PVC tube caches - should they be banned?

[+JL_HSTRE]

Should PVC tubes be banned as cache containers? They're a classic bad container: frequently difficult to open despite that not being the intent (as evidence by their showing up on 1-2 star difficulty caches) and not watertight. I have also seem them crack.

 

But in addition to being arguably worse containers than film cans (which at least open easily), of all cache containers they seem most likely to be mistaken for a pipe bomb or similar dangerous device.

 

Do you think these issues enough to need a ban in the guidelines? Should any legal container be banned by the geocaching guidelines?

[+G & C]

Did you mean to post this here in the geocoin forum?

[+mpilchfamily]

Assuming this thread will be moved to the correct forum...

 

No containers are banned or should be. But many different types of containers are frowned upon under various situations. Outlawing PVC completely will kill off many good and creative caches that use PVC pipes. If done right many of the frowned upon containers can be really good. As you find bad cache containers you should post a NM log so the owner knows its time for a new container.

[+shadowmib]

I don't think PVC should be banned. I have seen some really ingenius caches made from PVC. Look on youtube for HeadHardHat's videos, he has some really interesting ones that work well, and do not resemble anything like a bomb.

 

I have some ideas myself for PVC caches. If the person building them knows what they are doing, they can indeed make waterproof caches from them.

 

[+StarBrand]

There is more than one way to create a PVC cache. Not all of the types are bad and/or should be banned in any way for any reason.

[jholly]

Should PVC tubes be banned as cache containers? They're a classic bad container: frequently difficult to open despite that not being the intent (as evidence by their showing up on 1-2 star difficulty caches) and not watertight. I have also seem them crack.

 

But in addition to being arguably worse containers than film cans (which at least open easily), of all cache containers they seem most likely to be mistaken for a pipe bomb or similar dangerous device.

 

Do you think these issues enough to need a ban in the guidelines? Should any legal container be banned by the geocaching guidelines?

Film cans have been deemed dangerous devices, Lock'n'Locks have been deemed dangerous devices, peanut butter jars have been deemed dangerous devices, ammo cans have been deemed dangerous devices. In addition to virtually every cache container with the possible exception of a blinkie have been deemed a dangerous device. Man, they even deemed a traffic counter a dangerous device. Perhaps all containers except a zip lock bag should be banned. But I really don't want to start down that path.

[knowschad]

No, but they should be discouraged. Ban one container material and you are quickly headed down a slippery slope. Best to just put out the message that caches should attempt to avoid looking like bombs, pipe or other, and leave it at that. Them's my thoughts on the matter.

[+shadowmib]

[GOF and Bacall]

PVC pipe is often decried in these forums as being too easy to mistake for a pipe bomb. Why? Has anyone ever heard of a pipe bomb being made out of PVC? Seems like iron pipe would be the mad bombers material of choice.

[+briansnat]

PVC pipe is often decried in these forums as being too easy to mistake for a pipe bomb. Why? Has anyone ever heard of a pipe bomb being made out of PVC? Seems like iron pipe would be the mad bombers material of choice.

 

The average person who encounters one may not make that distinction. Oh, and pipe bombs can be made out of PVC.

Edited March 16, 2011 by briansnat

[+user13371]

Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as a PVC Pipe Bomb.

And they can be very loud, too!

[+releasethedogs]

I think putting "harmless geocache" really does not matter. If it looks like a bomb, or even like it could possibly be a bomb then the bomb squad will blow it up. Also, whats to stop some who who makes a bomb from spray painting "harmless geocache" on a bomb?

[+Markwell]

Has anyone ever heard of a pipe bomb being made out of PVC? Seems like iron pipe would be the mad bombers material of choice.

 

Has anyone ever heard of a pipe bomb being hidden out in the middle of a forest? Seems like a crowded mall would be the mad bombers location of choice.

 

 

People don't THINK when they encounter something that makes them jumpy.

[Mr.Yuck]

I think putting "harmless geocache" really does not matter. If it looks like a bomb, or even like it could possibly be a bomb then the bomb squad will blow it up. Also, whats to stop some who who makes a bomb from spray painting "harmless geocache" on a bomb?

