Are lyrics protected by copyright?

[+bevema]

If I plan to make a series of i.e. Bob Dylan caches, and each if them is represented by a different song,

and I put the whole lyrics of this song as cache description onto Groundspeak.

 

Am I gonna have trouble?

Is Groundspeak gonna have to?

[+9Key]

There's a cache team here in Dallas that has hidden well over 400 caches, each of them titled after songs with the lyrics included in the cache description and I've never heard of them having any issues. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

[+cache_test_dummies]

I think you'll be ok.

 

Look out kid, they keep it all hid

Better jump down a manhole, light yourself a candle

Don't wear sandals, try to avoid the scandals

Don't wanna be a bum, you better chew gum

The pump don't work 'cause the vandals took the handle

 

- Bob Dylan: Subterranean Homesick Blues

 

I knew a man, his brain was so small,

He couldn't think of nothing at all.

He's not the same as you and me.

He doesn't dig poetry. He's so unhip that

When you say Dylan, he thinks you're talking about Dylan Thomas,

Whoever he was.

The man ain't got no culture,

But it's alright, ma,

Everybody must get stoned.

 

- Simon and Garfunkel: A Simple Desultory Philippic

[+Too Tall John]

Yes, lyrics are copyrighted.

[+LewisClan77]

Am I gonna have trouble?

Is Groundspeak gonna have to?

 

I think if you were trying to make a profit then you would have trouble, but just using the lyrics for enjoyment purposes I don't think it would be a problem.

[+Michael]

Yes lyrics are copyrighted and may cause your cache to not be listed. Even the fact that there are others out there that got them published is not a guarantee that yours will be. Titles of books, Movies, Songs, etc are not copyrighted but the lyrics are.

[+cache_test_dummies]

I think you'll be ok.

Or maybe not.

[+Gator Man]

Oh, you're a musician? Do you write the lyrics or the words?

[+Clothahump]

Lyrics are copyrighted. You may quote a representative sample of a song, such as the first verse, as long as you give attribution to the author. It's when you put up the whole kit and kaboodle that things can get ugly.

[+new_dharma]

Lyrics are copyrighted. You may quote a representative sample of a song, such as the first verse, as long as you give attribution to the author. It's when you put up the whole kit and kaboodle that things can get ugly.

+1

Just like writing a paper...if you are giving credit to the artist who WROTE the song, you should be ok (but i'm NOT a copyright lawyer)

[+nekom]

Lyrics are copyrighted. There is such a thing as fair use, but I'm not sure what constitutes that. There are tons of websites with song lyrics out there, but I couldn't tell you whether they are paying royalties, or whether or not they are breaking any laws. After all, just because somebody is doing something doesn't necessarily mean it's legal.

[+Renegade Knight]

Lyrics are copyrighted. There is such a thing as fair use, but I'm not sure what constitutes that. There are tons of websites with song lyrics out there, but I couldn't tell you whether they are paying royalties, or whether or not they are breaking any laws. After all, just because somebody is doing something doesn't necessarily mean it's legal.

There are grumblings that companies are going to go after the lyrics sites...one of these days when they get around to it. Meanwhile the only way to look up lyrics are the sites.

 

The issue at hand is the money they make from Advertising revenue.

 

I suspect a cache page is closer to fair use than not.

 

Lastly the OP should know that every post each of us has made in this forum is also copyrighted by the person posting. It's automatic. You are not breaking the copyright if you quote a post to respond to it. That's fair use.

[+dkwolf]

Lyrics are copyrighted. There is such a thing as fair use, but I'm not sure what constitutes that. There are tons of websites with song lyrics out there, but I couldn't tell you whether they are paying royalties, or whether or not they are breaking any laws. After all, just because somebody is doing something doesn't necessarily mean it's legal.

There are grumblings that companies are going to go after the lyrics sites...one of these days when they get around to it. Meanwhile the only way to look up lyrics are the sites.

 

The issue at hand is the money they make from Advertising revenue.

 

I suspect a cache page is closer to fair use than not.

 

Lastly the OP should know that every post each of us has made in this forum is also copyrighted by the person posting. It's automatic. You are not breaking the copyright if you quote a post to respond to it. That's fair use.

They have gone after them in the past; one that my then-girlfriend and I used extensively in college to send lyrics of songs to each other got shut down. But that was back in 1998, before they started really going after the mp3 services.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Lyrics are copyrighted. There is such a thing as fair use, but I'm not sure what constitutes that. There are tons of websites with song lyrics out there, but I couldn't tell you whether they are paying royalties, or whether or not they are breaking any laws. After all, just because somebody is doing something doesn't necessarily mean it's legal.

There are grumblings that companies are going to go after the lyrics sites...one of these days when they get around to it. Meanwhile the only way to look up lyrics are the sites.

 

The issue at hand is the money they make from Advertising revenue.

 

I suspect a cache page is closer to fair use than not.

 

Lastly the OP should know that every post each of us has made in this forum is also copyrighted by the person posting. It's automatic. You are not breaking the copyright if you quote a post to respond to it. That's fair use.

