Hiding a cache under a corner mailbox?

[+HelloNinja]

I'm working on placing my first cache (a micro) and the best option I've found in the area I'd like to hide it is by magnetically attaching it underneath one of those big blue corner mailboxes. I've found caches hidden underneath the larger green satellite mailboxes ( where mail from the smaller boxes is placed by carriers for a larger pickup) but I don't know if this green mailbox hide was legal in the first place.

 

Any of you ever hide or seek a cache under a blue mailbox? Would this be kosher?

 

Thanks for the help!

[gulfscuba]

I would probably pass it by. I really don't like looking for caches on or around places that may lead people to think I might be tampering.

[+briansnat]

Tampering with a mailbox is a crime. I don't know if the law would conisder attaching a cache to a mailbox to be tampering, but I wouldn't want to be the one to find out.

[+Kabuthunk]

I'd say it's possible. I've found one in a very similar type of location. However... I would personally pass on putting one there myself.

 

I've only hid one cache so far, but passed on about 8 or 9 other hiding spots I've found. The reason is because before I hide a cache, I ask myself "Why am I putting a cache here?".

If the only answer I can come up with is "Because I can" or "There's none nearby (which is basically 'because I can')", I'll pass. I don't like making caches that are there purely to increase a count number, or put a cache where one currently isn't.

A follow-up question I ask myself is "Would I want to bring a non-geocaching friend here?". If the answer is "no", then I'll pass.

 

The cache I DID place is in a scenic area (well... the most scenic in the area... I grew up in the country) that I'd definitely bring people to visit.

 

Hence... in short-answer form to your question... I have seen other caches placed in those locations, but haven't been impressed at all with the ones I've been to. "Yay, a mailbox. *sigh*". If there's something worth looking at there, and that's a good place to view it from, go for it. But then again, I'm the type of guy who like to have a reason to go somewhere other than 'because I can'.

[+Semper Questio]

We've got several caches of various types attached to blue boxes, mailbox pods, and so on. I've often wondered if this was a violation of federal mail tampering laws. Anyone out there know the definitive answer on this one?

[+ThePropers]

My first thought, given the current post-9/11 environment, is that tampering with anything related to the mail system is probably not the best thing to do. But that's just my opinion, and wouldn't feel comfortable placing it or looking for it.

Edited December 15, 2006 by ThePropers

[+HelloNinja]

Seems like it's a pretty grey area, which for me means that it's probably best to avoid this sort of cache. Thanks for all of your help... I'll look for an alternative place to hide this one.

[Zoptrop]

My 2 cents worth...

 

Bad idea. Just think how it'd look in morning paper or on the evening news.

 

Bridges, Dams, Government Buildings, Mail Facilities and just about any other kind of Public Infrastructure seem like bad places for caches IMHO.

[+sbell111]

It's not grey at all. It's clearly not illegal. The only federal law that I could find that is on-point is 18 USC Section 35:

 

Whoever willfully or maliciously injures, tears down or destroys any letter box or other receptacle intended or used for the receipt or delivery of mail on any mail route, or breaks open the same or willfully or maliciously injures, defaces or destroys any mail deposited therein, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

 

Sticking a magnet to the bottom of a mailbox cannot be construed as injuring, tearing down, destroying or breaking open the box, nor is it damaging any of the mail in any way.

[+StarBrand]

Just sounds like inviting trouble even if it is strictly legal.

[+Prime Suspect]

Attaching anything to a post office box is considered vandalism, and is a Federal crime. Violators can be fined up to $250,000 or imprisoned for up to three years.

 

So yeah, I say Go For It!

[+Jamie Z]

I'm working on placing my first cache (a micro) and the best option I've found in the area I'd like to hide it is by magnetically attaching it underneath one of those big blue corner mailboxes.

That most certainly can't be the best option. Aside from the potential federal trouble, I can't think of any compelling reason to hide a cache on a mailbox. It must be quite a neat corner.

 

Seriously, take a look around and ask, "Why am I hiding a cache here? Why do I want to bring people to this spot?" That should be the first criteria for hiding a cache.

 

Jamie

[+HelloNinja]

Seriously, take a look around and ask, "Why am I hiding a cache here? Why do I want to bring people to this spot?" That should be the first criteria for hiding a cache.

 

Jamie

 

I'm actually trying to bring people to a really cool historical site in Chicago. It's the house Carl Sandberg lived in when he wrote his famous poem, "Chicago", which coined the term "City of Big Shoulders." The idea is to bring people to the house, read the historical information on a sign, and then find the cache nearby.

 

I'm going to look for another option. The mailbox just doesn't seem like a good idea.

[+cantuland]

Hiding a cache under a bridge is not allowed by Geocaching.com if the public is going to drive over it. Is it against the law, though? Probably not illegal. Unethical, but probably not illegal. So how about attaching a device so that it is hidden on the underside of government property that people will frequent for mail purposes? Legal or not, I would think it to be just as unethical. If I was tracking down a multicache and the coordinates led me to a mailbox out in the open, I wouldn't go crawling all around it looking for "a mysteriously hidden object". I would consider it a bad choice of a cache and skip it.

 

How about something like:

Go to the posted coordinates. If you see a dog house, go to __. If you see a mailbox, go to ___. If you see a tree stump, go to __.

 

And make each set of coordinates something worthy of a place to put a cache, but only one of them, the mailbox coordinates, has the cache.

 

Tell them that in this vicinity they will find such and such historical site with blah blah details. And if you go to the posted coordinates nearby, you will be at the first stage of a multistage geocache. Go to the posted coordinates, and if you see: ...

 

If you really like the site, be creative, but be ethical.

 

cantuland

[+DiS02]

As a former postal carrier (both rural & city) I'd recommend staying away from attaching anything to a USPS box of any sort.

 

If its a mailbox you buy & put up on your property, well, thats your property.

 

They still havent solved the anthrax mailings of what, 5 yrs ago.

 

There have been scares since then.

 

Do you want to go to federal jail for putting something on a usps mail box & someone thinks you are tampering with it?

Fed raps are not easy to shake & dont look good to employers or prespective employers.

[Not So Lost Puppies]

I saw this in another thread that is very relevant:

 

... We had a bad incident this weekend where a bomb squad was called out to destroy a cache that a newbie placed on a post office box. 6 cachers either found or hunted for the cache before the incident and not one of them said anything about the cache being placed illegally. If they only would have spoken up...

 

direct link to the quoted post

[+benh57]

Attaching anything to a post office box is considered vandalism, and is a Federal crime. Violators can be fined up to $250,000 or imprisoned for up to three years.

 

So yeah, I say Go For It!

 

Source?

[+QuesterMark]

 

I'm actually trying to bring people to a really cool historical site in Chicago. It's the house Carl Sandberg lived in when he wrote his famous poem, "Chicago", which coined the term "City of Big Shoulders." The idea is to bring people to the house, read the historical information on a sign, and then find the cache nearby.

 

I'm going to look for another option. The mailbox just doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

Find a way to make the historical info part of a Multi. Then you can put the 2nd stage somewhere nearby, but not necessarily right where you can see the sign...

[Not So Lost Puppies]

Attaching anything to a post office box is considered vandalism, and is a Federal crime. Violators can be fined up to $250,000 or imprisoned for up to three years.

 

So yeah, I say Go For It!

 

Source?

I haven't seen it clearly spelled out, but I'm sure that many would consider it to be 'tampering' with the mailbox.

 

In any case.. I can't think of any time when it would be a good idea to place anything on a mailbox of any kind.

[Zoptrop]

Per USPS website:

 

Can I affix a flyer or poster to a USPS® Collection Box®?

 

USPS® Collection boxes are the property of the United States Postal Service®. You are not allowed to affix anything to them, including flyers, signs about missing items or animals, and advertisements.

 

Note: For further information please refer to the DMM section D041.1.3 or contact your Post Office™.

[+Prime Suspect]

Attaching anything to a post office box is considered vandalism, and is a Federal crime. Violators can be fined up to $250,000 or imprisoned for up to three years.

 

So yeah, I say Go For It!

 

Source?

That would be the United States Postal Inspection Service: "Mailboxes are considered federal property, and federal law (Title 18, United States Code, Section 1705), makes it a crime to vandalize them (and to injure, deface or destroy any mail deposited in them). Violators can be fined up to $250,000 or imprisoned for up to three years for each act of vandalism."

[+9Key]

You should pass on the mailbox idea. There's got to be better places in your area to hide a cache.

[+Harrald]

I have to agree with most of the other posters here. A micro under a mailbox may cause problems for the person looking for the cache and for you as the cache placer.

 

Also...what about the mailbox makes it worth having a cache there?

[+Kit Fox]

Reviewers will not approve a cache attached, magnetized, or placed anywhere on a mailbox, if they are aware of the hiding spot.

