Ftf On An Unpublished Cache

[+Bill & Tammy]

Since I am new to this, just was curious as to everyone's opinions. This is the way I understand the situation: A new cache was recently placed but wasn't immediately approved due to it's proximity to another cache. The cache owner provides "insider" info to another cacher for their assistance in moving it. This cacher claims a FTF when they move it (and takes the FTF prize). The cache is then approved some time later. Is it a true FTF when it is unpublished and only you know about it?

[+briansnat]

If you are the first person to find a cache, then you are first to find. The next person along is second to find and so on.

[+briansnat]

Also, what some people don't understand is that Geocaching.com is just a listing service. Cache owners are free to publicize caches in any manner they want. That could include using another listing service, using a personal web page, posting the coordinates on a newsgroup or bulletin board or e-mailing them to friends or any combination of these methods.

 

I guess the person who finds the cache first after it was published here could consider himself to be the "First to Find After Being Listed on Geocaching.com (a.k.a FTFABLOG.C), but he's still the second to find it.

Edited September 19, 2005 by briansnat

[WH]

1st or 50th, all the same.

[+Bill & Tammy]

Also, what some people don't understand is that Geocaching.com is just a listing service. Cache owners are free to publicize caches in any manner they want. That could include using another listing service, using a personal web page, posting the coordinates on a newsgroup or bulletin board or e-mailing them to friends or any combination of these methods.

 

I guess the person who finds the cache first after it was published here could consider himself to be the "First to Find After Being Listed on Geocaching.com (a.k.a FTFABLOG.C), but he's still the second to find it.

Great info, thanks for clearing that up... that makes sense. I just wondered because being FTF seems like a big deal in my area and if folks are going to put so much effort into attempting a "first to find" as a competitive thing the playing field should be level in some manner I guess.

 

I can also see how someone without the benefit GCing.com that just stumbles across a cache first should get credit as well and what you are saying will allow that.

 

Anyway, didn't want to stir up a fuss, just needed to educate myself on how it all works.

[+Thot]

Hmm . . . Interesting. The owner tells someone (a friend presumably) where the cache is. This friend then hides the cache in a new location and this qualifies as him/her finding it, and claiming the FTF prize.

[+Frodo13]

Maybe you could explain what you mean by insider informaiton. Did they simply provide the same information that was to be posted, if so then they did "find" the cache "first". I would imagine most folks would feel a little uncomfortable claiming the FTF prize, since their assistance was enlisted to relocate the cache as you describe. Also I couldn't claim a FTF prize if I was the only person looking. Running a race all by yourself ensures you will finish first, and last. I would consider a PM to the person claiming FTF and asking them if they are ok with their claim.

[+welch]

Great info, thanks for clearing that up... that makes sense. I just wondered because being FTF seems like a big deal in my area and if folks are going to put so much effort into attempting a "first to find" as a competitive thing the playing field should be level in some manner I guess.

Ok, but who's making this competive?

The cache owner can place what FTF prize (or not) in the cache. They could also just wander down the street and hand out twenty dollar bills, it doesn't really matter its just a game.

[+benjamin921]

Win some, lose some. Have fun.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Sometimes what you see can be misinterpreted as well. I've twice found caches, new GC.com listings - then the listing was "unlisted" and then later after something was clarified, relisted. One of my most recent "found it logs" will lead you to a "this cache is not approved yet" page - but it was listed briefly.

[+TotemLake]

Hmm . . . Interesting. The owner tells someone (a friend presumably) where the cache is. This friend then hides the cache in a new location and this qualifies as him/her finding it, and claiming the FTF prize.

It's still a legitimate find regardless of the info provided by the hider. The finder still had to go out and find it. Is it a lame find? I guess that depends on the quality of the provided information.

[+JohnnyVegas]

I just wondered because being FTF seems like a big deal in my area and if folks are going to put so much effort into attempting a "first to find"

It is kind of that way around here. I have not had a FTF for about 11.5 hours

 

But I had a DNF just two hours ago at 7AM trying for another FTF

 

I'm going back to sleep

 

Edit to add: the first is the first to find after the cache is posted on the web site, If some one helps place a cache they should not take the FTF prize. In this area if someone helps place a cache the helper will leave room on the log for the real FTF, and they will not take the FTF prize if there is one. Helping to place a cache and then takeing the FTF prize shows no class at all. And it is not a real FTF

 

For those who read the OP posting, the person who took the FTF prize took it befor e the cache was posted on the site.