But if you "mined" the data and copied it in a book, you would probably be liable. But as i understand it, you cannot ENFORCE the copyright until you register it. And I believe it also has to have the © symbol somewhere in the text or the word "copyright" and the year of the writing in order to enforce it.

 

But I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, therefore i am not allowed to have an opinion on legal matters.

[+Allen_L]

I am not a lawyer either but I have read 10 Big Myths about copyright explained.

[+Prime Suspect]

There are grumblings that companies are going to go after the lyrics sites...one of these days when they get around to it.

You mean like this?

[+bevema]

Lyrics are copyrighted. There is such a thing as fair use, but I'm not sure what constitutes that. There are tons of websites with song lyrics out there, but I couldn't tell you whether they are paying royalties, or whether or not they are breaking any laws. After all, just because somebody is doing something doesn't necessarily mean it's legal.

There are grumblings that companies are going to go after the lyrics sites...one of these days when they get around to it. Meanwhile the only way to look up lyrics are the sites.

 

The issue at hand is the money they make from Advertising revenue.

 

I suspect a cache page is closer to fair use than not.

 

I got the impression that a lot of lyrics servers have already been shut down or been closed to member-only access. It seems like earlier a raid has been run by a license holding company:

Rapidshare sues rights holders

 

and in German:

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/77079

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/19/19852/1.html

http://www.lehrer-online.de/dyn/bin/469166..._www-seiten.pdf

 

And the other articles found on the website of GEMA

press releases speak the same language

 

GEMA stands for:

The economic association

 

GEMA

Gesellschaft für musikalische Aufführungs- und mechanische Vervielfältigungsrechte

(Society for musical performing and mechanical reproduction rights)

 

has its registered office in Berlin.

 

Its legal status is based on governmental charter pursuant to Art. 22 BGB (German Civil Code).

Edited September 15, 2007 by Keystone

[+Trucker Lee]

Lyrics are copywrited, but also out in the public domain. Many artists consider it wonderful if you sing along, just don't compete with them for the sales.

 

You can quote them, sing them, print them, you just can't use them for profit without permission.

[+x_Marks_the_spot]

The problem with lyrics websites is they aren't infringing on the artists' copyrights, but rather on the distributors right to sell books with those lyrics in them.

 

As far as using lyrics for caches, this item suggests it would be considered Fair Use.

[+Prime Suspect]

The problem with lyrics websites is they aren't infringing on the artists' copyrights, but rather on the distributors right to sell books with those lyrics in them.

 

As far as using lyrics for caches, this item suggests it would be considered Fair Use.

And this article suggests that quoting any more than a few lines of a song's lyric is outside the bounds of Fair Use (with a few exceptions, such as classroom instruction).

Edited September 16, 2007 by Prime Suspect

[+Confucius' Cat]

The problem with lyrics websites is they aren't infringing on the artists' copyrights, but rather on the distributors right to sell books with those lyrics in them.

 

As far as using lyrics for caches, this item suggests it would be considered Fair Use.

Whoda thunk it! Get the question answered by the gubbament office that handles it.

 

Dang you just took all the fun out of the thread.

 

I found this very informative. Thanks for the link.

[+Renegade Knight]

... as i understand it, you cannot ENFORCE the copyright until you register it. ...

 

What you understand used to be true.

 

That all changed with the DMCA:

http://www.answers.com/topic/dmca?cat=biz-fin

The copyright is automatic.

 

I've been on the receiving end of a take down notice from MicroSoft.

Microsoft did not have to prove they held the copyright. It was assumed that because they said I was not in compliance, I was in the wrong.

When I asked Microsoft to cite exactly what part of the copyright they felt I had violated did not give me a specific answer. They gave me a link to a broad based description that upon review, did not fit the case.

There was no appeal, nobody at MicroSoft who was willing to take the time to review the reality of a specific case. All I ever got was someone trained to answer in generalities but not actually truly communicate.

 

In the end reality is that some big guns just get their way.

[AZcachemeister]

So you can name the title of the tune, include a few key phrases, we know what song you are referring to (and it is stuck in our heads for the rest of the day!), and nobody gets hurt.

[+AlmondEyes]

I hope we don't get in trouble. I have a cached named after a song a friend LOVED who passed away. I put the cache in a park where his wedding reception was and, 8 months later, his funeral reception was. I included all the lyrics in the cache description. I'll find out who wrote the lyrics and add that to the cache description.

Edited September 17, 2007 by AlmondEyes

[+Driver Carries Cache]

Lyrics are copyrighted. There is such a thing as fair use, but I'm not sure what constitutes that. There are tons of websites with song lyrics out there, but I couldn't tell you whether they are paying royalties, or whether or not they are breaking any laws. After all, just because somebody is doing something doesn't necessarily mean it's legal.

There are grumblings that companies are going to go after the lyrics sites...one of these days when they get around to it. Meanwhile the only way to look up lyrics are the sites.

 

The issue at hand is the money they make from Advertising revenue.

 

I suspect a cache page is closer to fair use than not.

 

Lastly the OP should know that every post each of us has made in this forum is also copyrighted by the person posting. It's automatic. You are not breaking the copyright if you quote a post to respond to it. That's fair use.