 

I'm sure after three years of caching, that you can come up with a more creative spot.

Edited December 20, 2006 by Kit Fox

[+GrateBear]

Here's a travel bug that is attaching to mail boxes around the world. I found it on the bottom of a mail box in Chicago. Must admit I was a bit uncomfortable retreiving it. But, the location and the tb were approved.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.as...6e-b65025666daa

[Keystone]

But, the location and the tb were approved.

1. Nothing in the cache description expressly states that the cache is attached to a mailbox. How would a reviewer know to ask that? I have never knowingly published a cache attached to a mailbox. I have declined many submissions when a reviewer note, a cache title or an encrypted hint tell me that the cache is likely hidden in this inappropriate location. But absent evidence on the cache page that there's an issue, we publish caches that appear to meet the listing guidelines. We "review" caches; we don't "approve" them. If you'd like an "approval" process, be prepared for a week's delay while the volunteer asks a few hundred questions like "by any chance, is this cache attached to a mailbox?"

 

Here, the hint says "blue box." But that can have lots of meanings. Or the hint could've been added after the cache was published. There was no reviewer note describing the cache's hiding place to the reviewer.

 

2. There is no "approval process" for travel bugs.

Edited December 21, 2006 by Keystone

[Relic_Hunter_Finder]

Reply: I would like to first off say that my first cache find was between

the opening of a official government mail box. Therefore, I see

no reason why you shouldn't that is, of course, if you want to.

 

Lastly (to my knowledge) there is no law forbidding you from

hiding a cache in such an area, however, you should do your

homework before you decide to place a cache in any

environment that you find questionable.

[+The O'Hara Cache Crew]

HelloNinja,

 

With all the negative posts flying about I hope you still hide your cache. If you read this, Please send me the Waypoint for the cache, I should be in Chicago in late Spring/early Summer of '07 and would love to check out the house of Mr. Sandberg.

 

And, what about a very obvious, flat magnetic sheet, cache with the last 3 numbers of each coord on it. ie,.(356 - 078) Right out in the open but meaningless to most people. No hunting around on the box but also removeable (not permanent) by the USPS if they so choose to do some maintenance. I think that would work for ya.

 

Just a thought and good luck with it.

 

Capt. B

T.O.C.C.

 

YARR!!

[+GrateBear]

But, the location and the tb were approved.

1. Nothing in the cache description expressly states that the cache is attached to a mailbox. How would a reviewer know to ask that? I have never knowingly published a cache attached to a mailbox. I have declined many submissions when a reviewer note, a cache title or an encrypted hint tell me that the cache is likely hidden in this inappropriate location. But absent evidence on the cache page that there's an issue, we publish caches that appear to meet the listing guidelines. We "review" caches; we don't "approve" them. If you'd like an "approval" process, be prepared for a week's delay while the volunteer asks a few hundred questions like "by any chance, is this cache attached to a mailbox?"

 

Here, the hint says "blue box." But that can have lots of meanings. Or the hint could've been added after the cache was published. There was no reviewer note describing the cache's hiding place to the reviewer.

 

2. There is no "approval process" for travel bugs.

 

Sorry, just trying to point out that it was under a mailbox. I did think that reviewers did actually check caches. And, was just stupid to say the TB was "approved"--that was a mistake.

Edited December 22, 2006 by GrateBear

[Relic_Hunter_Finder]

2. There is no "approval process" for travel bugs

 

Question: If a member of the geocaching community hides a cache in

an inappropriate area, wouldn't Geocaching.com find out about

it over the span of time?

[Keystone]

Question: If a member of the geocaching community hides a cache in

an inappropriate area, wouldn't Geocaching.com find out about

it over the span of time?

Yes, it is not uncommon for a cache in an off-limits location to slip through the review process. Once I published a cache 200 feet from the front door of an elementary school. It was not labeled as a school on any of the maps available to me. But an early finder got the "evil eye" from a mother who brought her kids to the school playground, and who was suspicious of a man parking at the school and walking into the woods alone. So that geocacher contacted me, I did some more research to confirm there was a school at that location, and the cache was archived.

 

Mailbox caches are harder to catch. The cache page is not going to say "this cache is hidden on the bottom of a mailbox," and mailboxes don't show up on maps or aerial photos. When they're brought to my attention, I ask the owner if they have permission from the Postal Service for the placement of a cache on their property.