Edited September 19, 2005 by JohnnyVegas

[+wandererrob]

Hmm . . . Interesting. The owner tells someone (a friend presumably) where the cache is. This friend then hides the cache in a new location and this qualifies as him/her finding it, and claiming the FTF prize.

X2. If it were my cache I'd say "no way, put it back".

[+JohnnyVegas]

1st or 50th, all the same.

This is not correct

 

Not when there is a prize for FTF., the prize should go the the real FTF. Not HTF (the help find)

[+Markwell]

Here in Chicago, Special Ed and Falleynfaery started a wonderful tradition of honoring cachers' milestones with a memorial cache. You can find them (when the site is running again) as Greenback's 1000th, Syperuser's 3000th, Genius Loci's 2000th, etc. Every 1000 caches gets you a honor cache.

 

The caches are hidden in close proximity to the cacher's house, and the hider gives special clues for the honoree to find it, evidently prior to listing.

 

Very cool if you ask me.

 

Someday I may find 1000 caches and actually get one of them.

[+Markwell]

1st or 50th, all the same.

This is not correct

 

Not when there is a prize for FTF., the prize should go the the real FTF. Not HTF (the help find)

If someone wants to give his FRIEND a FTF item, why get yourself all worked up about it. It's a gift, not an entitlement.

[+BDstarcachers]

Edit to add: the first is the first to find after the cache is posted on the web site, If some one helps place a cache they should not take the FTF prize. In this area if someone helps place a cache the helper will leave room on the log for the real FTF, and they will not take the FTF prize if there is one. Helping to place a cache and then takeing the FTF prize shows no class at all. And it is not a real FTF

 

For those who read the OP posting, the person who took the FTF prize took it befor e the cache was posted on the site.

In my opinion, yes, GC.com is just the listing service, but the caching community is pretty much self regulated and it runs on honesty.

 

If someone gives insider info on a non-published cache, I do not think this is fair to claim the FTF. In my area Northeast OH, FTF is a fun off shoot of this game that is very competitive. For the most part, cachers here are as honest as expected and respect others going for the FTF.

 

It's just a game, but when it's not fair, that makes it bad for everyone. Cachers can do whatever they think is right and honest. If they can live with doing something like this, then so be it. That wouldn't be the way I would play the game and alienate fellow cachers.

[ParentsofSAM]

I do not think that friends should be the FTF...especially if there is $$ or a FTF prize involved. It looks mighty supicious if you hind a cache and then your friend (and the caching community knows that person is your friend) gets the FTF and takes the prize, people may wonder if you really ever put a prize in the first place. It would be ok if the friend found it but then left the prize for the STF. But that is just my opinion.

[+CYBret]

I had this happen once. A local cacher was receiving some heat from the local reviewer about the placement of his new cache. Apparently the reviewer felt like it might be a dangerous location. So I was asked by the cacher to show up and play Jim Fowler to his Marlin Perkins ("While Bret climbs the tree to retrieve the cache, I'll be back in the car enjoying the air conditioning"). I found the cache, signed the logbook but didn't take the FTF prize...I took the knife instead!

 

Echoing the words of others....I really couldn't care less about the FTF. If it's important to you then call it FTFTCAIWL (First To Find The Cache After It Was Listed).

 

Congrats!

 

Bret

[+briansnat]

If someone gives insider info on a non-published cache, I do not think this is fair to claim the FTF.

 

How does one "claim" a FTF? I've also heard of owners "awarding" FTFs. A cache is placed and the first person there is the first to find it, period. Doesn't matter if he got the coords from this site, received them in an e-mail from the owner or found them in a fortune cookie.

[+welch]

I do not think that friends should be the FTF...especially if there is $$ or a FTF prize involved. It looks mighty supicious if you hind a cache and then your friend (and the caching community knows that person is your friend) gets the FTF and takes the prize, people may wonder if you really ever put a prize in the first place. It would be ok if the friend found it but then left the prize for the STF. But that is just my opinion.

who cares? FTF prizes are optional and awarded at the discretion of the cache owner. Why get worked up over something that was meant as a nice gesture?

[+baloo&bd]

I'd like to know the cache the original poster was talking about. I know recently Magellan held a contest involving Geocaches that are listed with GC but not until after Magellan users gat a first crack at them. This might be the case here.

[+Ambrosia]

The cachers in my area have an unwritten code. Sometimes we go with each other on caching trips where one of us may hide a cache. Even though we find the cache after it is placed, no one in the area considers it a FTF. The next person to find it after it is placed on gc.com is considered the FTF by all.

 

This is just how our area plays it.

[+Runaround]

Why all the angst? I'm often FTF (fiftieth to find). I've yet to see a First to Find prize that is worth getting fired up over. If I wanted the item that bad, I'd just go buy it.

