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Jeremy

Creating New Waymark Categories

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Nevermind, won't let me edit it, guess I let it sit for too long...just reposting the category proposal part, because that is all that has changed.

 

Category Proposal

1) When a premium member has an idea for a category they first read the rules on proposing a new category. These include all the different opinions, and regulations, etc. They then navigate to the area in the directory they believe their category should be placed. On the right of the website where it says category options there would be an option to propose a new category.

2) The member will click this link and fill out all the necessary info. (Name, description, etc.)

3) The member will also fill in what interest areas that this category fulfills. A message will be sent to other members who meet these interests. The will be invited to join as leaders. The category maker must approve each leader.

4) Once the “magic” number of leaders is met (4,5,6??) the category will be listed in a special directory named “Proposed Categories” that only premium members can access. (for now)

5) Other members will be able to browse the proposed categories, and each category will be required to go through a week of discussion. Members can post directly to the page, maybe even having different types of post. (Recommend directory path change, Recommend name change, etc.) Hopefully through this discussion the category will be molded into a nicely organized category, with rules and guidelines applicable to the individual case.

6) After the week, the post will automatically be converted so it can be voted on. Users can vote once per category and the votes are anonymous…so we don’t have any fights or anything. Voting will last a week, or for longer if the 20 votes are not met. 2/3 of the votes are needed to pass.

7) If the category passes it disappears from everyone accept the owner. It then must be approved by Groundspeak (much like geocaches) and once done, Groundspeak will post it.

8) If the category fails it disappears and there is a 3 month waiting period until it can be posted again.

9) After passing the “veto” a message will be sent to the owner of the category and it is listed!

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I would like to be more involved in the "design" process, but unfortunately don't have the time to check the forums on a daily basis. My question is simple: When the rules are finalized, and Jeremy actually starts accepting new categories, will a link be posted on the Waymarking homepage to the rules/procedure? I have been adding some to the discussions, but as mentioned cannot check the boards daily.

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In order to avoid this issue of "overlapping categories" and things like that, maybe some sort of "20 questions" system could be established (either for searching or for trying to determine if a new category is necessary). There are many automated "20 questions" programs out there now-a-days. The idea is simply that with 20 yes/no questions, I can force the object that you are thinking of into a specific category (if not actually divine what you're thinking of from the dichotomous key that my questions create). Mathematically, 20 yes/no questions (2 choices) gives you 2^20 (a bit more than 1 million) final categories. There just aren't too much more than a million "things" to think up to try and fool the questions...and likewise, I doubt there will be more than 1 million categories here any time soon. (n.b. nothing says that it has to be yes/no questions meaning the number of end categories is pretty endless)

 

It'd be interesting if I came here and said..."i think there should be a category for 'off-leash dog parks'". Then I start a 20Q search and end up seeing that there is no off-leash dog park category and submit that one should be created (and all that that process will entail...no pun intended).

 

Here's a fun 20Q site to see what I mean:

 

http://www.20q.net

 

The best part is that as people use it, it grows in its ability to classify things as well as have an answer ready for next time (if you don't find what you are looking for, then it creates a new category that it knows something about and puts a link to the category-creation-discussion for the next interested person to be directed to).

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Not necessarily. There seems to be a false assumption that categories will have to be exclusive. It is inevitable that there will be some overlapping between categories.

 

Assumptions are a terrible thing. Is it wrong to assume waymarks cannot be cross-listed in multiple categories? Could the categories be set to allow one waymark to be shown in more than one category?

 

As we start linking waymarks to each other (like a coffee shop + wifi hotspot) it won't be a huge deal to point out the same thing twice - it'll just be additional information about a location for the user to read.

 

Using this example, the one waymark could be shown in both the Coffee Shop category and the WIFI category. Posting/logging this would show as 1 log. (Of course this would require more backend work for the developers.)

 

PS. Forgive me if this has already been brought up and I missed that discussion.

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Using this example, the one waymark could be shown in both the Coffee Shop category and the WIFI category. Posting/logging this would show as 1 log. (Of course this would require more backend work for the developers.)

Why? If i just go for coffee and don't use the wifi...then why would I log a visit to this as a wifi spot?

 

It's not a problem if waymark X is a member of group A and group B independently.

 

What is a problem is the eventuality that a category is suggested that is really a sub-category of something that already exists (or is itself a greater category of something that exists). Example being:

 

"Landlocked Lighthouses" exists. It is narrowly defined as lighthouses that you can't see navigable water from.

 

Someone wants to make a "Lighthouses" category to get all lighthouses. Now you have to decide how to insert that above Landlocked Lighthouses. Can subcategories that are not limbs (aka middle branches) have waypoints as well in the current directory structure? At this point as far as I can tell, I can't create a "Building" waymark, even though "Building" is a subcategory of Places. It wouldn't make sense to have Places>Buildings>Lighthouses side-by-side with Places>Buildings>Landlocked Lighthouses...one is inclusive of the other in totality. If a user is interested in all of a broad enough category, he should never have to look for all instances of it in a heirarchical tree.

 

Another problem is when a potential sub-category insertion like that example introduces a manager that doesn't agree with the representative waypoints of a potential sub-category below it. Let's pretend "Landlocked Lighthouses" allows a waymark for a light-colored house in Kansas on a whim. The Lighthouse manager doesn't agree. What say has he? He *is* the manager of all the waypoints under him, right? He controls "Lighthouses" even if they've been more specifically categorized. Maybe this is one of the benefits of a "group" effort management..I don't know.

 

All of the ontologies that I'm involved in at work are usually coordinated by one group of people and community input helps determine necessary changes as well as the community's adoption ends up signalling some sort of standarization of it. Not necessarily the best idea for something on this sort of order but to some degree institutional control definitely keeps things from getting hairy.

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Someone wants to make a "Lighthouses" category to get all lighthouses. Now you have to decide how to insert that above Landlocked Lighthouses. Can subcategories that are not limbs (aka middle branches) have waypoints as well in the current directory structure?

We anticipated this problem and decided it was best not to have a category that accepts waymarks underneath a category that also accepts waymarks. Think of the current way as a folder structure with files in them. These files are waymark projects, if you will.

 

The scenario of landlocked lighthouses and lighthouses already exists, although for some reason the current locationless/waymark category owner has chosen not to make it active. In this scenario they live side-by-side and one is called "All Lighthouses" and the other one is called "LandLocked Lighthouses." Technically there could also be "Retired Lighthouses," "Lighthouses in service," etc. There could be duplications of data for all of these categories. But they all sit in one subheading that could be Buildings. Or, if there are enough lighthouses, then a major heading of "Lighthouses" could be created.

 

Is there a problem with that? Not really, as long as there are links between similar waymarks. This would create a page that contains all information about that location even if they fit in different categories. It would be like how the "see also" concept works in dictionaries.

 

I like the 20 questions idea. It would be a unique way to drill down to the person, place, or thing you want.

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Assumptions are a terrible thing. Is it wrong to assume waymarks cannot be cross-listed in multiple categories?

Yes. A change purse and a wallet can both contain coins.

 

Could the categories be set to allow one waymark to be shown in more than one category?

 

That isn't a good way to look at it. Two separate waymarks may contain different variables but yes, they could be linked so the person browsing the site can have access to both waymark data.

 

Using this example, the one waymark could be shown in both the Coffee Shop category and the WIFI category. Posting/logging this would show as 1 log. (Of course this would require more backend work for the developers.)

 

I agree with Ju99l3r. You may drink coffee but not use the Wifi location. I don't know why you'd need to log every lighthouse waymark but I suppose you could if you wanted.

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I like idea, but one thing I had difficulty with in locationless was why there wasn't a standard log method, for instance City, State, then coords and then log comments, so the first thing spotted would be the City. Just a thought

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I agree with Ju99l3r.

That's good, but I seem to have missed his post.

 

B)

 

(that's Ju66l3r with 2 G's not backwards P's)

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(that's Ju66l3r with 2 G's not backwards P's)

That's intentional. I made them lowercase g's

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I absolutely love it! Love the idea! Love the site! Unfortunately, none in my area.

That's kind of the idea. It's up to you to find them :lol:

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One major category I'd like to see is Space Science places for places like the NASA Space Centers, space exploration history sites (astronaut training sites, air and space museums), observatories, etc.

 

Also, I'm thinking some kind of Places-Art-Art Walks type of categorization -- my town has a lot of galleries and art studios. Every first Friday of the month, there's an art walk - the galleries keep their doors open late, and there's various other related activities that take advantage of the monthly event.

 

deborah

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I would like to submit the following catagories for listing.

 

1.  Parks: State parks, City parks, County Parks, Amusment Parks, Water Parks, Commemorative Parks, etc.

2.  Golf Courses/ Putt Putt Golf, Disc Golf.

3.  Churches

4.  Sporting Goods Stores: Bass Pro Shop, Cabela's, Gander Mountain, etc.

5.  Cemeteries

6.  Bowling Alleys

7.  Football Stadiums: Pro, College, HS, etc.

8.  Water Slides

9.  Water Falls

10. Fairs: City Fair, County Fair, State Fair

11. Festivals

12. Ferries

13. Tractor Dealerships

14. Plantation Homes

15. Zoos

16. Aviation Museums

17. Baseball Stadiums: Pro, College, HS, City, etc.

18. Public Access Beaches

19. Police Departments

20. Fire Departments

21. Statues

22. Observation lookouts

23. Hospitals

24. Factory outlet Stores

25. Seafood Markets/ Stands

26. Bar-B-Que Resturants

27. Rodeo Arenas

28. Race/ Speed ways: Nascar, 1/4 mile, dirt track

29. Court Houses: old & new

30. City Halls

31. Theaters: Drive inns, Broadway, Classical, Modern, etc

32. Ghost Towns

33. Colleges/ Universities

 

I would like to have all of these catagories. I think they would make great waymarks. I also have the time to keep up with them all too.  :ph34r:

 

Thanx -  :D

BayouBug,

 

At least you put some thought into this, here is my thoughts on your suggestions.

 

#1 - there are more places in this world then the USA. Open up a bit! Add Provinces and dump commercial outlets.

 

#2 - dump commercial outlets

 

#3 - