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Jeremy

Creating New Waymark Categories

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There has been a great gnashing of teeth here at Groundspeak HQ during the process of creating Waymarking.com.

 

Throughout the process we have been deciding on the best way to create new Waymarking categories. We have gone from opening it up completely so any Premium Member could create any category, to severely restricting the idea so only Groundspeak can create categories. In the early stage of the Waymarking site we are seeding categories with interesting ideas to kick it off. In addition we are inviting locationless cache owners to convert their listings to Waymarking.com.

 

What we've tentatively decided on is a way that mirrors how Newsgroups are created and we'd like your feedback. Here's how it works:

 

Waymark Category Creation

 

All Premium Members will have the opportunity to make a Category Proposal in the forum and attempt to gain support for a waymark Category they feel would benefit the Waymarking.com community. There are 3 steps to the process:

 

1. Discussion

 

A discussion must first take place to address issues like the naming of the Category, the root Category in which it should be placed (People, Place or Thing), and whether or not it should be created in the first place.

 

The user wishing to create the Category will begin by posting a new topic with the topic title “Category Proposal: <name>” and a short description of the Category idea in the topic description. Contained within the first post should be a name or potential names for the Category, a description of the theme and target(s), and suggestions for placement in the directory. This first post can and should be edited frequently by the user to reflect suggestions made by other users who comment in the thread.

 

Users commenting in the Category Proposal thread should make their support clear by using language such as “I vote for the Category as proposed” or “I vote against the Category as proposed”.

 

When a consensus has been reached in the forum thread, and the idea is shown to have merit, it is moved to the next stage of the process.

 

2. Voting

 

After the discussion period, if the Category has been generally accepted by the community, and if a Category name and description have been agreed upon, a new forum topic will be created. The new topic heading should be “Category Poll: <name>” with the Category name in the topic description.

 

Premium Members will then cast a YES/create or NO/don’t create vote for the Category. Voting will commence 7 days after the initial vote is cast, and requires at least a 2/3 majority to move on to the next stage. If, after 7 days, the Category has less than 20 votes, the voting period may be extended until at least 20 votes are tallied.

 

3. Creation of the Category

 

Once a Category has been successful in gaining support, and conclusively shown by poll to be of value to the community, Groundspeak will create a Category based upon the agreed description and name. The Category will then be adopted by the person who proposed the Category so that he/she can begin accepting and managing new waymark submissions.

 

If your Category Proposal fails, do not give up hope. You may re-submit your Category Proposal after a three month waiting period, during which time you should refine your idea to make it more compatible with Waymarking and the Waymarking community. If, after a couple of tries it becomes obvious the community does not find value in an idea, the user should humbly step back and accept the opinion of the majority.

 

Granted, this is a tentative concept. As a Premium Member you now have the first opportunity to offer your own ideas and suggestions. Thanks!

Edited by Jeremy

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I'd like to be the first to propose a category. I would like to make a place category that is Scouting camps. This would include boy scout, girl scout, awana, campfire, church youth group etc long term camps.

 

The only thing that I think needs to be addressed is the fact that these are Youth areas. They are however usually listed on local council websites.

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I'd like to be the first to propose a category. I would like to make a place category that is Scouting camps. This would include boy scout, girl scout, awana, campfire, church youth group etc long term camps.

 

The only thing that I think needs to be addressed is the fact that these are Youth areas. They are however usually listed on local council websites.

That's a cool idea...However, might access to these sites be restricted to members only? :rolleyes:

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Yes, but lots of members use geocaching and soon Waymarking.com

 

Admin please move these responses to my thread concerning scouting camps.

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Oopss... too early for the brain to process... I'll do it correctly.. sorry.

Edited by Special Ed

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Can you add alt.binaries.pictures.er-- wait.

 

Hah, this is a great way to have categories added, hopefully it will prevent the "log a squirrel" form of caches, and is the best approximation of "use your common sense".

 

PS I do like squirrels. A lot.

Edited by maingray

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the first post should [contain] suggestions for placement in the directory

What does this mean?

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the first post should [contain] suggestions for placement in the directory

What does this mean?