 

EDIT: typo

Edited September 20, 2005 by Runaround

[+blindleader]

If I were the "second" to find on the cache described by the OP, I would certainly claim FTF in my on line log, list it in my records as such, and include it in my FTF bookmark list. In fact I have FTF on at least one cache which was found, and the log book signed, by a muggle two days before it was published. My claim is that the first log does not fit my definition of geocaching.

 

Get a lawyer and sue me if you like. Or better yet, report me to the FTF authority so they can impose sanctions or something... wait a minute... There is no such thing. An FTF is whatever anyone says it is. I doubt that many people share briansnat's view, which I find a little bizarre, but it has the same official standing as mine does. I can defend my opinion with logic, facts, and common sense, but I won't because playing tennis without a net seems pointless.

[+ODragon]

Why all the angst?  I'm often FTF (fiftieth to find).  I've yet to see a First to Find prize that is worth getting fired up over.  If I wanted the item that bad, I'd just go buy it.

FTF prizes in local caches here:

 

Pretty glass paper weights

$25 restaurant gift certificates

DVDs (not dollar store crap)

$10 Gift Certificates

BIG tins of Crazy Aaron Putty (Crazy Aaron is also a local cacher.)

 

Well I agree that they're all buyable, it's nice to open a cache and find things like this in there.

[+BDstarcachers]

Gees, these discussions sure do get blown out of proportion!!!

No, often times the FTF prize is not that big of a deal and sometimes it is.

 

In my area, it is the thrill of BEING the FTF not necessarily getting the prize.

It's a personal challenge, not something that is tabulated on GC.com. Some

keep their own stats on their FTFs.

And what is important to some, may not be important to others.

 

I just think that honesty and common courtesy when playing is important

or else it taints the game. Not only in FTF but in the entire game!

 

Anyone in this forum who doesn't think that way, it is your opinion and

I respect that.

 

I just know that those who do enjoy the FTF challenge are frustrated

by those who are not honest going about it.

 

Just FYI...

[+briansnat]

I just know that those who do enjoy the FTF challenge are frustrated

by those who are not honest going about it.

 

I don't see why you are calling other geocachers dishonest. Because some owners chose not to use Geocaching.com to list their cache first (or at all) does not make them dishonest.

[+Isonzo Karst]

I'm with briansnat completely on this. GC.com is just a listing service. I had a bunch of caches listed on a local geocachers board for a while - not here. When I published them here they all had 5 or 6 finds. And a FTF too. It just wasn't an exclusive GC.com user. My husband (a wise man) once said of geocaching, "It's a game. You play it with your friends. Some people are more your friends than others." I no longer remeber what I was whining about that brought that out of him (probably a missed FTF), but he's right.

[+StarBrand]

Our local Group Web site will list Geocaches often before GC.com or they coords are swapped via chat or discussion boards. Folks submit the cache there first then back to the local board to share info too. FTF is what you make it to be.

[+Thot]

I just know that those who do enjoy the FTF challenge are frustrated

by those who are not honest going about it.

I don't see why you are calling other geocachers dishonest. Because some owners chose not to use Geocaching.com to list their cache first (or at all) does not make them dishonest.

Unless I misread the OP, we're talking about a cache that is listed on gc.com. Certainly if someone chooses to march to a completely different drummer that's his business. But, when you list on gc.com there are reasonable/common expectations.

 

I seems to me, if somebody advertises a desirable FTF prize to draw people into hunt his cache, then gives the prize to his buddy under the table; all those who jumped and dashed maybe 50 miles to compete for the attractive prize have been deceived/hoodwinked/scammed.

 

Now, if he puts the prize in the cache for his buddy to find and never mentions it publicly or on his cache page that's another thing. Even then there are people who invest a lot of their lives in trying to be FTF. In my opinion if the owner knows his cache has already been found, he should publish a Note explaining this that will show up when his cache is approved. That is, when the cache appears on gc.com it would already have a note explaining it has been found.

 

Opinions being free, that's mine.

Edited September 20, 2005 by Thot

[+webscouter.]

I wasn't going to reply here but in order to keep it from getting ugly I decided to.