 

If a geocacher has a concern about a cache location, they can (1) ASK THE OWNER FIRST, (2) leave a "needs archived" log on the cache page, or (3) contact Geocaching.com or a volunteer reviewer by e-mail.

[+sbell111]

Per USPS website:

 

Can I affix a flyer or poster to a USPS® Collection Box®?

 

USPS® Collection boxes are the property of the United States Postal Service®. You are not allowed to affix anything to them, including flyers, signs about missing items or animals, and advertisements.

 

Note: For further information please refer to the DMM section D041.1.3 or contact your Post Office™.

This is D041.1.3:

Except under 3.2.11, Newspaper Receptacle, the receptacles described in 3.1.1 may be used only for matter bearing postage. Other than as permitted by 3.2.10, Delivery of Unstamped Newspapers, or 3.2.11, no part of a mail receptacle may be used to deliver any matter not bearing postage, including items or matter placed upon, supported by, attached to, hung from, or inserted into a mail receptacle. Any mailable matter not bearing postage and found as described above is subject to the same postage as would be paid if it were carried by mail.

From this, it would appear that attaching the magnetic micro to the bottom of the box would be fine, as long as appropriate postage was attached.

[+sbell111]

That would be the United States Postal Inspection Service: "Mailboxes are considered federal property, and federal law (Title 18, United States Code, Section 1705), makes it a crime to vandalize them (and to injure, deface or destroy any mail deposited in them). Violators can be fined up to $250,000 or imprisoned for up to three years for each act of vandalism."

Please see my post #9 above. I quoted the law that you referenced, which does not appear to apply in this case.

[+Markwell]

Simple solution: call the post office and get permission.

[+sbell111]

Simple solution: call the post office and get permission.

How is that a solution? Will the next postal employee honor the recommendation of whichever flunky answered the phone?

 

[vagabond]

[+Markwell]

Simple solution: call the post office and get permission.

How is that a solution? Will the next postal employee honor the recommendation of whichever flunky answered the phone?

 

Try getting permission from a Forest Preserve or State Park. Will the ranger honor the recommendation of whichever flunky answered the phone? Maybe - maybe not. OK, get written permission from the postmaster of the town.

[+sbell111]

Simple solution: call the post office and get permission.

How is that a solution? Will the next postal employee honor the recommendation of whichever flunky answered the phone?

 

Try getting permission from a Forest Preserve or State Park. Will the ranger honor the recommendation of whichever flunky answered the phone? Maybe - maybe not. OK, get written permission from the postmaster of the town.

The way I see it, you can either start a thread to discuss permission issues or you can attempt to divert each thread to that topic. I guess you have chosen which you prefer.

[+sbell111]

To bring this thread back to topic:

Would a magnetic micro attached to the bottom of a mailbox be legal?

According to the citations that I have found, it would be legal, although you might have to pay for postage as if it were being mailed.

Any of you ever hide or seek a cache under a blue mailbox?

I've never hidden one like that, but I have found one.

Would this be kosher?

As Keystone explained, a cache hidden in this manner would not be listed. If a cache were discovered to be hidden in this manner, it would be archived. I suspect that the other reviewers would agree with Keystone.

[+Markwell]

The way I see it, you can either start a thread to discuss permission issues or you can attempt to divert each thread to that topic. I guess you have chosen which you prefer.

 

That was interesting. I had to look back at my posts with the word "permission" to see what this was all about.

 

Ah, I see. We were discussing a blue mailbox in February of 2005. It was in that thread a full 675 days ago that I advocated getting permission to place a cache on a mailbox.

 

Yep - I guess I'm really diverting each thread to that topic.

 

[+sbell111]

The way I see it, you can either start a thread to discuss permission issues or you can attempt to divert each thread to that topic. I guess you have chosen which you prefer.

 

That was interesting. I had to look back at my posts with the word "permission" to see what this was all about.

 

Ah, I see. We were discussing a blue mailbox in February of 2005. It was in that thread a full 675 days ago that I advocated getting permission to place a cache on a mailbox.

 

Yep - I guess I'm really diverting each thread to that topic.

 

So it's OK to be far afield if you don't do it in every thread? Cool.

[+Markwell]

Actually, I believe that seeking permission for placing a cache on a U.S. Postal box is quite on topic to the OP question. If you think I'm off-topic, I'll make my statement and my belief completely on topic in the form of an answer to the OP's question.

 

...I don't know if this green mailbox hide was legal in the first place.