As in where your suggested category should fit in the current directory . eg. under Places / Restaurants. I assume.

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Oops... removed because I can't read.

Edited by 4agers

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I'm going to unpin this topic since it will get more attention popping up and down in this thread. I want a general idea whether you think this process works, is broken, should be removed entirely, etc? The site was designed so we could open it up for people to create whatever category they want. However we ran into some issues:

 

1. Duplicated categories - where do I put my waymark?

2. Overreaching categories - I have a "water" category. Post any water related waymarks.

3. Inappropriate categories - rotting carcasses comes to mind (and yes, was a submitted virtual cache once)

4. Stupid categories - There are no stupid people, just stupid categories.

 

We thought that the newsgroup creation process was pretty good, and if this does work we'll do our best to automate the process so it doesn't get too bureaucratic.

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IMO, Groundspeak should be in charge of new categories, or at least a voting system as suggested. Then we won't get as many silly topics, we now have a McDonalds(which I wouldn't have voted for), what's next, Wendys, Burger King, Carls JR, Taco Bell, KFC, A&W, Panda Express? If the general public were in charge of categories themselves, there would really be a category for 'Trees' and another for 'Shrubberies' and another called 'Weeds,' and so forth. It would generate too many topics and posts, if there are 10 billion MickeyDees, I wouldn't wade thru that mess!

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Ooooh, and then Godwin's Law will kick in as people accuse Jeremy of being a Waymark Nazi -- oops, there's Godwin now! :):)

 

Seriously, I think there does need to be some control of it. Jeremy cited some good examples; also, as someone commented in the "Gentlemen's Club" thread, just because something could be a category doesn't mean it should.

 

I likewise probably wouldn't have set up a McD's category, but then again, why not? It's like the whole endless debate about virtuals, locationless, and micros -- if you don't like 'em, then don't look for 'em. :(

 

One of the most valuable experiences for me in placing my first cache was having it reviewed before it was published. The reviewer made some excellent suggestions, which I incorporated into the cache page. Posting category proposals for discussion serves much the same purpose, IMHO. People ask questions, and the OP revises or refines his/her proposal. In some cases, someone will find out that there's already a category very similar to what they've proposed.

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Once a category has been created will it be up to the "category manager" to create sub-categories or will they have to be proposed, discussed, voted, etc. by others?

An example would be Things > Historic Things > Historic Markers (managed by the Leprechauns). Currently there are 2 waymarks posted. One from Ontario and the other from Michigan. Should there not be subs set-up like: "Historic Markers - Ontario" or "Historic Markers - Michigan"? I suppose there would have to be a limit as to how many levels of subs is feasible particularly from a "search" standpoint.

 

Thanks, Olar

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Ooooh, and then Godwin's Law will kick in as people accuse Jeremy of being a Waymark Nazi -- oops, there's Godwin now! :):)

 

Seriously, I think there does need to be some control of it. Jeremy cited some good examples; also, as someone commented in the "Gentlemen's Club" thread, just because something could be a category doesn't mean it should.

 

I likewise probably wouldn't have set up a McD's category, but then again, why not? It's like the whole endless debate about virtuals, locationless, and micros -- if you don't like 'em, then don't look for 'em. :)

 

One of the most valuable experiences for me in placing my first cache was having it reviewed before it was published. The reviewer made some excellent suggestions, which I incorporated into the cache page. Posting category proposals for discussion serves much the same purpose, IMHO. People ask questions, and the OP revises or refines his/her proposal. In some cases, someone will find out that there's already a category very similar to what they've proposed.

I added the McDonald's on Broadway in Manhattan, but only because it is set apart from other McDonald's with its marble tables, baby grand, doorman, etc. This McDonald's is worth visiting, in my opinion, because it's fancier than even the better restaurants here.

 

I'm not a fan of McDonald's food, but I'd eat there again, if only for the ambiance. :(

 

Personally, I'd never add the McDonald's here, but the one to which I refer is definitely a sight (site) to see.

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So to create a new waymark / category you must first propose it in this forum first?

