+ArtieD Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Hello, all... I have a question...I am currently creating a puzzle cache. The basic premise is that some disgruntled ex-Nazis plan to kidnap Sir Winston Churchill after delivering his "Sinews of Peace" (Iron Curtain) speech in Fulton, MO. Basically, it's up to the cacher to decipher the clues to get to a container left for the ex-Nazis to enact their plan before they do. The container is the final cache location. To keep with the theme, I found an eagle/swastika stencil kind of like the one used in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and was planning on using it to decorate the final cache container. The final container will be inside another container that will be locked, so it will not be seen by anyone that is not meant to find it. So I ask...would such markings be offensive to you if you were to find the cache? Quote
+mrbort Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Hello, all... I have a question...I am currently creating a puzzle cache. The basic premise is that some disgruntled ex-Nazis plan to kidnap Sir Winston Churchill after delivering his "Sinews of Peace" (Iron Curtain) speech in Fulton, MO. Basically, it's up to the cacher to decipher the clues to get to a container left for the ex-Nazis to enact their plan before they do. The container is the final cache location. To keep with the theme, I found an eagle/swastika stencil kind of like the one used in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and was planning on using it to decorate the final cache container. The final container will be inside another container that will be locked, so it will not be seen by anyone that is not meant to find it. So I ask...would such markings be offensive to you if you were to find the cache? If I were searching for the cache with the whole puzzle in mind, I would not be offended as it's keeping with the theme of the puzzle. What I think would be much more worrisome would be those who find the cache without the puzzle; finding an ammo can with a swastika in the woods would be disquieting at the least. As a puzzle, great! I like the role playing style you're attempting to produce. Just make sure it would be placed in a place where non cachers would be extremely unlikely to find it... my take on it at least Good luck with what seems like a neat cache! Quote
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Hello, all... I have a question...I am currently creating a puzzle cache. The basic premise is that some disgruntled ex-Nazis plan to kidnap Sir Winston Churchill after delivering his "Sinews of Peace" (Iron Curtain) speech in Fulton, MO. Basically, it's up to the cacher to decipher the clues to get to a container left for the ex-Nazis to enact their plan before they do. The container is the final cache location. To keep with the theme, I found an eagle/swastika stencil kind of like the one used in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and was planning on using it to decorate the final cache container. The final container will be inside another container that will be locked, so it will not be seen by anyone that is not meant to find it. So I ask...would such markings be offensive to you if you were to find the cache? An insignia of any kind would not be offensive to me. The attitude (real or percieved) that accompanies the use of that insignia would be the basis for any offense that I might take. I was in no way offended by Raiders of the Lost Ark, but I am offended by the neo-nazi movement. Both make use of the swastika. Quote
+BlueDeuce Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 My wife didn't like that I have a copy of the "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" on my book shelf which displays a swastika on the binding It was for my studies. Even though she understood my intent she still didn't want to see it. Just responding to your question. Quote
+WRASTRO Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 What we typically refer to as a swastika is a symbol that was widely used long before Adolph and his boys came along. They simply co-opted it for their own purposes. I certainly would not be offended by your use of symbols that were in keeping with the theme of the cache. Of course someone will cry that your cache has an agenda and should be disallowed. Quote
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 My wife didn't like that I have a copy of the "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" on my book shelf which displays a swastika on the binding That is a valid point. There are many people (not to disparage your wife, by any means!) that do not or can not separate the symbol from the ideology behind the symbol. Put a pentagram on the cache and it will become Satanic. Put a cross on it and it will become Christian. A Star of David makes it Jewish. Put a swastika on it and it will become Nazi. Of course, its really just an ammo can, but the perception is very real to those that see the symbol as reality. Quote
+ArtieD Posted August 18, 2009 Author Posted August 18, 2009 If I were searching for the cache with the whole puzzle in mind, I would not be offended as it's keeping with the theme of the puzzle. What I think would be much more worrisome would be those who find the cache without the puzzle; finding an ammo can with a swastika in the woods would be disquieting at the least. That's why I would place the container inside another container that is padlocked...to keep possible random eyes from seeing it. Quote
+mrbort Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 If I were searching for the cache with the whole puzzle in mind, I would not be offended as it's keeping with the theme of the puzzle. What I think would be much more worrisome would be those who find the cache without the puzzle; finding an ammo can with a swastika in the woods would be disquieting at the least. That's why I would place the container inside another container that is padlocked...to keep possible random eyes from seeing it. Apologies. Though I try to read every post to which I reply carefully, I clearly did not do so here! I totally missed that bit In that case, sounds like a fun cache Quote