 

Doesn't matter? I don't know, a good idea, and might help in some cases. Ban them? Naw, although they generally suck, and almost always leak. And HeadHardHat lives down South, try opening one of those suckers up here in the winter in the frozen Tundra. Better yet, try opening one right about this time of year with daily freeze/thaw cycles.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Mr.Yuck

[+bflentje]

No, do not ban. I've seen as many properly done PVC containers as I've seen bad ones.

[+GeoGeeBee]

If you are going to ban PVC pipe because it can be mistaken for a bomb... well, be sure to ban stuffed ponies, too.

 

[+Bullygoat29]

well, be sure to ban stuffed ponies, too.

 

Wow. I can't believe how paranoid people have gotten.

 

 

[+rav_bunneh]

When I moved to Hawaii the TSA people at the airport felt up both my cats to make sure I had not put a bomb inside of my, very much alive, bundles of joy. I, of course, laughed at the TSA agents the entire times as did a lot of the other people in line. Yes, people are a little to wound up and paranoid.

[knowschad]

well, be sure to ban stuffed ponies, too.

 

Wow. I can't believe how paranoid people have gotten.

There have been a lot more than that. A child's lunchbox, a little toy robot, a microwave in the woods that was plugged into a treetrunk...

[+Team GPSaxophone]

If you are going to ban PVC pipe because it can be mistaken for a bomb... well, be sure to ban stuffed ponies, too.

 

That sure seemed like an excessive amount of an explosion to prevent the stuffed horse from exploding.

[+Ecylram]

If you are going to ban PVC pipe because it can be mistaken for a bomb... well, be sure to ban stuffed ponies, too.

 

 

This is the latest bomb scare from yesterday.

[+Bullygoat29]

This is the latest bomb scare from yesterday.

 

While that is hilarious, I can see the scare behind that one. Wrapped package making funny noises. There isn't anyone that shouldn't be a little spooked by that.

[+Ecylram]

This is the latest bomb scare from yesterday.

 

While that is hilarious, I can see the scare behind that one. Wrapped package making funny noises. There isn't anyone that shouldn't be a little spooked by that.

 

Here's a recent one without 'vibrations'...shoes.

[+Chrysalides]

Has anyone ever heard of a pipe bomb being hidden out in the middle of a forest? Seems like a crowded mall would be the mad bombers location of choice.

Actually, I have. Right here in the forums.

 

Can't recall who or where, but a geocacher found a stash of pipe bombs somewhere remote. On an island? Called the police, who had the bomb squad detonate it. He had videos too.

[RainbowKat]

I think if I was a muggle I'd be more suspicious of a pipe labelled "Harmless Geocache" than one with no labelling!

[+sbell111]

Film cans have been deemed dangerous devices, Lock'n'Locks have been deemed dangerous devices, peanut butter jars have been deemed dangerous devices, ammo cans have been deemed dangerous devices. In addition to virtually every cache container with the possible exception of a blinkie have been deemed a dangerous device. Man, they even deemed a traffic counter a dangerous device. Perhaps all containers except a zip lock bag should be banned. But I really don't want to start down that path.

The cache that shut down Downtown Disney a few weeks ago was reported in the forums to be a nano.

[+shadowmib]

PVC isn't the problem..

 

The problems are:

 

People who don't know how to make waterproof caches.

People who who use caches inappropriate for the climate.

People who place caches in suspicious locations.

The general public's overblown fear of bombs and terrorists (mainly created by media).

 

Also one thing I want to mention because some people don't seem to realize.. Even if you have a completely airtight and watertight container, you can still end up with a damp log in certain circumstances.

 

Even notice that little bag of silica they put in packages or electronics and other things? The thing that says "DO NOT EAT"? That is there to absorb moisture.

 

If I am down here in Texas, putting together a cache in 110 degree heat and 99% humidity. I seal it up air and water tight, then go place it somewhere out in the woods. fast forward 6 months and someone FTFs it in the middle of winter when it's 40 degrees out. I can pretty much guarantee that the log will be damp. As the air in the cache cools, the humidity percentage keeps going up and the air cannot suspend the moisture so it begins to condense inside the container. Then you end up with either water on the inside of the container walls, or the log and other items inside suck up th humidity.

 

Why make a container when you can just go buy a lock-n-lock or ammo box? Because for some people, part of the enjoyment they get out of the hobby is actually the construction of the cache containers themselves. Instead of busting some guy's balls for making a leaky container, if we know a better way, try educating them. I am sure there is no one on here that deliberately make them leaky.

 

 

[+Walts Hunting]

As long as we are talking about banning stuff how about banning micros.

[+Chrysalides]

As long as we are talking about banning stuff how about banning micros.

Little known fact : the real reason why digital cameras replaced film camera is to make the film canister hard to find.

 

Oh, wait, it's not April yet? Dang.. now I need a new topic for April 1st.

[+niraD]

As long as we are talking about banning stuff how about banning micros.

I'd rather ban regular and large caches. They're so big they hardly present any challenge, and they're so full of junk it's hard to find the log, or the few trackables that might be in them.

 

Little known fact : the real reason why digital cameras replaced film camera is to make the film canister hard to find.

True story: A photographer friend just had a roll of black-and-white film processed. Photo shops can still do it, but it's expensive enough to strongly discourage anyone who doesn't have their own darkroom.

[+CanadianRockies]

Even if you have a completely airtight and watertight container, you can still end up with a damp log in certain circumstances.

In addition to the humidity issue, sometimes caches are opened while it is raining or snowing and precipitation gets inside.

[+shadowmib]

Even if you have a completely airtight and watertight container, you can still end up with a damp log in certain circumstances.

In addition to the humidity issue, sometimes caches are opened while it is raining or snowing and precipitation gets inside.

 

Exactly. Then the next person opens it and says "soggy log" then laments how your container is inferior because it "obviously leaks".

 

EDIT: BTW, for those screw top PVC caches.... if you go to the auto store and buy "dialectric grease" and put it on the threads, it helps water/air proof the container and will keep the threads from locking in extreme temperatures.. Dialectric grease is a non conductive silicone grease intended to protect electrical circuits from water damage. People generally use it to put in their spark plug boots to keep moisture off the contacts.

Edited March 18, 2011 by shadowmib

[+BlueDeuce]

Should PVC tubes be banned as cache containers? They're a classic bad container: frequently difficult to open despite that not being the intent (as evidence by their showing up on 1-2 star difficulty caches) and not watertight. I have also seem them crack.

 

But in addition to being arguably worse containers than film cans (which at least open easily), of all cache containers they seem most likely to be mistaken for a pipe bomb or similar dangerous device.

 

Do you think these issues enough to need a ban in the guidelines? Should any legal container be banned by the geocaching guidelines?

 

Of the few PVC pipes I've found they were pretty well maintained. Sometimes hard to screw the top back in but not impossible if you try. I can see why the pipe could be mistaken for a bomb but actually I' more surprised why the ammo-can isn't suspected as being dangerous more often then it is. Perhaps it's that a pipe is usually placed in a urban area more often than the ammo-can.

[AZcachemeister]

Probably already been noted, but how can the reviewer know what the container is unless the owner posts a reviewer not stating that the container looks like a bomb?

This is something that only the locals can address, and they should well address it.

Only the local community can help the new cachers in their area understand the ins and outs of the game.

[knowschad]

Probably already been noted, but how can the reviewer know what the container is unless the owner posts a reviewer not stating that the container looks like a bomb?

This is something that only the locals can address, and they should well address it.

Only the local community can help the new cachers in their area understand the ins and outs of the game.

 

I have to wonder if anybody has ever done that. Anybody?

[+BlueDeuce]

Probably already been noted, but how can the reviewer know what the container is unless the owner posts a reviewer not stating that the container looks like a bomb?

This is something that only the locals can address, and they should well address it.

Only the local community can help the new cachers in their area understand the ins and outs of the game.

 

I have to wonder if anybody has ever done that. Anybody?

 

I've seen people asking if a fake hand-grenade would make an appropriate travel bug, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone asked a reviewer about some sort of Stay-away-from-me container.

[+Pserine]

I've got several PVC containers that never leak or crack. Here's the secret : schedule 40 PVC pipe,NO screw on lid.Screw-on lids leak because it's nearly impossible to get a tight seal. I use test plugs (from Home Depot) that are rubber plugs that tighten against the PVC tube walls.You will break your hand before you break scd.40pipe. Here's a link with photos.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Search?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=mechanical+test+plug&storeId=10051

[+xipotec]

All the pvc i have seen, and its only a couple were obviously used to save money, not to make a good cache. They look nothing like the ones posted here.

 

Unfortunatly , several of the caches i have visited were obviously not thought out because the materials were cheap and the caches were falling apart. One has finally bit the dust due to the continued use of cheap containers.

 

Pvc can be very durable, if its made with skill.

[+Chief301]

I've got several PVC containers that never leak or crack. Here's the secret : schedule 40 PVC pipe,NO screw on lid.Screw-on lids leak because it's nearly impossible to get a tight seal. I use test plugs (from Home Depot) that are rubber plugs that tighten against the PVC tube walls.You will break your hand before you break scd.40pipe. Here's a link with photos.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Search?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=mechanical+test+plug&storeId=10051

 

I found one like that a while back and I remember thinking that it was possibly the most waterproof container you could make. I'm surprised it isn't used more often.

 

Having said that, however, the one I found had the container hanging in a tree as placed but the plug was laying on the ground. A previous finder had also mentioned that they found the plug on the ground. What I figure is that someone who didn't how that sort of plug works just shoved it in the end of the tube and didn't tighten the screw. That's the only downside I can see to that kind of container.

 

We call those plumber's plugs in the industrial world.

[+Viajero Perdido]

They're popular as summit registers on mountaintops. They're indestructible; lightning bolts just bounce right off 'em. Not always perfectly watertight, but close enough.

 

This is a summit register. The log contained a bunch of geo-nicknames (mountaineers use real names) because the nearby cache has bad coords and is hidden away - unlike the register.

[4wheelin_fool]

I've got several PVC containers that never leak or crack. Here's the secret : schedule 40 PVC pipe,NO screw on lid.Screw-on lids leak because it's nearly impossible to get a tight seal. I use test plugs (from Home Depot) that are rubber plugs that tighten against the PVC tube walls.You will break your hand before you break scd.40pipe. Here's a link with photos.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Search?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=mechanical+test+plug&storeId=10051

 

I found one like that a while back and I remember thinking that it was possibly the most waterproof container you could make. I'm surprised it isn't used more often.

 

Having said that, however, the one I found had the container hanging in a tree as placed but the plug was laying on the ground. A previous finder had also mentioned that they found the plug on the ground. What I figure is that someone who didn't how that sort of plug works just shoved it in the end of the tube and didn't tighten the screw. That's the only downside I can see to that kind of container.

 

We call those plumber's plugs in the industrial world.

 

Initially those plugs work fine, but after some use they fail to open enough to stay in and are lousy. I've found more than a few which have stopped working.

 

Screw in plugs get stuck and are nearly impossible to remove without a tool, as well as letting in water through the threads.

 

If they are placed anywhere other than deep in the woods, there is also the risk of getting a call from the bomb squad. Overall a bad idea all around.

[+murrayegger]

They're popular as summit registers on mountaintops. They're indestructible; lightning bolts just bounce right off 'em. Not always perfectly watertight, but close enough.

 

This is a summit register. The log contained a bunch of geo-nicknames (mountaineers use real names) because the nearby cache has bad coords and is hidden away - unlike the register.

 

That is ABS I believe. If you actually use the solvent and that proper plug you see in the photo with an O-Ring seal they work well. I've had a 3.5" one out this winter and it is nice and dry yet.

[+wmpastor]

If you are going to ban PVC pipe because it can be mistaken for a bomb... well, be sure to ban stuffed ponies, too.

 

That sure seemed like an excessive amount of an explosion to prevent the stuffed horse from exploding.

Maybe the teacher was thinking of the story of the Trojan Horse. That was an innocent-looking fake horse also. Careful if your toddler loses her teddy bear in the schoolyard. It will be blown up long before she realizes it's missing!