 

Can I propose the following:

 

- Wayside Rest Areas (we all need to know where these are!)

- Barns (a rare specimen and a dying breed of buildngs in today's world)

- Islands (big & small, freshwater & ocean)

- Gas Stations (important for those caching in remote or unfamiliar areas)

 

;)

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Just because I have a fear of not being liked, I would like to say that I think the 2/3 majority poll has me a bit concerned.

 

If a person isn't popular or well liked here, they could get a thumbs down on a decent idea. Worse, the idea could hang in limbo while no one votes for or against it.

 

Likewise, what are the chances that the community is going to shoot down a lame idea if it is presented by a well-liked or respected cacher?

 

I would hope, since most of us are adults, this wouldn't happen. But, I can see the potential for politics or cliques creating problems.

 

I think there should be some ultimate veto and / or acceptance role by Groundspeak. Furthermore, there should be an unbiased and fair appeals process.

 

Just my two cents.

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Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, this process applies only to categories.

 

If I wanted to post my own WayMark, would the process be similar to a geocache posting?

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Some waymark categories autopublish listings. Other waymark categories require the category manager to publish it.

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... IMO, Groundspeak should be in charge of new categories, or at least a voting system as suggested. Then we won't get as many silly topics, we now have a McDonalds(which I wouldn't have voted for), what's next, Wendys, Burger King, Carls JR, Taco Bell, KFC, A&W, Panda Express?

I don't have a vote but if I did .. there would be no subcategories for large franchised restaurants ... or any commecial businesses - after restaurants, do we get retail outlets? And as an aside ... as I wrote in a note at the first McDonald's waymark - it is somewhat sad that WM1 - the FIRST OFFICIAL waymark is a *&^%#$ McDonald's. And with so many McDonald's being registered right now a large number of the low numbered WM waypoint names are being taken. peace, fishiam

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Ha! Yes, it is the first official waymark. Kind of a kick in the paradigm, isn't it?

 

Actually it was a test waymark but there you go. It's now in the history books.

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Jeremy, you had a chance to create another interesting site, but after seeing the initial offerings and the suggestions being made, it seems you've only succeeded in making a website devoted to lists. List your favorite McDonalds, your nearest amusement park, Starbucks, etc. Some of the categories and waymarks are interesting and unique. Why not make sure they all are? We had been looking forward to the new Waymarking site, but it seems you threw out all the negative feedback about locationless and virtual listings and welcome them here. We may be totally missing the point of the site, but at least we can rest in the fact that we don't have to visit it.

Before we end, we'll just quote your own words - "So what is Waymarking? While geocaching is a way to place containers in the world for others in the find, the tables are now turned and it is up to you to go out and find unique objects and places around the world." We see the word unique there!

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Jeremy, you had a chance to create another interesting site, but after seeing the initial offerings and the suggestions being made, it seems you've only succeeded in making a website devoted to lists.

(audible sigh)

 

Criticising the site is all well and good, but this topic isn't the place for it. If you have any suggestions on the process how to create new waymark categories, do so. Otherwise, as you said, don't be involved in it at all.

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I'm going to also reinforce that this is the opportunity for you, the premium member (and soon, the registered user), to help define the process now for Waymarking. Yes I am aware that some will complain that they didn't have the opportunity, but we're doing our best to provide enough time to discuss it. I'd rather discuss the process here, not whether Waymarking in general sucks, or if a certain category sucks, or whatever. You'll just have to post somewhere else. K?

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Some waymark categories autopublish listings. Other waymark categories require the category manager to publish it.

In that case, how do we contact the manager? Perhaps this has been discussed or is, in fact, in the FAQ, but I can't find it. Shouldn't there be a link to the category manager that would allow us to propose an idea? I have an idea for a Sculpture sub-category.

 

For what it is worth, I like this general idea.

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Some waymark categories autopublish listings. Other waymark categories require the category manager to publish it.

In that case, how do we contact the manager? Perhaps this has been discussed or is, in fact, in the FAQ, but I can't find it. Shouldn't there be a link to the category manager that would allow us to propose an idea? I have an idea for a Sculpture sub-category.

