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Why the angst over caches in the ground?


cx1
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Been reading a lot in the forums as of late to somewhat get ready for a new geocaching season.

I have noticed that whenever anyone mentions a cache placed in any fashion that somehow interacts with the ground that there are several folks that either get quite upset or at least have a snide comment to make about it.

Clearly if no 'pointy' object is neither needed to place or find the cache I don't understand why people get so upset. I am curious as to why. Is there some long historic post war that transpired?

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Do you really question this???

 

What would the park look like if everyone brought a shovel and started digging where they "thought" the cache would be. It would soon look like the surface of the moon...... :D

Umm, a shovel is one of those forbidden 'pointy' things I believe. So are you saying because a cache hunter might break the rules to find a cache the cache should not be allowed even though the CO broke no rules placing it?

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Maybe I read your post wrong. I thought you were saying you don't have a problem with buried caches which are definately prohibited.

 

On the ground- no problem. Buried - big problem

 

"a cache placed in any fashion that somehow interacts with the ground"

not buried, buried would be bad I agree.

I'm talking more of a fake plant cache that has a small anchor like a dowel rod holding it in the ground. There seem to be people here that would be sure to have a negative comment about it. I don't understand why.

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Maybe I read your post wrong. I thought you were saying you don't have a problem with buried caches which are definately prohibited.

 

On the ground- no problem. Buried - big problem

 

"a cache placed in any fashion that somehow interacts with the ground"

not buried, buried would be bad I agree.

I'm talking more of a fake plant cache that has a small anchor like a dowel rod holding it in the ground. There seem to be people here that would be sure to have a negative comment about it. I don't understand why.

 

Most wouldn't have a problem with a dowel pushed into the ground but the ones who do should probably get more upset about velcro adhesive strips at bus stops and the like first.

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I've wanted to bury a large pail in the ground with a lid and place a cache INSIDE the pail. Then just a dusting of dirt or leaves to camouflage the pail. Wouldn't require any digging.

 

I've heard of this done with a cache in Arizona that I read about in someone's log. Sounded to me like a nice idea.

 

Of course, you wouldnt want to do this in any park. Only in places where you've received explicit permission to do so...

 

Is this ok or is this type of hide frowned upon also?

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I've wanted to bury a large pail in the ground with a lid and place a cache INSIDE the pail. Then just a dusting of dirt or leaves to camouflage the pail. Wouldn't require any digging.

 

I've heard of this done with a cache in Arizona that I read about in someone's log. Sounded to me like a nice idea.

 

Of course, you wouldnt want to do this in any park. Only in places where you've received explicit permission to do so...

 

Is this ok or is this type of hide frowned upon also?

 

Frowned upon unless it's your own property and even then some think it's questionable.

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Come to think of it, I seem to recall (after watching the video) the ORIGINAL "stash" is a bucket buried in the ground. Is it not?

 

Yes, and there was some serious drama that followed that resulted in the Original cache owner seperating himself from geocaching.

 

But that has nothing to do with the guidelines on burying caches.

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Geocaches that cause damage - to property, vegetation, whatever - have the potential to put geocaching in a bad light.

 

Many of us are on the forefront of dealing with public land managers, and everytime a cache gets publicity for causing a problem, it makes it harder to argue in favour of keeping geocaching from getting banned or restricted. Inconsiderate cache hides place the entire game at risk. It's worth talking about, and worth pointing out when it comes up.

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I've wanted to bury a large pail in the ground with a lid and place a cache INSIDE the pail. Then just a dusting of dirt or leaves to camouflage the pail. Wouldn't require any digging.

 

I've heard of this done with a cache in Arizona that I read about in someone's log. Sounded to me like a nice idea.

 

Of course, you wouldnt want to do this in any park. Only in places where you've received explicit permission to do so...

 

Is this ok or is this type of hide frowned upon also?

 

Frowned upon unless it's your own property and even then some think it's questionable.

The guidelines were changed long ago to prohibit buried caches because that was the original reason why caches became banned in National Parks after a certain incident caused all kinds of problems. They are only now starting to allow caches, but if they discover that caches are being buried again(even in other places), they may permanently ban them. Most parks prohibit digging and just a mere perception that someone might dig to hide one would cause a widespread ban. With that being said, pushing a narrow object an inch wide (or less)into the ground generally is ok.