 

Any of you ever hide or seek a cache under a blue mailbox? Would this be kosher?

 

I would think it would be OK to place a cache like this if you have explicit permission from the Postmaster of the local post office

Edited December 30, 2006 by Markwell

[dale hollow lake]

still shaking my head at all those fearful of the long arm of the law, get a life, the next time I see a dog piss on a blue mail box IM calling crime stoppers surely after reading some of these post about tampering with the USMAIL, I should get a big check for the info

 

If your so worried someones tag along wont be overwhelmed at watching his pal pull a magnetic suspense filled key magnet off to sign his name, warn the would be hunter in your description there is soon to be depression at hand when the item is found, clearly state there will be no breath taking moment for all to realize

[+The Leprechauns]

Dale, have you been confronted by an angry landowner or a suspicious law enforcement officer during any of your four cache hunts? It's happened to me a couple dozen times.

 

The game's guidelines attempt to minimize these unenjoyable experiences. The game is supposed to be fun. What is fun about getting questioned about your suspicious activities near a mailbox?

[Relic_Hunter_Finder]

Reply: Well, guy's, this is what I said before and I'l say it again.

...." you should do your homework before you decide to place a

cache in any environment that you find questionable."

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

A very common hide (I've found at least two of these) is to stick it behind a stop sign (or similar traffic sign) using the indented steel rod that holds the sign up.

 

It like the postal box, is probably a recipe for trouble. The only time I was ever stopped while caching was doing one of these. Quiet neighborhood, no one around, but as I drive off an old man walks right in front of my car, says he's been seeing me and others going over there (especially at night, though I did it around 8:30am) and he is going to call the police.

 

I gave him my printout of the cache and he said he thinks his "techie" son in Calif. may be into this sort of thing, so he let me go.

[dale hollow lake]

Dale, have you been confronted by an angry landowner or a suspicious law enforcement officer during any of your four cache hunts? It's happened to me a couple dozen times.

 

The game's guidelines attempt to minimize these enjoyable experiences. The game is supposed to be fun. What is fun about getting questioned about your suspicious activities near a mailbox?

 

the point is anyone who See's one of us snooping, looking, wandering, referring to a handheld object is going to become concerned. Each of us has to understand what we are doing is not normal so those from a distance will not understand unless we talk to them. But all this about federal violations for a key magnet, isnt going to happen.

 

maybe being a retired police officer from a major city leaves me way to cynical. didn't mean to offend

[dale hollow lake]

Dale, have you been confronted by an angry landowner or a suspicious law enforcement officer during any of your four cache hunts? It's happened to me a couple dozen times.

 

The game's guidelines attempt to minimize these enjoyable experiences. The game is supposed to be fun. What is fun about getting questioned about your suspicious activities near a mailbox?

 

the point is anyone who See's one of us snooping, looking, wandering, referring to a handheld object is going to become concerned. Each of us has to understand what we are doing is not normal so those from a distance will not understand unless we talk to them. But all this about federal violations for a key magnet, isn't going to happen.

 

maybe being a retired police officer from a major city leaves me way to cynical. didn't mean to offend

 

Leprechauns: wasn't going by the 4 I found, because on one the person placing the object had to tell me twice where it was and a second one i was almost in the wrong county, I was going by 30 years law enforcement experience, your 90 finds says way more about your life experience's keep up those warm fuzzy sunny sunday drives

[+The Leprechauns]

Holy carp! Someone's deleted 2,005 of my geocache finds!

 

On topic: it is very easy when I encounter law enforcement while hunting for a cache placed in an appropriate location -- whether urban, suburban or rural. Sometimes they've joined in on the hunt. Sometimes they've given me a hint. Sometimes they say "oh yeah, geocaching... have a nice day!"

 

But when I'm questioned at an "odd" location, that is when the activity receives greater scrutiny. Fortunately I've never been detained, cited or taken to the precinct house for questioning, like the fellow visiting a travel bug hotel near Los Angeles International Airport, or the guy hunting a micro near a gas station.

[+sbell111]

... But when I'm questioned at an "odd" location, that is when the activity receives greater scrutiny. Fortunately I've never been detained, cited or taken to the precinct house for questioning, like the fellow visiting a travel bug hotel near Los Angeles International Airport, or the guy hunting a micro near a gas station.

I loved that LAX TB hotel. It still bugs me that people are allowed to walk their dog, jog and bike there but the cache was verboten.