 

For what it is worth, I like this general idea.

Or is the fact that there *is* no manager listed an invitation to volunteer to be the manager?

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I keep seeing this recommendation for a sub-category. There is no such thing as a proposed sub-category per se. When you make a request for a new waymark category you do just that - Ask for a waymark category to be created and you become the manager.

 

For example, my wife really enjoys factory tours. So I suggest the waymark category "Factory Tours" and put it through this process. If it goes past 2/3 rule (and possibly, as suggested, passes the veto rights of Groundspeak), it gets listed and the category is transferred. At that point it will be Groundspeak's role to put it in the taxonomy of the site, though suggestions as to where this goes is welcome.

 

What many folks are asking for in the way of a subcategory is really a waymark variable. For example, a type of blog is an option for the blogger category. With these variables you can further filter out information within that waymark category. They are not broken out into subcategories of Personal, War, etc. blogs.

 

The process outlined above helps better define the waymark category, which is turning out to be a good idea. It also makes sure the waymark category manager really wants to manage this category or if it is just a whim. From there the category can be further upgraded/downgraded to fit within a certain threshold. For a good example the McDonalds category has been severely downgraded and shouldn't show up in the directory unless you decide to show them all. This is illustrating that even categories that are listed can possibly be downgraded to obscurity.

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So to create a new waymark / category you must first propose it in this forum first?

 

Can I propose the following:

 

- Wayside Rest Areas (we all need to know where these are!)

- Barns (a rare specimen and a dying breed of buildngs in today's world)

- Islands (big & small, freshwater & ocean)

- Gas Stations (important for those caching in remote or unfamiliar areas)

 

;)

So how long does this take when a request is made (see above) ?

 

*When you make a request for a new waymark category you do just that - Ask for a waymark category to be created and you become the manager.*

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In that case, how do we contact the manager?  Perhaps this has been discussed or is, in fact, in the FAQ, but I can't find it.  Shouldn't there be a link to the category manager that would allow us to propose an idea?  I have an idea for a Sculpture sub-category.

to find the manager of the category, at the top of the category is a "managed by" link.

Edited by robert

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In that case, how do we contact the manager?  Perhaps this has been discussed or is, in fact, in the FAQ, but I can't find it.  Shouldn't there be a link to the category manager that would allow us to propose an idea?  I have an idea for a Sculpture sub-category.

to find the manager of the category, at the top of the category is a "managed by" link.

Only the Sub-categories have managers....not the main category

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So how long does this take when a request is made (see above) ?

 

*When you make a request for a new waymark category you do just that - Ask for a waymark category to be created and you become the manager.*

Did you read the first post? We tentatively outlined the process in the first post.

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I keep seeing this recommendation for a sub-category. There is no such thing as a proposed sub-category per se.

...

What many folks are asking for in the way of a subcategory is really a waymark variable. For example, a type of blog is an option for the blogger category. With these variables you can further filter out information within that waymark category. They are not broken out into subcategories of Personal, War, etc. blogs.

Now I am more confused.

 

So, from the examples that exist today, we have the subcategory for "McDonalds" under the Category "Restaurant".

 

How do we create the subcategory "Burger King"?

 

***I am NOT recommending that, I am using it as an example***

 

Do we follow the same steps for a new subcategory as the category? Do we speak to the category owner?

 

I could see someone wanting to manage "Burger Kings", but not "Carl's JR" because they don't care about those. Or, does the "Restaurant" category manager have to manage all of them?

 

Help me out here, please...

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So how long does this take when a request is made (see above) ?

 

*When you make a request for a new waymark category you do just that - Ask for a waymark category to be created and you become the manager.*

Did you read the first post? We tentatively outlined the process in the first post.

OK, I think I get it, now. As you as you used the term taxonomy (a very useful term from my Field Botany days ;)), I got the picture. Now to figure out this voting thing ;)

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How do we create the subcategory "Burger King"?

 

***I am NOT recommending that, I am using it as an example***

 

I could see someone wanting to manage "Burger Kings", but not "Carl's JR" because they don't care about those. Or, does the "Restaurant" category manager have to manage all of them?

