS. There is no other way for live map to function. Of course it is not the author that has the problem, you the user do.

 

Once the API is released I almost bet that if c:geo is fixed in it's present form there will be some really unhappy folks. The problem is far more than icons.

 

"...other automated means"

By that definition I'm almost certain you're violating the TOS by simply browsing GC.com with your favorite browser.

 

I've seen your reply many many times. I think it's a grey area and open for interpretation so I don't need to explain anything. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Until GS by legal notice requests that c:geo seizes it's operation it will continue to be a legit program.

 

I'm pretty sure the anti-c:geo folks don't follow the developer and therefore have no clue what he has actually done with the app let alone use it.

 

I really don't need to say anything else that hasn't already been said. Quite frankly I don't know why I bother.

Edited by Team Four Paw

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C:Geo is fine. In the beginning it used GS's icons without their permission. That's it. That was quickly rectified.

Since then by the DEV's own words has flirted with the TOS but has not violated said TOS.

 

 

Here is the problem:

 

You agree that you will not use any robot, spider, scraper or other automated means to access the Site for any purpose without our express written permission.

 

Please explain how this application gets its data to operate in real time without violating that section of the TOS. c:geo is a scrapper, pure and simple, and therefore violates the TOS. There is no other way for live map to function. Of course it is not the author that has the problem, you the user do.

 

Once the API is released I almost bet that if c:geo is fixed in it's present form there will be some really unhappy folks. The problem is far more than icons.

 

"...other automated means"

By that definition I'm almost certain you're violating the TOS by simply browsing GC.com with your favorite browser.

 

I've seen your reply many many times. I think it's a grey area and open for interpretation so I don't need to explain anything. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Until GS by legal notice requests that c:geo seizes it's operation it will continue to be a legit program.

 

I'm pretty sure the anti-c:geo folks don't follow the developer and therefore have no clue what he has actually done with the app let alone use it.

 

I really don't need to say anything else that hasn't already been said. Quite frankly I don't know why I bother.

Using a browser is not using an automated means. Using a browser you have to initiate the action. You can wiggle however you like to wiggle, but turning on live map and driving down the road you have started an automatic scrapping of the site since you are not initiating the action for each request yourself but rather c:geo is. But since you seem to be a c:geo expert would you do us a favor and detail how c:geo gets the data it needs for a live map without resorting to repeated page requests and scrapping those pages for the needed information.

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Using a browser is not using an automated means. Using a browser you have to initiate the action. You can wiggle however you like to wiggle, but turning on live map and driving down the road you have started an automatic scrapping of the site since you are not initiating the action for each request yourself but rather c:geo is. But since you seem to be a c:geo expert would you do us a favor and detail how c:geo gets the data it needs for a live map without resorting to repeated page requests and scrapping those pages for the needed information.

 

One other thing that c:geo apparently does, I'm not a developer and haven't dug into the software myself to know 100% but, it doesn't identify itself as a mobile app. It was programmed to identify itself to the web servers as a desktop browser. This was done deliberately to allow it to scrape the pages for the information that it needs to function.

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Using a browser is not using an automated means. Using a browser you have to initiate the action. You can wiggle however you like to wiggle, but turning on live map and driving down the road you have started an automatic scrapping of the site since you are not initiating the action for each request yourself but rather c:geo is. But since you seem to be a c:geo expert would you do us a favor and detail how c:geo gets the data it needs for a live map without resorting to repeated page requests and scrapping those pages for the needed information.

 

One other thing that c:geo apparently does, I'm not a developer and haven't dug into the software myself to know 100% but, it doesn't identify itself as a mobile app. It was programmed to identify itself to the web servers as a desktop browser. This was done deliberately to allow it to scrape the pages for the information that it needs to function.

 

I have two browsers on my phone including c:geo that allow me to change the user agent (browser identity). Most modern browsers on your computer also allow you to change the user agent and has been a feature for many many years now. This is not a valid argument but it sure does like to be throw around a lot in this debate as a means to question the developers integrity. If you've been around long enough.. You'll know that Groundspeak is no saint either...

 

jholly, I have no interest in debating you. If it makes you sleep better at night that you've won some debate on the internet then all all means sleep tight my friend.

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I have two browsers on my phone including c:geo that allow me to change the user agent (browser identity). Most modern browsers on your computer also allow you to change the user agent and has been a feature for many many years now. This is not a valid argument but it sure does like to be throw around a lot in this debate as a means to question the developers integrity. If you've been around long enough.. You'll know that Groundspeak is no saint either...

 

 

I believe you 100% on being able to change the user agent on your phone browsers. But using your phone browser, you can only manually open so many links in a given amount of time. C:geo can, theoretically, open hundreds of links at once which is impossible for a human to do. That is where the scraping comes into play.

 

For the record, I don't have an Android phone so none of this actually effects me in anyway.

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Until GS by legal notice requests that c:geo seizes it's operation it will continue to be a legit program.

I'm assuming you meant "ceases". Legal notice? Good luck with that. Given the circumstances around which the author has operated on the net (that ".cc" top level domain sure has an interesting history, BTW), just where would you have them deliver that cease-and-desist order? You could have it pulled from sites like androlib and android.com and it would still be available from the author's website at cgeo.carnero.cc. The wild, wild web can make 'normal' legal remedies a whole lot harder (or downright impossible) to pursue.

 

So don't assume that because gc.com hasn't tried or succeeded with a legal remedy that they don't believe it's a problem.

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Until GS by legal notice requests that c:geo seizes it's operation it will continue to be a legit program.

I'm assuming you meant "ceases". Legal notice? Good luck with that . . . . So don't assume that because gc.com hasn't tried or succeeded with a legal remedy that they don't believe it's a problem.

 

Jeremy stated that the app violates the TOU, but they chose to make the API available to the developer instead of pursuing other options. Groundspeak's repeated statements about the app is probably all I need to figure out whether it is legitimately accessing their site. What Groundspeak chooses to do to remedy the situation is a completely different issue.

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Until GS by legal notice requests that c:geo seizes it's operation it will continue to be a legit program.

I'm assuming you meant "ceases". Legal notice? Good luck with that. Given the circumstances around which the author has operated on the net (that ".cc" top level domain sure has an interesting history, BTW), just where would you have them deliver that cease-and-desist order? You could have it pulled from sites like androlib and android.com and it would still be available from the author's website at cgeo.carnero.cc. The wild, wild web can make 'normal' legal remedies a whole lot harder (or downright impossible) to pursue.

 

So don't assume that because gc.com hasn't tried or succeeded with a legal remedy that they don't believe it's a problem.

 

They know how to contact each other. The developer isn't hiding in a cave.

Thanks for pointing out my typo. I can always count on big green. :rolleyes:

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They know how to contact each other.

Knowing how to contact someone isn't the same as having a ready avenue for delivering a cease-and-desist order in another jurisdiction (actually, CZ, in this case). Under the circumstances, I'd try to work it out amicably, too. The idea of any sort of 'legal request' given the venues involved would be cause for more brain damage and expense than it could possibly would be worth at the moment, and that's assuming you got cooperation from the appropriate agencies on the other end. gc.com isn't a typical Fortune 500 company with a large legal department, nor would it have probably helped in this case if they were.

 

It's like trying to shut down an 'illegal file sharing site' on the other side of the world. The U.S. government tried that, gave up, and just hijacked the domains via seizure and redirection. Never mind that you can still use an IP address to get to the same sites (sigh).

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The Groundspeak phone app really needs to get the same maps as c:geo had.

 

Confused by this comment, c:geo and the Geocaching App on Android both use Google Maps.

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The Groundspeak phone app really needs to get the same maps as c:geo had.

 

Confused by this comment, c:geo and the Geocaching App on Android both use Google Maps.

 

Maybe he meant the locus mapping program.

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"Step 1: Find your caches through the geocaching.com map interface, note the coordinates and hints on paper"

 

I don't geocache, but YOU must be kidding.

We have a smartphone and/or a Garmin with paperless cache and now we have to write down notes???

 

No, GS should have his act in order, if they don't make an app up to todays standards, I have to go to stoneage of geocaching???

 

As said before at $10 GS app is one of the most costly app's and still not really working as it should, the alternative is free and much better, so what do you use??

 

Stone Age - are you kidding me? Is writing something down so painful? Does it bother you that you have to walk to the cache as well?

 

There are probably a hundred other ways to do it without c:geo, and some of them are probably all-digital, single-device methods. I simply mentioned the method I adopted in favor of c:geo, it is just what works for me and a suggested alternative for someone who wants to do the honorable thing. I *could* use the select/copy/paste functionality on my phone to transfer the descriptions and coordinates but I find this feature tedious and frustrating to use via touchscreen, and so instead favor pen and paper. Surprisingly, it did not cause a reverse apocalypse when I wrote something with an ink pen, and I'm still walking upright and using complex vocalizations to communicate.

 

Regarding the technicality of whether this violates the ToU or not: I am a software developer, so I'm pretty familiar with how this stuff works. The ToU clearly forbids scraping, and scraping is exactly what the app does. It doesn't even do it efficiently - it isn't as though caches move around, and it isn't as though it would take a lot of space to keep an offline "cache" (that's what it is called, a confusing confluence of terminology ensues!) of the cache locations and descriptions. Instead, the app appears to access the website every couple of seconds or so to refresh the on-screen cache locations, and it appears to discard the last set of locations as soon as it updates with new location data. Knowing as I do how this would be implemented (efficiency aside), I can deduce with absolute confidence that this app violates the ToU. There's no question about it, it isn't a debate.

 

The fact the Groundspeak has not embarked on the complicated, miserable, expensive, and possibly fruitless journey to take legal action against an application/system that is hosted off-shores and made by a foreign national does not mitigate the fact that this app violates the ToU. I don't need to wait until they take it way from me to stop using it, just like I don't steal until I get caught; I just don't steal at all.

Edited by GR Mule

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"Step 1: Find your caches through the geocaching.com map interface, note the coordinates and hints on paper"

 

I don't geocache, but YOU must be kidding.

We have a smartphone and/or a Garmin with paperless cache and now we have to write down notes???

 

No, GS should have his act in order, if they don't make an app up to todays standards, I have to go to stoneage of geocaching???

 

As said before at $10 GS app is one of the most costly app's and still not really working as it should, the alternative is free and much better, so what do you use??

 

Stone Age - are you kidding me? Is writing something down so painful? Does it bother you that you have to walk to the cache as well?

 

There are probably a hundred other ways to do it without c:geo, and some of them are probably all-digital, single-device methods. I simply mentioned the method I adopted in favor of c:geo, it is just what works for me and a suggested alternative for someone who wants to do the honorable thing. I *could* use the select/copy/paste functionality on my phone to transfer the descriptions and coordinates but I find this feature tedious and frustrating to use via touchscreen, and so instead favor pen and paper. Surprisingly, it did not cause a reverse apocalypse when I wrote something with an ink pen, and I'm still walking upright and using complex vocalizations to communicate.

I just wanted to comment on this statement, as I don't want to be involved in the debate.

 

The world is changing, why waste paper in a digital age? Isn't geocaching itself the combination of embracing technology and environment?

 

Just throwing that out there....

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I just wanted to comment on this statement, as I don't want to be involved in the debate.

 

The world is changing, why waste paper in a digital age? Isn't geocaching itself the combination of embracing technology and environment?

 

Just throwing that out there....

 

Again - paper and pen is just what I came upon as a method that works for me and allows me to honor the ToU that I read and agreed to. There are plenty of other ways to do it without a pen and paper. Also, the whole idea of not wasting paper... why do we use paper logs when there are also online digital ones? Is it environmentally friendly to drive out of your way to find a cache? You're wasting gas. If you want to go down that road, we should just sit at home and look at pictures of cats on the internet - no paper, no gas, no carbon emissions from driving around hiding and finding caches. :D

Edited by GR Mule

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Here is the problem:

 

You agree that you will not use any robot, spider, scraper or other automated means to access the Site for any purpose without our express written permission.

 

Please explain how this application gets its data to operate in real time without violating that section of the TOS. c:geo is a scrapper, pure and simple, and therefore violates the TOS. There is no other way for live map to function. Of course it is not the author that has the problem, you the user do.

 

Once the API is released I almost bet that if c:geo is fixed in it's present form there will be some really unhappy folks. The problem is far more than icons.

I don't think you mean c:geo scraps the data. :-)

 

I don't know exactly how c:geo works, but I know a little about client/server operation. The gc.com is a server that serves data to a client. The client can be a browser, which parses the data and converts the data to display data. The browser get a small html file with lots of links to images and text. The browser then GETs the image data and displays everything. Most of the work is off loaded to the client. c;geo is a client gets the html and parses it, too. Scraping is just a derogatory term GS uses for parsing(the person who claims to be programmer and calls it scraping, shame on you). c:geo doesn't need the images so it uses less bandwidth than the browser.

 

Android is based on client/servers internally. The server is called a provider. c:geo asks for a provider to display waypoints on a map and the Google map provider displays them. The "live map" as you call it is off loaded to Google Maps. Google Maps calls the location provider which calls the GPS or phone to get the current location and the map moves. The waypoints are redisplayed from the list c:geo provided. No new search of gc.com is needed. I have no idea how c:geo determines if the location has moved outside the current list area. All I know is that if c:geo does multiple searches every time it moves, gc.com would detect this and give the error that you are a computer and not human.

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(the person who claims to be programmer and calls it scraping, shame on you)

 

Shame on me? "Scraping" is the common term for parsing data off a document. It is not "just some derogatory word GS invented", absolutely not. Take a look at the wikipedia article about this practice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_scraping or do a Google search for "web scrape". It is not a perjorative, it is a known and widely used method for harvesting data. It is frequently done in direct violation of the ToS or ToU of the target web system, but usually the party doing the scraping doesn't care.

 

In this instance, we do care (presumably). You're either pretending to have expertise that you don't have or trying to ad hominem your way around my argument. Either way, the shame is not mine ;) Calling it "parsing" and backing away from the term "scraping" is sugar coating and a misnomer; "parsing" is something else entirely. In terms of c:geo, the data is being parsed after it has been scraped contrary to the ToU for this site, period. PERIOD.

 

My career is not a "claim"; it is who I am, what I do, where I spend 80% of my time.

Edited by GR Mule

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(the person who claims to be programmer and calls it scraping, shame on you)

Shame on me? "Scraping" is the common term for parsing data off a document. It is not "just some derogatory word GS invented", absolutely not.

FWIW, I'm a programmer, and fancy semantics aside, I call that scraping too. I provided the Wikipedia link many posts ago, but apparently the person who claims to know what web scraping is did not bother to read.

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Here is the problem:

 

You agree that you will not use any robot, spider, scraper or other automated means to access the Site for any purpose without our express written permission.

 

Please explain how this application gets its data to operate in real time without violating that section of the TOS. c:geo is a scrapper, pure and simple, and therefore violates the TOS. There is no other way for live map to function. Of course it is not the author that has the problem, you the user do.

 

Once the API is released I almost bet that if c:geo is fixed in it's present form there will be some really unhappy folks. The problem is far more than icons.

I don't think you mean c:geo scraps the data. :-)

 

I don't know exactly how c:geo works, but I know a little about client/server operation. The gc.com is a server that serves data to a client. The client can be a browser, which parses the data and converts the data to display data. The browser get a small html file with lots of links to images and text. The browser then GETs the image data and displays everything. Most of the work is off loaded to the client. c;geo is a client gets the html and parses it, too. Scraping is just a derogatory term GS uses for parsing(the person who claims to be programmer and calls it scraping, shame on you). c:geo doesn't need the images so it uses less bandwidth than the browser.

 

Android is based on client/servers internally. The server is called a provider. c:geo asks for a provider to display waypoints on a map and the Google map provider displays them. The "live map" as you call it is off loaded to Google Maps. Google Maps calls the location provider which calls the GPS or phone to get the current location and the map moves. The waypoints are redisplayed from the list c:geo provided. No new search of gc.com is needed. I have no idea how c:geo determines if the location has moved outside the current list area. All I know is that if c:geo does multiple searches every time it moves, gc.com would detect this and give the error that you are a computer and not human.

 

c:geo has to do more than just make one call to geocaching.com for the data. The first call would return a list of search results. From there you would have to parse out the individual cache links and follow each one of them to be able to parse out the coordinates. Then it has the data needed to display a map. It has to go out and do this all over again each time it wants to refresh the map. If there's an API call that can return the needed data in one shot, that would be more efficient than the 21+ web page requests it has to make now.

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I just wanted to comment on this statement, as I don't want to be involved in the debate.

 

The world is changing, why waste paper in a digital age? Isn't geocaching itself the combination of embracing technology and environment?

 

Just throwing that out there....

 

Again - paper and pen is just what I came upon as a method that works for me and allows me to honor the ToU that I read and agreed to. There are plenty of other ways to do it without a pen and paper. Also, the whole idea of not wasting paper... why do we use paper logs when there are also online digital ones? Is it environmentally friendly to drive out of your way to find a cache? You're wasting gas. If you want to go down that road, we should just sit at home and look at pictures of cats on the internet - no paper, no gas, no carbon emissions from driving around hiding and finding caches. :D

Many people ride their bikes to caches and CITO. Seems silly to use a pen and paper when paperless is an option. Maybe you should ride a horse and buggy to the cache? ;)

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Many people ride their bikes to caches and CITO. Seems silly to use a pen and paper when paperless is an option. Maybe you should ride a horse and buggy to the cache? ;)

GR_Mule is not a premium member. So getting all the information into a paperless device is about the same amount of work as just writing down the cache info - unless he scrapes data off the pages, which I think is his point.

Edited by Chrysalides

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(the person who claims to be programmer and calls it scraping, shame on you)

Shame on me? "Scraping" is the common term for parsing data off a document. It is not "just some derogatory word GS invented", absolutely not.

FWIW, I'm a programmer, and fancy semantics aside, I call that scraping too. I provided the Wikipedia link many posts ago, but apparently the person who claims to know what web scraping is did not bother to read.

My comment was poking someone who inflated himself a little. Just a little fun and no malice intended Sorry 'bout that. Everybody and his brother seems to be a programmer. I read your link. Apparently scraping has several meanings, but you know exactly what the TOU means. The TOU is too broad for me.

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