 

The cache that is being discussed is this one

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...73-0877cca93838

 

The events happened like this. A cache was placed that can only be found by finding a cache in every block of the Delorme map book for Kansas.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...18-4e2e4e26cd32

 

Block 27 didn't have any caches in it so two different cachers set out caches. Unfortunatly they were to close to each other. After the geocaching picnic the Kansas Admin was talking to some cachers from Wichita that wanted to work on the Delorme challange. In order to keep them from making a second trip three hours out of there way the cache owner gave them the coordinates of the unlisted cache and asked them to move it slightly so that the cache could be listed. The drove the 60 miles north to move the cache but realized they didn't know where the other cache was and didn't know which direction to move it. They signed the log. Then because I was heading up that way I was asked to move it. I traveled up and moved the cache enough to allow it to be listed. I also signed the log. I also let Bill (the OP) know that I was not claiming a FTF on the cache as FTF's are a major competition around here. I also did not take anything out of the cache. The original "mover" however did. Having found several caches by the hider I believe the FTF prize was five dollars. My thought is that the first finder thought that as they went 120 miles out of their way to do a favor for the cache owner they took the money to help pay for their gas. (BTW gas was 2.85 a gallon at the time.)

 

Although I don't agree with taking the FTF prize I also don't want to see the discussion get out of hand calling other cachers dishonest. Had the cache not been moved it would not be listed. The FTF prize was not listed and I logged my STF within a few minutes of the cache being published. (I gave the new coordinates to the admin and then logged the cache when it was listed.) I did this specifically to keep someone from making the run to be FTF even though I gave them that honor.

 

Also to give some background in KC a cache is usually found within 30 minutes of being listed and many times within 10 minutes. We routinely have four or five cachers show up in the first 30 minutes. We jokingly tell our admins that we need an event cache approved with every cache release.

[+briansnat]

Also to give some background in KC a cache is usually found within 30 minutes of being listed and many times within 10 minutes. We routinely have four or five cachers show up in the first 30 minutes.

 

You guys ought to come to New Jersey.

Edited September 20, 2005 by briansnat

[+Thot]

I wasn't going to reply here but in order to keep it from getting ugly I decided to. 

 

<snip>

It's good to have that clarification, but since the specifics weren't known I think this has/had been or developed into a theoretical/conceptual discussion of the principles involved.

Edited September 21, 2005 by Thot

[+webscouter.]

Also to give some background in KC a cache is usually found within 30 minutes of being listed and many times within 10 minutes. We routinely have four or five cachers show up in the first 30 minutes.

 

You guys ought to come to New Jersey.

19 days without a find!!!! You New Jersey guys must be slackers.

[+BDstarcachers]

Unless I misread the OP, we're talking about a cache that is listed on gc.com. Certainly if someone chooses to march to a completely different drummer that's his business. But, when you list on gc.com there are reasonable/common expectations.

 

I seems to me, if somebody advertises a desirable FTF prize to draw people into hunt his cache, then gives the prize to his buddy under the table; all those who jumped and dashed maybe 50 miles to compete for the attractive prize have been deceived/hoodwinked/scammed.

 

Now, if he puts the prize in the cache for his buddy to find and never mentions it publicly or on his cache page that's another thing. Even then there are people who invest a lot of their lives in trying to be FTF. In my opinion if the owner knows his cache has already been found, he should publish a Note explaining this that will show up when his cache is approved. That is, when the cache appears on gc.com it would already have a note explaining it has been found.

 

Opinions being free, that's mine.

THANK YOU THOT, I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF!

[+GeoBlank]

I will have friends validate a puzzle before the listing is published. I tell them to leave and FTF swag (like a jeep) in the container but they do have their name in the log book first and a posting on the site.

 

The real FTF finder post publish I usually note in the description so they get all the glory.

 

I would rather have a friend validate the puzzle without hints than hope the real FTF person will have it bug free.

 

For non puzzle caches, I don't clue my friends in, if they help me hide it then it is not really a find for them anyway or else a lame one. (but valid)

[ParentsofSAM]

I seems to me, if somebody advertises a desirable FTF prize to draw people into hunt his cache, then gives the prize to his buddy under the table; all those who jumped and dashed maybe 50 miles to compete for the attractive prize have been deceived/hoodwinked/scammed.

That is a very good point Thot....your friends should not get your FTF prize.

[+Thot]

I will have friends validate a puzzle before the listing is published.  I tell them to leave and FTF swag (like a jeep) in the container but they do have their name in the log book first and a posting on the site.

 

The real FTF finder post publish I usually note in the description so they get all the glory.

 

I would rather have a friend validate the puzzle without hints than hope the real FTF person will have it bug free.

Gosh. Remind me never to make friends with you. I usually find solving puzzle caches painful enough, then to do it during the buggy stage and not get any special acclaim for it, and not be considered a real person too boot! Well . . . You must have very good friends – or, maybe by now you have none left. Just kidding; just kidding.

[+brbo]

..