 

Help me out here, please...

Ah. I get you. Right now there are two types of waymark categories - those that accept waymarks and those that do not.

 

A waymark category that does not accept categories is like a folder for waymark categories. Someone may own them but they are all owned by Groundspeak staff. There won't be a waymark category that accepts waymarks and also accepts subcategories.

 

So you would just ask to manage Burger Kings and we would stick it under Restaurants. In the future when there are more categories we'll probably add "Fast Food" as a subcategory under "Restaurants" but when a category has just a few waymark categories there is no need to build it out.

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Thanks, Jeremy. That really helps. I was getting all hung up on the terms everyone used.

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Where's the vote? turn on the poll feature in this forum for it. I;'ll be voting no a lot. This is turning in one day to what was wrong with LC before. Let's log dandelions.

 

What I don't like is that there is no verification. Most of the LC needed a picture. I think I'll look up al the starbucks in my area, get the coords from a web site that does address-to- coords and log them all without ever setting foot in one.

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what about moving a sub category to another category or splitting up a subcategory into more subcategories after sevral waymarks have been added. will the mameger of the category be responsible for the new subcategories.

or will a maneger be able to split a category into subcategories himself.

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When the process has been determined we'll set up a polling location for a category recommendation. We're also planning on automating this process outside of the forums after we determine what this process is.

 

As I mentioned before, this is a process discussion not a question and answer session. Nothing is hard set in stone yet.

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I can totally see the attraction of an all-automated category creation process... no waiting! Instant gratification! But I wouldn't want to see the Waymarking categories suddenly overwhelmed by endless variations on a theme (green rocks! red rocks! rocks on beaches! rocks in yards! boring rocks!), for one possibility. Also, the current lack of categories (there's really not that many) is kind of daunting to me- with so few examples, I'm not sure what to call a category. I have a virtual cache I tried to get approved (little knowing what was going on behind the scenes!) and so now I'd love to make it a waymarky thing instead, but there's no category it seems to fit into, and I'm not sure what category I'd WANT to fit it into.

 

Maybe I just lack imagination. :P

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I would like to submit the following catagories for listing.

 

1. Parks: State parks, City parks, County Parks, Amusment Parks, Water Parks, Commemorative Parks, etc.

2. Golf Courses/ Putt Putt Golf, Disc Golf.

3. Churches

4. Sporting Goods Stores: Bass Pro Shop, Cabela's, Gander Mountain, etc.

5. Cemeteries

6. Bowling Alleys

7. Football Stadiums: Pro, College, HS, etc.

8. Water Slides

9. Water Falls

10. Fairs: City Fair, County Fair, State Fair

11. Festivals

12. Ferries

13. Tractor Dealerships

14. Plantation Homes

15. Zoos

16. Aviation Museums

17. Baseball Stadiums: Pro, College, HS, City, etc.

18. Public Access Beaches

19. Police Departments

20. Fire Departments

21. Statues

22. Observation lookouts

23. Hospitals

24. Factory outlet Stores

25. Seafood Markets/ Stands

26. Bar-B-Que Resturants

27. Rodeo Arenas

28. Race/ Speed ways: Nascar, 1/4 mile, dirt track

29. Court Houses: old & new

30. City Halls

31. Theaters: Drive inns, Broadway, Classical, Modern, etc

32. Ghost Towns

33. Colleges/ Universities

 

I would like to have all of these catagories. I think they would make great waymarks. I also have the time to keep up with them all too. :P

 

Thanx - BayouBug :P

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Artemis directed me to this site for oddities... Have you considered 50's style Drive-Ins? There are still a handful around the nation that have 50's sock hops or are just as they are from back in the day!! :P Good eats!!

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What many folks are asking for in the way of a subcategory is really a waymark variable. For example, a type of blog is an option for the blogger category. With these variables you can further filter out information within that waymark category. They are not broken out into subcategories of Personal, War, etc. blogs.

