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Would you be offended by a swastika on a cache container?


ArtieD
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Because some have pointed out that the symbol is not the problem? Because we all have the power to reconsider our prejudices in light of new information? Because we have become enlightened? I'm not saying that any of these are true for you, but you ask why... there are three potential reasons, should you chose to use them.

 

Even if everyone reading this becomes enlightened today and realizes that the symbol is not the reality, the map is not the territory, and words are just pretty puffs of air, it doesn't address what happens when someone opens this cache in the field.

 

That is the real question here. Is this symbol too redolent with malice to be used? Or has enough time moved on that no one would be offended? My guess is that a cache in Missouri would find few people offended but that there would still be a small number who would be. The same cache in New Jersey or Illinois would have a different audience and probably more negative reactions. Putting the cache in Germany would probably be extremely provocative.

 

Know your audience and be careful with your words and symbols. And yes, a local reviewer would be an excellent resource for checking on these things.

 

Carolyn

 

And who is to say that not being offended by a symbol is an enlightened position? I think it's great that some folks are not stirred to anger when they view this symbol. The world needs cool hearts like these. I am not one of them.

I know that the symbol has a history far deeper than the Nazi's.

I'm completely sure that the weavers of wastro's baskets (which are most likely very nice) were not disciples of Hitler, Himmler or any other prominent Nazi.

But when I see a swastika, I bristle inside. If being enlightened means not feeling that stir of emotion, than please, assign me my cave and cut off the power, for I deserve the darkness.

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Nazi Germany existed. The theme of the cache doesn't seem to be one that celebrates the Nazi ideals. Given the theme I would not be offended in any way.

 

To my way of thinking, you just nailed it, right there. First, let's not try to pretend that it didn't exist. That is worse than stupid... it is dangerous to stick our heads in the sand.

 

But moreover, consider the intent. Does the OP intetend to glamorize, or ridicule (or other) the ideology behind the symbol. It is my perception that he intends nothing more than to recollect our good feelings of conquering that evil.

 

By the way, we are using the word, "swastika" freely here without anyone saying that they are offended by that. We have even used the word "Nazi", again without apparent offense. Words are symbols just as pictures are symbols. Why would you be more offended by a picture of a swastika than you would be offended by the word?

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Context is everything. The ultra sensitive need not apply.

 

Yeah, those ultra sensitive Jewish people really get on my nerves. /s

 

Was that comment really necessary? It really puts you in a very bad light.

 

Sorry, I thought everybody was familiar with the sarcasm tag. "/s". I abhor racism.

Edited by TheMadScotsman
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Context is everything. The ultra sensitive need not apply.

 

Yeah, those ultra sensitive Jewish people really get on my nerves. /s

 

Was that comment really necessary? It really puts you in a very bad light.

 

Sorry, I thought everybody was familiar with the sarcasm tag. "/s". I abhor racism.

 

I don't think that there was any racism in the post that you were replying to, and amazingly, so far no racism in this entire post! (in my opinion, of course)

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Nazi Germany existed. The theme of the cache doesn't seem to be one that celebrates the Nazi ideals. Given the theme I would not be offended in any way.

 

To my way of thinking, you just nailed it, right there. First, let's not try to pretend that it didn't exist. That is worse than stupid... it is dangerous to stick our heads in the sand.

 

But moreover, consider the intent. Does the OP intetend to glamorize, or ridicule (or other) the ideology behind the symbol. It is my perception that he intends nothing more than to recollect our good feelings of conquering that evil.

 

By the way, we are using the word, "swastika" freely here without anyone saying that they are offended by that. We have even used the word "Nazi", again without apparent offense. Words are symbols just as pictures are symbols. Why would you be more offended by a picture of a swastika than you would be offended by the word?

 

Whoa - I put something out there that could be seen WAY different than I intended. Better to delete it!! Thank you all for getting me to think.

Edited by doingitoldschool
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Context is everything. The ultra sensitive need not apply.

 

Yeah, those ultra sensitive Jewish people really get on my nerves. /s

 

Was that comment really necessary? It really puts you in a very bad light.

 

Sorry, I thought everybody was familiar with the sarcasm tag. "/s". I abhor racism.

 

Never heard of the sarcasm tag. Besides, as far as I've read, the nazis killed more than jews. The killed mentally handicapped, the homosexual, heck, they even killed their fellow Germans who thought they were crazy.

 

Like I said, context is everything.

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Words are symbols just as pictures are symbols. Why would you be more offended by a picture of a swastika than you would be offended by the word?

 

That is a fascinating question, isn't it? Why are pictures so much more powerful than words? Even symbols, which are not quite like real pictures?

 

My guess is that it has to do with how far it is removed from reality. A picture is one level removed from the real. You're not seeing the real thing, but your mind doesn't have to do too much to evoke it because the picture is in front of you. Words are two levels removed from the real since they have to both evoke the picture in your mind and translate that into your understanding of reality. So does that mean that pictographic alphabets are more evocative?

 

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have the time and money to study this?

 

Carolyn

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Wouldn't it be wonderful to have the time and money to study this?

 

Carolyn

 

Actually, Carl Jung, Sigmond Freud, and probably many others have studied it. But that's about the extent of my knowledge beyond my own observations. And I do agree with DoingItOldSchool that the symbols often have more power that the words that they represent. But the words and the symbols mean little or nothing without the ideology... the speaches, the writings, the beliefs... that give them power. We are not afraid of the symbols, really... we are afraid of the power being reanimated. The symbol simply reminds us of that.

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Everything in it's context, so maybe using a symbol of hate in a game might not be the proper context for it.

 

Disclaimer - yes, i know the swastika ancient symbolpeaceloveharmonyblahblahblahzzzz. Sorry, don't care. If we're going to say everything in its context then the symbol has to be viewed in its context. Sorry the swastika got co-opted by savages, but in 99% of the people's contructs, the swastika is a symbol of Nazi Germany. That it was used by other people is mere trivia.

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Wouldn't it be wonderful to have the time and money to study this?

 

Carolyn

 

Actually, Carl Jung, Sigmond Freud, and probably many others have studied it. But that's about the extent of my knowledge beyond my own observations.

 

Lately, there's been a bunch of research in neuroscience on the salience of pictures vs. words that's really interesting but I am also sadly ignorant. It is one of several areas I think would be fascinating to do graduate work in. (Unfortunately, my beloved points out that being fascinated by a variety of fields is not the way to get a Ph.D., which is an exercise in narrowing one's interests.)

 

And I do agree with DoingItOldSchool that the symbols often have more power that the words that they represent. But the words and the symbols mean little or nothing without the ideology... the speaches, the writings, the beliefs... that give them power. We are not afraid of the symbols, really... we are afraid of the power being reanimated. The symbol simply reminds us of that.

 

I am not certain that fear is the animating emotion. It could be for some people, but my guess is that there is a melange of negative emotions stirred up by that symbol.

 

Carolyn

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The symbol is not evil. A symbol is incapable of evil. A symbol can only represent. What that symbol represents to you is evil and I do not for one second doubt that. But it is a matter of confusing the messenger with the message. Nazism was one of the most evil, twisted places the human mind has gone in written history. But the swastika is not Nazism.

 

That said... your feelings are your feelings, and I can't really argue to change them, so thanks for letting them be known.

 

There are major religions who would disagree with whether or not a symbol could be evil.

Many symbols are believed to be the gateway for evil, which makes them.....evil.

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Personally, I would not be offended by a swastika on this cache because I would know the theme of the cache, choose to participate, know what WWII was all about and that, yes, there were swastikas used in Nazi Germany. I think having the cache hidden inside another container is a wonderful idea, as the OP originally proposed.

 

However, that being said, I would shy away from using a symbol that invokes such reaction amongst people (as shown in this thread!). Perhaps using a different symbol that invokes less of a reaction would be more appropriate, such as the eagle or the iron cross.

Of course, you can always choose to not decorate the cache with any symbols, which may be your best bet. We know that symbols are not inherently themselves evil, but it is often hard to untangle the symbol from the ideology. (And although I would absolutely love the delve into that issue further, I want to get back to the OP's question.) Although the puzzle is very obviously a WWII cache, and the cacher (hopefully) knows the events of WWII, it may not be entirely wise to put a swastika on the cache, even though it fits with the theme. Try a different, less provocative symbol.

 

And yes, I would like to see the local reviewer involved.

 

(By the way, this sounds like a very cool cache idea! Very detailed and thought out, and I would love to do it, no matter what is decorated on the cache.)

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Everything in it's context, so maybe using a symbol of hate in a game might not be the proper context for it.

 

Disclaimer - yes, i know the swastika ancient symbolpeaceloveharmonyblahblahblahzzzz. Sorry, don't care. If we're going to say everything in its context then the symbol has to be viewed in its context. Sorry the swastika got co-opted by savages, but in 99% of the people's contructs, the swastika is a symbol of Nazi Germany. That it was used by other people is mere trivia.

 

Not to mention the OP specifically stated that the symbol would be used in connection to a puzzle that was, ightly, linked to Nazism (sp)

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would such markings be offensive to you if you were to find the cache?

Not at all. It's a picture, on a cache, not an advertisment for the restoration of Nazi Germany. Many branches of the Riffster family tree were trimmed by Hitler's goons, but I can't bring myself to be offended by a picture, on an ammo can, in the woods. Spray paint it on the side of my Jeep and we might have a different conversation. ;)

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I'm Jewish. I would probably have at least a tinge of offense, even if it's in keeping with the theme. I know you're putting it inside a locked box and all that, but if somehow, somebody accidentally didn't put the cache back and I came across it in the woods, I'd be very offended.

I guess you would have a problem visiting one of my favorite churches in Pittsburgh then, built in the early 1800, there are swastikas on the pillars that support the wrap around balcony. Before Hitler took the symbol as his own, it was also a christian cross. I think the idea is great, and I have SEVERAL members of my family who are practicing Jews.

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The swastika is a symbol that has been used since ancient times, and is no more representative of the Nazi movement than the ampersand.

Hitler deliberately chose the swastika for its deep-rooted meanings.

I would not be particularly disturbed by a swastika on a cache container, but (as has been stated),someone who finds it accidentally might over-react.

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Everything in it's context, so maybe using a symbol of hate in a game might not be the proper context for it.

 

Disclaimer - yes, i know the swastika ancient symbolpeaceloveharmonyblahblahblahzzzz. Sorry, don't care. If we're going to say everything in its context then the symbol has to be viewed in its context. Sorry the swastika got co-opted by savages, but in 99% of the people's contructs, the swastika is a symbol of Nazi Germany. That it was used by other people is mere trivia.

 

Yes please let's discuss this symbol in the context in which it is both normally placed and also specifically used in the cache. Lets not talk about other cultures whose symbol the nazi party coopted. That type of debate is at best tangentially academic; in this case we're discussing a nazi symbol on a geocache; let's make no bones about it because the cache doesn't.

 

Now let's think about what's being suggested: this would be on the final cache in a role-playing type cache whose decorations would serve to increase the immersion of the cacher in the scenario. it would be decorated by imagery that would be consistent with a fantasy type (specifically Indiana Jones) version of the third reich. In a traditional cache or random imagery this type of imagery would be offensive. However, this cache would only be seen by those who are participating in the puzzle, already aware of the theme. It would not be seen by random people walking by or someone looking at a traditional cache. Every single person who would, in theory, see the discussed decoration would be of a set who actively participated in the role playing cache and would be well-aware of the nature of the puzzle theme.

 

Then we discuss whether that imagery would be appropriate for that set of finders. While you can't please everyone, the idea would to be to place a cache that wouldn't offend a statistically significant percentage of these searchers. Perhaps a better question is if when further responders think about whether, in the context of the described cache, rather than as an abstract symbol, this would be an offensive thing, it might be more illuminating as to the potential response to the cache.

 

Based on the heartfelt responses thus far, I think that we've seen that reactions to that symbol run quite deep; it's an emotional nerve. If there were a way to (not to cater to the least sensitive common denominator but instead to try to be as inclusive as possible) be as effective with the symbolism yet avoid symbols that evoke such a visceral response, it might be a better solution. Perhaps stenciling the names of some of the main characters of the drama or other textual decoration (as Carolyn mentioned, symbols are much more deeply rooted in our psyches) might be as effective as to keeping with the theme of the puzzle yet avoid the emotion that goes along with the swastika.

 

....

 

I can't believe I wrote so much... waiting for the TL;DR ;)

 

edit: spelling.... and some horrible grammar

Edited by mrbort
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Since the Ark was muggled by "Christy Rose" in the 1300s many of the ancient symbols have been used incorrectly in an misguided attempt to rebuild the Great Society. I guess that since the logbook hadn't been signed in 108 years or so, she felt the urge to remove all of the items from the master control room..which is how DeSoto arrived using all of the correct symbols that the Mayans were told 1500 years before to expect, but with the wrong spirit..

 

I'd say that Hitler did something very similar, and to use the symbol in context with Germany would just be asking for trouble..Symbols are only meant to send messages, and to use a large german swastica on the side of an ammo box sends a message which may blot out any others, however which way you try to present it.

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Think about it clearly.

A Swastika on a Military Issue Ammunition can. What fool would think of Indians at that point or the thousands of other years of Swastika use. It's a MILITARY item with a Swastika. How could one not connect that to a Nazi symbol at that point?

 

;)

 

When did I ever say it was going to be on an ammo can? I never mentioned what container it would be...as a matter of fact, I got it from a box-store craft section.

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Well, after doing some thinking and listening to your ideas and opinions, I did some tinkering and came up with this stencil. It incorporates the original design, yet omits the swastika. I replaced it with a geocaching logo I found on Google. What do you think?

 

mystencil1.jpg

Edited by Arthur & Trillian
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What do you think?

 

mystencil.jpg

 

Personally, I'd go with the top half (the eagle) as it looks suitably Germnanic and period-related.

 

I'd say its best to leave off the bottom part that replaces the swastica with the geocaching 'G'.

 

It looks like one of those awful/funny political statements that replaces a well-known historical 'symbol of evil' with a modern one to draw parallels between the two, like this;

 

3832293229_75e9ba9530_m.jpg

 

or (for balance and to avoid being poltical!) like this;

 

3833086500_d41abb30f3_m.jpg

 

Mike

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Am I missing something here? ;)

 

Winston Churchill's 'Sinews of Peace' address was about liberty, freedom and the 'special relationship'. It was made in 1946 after the Second World War (the Nazi's had been defeated). It has more to do with the cold war than Nazi's, in fact, in the speech Winston Churchill never once mentioned the term 'Nazi'. The fact that you are trying to change history offends me more.

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I won't be offended by the symbol, but many finders will. Even if you use the "Eagle-Gx" symbol, some cachers will be offended. I know some people who will do their best to be offended by anything, only to complain that they have been offended.

 

This summer I visited the WWII museum in Paris. One of the exhibits was a flag from that guy's car; and a wheel cap from the same car, with that symbol. And uniforms, and medals, and engraved pens, and other memorabilia, and I wasn't offended by them. I condemn the ideology, but I was happy that these exhibits survived and can be seen in a museum.

 

You can use an original cigar box from 65 years ago, and I'll think it's way cool. You could fill the box with items from that period, and it won't offend me the least. Those are just man-made objects. I won't burn in hell for touching it, and I won't burn in an extermination camp for not embracing the ideology behind the symbol.

I visited execution/mass murder places and torture chambers, and wasn't offended; those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

I visited churches, mosques and temples, and wasn't offended. I made donations in those places, not because I embrace all those ideologies, but to help with the maintenance, so future generations will be able to enjoy those places, too.

 

In the same museum I visited this summer, there was a photo with that guy near the Eiffel Tower. A young couple was by the exhibit when I arrived, and the lady said that the guy who took the photo should be shot! I'm very tolerant, but the words (and thought) of that lady offended me.

 

Regarding the cache, I will like to find such a container after a well designed adventure. Had I be the placer of that cache, I would place it in a difficulty 4 terrain, off the beaten path. Those who are able to solve the puzzle and tackle the terrain are less likely to be offended by a symbol.

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Yet, on this website, the mere mention of the word "Jesus" in a cache title is sufficient to trigger a complaint resulting in a forced title change. That cache was hidden in a lamp post; on the post, someone other than the cache owner had put up a religious flyer with an image of Jesus. The cache name was something like "May the Light of Jesus Shine on You."

 

That is a high standard for your swastika to meet. I'd suggest steering clear of such symbolism as it leads down a slippery slope.

 

Darn! My caching partner's name is Jesus. (Actually Jesús, but he doesn't use the accent mark.) Guess we can't put out the magnetic micro on the bench outside the bank, and call it Jesús Saves?

Oh, well.

 

As to the swastika, IMHO not a good idea.

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I don't think it would offend me but I doubt I'd want to be seen by a muggle holding a box with a swastika on it. Especially since I shave my head and have a European look about me. Let's face it, that symbol has been ruined for everyone along with the charming little square mustache and the name Adolf. It's probably wise to stay away from all three if you want to avoid raising peoples ire.

That's a good point. Maybe the original question should have been: "Would you mind being caught handling a container with a swastika on it?"

 

At any rate, looks like the OP is looking at some good alternatives. Good job thinking it through, and good discussion all.

 

It looks like one of those awful/funny political statements that replaces a well-known historical 'symbol of evil' with a modern one to draw parallels between the two, like this;

 

...Obama-as-Communist poster...

 

or (for balance and to avoid being poltical!) like this;

 

...Dems-as-fascists poster...

 

Mike

Er....an anti-Obama poster and an anti-Democrat poster balance?

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Well, after doing some thinking and listening to your ideas and opinions, I did some tinkering and came up with this stencil. It incorporates the original design, yet omits the swastika. I replaced it with a geocaching logo I found on Google. What do you think?

 

mystencil.jpg

 

I think that anything you do with the eagle will offend far fewer people than the swastika, especially since fewer people have the kind of instant recognition and associations with that symbol. In addition, the eagle gives more of a historical flavor since it is not currently being used in other contexts. Since you're in Missouri and not catering to a group of hyper-sensitive historians, my guess would be that this would pretty much solve the problem. So good job on thinking outside of the box.

 

Carolyn

 

P.S. I also think your cache sounds like fun.

Edited by Steve&GeoCarolyn
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Am I missing something here? ;)

 

Winston Churchill's 'Sinews of Peace' address was about liberty, freedom and the 'special relationship'. It was made in 1946 after the Second World War (the Nazi's had been defeated). It has more to do with the cold war than Nazi's, in fact, in the speech Winston Churchill never once mentioned the term 'Nazi'. The fact that you are trying to change history offends me more.

 

From the OP:

Basically, it's up to the cacher to decipher the clues to get to a container left for the ex-Nazis to enact their plan before they do

Unfortunately, Nazis didn't vanish in 1945.

Edited by Dinoprophet
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Am I missing something here? ;)

 

Winston Churchill's 'Sinews of Peace' address was about liberty, freedom and the 'special relationship'. It was made in 1946 after the Second World War (the Nazi's had been defeated). It has more to do with the cold war than Nazi's, in fact, in the speech Winston Churchill never once mentioned the term 'Nazi'. The fact that you are trying to change history offends me more.

 

Every hear of historical fiction? Take elements of real history, add some fictional elements, and there you go.

 

No one is trying to change history at all.

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My family owns baskets made by Pacific Northwest natives that date back to the late 1800s and some of them have this symbol. Would you be offended by seeing the symbol on those baskets?

 

For that matter, the swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years, but frankly, I think that is irrelevant to this conversation. The OP is expressly referring to using the Nazi swastika on a cache. The implications are certainly clear here.

I absolutely agree with you and your statement that it is the idea not the symbol. I take issue with the concept that the particular symbol represents evil and nothing else. I think that in the context of the OP it represents Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany existed. The theme of the cache doesn't seem to be one that celebrates the Nazi ideals. Given the theme I would not be offended in any way.

Agreed.

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I was going to make a sarcastic comment, but I will refrain. This has been a great thread to read. Lots of great posts and opinions.

 

I am a contractor working at a major micro-electronics plant and they have a culture that is unlike anywhere I have seen. Because of the international, multi cultural mix, the rule is not to treat others as you wish to be treated, but to treat them as they want to be treated. My behavior is deemed offensive if viewed as offensive by anyone. Talk about walking on eggshells for a big, shaved head redneck. ( I can call myself that). Just because I wouldn't be offended doesn't make it OK.

 

I used to disagree with that culture, but the more I work and interact with people, the better I see how that creates a stress free environment. Not to say the company doesn't build "tension" into the system, but that's another issue.

 

If the behavior/object could be offensive to anyone, why go through the risk?

 

Let me put this another way: If this was to be found by a non cacher and they reported it, making the front page of the Newspaper or the local nightly news, how do you think others would look upon a swastica being found on anything? An explination to a reporter will not always come out favorable...

 

It has nothing to do with intent and nothing to do with historical significance. Headlines that grab ratings and readers are what count.

 

Is that a risk you would be willing to take?

 

If it were me [grain of salt] I would look at the eagle with the G [/grain of salt] Just my opinion though.

 

Cool concepts sometimes look better on paper than in reality.

 

Good Luck.

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Well, after doing some thinking and listening to your ideas and opinions, I did some tinkering and came up with this stencil. It incorporates the original design, yet omits the swastika. I replaced it with a geocaching logo I found on Google. What do you think?

 

mystencil.jpg

I like it.

 

Likewise. I think its better than the swastika in many ways. Not sure if this is accurate, but it is my uneducated perception that this represents the SS and the officers more than the swastika would, anyway. To me, the swastika brings up images of the soldiers more than the elite. The geocaching symbol is a nice touch.

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I like the redesigned stencil.

 

The original would not have bothered me in the context you had proposed in the least but I would not have used it due to even the small remote possibility that a muggle would find it and see it (even locked up) and then associate it with Geocaching.

 

The redesigned one is just vague enough to work.

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It is not being ultra sensitive, it is being practical. Even sites such as Ebay will not let anything be sold that bears the swastika on it.

 

Sensitive is not a word anyone who knows me would associate with me, but as someone of German descent living in America, I am deeply offended by the symbol for this type of use. In the context of TV and movies that have been mentioned here,i t was used to represent wrong or evil and in that perspective still made some uneasy.

 

Many symbols had uses before they were adopted for another purpose, however once the association is made, especially as strong as this one was, you can argue all day long that the symbol is neutral but find one person that can say in all truth that they think of Hindu's, Jainism, Slavic's or anyone else who previously used the symbol when they see it. Few symbols evoke such strong emotions.

 

Prove me wrong. Someone convert their avatar to the Swastika and see what happens.

 

I think it was mentioned earlier, if you have to ask, it probably is not a good idea.

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Personally, I'd go with the top half (the eagle) as it looks suitably Germnanic and period-related.

 

I'd say its best to leave off the bottom part that replaces the swastica with the geocaching 'G'.

 

It looks like one of those awful/funny political statements that replaces a well-known historical 'symbol of evil' with a modern one to draw parallels between the two, like this;

 

snip

 

or (for balance and to avoid being poltical!) like this;

 

snip

 

Mike

 

Not to difficult to figure out your political leanings if you thought that was "balanced".

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It looks like one of those awful/funny political statements that replaces a well-known historical 'symbol of evil' with a modern one to draw parallels between the two, like this;

 

[image deleted]

or (for balance and to avoid being poltical!) like this;

 

[image deleted]

 

Mike

 

Oh yeah.. those are just hilarious! Thanks for the fair and balanced politics. Very "FOXy" of you.

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I personally wouldn't be offended; however...

 

I can see where somebody might be and if a muggle happened upon it in the woods, it would probably have an increased risk of being vandalized or somehow incorrectly linking geocaching with nazi stuff.

 

What about just putting an iron cross on it?

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Would I be personally offended by a swastika as you have described? No.

 

Do I think it's a good idea? Not really.

 

I think the alternate stencil is better. Still not convinced that it's a great idea- to use that symbol or any symbol that could be associated with such a divisive issue.

 

I think you'd be better off turning it into an "Evil League of Evil" plot, but that's just my opinion.

 

Here's a crazy thought- check with your reviewer before you get too involved with the puzzle.

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I really think you should change your mind about how the puzzle cache works. Having several puzzles to solve, and Final Solution leading you to the Nazi cache is just wrong.

 

Why?

 

Yeah... why? :rolleyes:

I got it.

slapping forehead!! OK, so do I now.

 

Yeah...I just got it myself. Well, it's a good thing 99.99999% of people don't read into things...things that aren't there...as much as this person does.

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