+BlueDeuce Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 My wife didn't like that I have a copy of the "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" on my book shelf which displays a swastika on the binding That is a valid point. There are many people (not to disparage your wife, by any means!) that do not or can not separate the symbol from the ideology behind the symbol. Put a pentagram on the cache and it will become Satanic. Put a cross on it and it will become Christian. A Star of David makes it Jewish. Put a swastika on it and it will become Nazi. Of course, its really just an ammo can, but the perception is very real to those that see the symbol as reality. Exactly. So will the cache pass the test? I'm fine with it so like with any other cache check with the reviewer. Quote
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 If you will just take a few moments to read the first few threads on this forum, it will quickly become clear to you that geocachers are very rarely offended (cough!) by (cough!) anything. Seriously, though... you will be walking a very fine line... work hard on your presentation and I think you will be OK. Quote
+bittsen Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 I think a Swastika laden cache would make an excellent target, or subject of impact tests, or even a subject for a distance toss attempt. Not that "I" would ever do something like that. BTW, regardless of why the swastika is on the cache. Quote
+swizzle Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Unfortunately the Swastika has a bad wrap because of Hitler. It was originally used by native americans as a symbol of good luck and often painted or stained onto their teepees. The design was actually used on a lot of household good in the U.S. before the reign of Hitler. But now the good luck symbol is mainly known as the symbol of pain for millions of Jewish people. Sorry just a fact. Swizzle Quote
Dinoprophet Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 To me? No. I would be surprised if it never got a complaint EXCEPT THAT I assume the story will be so woven into the rest of the cache that its intent will be very clear by the time it's found. It sounds very cool, and I hope you go forward with it with no trouble. Quote
+Wadcutter Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Ask some people from Skokie, IL. They will have a different take on it than the ones you got replies from so far. Quote
+briansnat Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 It wouldn't bother me. Not that I think it's a good idea either. Quote
+BlueDeuce Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 I would be surprised if it never got a complaint EXCEPT THAT I assume the story will be so woven into the rest of the cache that its intent will be very clear by the time it's found. Provided that it's in English. Zing! Sorry couldn't resist. Quote
+Lil Devil Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) I always enjoy it when the final cache for a puzzle is in theme with the puzzle. Solving a nice puzzle, then finding a cache under a lamp skirt is disappointing. One of my favorites was a puzzle that had you doing something with multi-colored stripes. The final location brought me to an abandoned piece of roadway where the city crews had apparently been practicing with the road striping machine. Lots of colored stripes all over the place. It looked a lot like the puzzle page I would have no problem with a swastika on a final cache after solving the puzzle you describe. I do like how it's contained in another container so as not to alarm any muggles that happen to find it. It wouldn't sound good on the 6 o'clock news Edit cuase I cent speel Edited August 18, 2009 by Lil Devil Quote
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Ask some people from Skokie, IL. They will have a different take on it than the ones you got replies from so far. What exactly are you saying about Skokie, IL? Just ribbing you, of course. But I don't recall hearing any chorus of shouts from Skokie or anywhere else regarding Raiders of the Lost Ark (or, to throw you a nasty curve, "Raiders of the Lost Arc" ) . Its all about context. Quote
Mr.Yuck Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Unfortunately the Swastika has a bad wrap because of Hitler. It was originally used by native americans as a symbol of good luck and often painted or stained onto their teepees. The design was actually used on a lot of household good in the U.S. before the reign of Hitler. But now the good luck symbol is mainly known as the symbol of pain for millions of Jewish people. Sorry just a fact. Swizzle Absolutely. I once saw a traveling exhibit at the Ft. Sill, Oklahoma museum in the early 90's titled "The American Swastika" or something like that. Me, I wouldn't be offended by your use of it, but I have a funny feeling it would become an issue. Quote
+tzipora Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 I'm Jewish. I would probably have at least a tinge of offense, even if it's in keeping with the theme. I know you're putting it inside a locked box and all that, but if somehow, somebody accidentally didn't put the cache back and I came across it in the woods, I'd be very offended. Quote
+doingitoldschool Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 To answer your question, yes I would be offended. That symbol, no matter how innocuous it's use, represents too much evil to ignore. Is there more to this issue - of course. You asked, and I'm just letting you how I, one voice amongst many, feel. Quote
Dinoprophet Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) I think this is pertinent to ask: what kind of mood are you going for in your story design? Dead serious WWII drama? Hogan's Heroes hijinks? Totally over-the-top Castle Wolfenstein surrealism? It will affect how the Nazi aspect of the cache is taken. Also pertinent, I think, is a quote I saw from Speilberg in an article: A lot changed for me after [1993's] Schindler's List, especially when I began working with Holocaust survivors, and being able to collect their testimonies. But I never look back with shame at Raiders or Last Crusade. We gave the Nazis the same spin that, I think, in a way, Charlie Chaplin was able to give them in The Great Dictator. There was always a bit of, We're not going to take them that seriously. It's just something I wouldn't choose to do right now. I would choose not to make them Saturday-matinee villains. Edited August 18, 2009 by Dinoprophet Quote
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 To answer your question, yes I would be offended. That symbol, no matter how innocuous it's use, represents too much evil to ignore. Is there more to this issue - of course. You asked, and I'm just letting you how I, one voice amongst many, feel. The symbol is not evil. A symbol is incapable of evil. A symbol can only represent. What that symbol represents to you is evil and I do not for one second doubt that. But it is a matter of confusing the messenger with the message. Nazism was one of the most evil, twisted places the human mind has gone in written history. But the swastika is not Nazism. That said... your feelings are your feelings, and I can't really argue to change them, so thanks for letting them be known. Quote
+ArtieD Posted August 18, 2009 Author Posted August 18, 2009 I think this is pertinent to ask: what kind of mood are you going for in your story design? Dead serious WWII drama? Hogan's Heroes hijinks? Totally over-the-top Castle Wolfenstein surrealism? It will affect how the Nazi aspect of the cache is taken. I think it'd be more on the serious side...you intercept communications...decrypt them to go to locations to find snippet messages in German...finally translate them to find the final location. Quote
+Steve&GeoCarolyn Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) Offended is too strong a word, but it would make me uncomfortable. We had a similar challenge when we put together a murder mystery party set in Algiers during WWII and we ended up avoiding symbols that would evoke a strong bad reaction. We also reduced the level of horror by side-stepping the issue of what the refugee characters were running from. We wanted to make sure that people would enjoy the evening. We wanted them to be caught up by the story, but not triggered into personal bad associations or feelings of horror. The problem with symbols like the swastika or the burning cross is that they are not yet symbols of our barbaric past. They are symbols with resonance today and are used by modern groups whose goals and beliefs I find disagreeable. As to those who complain that the symbol was appropriated from Hindu symbolism and misused, that is true. But we must deal with the meaning of symbols as they are used in our culture and in the context we have. I really doubt that the OP wants to signal Hinduism with his use of the swastika, nor do I think that most people finding his cache would be making that association. So I think the origin of the symbol (whether India or Persia or Ancient Greece) is besides the point. If it were me, I would find another way. Symbols are powerful and sometimes they can overpower the story you are trying to tell with your puzzle cache. Carolyn Edited August 18, 2009 by Steve&GeoCarolyn Quote
modernman Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Have you considered using the iron cross, or just leave out any symbol? Quote
aniyn Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 I can't say I love the idea :/ Maybe just paint the can red with some black and white stripes? Quote
+ArtieD Posted August 18, 2009 Author Posted August 18, 2009 Have you considered using the iron cross, or just leave out any symbol? My wife suggested using the eagle clutching the wreath...without the swastika in the middle. I suppose that would be better if that were used. Quote
+doingitoldschool Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 To answer your question, yes I would be offended. That symbol, no matter how innocuous it's use, represents too much evil to ignore. Is there more to this issue - of course. You asked, and I'm just letting you how I, one voice amongst many, feel. The symbol is not evil. A symbol is incapable of evil. A symbol can only represent. What that symbol represents to you is evil and I do not for one second doubt that. But it is a matter of confusing the messenger with the message. Nazism was one of the most evil, twisted places the human mind has gone in written history. But the swastika is not Nazism. That said... your feelings are your feelings, and I can't really argue to change them, so thanks for letting them be known. Please understand that I did not say the symbol was evil; I said it represents evil, and I'm not in the least bit confused about this. I also think that the potential to evoke very strong negative emotions with this particular symbol far outweighs any possible good that could come out of it's use. Quote
+Arrow42 Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 To answer your question, yes I would be offended. That symbol, no matter how innocuous it's use, represents too much evil to ignore. Is there more to this issue - of course. You asked, and I'm just letting you how I, one voice amongst many, feel. Have you thought about choosing to not be offended by it? Quote
+Wadcutter Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Just ribbing you, of course. But I don't recall hearing any chorus of shouts from Skokie or anywhere else regarding Raiders of the Lost Ark (or, to throw you a nasty curve, "Raiders of the Lost Arc" ) . Its all about context. You may not recall it but I sure do. There was a lot of concern at the time by groups in Skokie when the movie came out. Don't know if you've ever been to Skokie but they don't take such symbols lightly. What about the "Stars and Bars"? Or a hangman's noose? Do you think some people would be offended? If you don't know the answer to that one - They will. To the OP: When in doubt - don't. You already know the answer or you wouldn't have asked the question. Quote
+BlueDeuce Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Symbols are powerful and sometimes they can overpower the story you are trying to tell with your puzzle cache. Carolyn Yes, and I'm glad the OP asked if it would be an issue for us. It's difficult to determine without seeing the final product. That's the reviewer's job, isn't it? Quote
Dinoprophet Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Have you considered using the iron cross, or just leave out any symbol? My wife suggested using the eagle clutching the wreath...without the swastika in the middle. I suppose that would be better if that were used. That might be the way to go. You almost wouldn't notice, but the LEGO Indiana Jones computer games and toys make no reference to Nazis. They've all become generic grey and brown-uniformed bad guys. Quote
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 I guess all that I can add to this topic at this time is that I sure hope that some evil ideology of the future adopts "TFTC" as their symbolism. Quote
+doingitoldschool Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 To answer your question, yes I would be offended. That symbol, no matter how innocuous it's use, represents too much evil to ignore. Is there more to this issue - of course. You asked, and I'm just letting you how I, one voice amongst many, feel. Have you thought about choosing to not be offended by it? Not a bit - the OP wanted to know if people would be offended, and I said I would. Why would I try to think otherwise? Quote
+WRASTRO Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 To answer your question, yes I would be offended. That symbol, no matter how innocuous it's use, represents too much evil to ignore. Is there more to this issue - of course. You asked, and I'm just letting you how I, one voice amongst many, feel. Have you thought about choosing to not be offended by it? Not a bit - the OP wanted to know if people would be offended, and I said I would. Why would I try to think otherwise? My family owns baskets made by Pacific Northwest natives that date back to the late 1800s and some of them have this symbol. Would you be offended by seeing the symbol on those baskets? Quote
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 The symbol is not evil. A symbol is incapable of evil. A symbol can only represent. What that symbol represents to you is evil and I do not for one second doubt that. But it is a matter of confusing the messenger with the message. Nazism was one of the most evil, twisted places the human mind has gone in written history. But the swastika is not Nazism. Please understand that I did not say the symbol was evil; I said it represents evil, and I'm not in the least bit confused about this. I also think that the potential to evoke very strong negative emotions with this particular symbol far outweighs any possible good that could come out of it's use. Agreed. You most certainly did not say that. Sorry if it seemed I was putting words in your mouth. Obviously (I hope!) I'm only trying to point out that we need to attack the ideas, and not the pictures of the ideas. Is there one person here that can seriously say that they were offended by the use of Nazi symbolism in Raiders? Quote
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 My family owns baskets made by Pacific Northwest natives that date back to the late 1800s and some of them have this symbol. Would you be offended by seeing the symbol on those baskets? For that matter, the swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years, but frankly, I think that is irrelevant to this conversation. The OP is expressly referring to using the Nazi swastika on a cache. The implications are certainly clear here. Quote
+doingitoldschool Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) To answer your question, yes I would be offended. That symbol, no matter how innocuous it's use, represents too much evil to ignore. Is there more to this issue - of course. You asked, and I'm just letting you how I, one voice amongst many, feel. Have you thought about choosing to not be offended by it? Not a bit - the OP wanted to know if people would be offended, and I said I would. Why would I try to think otherwise? My family owns baskets made by Pacific Northwest natives that date back to the late 1800s and some of them have this symbol. Would you be offended by seeing the symbol on those baskets? I don't think that has anything to do with the OP's question, unless one of your baskets is to be his cache container. As for the OP, I would venture to say that the heat generated by this simple discussion may be indicative of the reception your container, with a swastika on it, may receive. Edited August 18, 2009 by doingitoldschool Quote
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Have you thought about choosing to not be offended by it? Not a bit - the OP wanted to know if people would be offended, and I said I would. Why would I try to think otherwise? Because some have pointed out that the symbol is not the problem? Because we all have the power to reconsider our prejudices in light of new information? Because we have become enlightened? I'm not saying that any of these are true for you, but you ask why... there are three potential reasons, should you chose to use them. Quote
+BlueDeuce Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Am I the only person who thinks a local reviewer should be involved? (Sigh) Well, I'm going to bed. Night all. Quote
+WRASTRO Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 My family owns baskets made by Pacific Northwest natives that date back to the late 1800s and some of them have this symbol. Would you be offended by seeing the symbol on those baskets? For that matter, the swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years, but frankly, I think that is irrelevant to this conversation. The OP is expressly referring to using the Nazi swastika on a cache. The implications are certainly clear here. I absolutely agree with you and your statement that it is the idea not the symbol. I take issue with the concept that the particular symbol represents evil and nothing else. I think that in the context of the OP it represents Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany existed. The theme of the cache doesn't seem to be one that celebrates the Nazi ideals. Given the theme I would not be offended in any way. Quote
+TheMadScotsman Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) I don't think it would offend me but I doubt I'd want to be seen by a muggle holding a box with a swastika on it. Especially since I shave my head and have a European look about me. Let's face it, that symbol has been ruined for everyone along with the charming little square mustache and the name Adolf. It's probably wise to stay away from all three if you want to avoid raising peoples ire. Edited August 18, 2009 by TheMadScotsman Quote
+Steve&GeoCarolyn Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) Because some have pointed out that the symbol is not the problem? Because we all have the power to reconsider our prejudices in light of new information? Because we have become enlightened? I'm not saying that any of these are true for you, but you ask why... there are three potential reasons, should you chose to use them. Even if everyone reading this becomes enlightened today and realizes that the symbol is not the reality, the map is not the territory, and words are just pretty puffs of air, it doesn't address what happens when someone opens this cache in the field. That is the real question here. Is this symbol too redolent with malice to be used? Or has enough time moved on that no one would be offended? My guess is that a cache in Missouri would find few people offended but that there would still be a small number who would be. The same cache in New Jersey or Illinois would have a different audience and probably more negative reactions. Putting the cache in Germany would probably be extremely provocative. Know your audience and be careful with your words and symbols. And yes, a local reviewer would be an excellent resource for checking on these things. Carolyn Edited August 18, 2009 by Steve&GeoCarolyn Quote
+TheMadScotsman Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Because some have pointed out that the symbol is not the problem? Because we all have the power to reconsider our prejudices in light of new information? Because we have become enlightened? I'm not saying that any of these are true for you, but you ask why... there are three potential reasons, should you chose to use them. Even if everyone reading this becomes enlightened today and realizes that the symbol is not the reality, the map is not the territory, and words are just pretty puffs of air, it doesn't address what happens when someone opens this cache in the field. That is the real question here. Is this symbol too redolent with malice to be used? Or has enough time moved on that no one would be offended? My guess is that a cache in Missouri would find few people offended but that there would still be a small number who would be. The same cache in New Jersey or Illinois would have a different audience and probably more negative reactions. Putting the cache in Germany would probably be extremely provocative. Know your audience and be careful with your words and symbols. And yes, a local reviewer would be an excellent resource for checking on these things. Carolyn Putting the cache in Germany would be illegal as the use of the Swastika has been banned in that country. Quote
+Steve&GeoCarolyn Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Putting the cache in Germany would be illegal as the use of the Swastika has been banned in that country. Thus, extremely provocative. Carolyn Quote
aniyn Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Have you thought about choosing to not be offended by it? I'm sorry, but are you trolling? Quote
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Am I the only person who thinks a local reviewer should be involved? (Sigh) Well, I'm going to bed. Night all. Yes. Sweet dreams. Quote
+The Leprechauns Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Symbols are powerful and sometimes they can overpower the story you are trying to tell with your puzzle cache. Carolyn Yes, and I'm glad the OP asked if it would be an issue for us. It's difficult to determine without seeing the final product. That's the reviewer's job, isn't it? Assume that the cache description has just a slight hint of an agenda. It's 90 percent mystery/puzzle and fascinating back story, and 10 percent "triumph of good over evil" or whatever other social/political agenda seeps through the words. Next assume a cache container with a big cross on it, and a cache puzzle that's 90 percent mystery/puzzle and fascinating back story based upon events described in the New Testament, and 10 percent "Christianity" or whatever other religious agenda seeps through the words. If the reviewer publishes the cache with the swastika then he is seemingly compelled to publish the one with the cross, or else he's being inconsistent and favoring one theme over another. Yet, on this website, the mere mention of the word "Jesus" in a cache title is sufficient to trigger a complaint resulting in a forced title change. That cache was hidden in a lamp post; on the post, someone other than the cache owner had put up a religious flyer with an image of Jesus. The cache name was something like "May the Light of Jesus Shine on You." That is a high standard for your swastika to meet. I'd suggest steering clear of such symbolism as it leads down a slippery slope. Quote
+bflentje Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Context is everything. The ultra sensitive need not apply. Quote
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