But if you "mined" the data and copied it in a book, you would probably be liable. But as i understand it, you cannot ENFORCE the copyright until you register it. And I believe it also has to have the © symbol somewhere in the text or the word "copyright" and the year of the writing in order to enforce it.

 

But I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, therefore i am not allowed to have an opinion on legal matters.

 

As someone who worked in professional photography I can tell you that isn't true. When you create something, you are granted a certain degree of protection by the act of creation. If you'd like to strengthen that copyright, you can register it, but non-registered items without the symbol still have a degree of protection.

 

DCC

[+Allen_L]

When you create something, you are granted a certain degree of protection by the act of creation. If you'd like to strengthen that copyright, you can register it, but non-registered items without the symbol still have a degree of protection.

Which is described in Myth 1 on 10 Big Myths about copyright explained.

[+Prime Suspect]

I hope we don't get in trouble. I have a cached named after a song a friend LOVED who passed away. I put the cache in a park where his wedding reception was and, 8 months later, his funeral reception was. I included all the lyrics in the cache description. I'll find out who wrote the lyrics and add that to the cache description.

All that will accomplish is that you'll know beforehand who it is that might be suing you. Adding the author's name doesn't mitigate copyright infringement. It just takes the additional charge of plagiarism off the table.

[+Confucius' Cat]

... as i understand it, you cannot ENFORCE the copyright until you register it. ...

 

What you understand used to be true.

 

That all changed with the DMCA:

http://www.answers.com/topic/dmca?cat=biz-fin

The copyright is automatic.

 

I've been on the receiving end of a take down notice from MicroSoft.

Microsoft did not have to prove they held the copyright. It was assumed that because they said I was not in compliance, I was in the wrong.

When I asked Microsoft to cite exactly what part of the copyright they felt I had violated did not give me a specific answer. They gave me a link to a broad based description that upon review, did not fit the case.

There was no appeal, nobody at MicroSoft who was willing to take the time to review the reality of a specific case. All I ever got was someone trained to answer in generalities but not actually truly communicate.

 

In the end reality is that some big guns just get their way.

Did anyone notice that someone posted a link to the U.S. Copyright office?

 

I think this source sorta trumps the others (at least in the U.S.A.)

 

I learned a lot from that site... copyright is automatic and effective on creation, registration is not needed prior to initiating action for enforcement, but it strengthens your position. "Fair use" is undefined but there are "guidelines" (big help that is- I guess it means one can argue fair use like we argue about cache listings and contents)

 

From your post, I learned that "enforcement" does not necessarily mean going to court... simple intimidation by parties with the well known ability to "breaka you legs" (figuratively speaking) makes court irrelevant and unnecessary.

 

Actually i have heard of several "big guns" losing court cases that one would think were "open and shut." But not too many "little people" are willing to take them on.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Actually i have heard of several "big guns" losing court cases that one would think were "open and shut." But not too many "little people" are willing to take them on.

It's a function of means, methods, time and money. Microsoft cost me about 60 bucks by taking that action. Plus they wasted my time. Since that time I have not lost a chance to comment on their behavor as a company. I have informed the state attorney general about their business practice. When I get some time I'll write a letter to my congressional delegation about abuse of the DMCA take down provisions. I've also dropped MicroSoft from my list of companies to do business with when I can at all do that.

 

But to sue them would cost me far more than that 60 bucks. However they also have lost far more than that 60 bucks through inaction when they could have pro-activly fixed the problem they created. Icing on the cake. My new computer running a Valid Version of Vista failed "validation" to obtain a patch from their webite. Great, I can't Validate, to get a patch to make the product work right, which means that MS could make my product not work right.

 

Anyway, the only time little guys can win is when someone with money back them up, or enough people cause enough sales damage by doing what is within their means.

Edited September 20, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[+Confucius' Cat]

I guess it is kinda the bottom line (pardon the expression) with legal issues that if you don't have the money to fight it, you are at the mercy of those who do.

 

I would think copying small bits of lyrics on a cache page would be pretty harmless, but I guess if the cache depended on the lyrics (such as a puzzle), there would be a good chance that the lyrics could disappear.

 

One fortunate thing about copyrights in relation to such use is I assume the copyright owners would have a hard time proving economic damages. Therefore it would most likely end with a "cease and desist" letter- provided the cache owner complies.

 

I used to serve on the town board (town is unincorporated so the town board has no power) and we used to hold 4th of July celebrations every year. One year a local resident dresed up as Barney and the kids had a real good time with it. We got a "friendly" certified letter from Barney's lawyers.

 

My point in that is that things that seem very innocent to us common folks can be blown up into Armageddon by the people with the money.

 

I think their point is to not let anyone get even a little toe in the door- much less a foot.

 

So EVERYTHING is copyrighted. Quote at your own risk.

[+Lotho]

On one one my caches, the whole clue is lyrics from a song, so i should hope they aren't copyrighted!

[+Confucius' Cat]

(post deleted)

sorry, my comments really only applied to U.S.

 

Good luck to ya over there in the U.K.

 

maybe y'all aren't quite so petty as we are over here..

Edited September 23, 2007 by Confucius' Cat