 

The process outlined above helps better define the waymark category, which is turning out to be a good idea. It also makes sure the waymark category manager really wants to manage this category or if it is just a whim. From there the category can be further upgraded/downgraded to fit within a certain threshold. For a good example the McDonalds category has been severely downgraded and shouldn't show up in the directory unless you decide to show them all. This is illustrating that even categories that are listed can possibly be downgraded to obscurity.

 

I'm not sure I understand the "upgraded/downgraded" part. In the log everyone can vote on the "quality" of the waymark. Fine. We can sort by those reviews? Now can we also sort by the number of logs during a given period so that we can eliminate those that people aren't interested enough in to even log? I add during a period so that a transferred locationless with 2000 logs doesn't swamp a one week old waymark with 100 logs. But then how do we differentiate between a waymark in Manhattan with 10/day and even more interesting one in Kansas with 1/month? But then does 5 reviews voting 5 in a year mean people like this one better than a 3 average for 1000 logs during the same period? Or does it mean that 5 kids decided to vote each other's waymarks while everyone else thought they were too bogus to even bother with? Can we add a vote of 0 for "I came. I saw. I was bored and didn't bother."

 

I'm glad this is your problem and not mine. :P

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If there is a rating system for the categories, why do they need to be screened before being posted? Why couldn't one just create a category then let it rise or sink? I get the idea that a waymark should be unique. I'm not going to be seeking out every McDonalds. But, on the other hand, a list of waypoints of McDonalds might be useful if I'm traveling and want to rent a movie. My concern is that if categories have to have a consensus, and be voted on, then mundane (but useful) categories would not get approved. If we can filter by the rating, then if I'm after unique places, I could use that function, but if I just wanted to load something useful, I could just scroll through the categories.

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If there is a rating system for the categories, why do they need to be screened before being posted?

It's more of a peer review. Someone says "What's the Time" as the suggestion but really means "clock towers." Someone recommends they change it to "clock towers." Attributes for the waymark category are suggested and refined (height of clock? date built? digital or analog?). Possible location within the directory is suggested (Things - Structures - Clock Towers).

 

Another is listed and someone says it duplicates an existing one.

 

Without a peer review you get 10 McDonalds Restaurants waymark categories, most of which do not have any realistic variables. People get confused as to which one to mark.

 

That, in essence, is why we're trying to sort it out.

Edited by Jeremy

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I'm not sure I understand the "upgraded/downgraded" part.

Check out the FAQ on the Waymarking site. The upgrade/downgrade is for categories, not waymarks. Waymark categories can have ratings or not, depending on the decision of the waymark category owner.

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When will our category suggestion be voted on?

Did you read the post pinned to the top of that forum?

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It's more of a peer review. Someone says "What's the Time" as the suggestion but really means "clock towers." Someone recommends they change it to "clock towers." Attributes for the waymark category are suggested and refined (height of clock? date built? digital or analog?). Possible location within the directory is suggested (Things - Structures - Clock Towers).

 

Another is listed and someone says it duplicates an existing one.

 

Without a peer review you get 10 McDonalds Restaurants waymark categories, most of which do not have any realistic variables. People get confused as to which one to mark.

 

That, in essence, is why we're trying to sort it out.

OK, now I understand that. But some people are going to be voting on whether they think the idea is 'stupid' or not. Judging from the number of people on gc.com that hate a particular type of hide, I think you'd be hard-pressed to get 2/3 of people to say they like a category, i.e. vote to approve it as a new category. Would be interesting to see if it works though.

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We're definitely open to other suggestions. I would like to make the process really clear, however, so it is as fair as it can be. Perhaps for the first go-around we loosen the majority vote to over 1/2 and raise it after a while to 2/3. I do like the idea of Groundspeak having a veto during the new category process (at least for now).

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When will our category suggestion be voted on?

Did you read the post pinned to the top of that forum?

Yes, I have spent a few hours reading and rereading all of the post. I thought that this was the thread that we were to list suggestions for categories. Who's compiling a list of all the suggestions to be voted on?

 

What if we were to have a category ballot. All of the suggestions were compiled then condensed, then voted on. I would be happy to take all the suggestions and compile them into a list.

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