 

You can find indents in the ground if you look long enough. I found one that I was certain that the CO buried, but then as I was walking away my foot went into the ground nearly up to my knee. I then walked around the area to try to purposely repeat what had happened and did it a few more times. It seems that the ground was sort of hollow due to a intense fire that burned through the area awhile ago. Another cache was hidden near a creek which was affected by the tides, and there was a animal hole which was enlarged by the creek and abandoned by the critter that had made it. The top of the ground was an open hole only about 6 inches wide, but it opened up into a mini cavern below it a few feet wide with a 12 inch wide tunnel leading down to the creek about 10 feet away. The cache was an ammo can chained to a root and pushed deep down the tunnel. I found another which was a 5 gallon bucket buried to the rim, but it had been there since '02 or so, before the guidelines had changed.

 

Dont do it! Just say no! :D

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Here's my thought of late:

 

Every time a hider pushes the envelope a little further, all the finders of that cache will then search for that style of hide at all future finds. In my mind that means that you are ever expanding the search space to more and more dangerous, damaging or illegals spots. However safe or secure the one particular hide might be, the next one isn't going to have those same particular safe guards.

 

Some examples that come to mind are the cache in the ground mentioned in this thread, or similar cache hidden in grass, caches hidden in electrical boxes etc. Just places they shouldn't be and if you know they aren't there, you won't resort to searching there and risking danger or damage.

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The region where we do the most of our geocaching, Belgium/Netherlands/Germany, hiding the cache in the ground with a lid on top with some soil, leaves and twigs, is about the most common form of hiding a cache, certainly for the larger sizes. These caches seem to require a minimum amount of digging when placed, but when looking for the cache no additional digging is required and the surroundings aren't disturbed.

 

I've always found this the most appropriate way of hiding them, because hiding a large ammo can above ground isn't really easy to do effectively. So I was quite surprised to find a rule that prohibits this. I can understand that there maybe is some sort of historical issue with this in the US, but over here it seems like less of a problem.

 

I've done caches over here in parks and conservation areas where the caches are definitely placed with the correct permissions of the owners and where they are hidden in the ground with a minimum amount of digging. So it looks like it is an acceptable form of hiding if all the parties involved agree.

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The region where we do the most of our geocaching, Belgium/Netherlands/Germany, hiding the cache in the ground with a lid on top with some soil, leaves and twigs, is about the most common form of hiding a cache, certainly for the larger sizes. These caches seem to require a minimum amount of digging when placed, but when looking for the cache no additional digging is required and the surroundings aren't disturbed.

 

I've always found this the most appropriate way of hiding them, because hiding a large ammo can above ground isn't really easy to do effectively. So I was quite surprised to find a rule that prohibits this. I can understand that there maybe is some sort of historical issue with this in the US, but over here it seems like less of a problem.

 

I've done caches over here in parks and conservation areas where the caches are definitely placed with the correct permissions of the owners and where they are hidden in the ground with a minimum amount of digging. So it looks like it is an acceptable form of hiding if all the parties involved agree.

It's easy to hide a large ammo can if you want to take the time and effort. Burying one isn't necessary.

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I've wanted to bury a large pail in the ground with a lid and place a cache INSIDE the pail. Then just a dusting of dirt or leaves to camouflage the pail. Wouldn't require any digging.

 

I've heard of this done with a cache in Arizona that I read about in someone's log. Sounded to me like a nice idea.

 

Of course, you wouldnt want to do this in any park. Only in places where you've received explicit permission to do so...

 

Is this ok or is this type of hide frowned upon also?

 

You can do what I did. I found a cinder block that was almost buried in the ground. I pulled it out and framed the hole to where my ammo can fit in it then covered it with a flat stone. It did make for a pretty good hide. There was no need for a pointy shovel or trowel to hide it so it passes the guide lines. You can do the same and hide you bucket.

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Keep in mind that often the appearance of being buried alone is enough to do damage, regardless of whether a pointy object was used or an existing hole was used.

 

A few involved with a cache placed in an existing hole and camouflaged (i.e. owner, reviewer, etc) may be aware of the circumstances. But a land manager might not (and that could be bad, especially if its a manager of a different park who is looking around to see what caching is all about before deciding whether or not to allow them in the other park, or if permission wasn't obtained, and so on). And other cachers might get the idea that doing that sort of hide is acceptable and hide one of their own using a pointy object. Those people won't know about the usage of an existing hole -- all they will see is a buried cache.

 

I'm not trying to be a negative nancy about all this, but I enjoy geocaching, and I tend to dislike things that potentially will have a negative impact on my ability to continue enjoying it.

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The region where we do the most of our geocaching, Belgium/Netherlands/Germany, hiding the cache in the ground with a lid on top with some soil, leaves and twigs, is about the most common form of hiding a cache, certainly for the larger sizes. These caches seem to require a minimum amount of digging when placed, but when looking for the cache no additional digging is required and the surroundings aren't disturbed.

 

I've always found this the most appropriate way of hiding them, because hiding a large ammo can above ground isn't really easy to do effectively. So I was quite surprised to find a rule that prohibits this. I can understand that there maybe is some sort of historical issue with this in the US, but over here it seems like less of a problem.

 

I've done caches over here in parks and conservation areas where the caches are definitely placed with the correct permissions of the owners and where they are hidden in the ground with a minimum amount of digging. So it looks like it is an acceptable form of hiding if all the parties involved agree.

It's easy to hide a large ammo can if you want to take the time and effort. Burying one isn't necessary.

 

Well it takes time and effort too to hide it correctly in the ground: digging a hole that just large enough, create a wooden support box with lid to put the ammo box or container in, making it flush with the forest floor and covering it up so it doesn't stick out against the surroundings.

 

To hide it above ground you would have to conceal it as a big rock or tree stump I guess which would indeed take at least as much effort. I'd be interested to know a few above ground alternatives.

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I can understand that there maybe is some sort of historical issue with this in the US, but over here it seems like less of a problem.

Folks tend to think regionally and forget that other parts of the world are quite different.

 

As I understand it that's why the Guidelines remain minimal and flexible, and Reviewers have discretion... things which are a big deal in Chicago may be a non-issue in Bonn.

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I've wanted to bury a large pail in the ground with a lid and place a cache INSIDE the pail. Then just a dusting of dirt or leaves to camouflage the pail. Wouldn't require any digging.

 

 

Came across one awhile back that was a 5-6" PVC pipe container buried level with the ground. The lid was a sprinkler valve cover. Couple that with some leaves/twigs and it was easy to miss. Remember thinking it was pretty ingenious.

 

As long as no digging required and proper permissions, see no problem.

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It's easy to hide a large ammo can if you want to take the time and effort. Burying one isn't necessary.

 

Well it takes time and effort too to hide it correctly in the ground: digging a hole that just large enough, create a wooden support box with lid to put the ammo box or container in, making it flush with the forest floor and covering it up so it doesn't stick out against the surroundings.

 

To hide it above ground you would have to conceal it as a big rock or tree stump I guess which would indeed take at least as much effort. I'd be interested to know a few above ground alternatives.

 

Alternative to burying an ammo can.

 

th_3D-Ammo-Can-2.jpg

 

th_3D-Ammo-Can-underside.jpg

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I have noticed that whenever anyone mentions a cache placed in any fashion that somehow interacts with the ground that there are several folks that either get quite upset or at least have a snide comment to make about it.

 

Have to admit that sometimes (because of wording in the OP, of lack thereof) we have "read into" the fact that the CO or cacher has dug into the ground. I am sure you have noticed in many threads, that the actual question or statement is lacking in explanation, but oftentimes leads one to believe something that is quite true. Perhaps it is true.

 

Case in point:

 

but we find ourselves just digging, and searching and digging and searching to no avail.

 

Were they actually digging? Or not?

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I always get a kick out of those that forget that humans are God's creatures too. That somehow it's ok for the bears and deer to crap in the woods, the rodents and rabbits can destroy vegitation, but we must cleanup after our dogs and walk through woods leaving no trace. You over-reacting greenies understand my point too.. I am not advocating that we destroy the planet but the notion that leaving your dog crap lying in the woods or poking some hole in the ground being bad is ludicrous. The greatest comment was the one about the park looking like the face of the moon. I actually spit coffee on my screen.. thanks for that.

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I think all cachers need to do everything we can to dispell the notion that this is a game about 'buried' treasure.

 

Any cache that 'skirts the guidelines' and that re-inforces the treasure notion just pushes landmanagers to want to ban the game or create very restrictive rules. The idea here is hide things in plain sight via creativity. I have personally seen this in action. Caches that interact in the ground are generally a bad idea. 'just sayin

Edited by StarBrand
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I always get a kick out of those that forget that humans are God's creatures too. That somehow it's ok for the bears and deer to crap in the woods, the rodents and rabbits can destroy vegitation, but we must cleanup after our dogs and walk through woods leaving no trace. You over-reacting greenies understand my point too.. I am not advocating that we destroy the planet but the notion that leaving your dog crap lying in the woods or poking some hole in the ground being bad is ludicrous. The greatest comment was the one about the park looking like the face of the moon. I actually spit coffee on my screen.. thanks for that.

It's not about being green, it's about being allowed to play the game on other people's property.

 

If this game had the image of buried caches then land owners would immediately get the impression that cachers are going to come dig on their land.

 

Metal detecting, for example, has a reputation for digging holes and is therefore banned in quite a large percentage of lands.

 

Very few land owners or managers want strangers coming to dig on their land, so if they thought we'd show up with shovel in hand the immediate and natural reaction would be for them to say "No geocaching allowed"

 

Since Groundspeak and geocachers have been very vocal about the 'no digging' rules (yes, this is one of the Guidelines that is pretty much a rule) land owners (cautiously) take our word for it that no digging will be done and allow our game.

 

It's not about whether digging a hole damages anything, it's about keeping the image of our game up to the land owner's expectations.

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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I always get a kick out of those that forget that humans are God's creatures too. That somehow it's ok for the bears and deer to crap in the woods, the rodents and rabbits can destroy vegitation, but we must cleanup after our dogs and walk through woods leaving no trace. You over-reacting greenies understand my point too.. I am not advocating that we destroy the planet but the notion that leaving your dog crap lying in the woods or poking some hole in the ground being bad is ludicrous. The greatest comment was the one about the park looking like the face of the moon. I actually spit coffee on my screen.. thanks for that.

It's not about being green, it's about being allowed to play the game on other people's property.

 

If this game had the image of buried caches then land owners would immediately get the impression that cachers are going to come dig on their land.

 

Metal detecting, for example, has a reputation for digging holes and is therefore banned in quite a large percentage of lands.

 

Very few land owners or managers want strangers coming to dig on their land, so if they thought we'd show up with shovel in hand the immediate and natural reaction would be for them to say "No geocaching allowed"

 

Since Groundspeak and geocachers have been very vocal about the 'no digging' rules (yes, this is one of the Guidelines that is pretty much a rule) land owners (cautiously) take our word for it that no digging will be done and allow our game.

 

It's not about whether digging a hole damages anything, it's about keeping the image of our game up to the land owner's expectations.

 

Exactly and it's a point that too many people just don't get.

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I can understand that there maybe is some sort of historical issue with this in the US, but over here it seems like less of a problem.

Folks tend to think regionally and forget that other parts of the world are quite different.

 

Not me. In the next month I'll have the opportunity to find geocaches in seven different countries on three different continents.

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My take on it... and I am by no means an authority btw :) ,its about the Guidelines and their purpose. Yes I have seen some "liberal" interpretations, and almost every "rule" has some exceptions or extenuating circumstances where it might be viewed in a different light... but..

 

I like to believe I can do anything I want on (including "defacing") property that I own! Problem is... when Ido that, I more or less unintentionally send a message to others that it is ok that they do that.

 

Every day there are new people joining the game. Just read the Getting Started thread. Not pointing fingers or making accusations, but many of the questions being asked, have been answered in the Guidelines. So I assume people are not taking the time to read them.

 

That being said ,I would add, I am astounded at the lengths some cachers will go to to get the smiley. I have seen a fake electrical outlet hide in a courtyard between two buildings on a State University result in outlet covers being taken off the building, and left laying in the grass. Did cachers do it?? I cannot say. I can say the Physical Plant personnel are not prone to leaving live electrical circuits exposed on campus. I have seen wood trim removed and sheet metal pulled back in locations of a cache.

 

Even further... if you do "skirt" or ignore the guidelines and bury a cache, is it sound logic to think a cache hunter is not going to dig to find it? But then... they don't know where it is exactly (you do)... so where do they start digging?? As far as "pushing" something into the ground, (bison tubes, preforms,fake sprinklers, ect..) You and I may believe this does not violate any Guidelines. But when the cache seekers arrive, are they going to be able to find it without digging? Or will they even try, without digging?

 

Now I know cache owners are going to say they are not responsible for the actions of other cachers, but is this true? I think any CO shares in the responsibility. It was your cache that brought them here.

 

I am not saying caching should be outlawed because of this irresponsibility. Even though my words could be twisted to imply that. What I am saying, or in actuallity ,asking, is that cache owners reconsider the impact of their hides, and cache seekers reconsider the impact of their seeking.

 

Call them Guidelines, suggestions, rules, whatever. When you bend or outright break them, it has a "ripple effect". Someone else takes it a step further, and so on, and so on. Eventually, if not kept in check, it becomes a free-for-all!

 

Its all about common sense. Those who have it, feel free to ignore this post, it is not directed at you. Those who are lacking somewhat, please take a moment to consider it. Those who don't have it at all... have you ever thought about taking up stamp collecting instead of Geocaching? :D

 

I see the angst (and share it on some topics) but a lot of it could have been avoided if we could all use a little more common sense, respect for the location, and the cache, and the Owner, and perhaps a little more courtesy. I don't think that is too much to ask!

 

Just my take on it, and I am nobody but another angsty cacher!

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... In the next month I'll have the opportunity to find geocaches in seven different countries on three different continents.

I am SO jealous! I love traveling. I got to see a good bit of the world during 10 years in the Navy and then for 28 years my consulting business kept me on the road; between them and personal travel I got to see every US state, most large cities, 17 countries and to live in 3. Since retiring it is the part of my work that I miss the most!

 

I wish I had known about geocaching before 2003... it would be so cool to have dipped a TB in a cache in all those places as a sort of travelogue.

 

Have fun!

 

Hey! How about writing up your trip(s) to share with other geocachers in The Online Geocacher? We would love to read about that!

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I always get a kick out of those that forget that humans are God's creatures too. That somehow it's ok for the bears and deer to crap in the woods, the rodents and rabbits can destroy vegitation, but we must cleanup after our dogs and walk through woods leaving no trace. You over-reacting greenies understand my point too.. I am not advocating that we destroy the planet but the notion that leaving your dog crap lying in the woods or poking some hole in the ground being bad is ludicrous. The greatest was the one about the park looking like the face of the moon. I actually spit coffee on my screen.. thanks for that.

I get a kick out of this comment.Yes i do feel it is ok for bears,deer and rodents to do what they do in "their"environment.But,when we are in"their"environment we introduce a new element to the area.If these same animals did their thing in your yard you would have a problem with it for sure.Show the same respect.Humans do enough damage to land without adding more by digging holes.I find it surprising that the rules are written in plain english but people feel the need to question and attemp to "skirt"them.There are many other methods of hiding a cache,use some creativity.Play by the rules or find another game.

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My take on it... and I am by no means an authority btw :) ,its about the Guidelines and their purpose. Yes I have seen some "liberal" interpretations, and almost every "rule" has some exceptions or extenuating circumstances where it might be viewed in a different light... but..

 

I like to believe I can do anything I want on (including "defacing") property that I own! Problem is... when Ido that, I more or less unintentionally send a message to others that it is ok that they do that.

 

Every day there are new people joining the game. Just read the Getting Started thread. Not pointing fingers or making accusations, but many of the questions being asked, have been answered in the Guidelines. So I assume people are not taking the time to read them.

 

That being said ,I would add, I am astounded at the lengths some cachers will go to to get the smiley. I have seen a fake electrical outlet hide in a courtyard between two buildings on a State University result in outlet covers being taken off the building, and left laying in the grass. Did cachers do it?? I cannot say. I can say the Physical Plant personnel are not prone to leaving live electrical circuits exposed on campus. I have seen wood trim removed and sheet metal pulled back in locations of a cache.

 

Even further... if you do "skirt" or ignore the guidelines and bury a cache, is it sound logic to think a cache hunter is not going to dig to find it? But then... they don't know where it is exactly (you do)... so where do they start digging?? As far as "pushing" something into the ground, (bison tubes, preforms,fake sprinklers, ect..) You and I may believe this does not violate any Guidelines. But when the cache seekers arrive, are they going to be able to find it without digging? Or will they even try, without digging?

 

Now I know cache owners are going to say they are not responsible for the actions of other cachers, but is this true? I think any CO shares in the responsibility. It was your cache that brought them here.

 

I am not saying caching should be outlawed because of this irresponsibility. Even though my words could be twisted to imply that. What I am saying, or in actuallity ,asking, is that cache owners reconsider the impact of their hides, and cache seekers reconsider the impact of their seeking.

 

Call them Guidelines, suggestions, rules, whatever. When you bend or outright break them, it has a "ripple effect". Someone else takes it a step further, and so on, and so on. Eventually, if not kept in check, it becomes a free-for-all!

 

Its all about common sense. Those who have it, feel free to ignore this post, it is not directed at you. Those who are lacking somewhat, please take a moment to consider it. Those who don't have it at all... have you ever thought about taking up stamp collecting instead of Geocaching? :D

 

I see the angst (and share it on some topics) but a lot of it could have been avoided if we could all use a little more common sense, respect for the location, and the cache, and the Owner, and perhaps a little more courtesy. I don't think that is too much to ask!

 

Just my take on it, and I am nobody but another angsty cacher!

well said.

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It is a fine line to walk, but my inclination would be to judge hides in the spirit of the law/rules and not to the letter. There will always be people, lacking enough common sense, that will ignore them, whatever amount of rules you create, and tear up the environment around a cache hide making it look like a nuclear bomb site. A partial solution to this, which is frequently used over here, is to add enough clear hint and/or a spoiler picture. This enables most cachers to find the box, even when hidden in the ground, without much hassle or destruction of the surroundings with the added benefit that the cache box will remain perfectly hidden for muggles.

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I always get a kick out of those that forget that humans are God's creatures too. That somehow it's ok for the bears and deer to crap in the woods, the rodents and rabbits can destroy vegitation, but we must cleanup after our dogs and walk through woods leaving no trace. You over-reacting greenies understand my point too.. I am not advocating that we destroy the planet but the notion that leaving your dog crap lying in the woods or poking some hole in the ground being bad is ludicrous. The greatest comment was the one about the park looking like the face of the moon. I actually spit coffee on my screen.. thanks for that.

 

Picking up dog poo is more about aesthetics than environmentalism. If everybody leaves dog poo on trails, sidewalks, soccer field, etc. it becomes pretty unpleasant for other people to use those spaces. Feces also carries disease.

 

Regardless of what you think about "greenies," the fact remains that many public spaces have strict rules about things like digging and ripping up vegetation. If geocachers disregard that, it won't take long for this game to be banned and restricted all over the place.

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It is a fine line to walk, but my inclination would be to judge hides in the spirit of the law/rules and not to the letter. There will always be people, lacking enough common sense, that will ignore them, whatever amount of rules you create, and tear up the environment around a cache hide making it look like a nuclear bomb site. A partial solution to this, which is frequently used over here, is to add enough clear hint and/or a spoiler picture. This enables most cachers to find the box, even when hidden in the ground, without much hassle or destruction of the surroundings with the added benefit that the cache box will remain perfectly hidden for muggles.

I will chose to "walk the line".And I believe rules should be followed to the letter.I would not want to explain to a park ranger as I am digging a hole in the ground that "I dont follow the rules to the letter".Other people who"lack common sense and ignore the rules"does not make it ok for me to do the same.As far as "without MUCH hassle or destruction",I feel that is unacceptable.I will do all I can to avoid hassle and destruction.Even at the expence of it being muggled.

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After reading the rules Scout den built out first cache. We built a 2 to 3 foot pvc pipe buried it in the ground probally 10 inches. We had about 15 inches above the ground. The actual cache was a red welding rod container the slide inside the pvc pipe. It looked like a sewer pipe. The actual cache was above the ground and had nothing to do with the ground. I ended up having to change it. Ended up cutting pipe of and attaching a small base to it to help it stand upright. I guess it was a learning lesson.

 

Cache Pic 1

Cache Pic 2

Cache Pic 3

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After reading the rules Scout den built out first cache. We built a 2 to 3 foot pvc pipe buried it in the ground probally 10 inches. We had about 15 inches above the ground. The actual cache was a red welding rod container the slide inside the pvc pipe. It looked like a sewer pipe. The actual cache was above the ground and had nothing to do with the ground. I ended up having to change it. Ended up cutting pipe of and attaching a small base to it to help it stand upright. I guess it was a learning lesson.

 

Cache Pic 1

Cache Pic 2

Cache Pic 3

But it did have something to do with the ground.."We built a 2 to 3 foot pvc pipe buried it in the ground probally 10 inches. "

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After reading the rules Scout den built out first cache. We built a 2 to 3 foot pvc pipe buried it in the ground probally 10 inches. We had about 15 inches above the ground. The actual cache was a red welding rod container the slide inside the pvc pipe. It looked like a sewer pipe. The actual cache was above the ground and had nothing to do with the ground. I ended up having to change it. Ended up cutting pipe of and attaching a small base to it to help it stand upright. I guess it was a learning lesson.

 

Cache Pic 1

Cache Pic 2

Cache Pic 3

 

 

While I can certainly understand your thinking that it might not have been a bid deal to do it the way you did it to begin with, I think the fact that your changed it was a great thing. The Scouts learned that, whether you call them guidelines, rules, suggestions, whatever, they are there for a reason. I hope you explained to them the reason you made the changes to the cache. I salute you for trying to teach them that in the way you responded! Cool idea too!! Looks like a sturdy, dry container. I am sure there are many who would appreciate just that one point!!

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After reading the rules Scout den built out first cache. We built a 2 to 3 foot pvc pipe buried it in the ground probally 10 inches. We had about 15 inches above the ground. The actual cache was a red welding rod container the slide inside the pvc pipe. It looked like a sewer pipe. The actual cache was above the ground and had nothing to do with the ground. I ended up having to change it. Ended up cutting pipe of and attaching a small base to it to help it stand upright. I guess it was a learning lesson.

 

Cache Pic 1

Cache Pic 2

Cache Pic 3

 

 

While I can certainly understand your thinking that it might not have been a bid deal to do it the way you did it to begin with, I think the fact that your changed it was a great thing. The Scouts learned that, whether you call them guidelines, rules, suggestions, whatever, they are there for a reason. I hope you explained to them the reason you made the changes to the cache. I salute you for trying to teach them that in the way you responded! Cool idea too!! Looks like a sturdy, dry container. I am sure there are many who would appreciate just that one point!!

I should have added the above sentiment to my post,I agree 100%.You took it in stride.We can all learn a lesson from that :)

Edited by chachi44089
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It is a fine line to walk, but my inclination would be to judge hides in the spirit of the law/rules and not to the letter. There will always be people, lacking enough common sense, that will ignore them, whatever amount of rules you create, and tear up the environment around a cache hide making it look like a nuclear bomb site. A partial solution to this, which is frequently used over here, is to add enough clear hint and/or a spoiler picture. This enables most cachers to find the box, even when hidden in the ground, without much hassle or destruction of the surroundings with the added benefit that the cache box will remain perfectly hidden for muggles.

I will chose to "walk the line".And I believe rules should be followed to the letter.I would not want to explain to a park ranger as I am digging a hole in the ground that "I dont follow the rules to the letter".Other people who"lack common sense and ignore the rules"does not make it ok for me to do the same.As far as "without MUCH hassle or destruction",I feel that is unacceptable.I will do all I can to avoid hassle and destruction.Even at the expence of it being muggled.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm just giving a general idea of how the rules seem to be applied over here. A good example is this cache, a multi that is placed in a conservation area together with the organisation that manages it and where a lot of the WPs are PVC pipes in the ground covered by a custom fitting stump. Everyone (even the tree huggers) except the geocaching guidelines, seems to agree in this case that hiding the WPs and even the cache container in the ground isn't such a big deal.

 

We certainly don't see geocaching in the news here due to caches being hidden in the ground and thus pissing of various organisations, government or not, or needing to be blown up by the bomb squad. It looks to me like the rule was made to please the national parks & rangers in the USA, but I find it strange this should make the rule the same all over the globe. It looks like a minority controlling a majority. I'd find it more logical to expand the existing rule to allow cases such as the one I mentioned where the parties involved are in agreement about hiding caches in the ground.

 

I'm not aiming to offend anyone here, I'm just offering my 2 cents.

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I am glad that I read this. I am new to caching, about two months in. I have had more fun actually hiding caches than finding them. Based on what I have read here my next planned cache would have been frowned upon. I will re-think how I place it. What I am gathering here is the fact that I should be ok if I use an existing hole or gap. Am I right is thinking this?

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Picking up dog poo is more about aesthetics.

:grin::grin: Glad you enjoy it. If John Lennon were still alive, he might write, "Happiness... is a warm baggie". OK, so the phrasing sucks, but so does picking up dog poo. Some of the signs I've seen say "Do it for the chilndren" (did I misspell that right?) as though kids used to die from dog poop.

 

Sorry... what were we talking about? Oh yeah... caches in the ground. Not allowed. Or has that already been mentioned? :wub:

Edited by knowschad
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After reading the rules Scout den built out first cache. We built a 2 to 3 foot pvc pipe buried it in the ground probally 10 inches. We had about 15 inches above the ground. The actual cache was a red welding rod container the slide inside the pvc pipe. It looked like a sewer pipe. The actual cache was above the ground and had nothing to do with the ground. I ended up having to change it. Ended up cutting pipe of and attaching a small base to it to help it stand upright. I guess it was a learning lesson.

 

Cache Pic 1

Cache Pic 2

Cache Pic 3

Man, I'd have been heading right for that rake like a madman!!!
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I always get a kick out of those that forget that humans are God's creatures too. That somehow it's ok for the bears and deer to crap in the woods, the rodents and rabbits can destroy vegitation, but we must cleanup after our dogs and walk through woods leaving no trace.

 

Around here towns hire professional hunters to kill deer who are over browsing an area and will capture and euthanize problem bear. Do geocachers really want to be considered a "problem" by local officials?

 

I am glad that I read this. I am new to caching, about two months in. I have had more fun actually hiding caches than finding them. Based on what I have read here my next planned cache would have been frowned upon. I will re-think how I place it. What I am gathering here is the fact that I should be ok if I use an existing hole or gap. Am I right is thinking this?

 

You are correct. I 've hidden caches using pre-existing holes. In those cases I mention the fact that the hole is pre-existing on cache page

Edited by briansnat
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It's easy to hide a large ammo can if you want to take the time and effort. Burying one isn't necessary.

 

Well it takes time and effort too to hide it correctly in the ground: digging a hole that just large enough, create a wooden support box with lid to put the ammo box or container in, making it flush with the forest floor and covering it up so it doesn't stick out against the surroundings.

 

To hide it above ground you would have to conceal it as a big rock or tree stump I guess which would indeed take at least as much effort. I'd be interested to know a few above ground alternatives.

 

Alternative to burying an ammo can.

 

th_3D-Ammo-Can-2.jpg

 

I would SO have been calling the EPA if I had found that, KF! It seriously needs tissue cultures at the very least. Did a UFO land anywhere nearby? Looks to me like the aliens tried the burritos and they did not agree with each other.
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I always get a kick out of those that forget that humans are God's creatures too. That somehow it's ok for the bears and deer to crap in the woods, the rodents and rabbits can destroy vegitation, but we must cleanup after our dogs and walk through woods leaving no trace. You over-reacting greenies understand my point too.. I am not advocating that we destroy the planet but the notion that leaving your dog crap lying in the woods or poking some hole in the ground being bad is ludicrous. The greatest comment was the one about the park looking like the face of the moon. I actually spit coffee on my screen.. thanks for that.

It's not about being green, it's about being allowed to play the game on other people's property.

 

If this game had the image of buried caches then land owners would immediately get the impression that cachers are going to come dig on their land.

 

Metal detecting, for example, has a reputation for digging holes and is therefore banned in quite a large percentage of lands.

 

Very few land owners or managers want strangers coming to dig on their land, so if they thought we'd show up with shovel in hand the immediate and natural reaction would be for them to say "No geocaching allowed"

 

Since Groundspeak and geocachers have been very vocal about the 'no digging' rules (yes, this is one of the Guidelines that is pretty much a rule) land owners (cautiously) take our word for it that no digging will be done and allow our game.

 

It's not about whether digging a hole damages anything, it's about keeping the image of our game up to the land owner's expectations.

 

I was overreacting. But it should also be mentioned that this game, at least where I am from, does not have the image of being buried treasure. I've never done and would never advocate any of the things mentioned. But it still irritates me how some of you (the collective you) somehow think humans have to live our lives never leaving the sidewalk or walking around wearing white gloves.. forget about the land manager aspect.

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I always get a kick out of those that forget that humans are God's creatures too. That somehow it's ok for the bears and deer to crap in the woods, the rodents and rabbits can destroy vegitation, but we must cleanup after our dogs and walk through woods leaving no trace.

 

Around here towns hire professional hunters to kill deer who are over browsing an area and will capture and euthanize problem bear. Do geocachers really want to be considered a "problem" by local officials?

 

Come on, I find it difficult to believe that you think that statement somehow correlates to buried caches.

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I always get a kick out of those that forget that humans are God's creatures too. That somehow it's ok for the bears and deer to crap in the woods, the rodents and rabbits can destroy vegitation, but we must cleanup after our dogs and walk through woods leaving no trace.

 

Around here towns hire professional hunters to kill deer who are over browsing an area and will capture and euthanize problem bear. Do geocachers really want to be considered a "problem" by local officials?

 

Come on, I find it difficult to believe that you think that statement somehow correlates to buried caches.

 

I kind of feel the same way about your original statement. :wub:

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I was overreacting. But it should also be mentioned that this game, at least where I am from, does not have the image of being buried treasure. I've never done and would never advocate any of the things mentioned. But it still irritates me how some of you (the collective you) somehow think humans have to live our lives never leaving the sidewalk or walking around wearing white gloves.. forget about the land manager aspect.

 

I think your hyperbole drive is stuck at warp 9. Nobody was strolling the militant eco-warrior lane until you put up the detour sign.

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