GR Mule

I'd love to give c:geo some wriggle room, but the way I understand scraping and the TOU there isn't any. In any case, doesn't matter what we think, it's what Groundspeak thinks. Seems that Jeremy has pretty unequivocally said it is against the TOU. And now we're back to my actual point, which is: If you know it is against the ToU (and now, having read this thread, you do), why wait for Groundspeak to wrest the app from your hands? Don't cling to dishonesty - be honorable, have integrity, if you care about this site and the activity it supports, don't use an app that breaks the rules. Uninstall it of your own volition and don't look back.

Shame on me? "Scraping" is the common term for parsing data off a document. It is not "just some derogatory word GS invented", absolutely not. Take a look at the wikipedia article about this practice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_scraping or do a Google search for "web scrape". It is not a perjorative, it is a known and widely used method for harvesting data. It is frequently done in direct violation of the ToS or ToU of the target web system, but usually the party doing the scraping doesn't care. In this instance, we do care (presumably). You're either pretending to have expertise that you don't have or trying to ad hominem your way around my argument. Either way, the shame is not mine Calling it "parsing" and backing away from the term "scraping" is sugar coating and a misnomer; "parsing" is something else entirely. In terms of c:geo, the data is being parsed after it has been scraped contrary to the ToU for this site, period. PERIOD. My career is not a "claim"; it is who I am, what I do, where I spend 80% of my time.

Again - paper and pen is just what I came upon as a method that works for me and allows me to honor the ToU that I read and agreed to. There are plenty of other ways to do it without a pen and paper. Also, the whole idea of not wasting paper... why do we use paper logs when there are also online digital ones? Is it environmentally friendly to drive out of your way to find a cache? You're wasting gas. If you want to go down that road, we should just sit at home and look at pictures of cats on the internet - no paper, no gas, no carbon emissions from driving around hiding and finding caches.

Stone Age - are you kidding me? Is writing something down so painful? Does it bother you that you have to walk to the cache as well? There are probably a hundred other ways to do it without c:geo, and some of them are probably all-digital, single-device methods. I simply mentioned the method I adopted in favor of c:geo, it is just what works for me and a suggested alternative for someone who wants to do the honorable thing. I *could* use the select/copy/paste functionality on my phone to transfer the descriptions and coordinates but I find this feature tedious and frustrating to use via touchscreen, and so instead favor pen and paper. Surprisingly, it did not cause a reverse apocalypse when I wrote something with an ink pen, and I'm still walking upright and using complex vocalizations to communicate. Regarding the technicality of whether this violates the ToU or not: I am a software developer, so I'm pretty familiar with how this stuff works. The ToU clearly forbids scraping, and scraping is exactly what the app does. It doesn't even do it efficiently - it isn't as though caches move around, and it isn't as though it would take a lot of space to keep an offline "cache" (that's what it is called, a confusing confluence of terminology ensues!) of the cache locations and descriptions. Instead, the app appears to access the website every couple of seconds or so to refresh the on-screen cache locations, and it appears to discard the last set of locations as soon as it updates with new location data. Knowing as I do how this would be implemented (efficiency aside), I can deduce with absolute confidence that this app violates the ToU. There's no question about it, it isn't a debate. The fact the Groundspeak has not embarked on the complicated, miserable, expensive, and possibly fruitless journey to take legal action against an application/system that is hosted off-shores and made by a foreign national does not mitigate the fact that this app violates the ToU. I don't need to wait until they take it way from me to stop using it, just like I don't steal until I get caught; I just don't steal at all.

^ This. Nonsensical story is nonsensical.

I've been using c:geo to geocache, I chose it simply because it was a free app in Android market. I head something about the developer stepping down, and in researching this I see all this debate about the ToS and the ethics of a third-party application. Its interesting to see how viperous the discussion has turned, and even though I'm a total newbie, I still can't help but shake my head at my fellow newcomers leaping to defend this (as it turns out) unauthorized software. GS's application is poor. The interface is subpar, the features are lacking, and at $10 it is one of the most expensive apps I've seen in the Market to date. Pass. I don't blame ANYONE for not wanting it. That said, if c:geo is against the rules here, the only proper response is to uninstall it and find something else (I just did so). If you can't accept that, how can you be trusted to have the integrity to follow the conventions of geocaching in general? Do you also take all the stuff out of caches you find and leave nothing? Do you find the cache then toss the container into the weeds instead of putting it back? This activity depends largely upon the honor of the participants, and in this honor system one cannot arbitrarily pick and choose which of the rules and tenants to adhere to and which "don't matter". Following the rules for this site is just as central to the activity as any of the other aspects where you are left to your own devices and trusted to do the right thing in a community spirit. c:geo is cool, it works great, and it is a bargain at twice the price (FREE!). But it just isn't a part of the game. Finding that out is disappointing, sure, but so is finding out that someone stole a cache or kept a TB. Don't be "that guy", now that you know it is against the rules, reject it, don't defend it! Here's the process I adopted to replace c:geo. It works just fine! Step 0: Download and install "GPS Essentials", a free and fully featured GPS app for Android. GPS Essentials actually has some features that c:geo lacks, including a readout of your GPS accuracy, how many satellites you have locked in, your current lat/long, etc. Step 1: Find your caches through the geocaching.com map interface, note the coordinates and hints on paper Step 2: Start the GPS Essentials app, add each cache's details as a waypoint. Waypoints may have names and descriptions, so I usually enter the cache name and the hint Step 3: Hunt! GPS Essentials has a Google Maps-based live map display that shows your waypoints. You can also specify a waypoint as your target, distance-to-target and direction-to-target are shown. You, like myself, started using c:geo because it was free and easy. Now that we know it is against the rules, the honorable thing is to remove the application and find another way. Once I found c:geo, I stopped looking because it did what I want. The take-away from this thread is that you need to keep looking.