 

[+wmpastor]

They're popular as summit registers on mountaintops. They're indestructible; lightning bolts just bounce right off 'em. Not always perfectly watertight, but close enough.

 

This is a summit register. The log contained a bunch of geo-nicknames (mountaineers use real names) because the nearby cache has bad coords and is hidden away - unlike the register.

The cachers should have realized that reviewers would find fault with the screw in the rock....

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I use test plugs (from Home Depot) that are rubber plugs that tighten against the PVC tube walls.You will break your hand before you break scd.40pipe.

 

I tried that, once, after having found one just like it. Some people couldn't get it back on right, probably because of the finger strength required to turn the nut. At any rate, I kept finding the lid on the ground, or missing (probably fell into the water), and I got tired of replacing it. It would have been a great idea for a water-tight container if the finders could use it correctly.

 

User error is something I'm learning to account for. One of the geocaches I just made had a lid that pops open when you push the big button in the middle. I thought it was simple enough, until I showed it to some people to guage how someone might respond to it in the field. People couldn't figure it out right away, so I wrote the word, "Push" right on the button. No matter how simple it seems to the cache owner, there's always going to be someone who doesn't get it, and that one person could be the death of the cache. It's worse when they can figure out how to retrieve or open the cache, but they can't figure out how to put it back. Then, you can just kiss it goodbye. As a rule of thumb, if putting it back is even slightly more difficult than retrieving or opening it, then there's going to be someone who compromises it. The test plugs you mention are, in fact, harder to close than to open, and I think that makes a bit of difference.

Edited March 23, 2013 by nonaeroterraqueous

[+Manville Possum]

Has anyone ever heard of a pipe bomb being made out of PVC? Seems like iron pipe would be the mad bombers material of choice.

 

Has anyone ever heard of a pipe bomb being hidden out in the middle of a forest? Seems like a crowded mall would be the mad bombers location of choice.

 

Only one. The guy had more at home, but stashed one in the woods in Dennis Cove, a local hiking destination. http://www.starhq.com/pipe-bomb-suspect-enters-guilty-plea/

 

I have found similar containers as summit registers in caves. I would not make one out of PVC and hide it as a geocache because I'm afraid that someone would confuse it as a pipe bomb. I have always enjoyed painting my geocaches camo, but lately I have left some clear on the bottom so you can see the contents. All the new ones placed by our State Parks are clear with the offical geocache stickers that you can buy from Groundspeak. Some of my listing in Parks have a offical park approved sticker that the land manager gave me, but I got in early when our State Parks started a geocaching program. You can even rent GPS units to go geocaching at some of our local parks in Virginia.

[+simpjkee]

If GS did decide to ban PVC caches, how would that be enforced? I'd assume the only way to enforce it would be for fellow cachers to find the caches and then turn in the cache to the reviewer. I don't think many cachers would want to be the bad guy like that over a PVC pipe.

[+Off Grid]

PVC pipe is often decried in these forums as being too easy to mistake for a pipe bomb. Why? Has anyone ever heard of a pipe bomb being made out of PVC? Seems like iron pipe would be the mad bombers material of choice.

 

Thank you!!! Common sense!!

[+uxorious]

PVC pipe is often decried in these forums as being too easy to mistake for a pipe bomb. Why? Has anyone ever heard of a pipe bomb being made out of PVC? Seems like iron pipe would be the mad bombers material of choice.

 

Thank you!!! Common sense!!

 

Maybe not so much common sense. Google images of PVC pipe bombs and you will see plenty of them.

[+Off Grid]

Should PVC tubes be banned as cache containers? They're a classic bad container: frequently difficult to open despite that not being the intent (as evidence by their showing up on 1-2 star difficulty caches) and not watertight. I have also seem them crack.

 

But in addition to being arguably worse containers than film cans (which at least open easily), of all cache containers they seem most likely to be mistaken for a pipe bomb or similar dangerous device.

 

Do you think these issues enough to need a ban in the guidelines? Should any legal container be banned by the geocaching guidelines?

 

A pipe bomb is not PVC made

 

And if your in canada were not as mental as the USA they would think twice here before over exaggerating on a pipe bomb in a tree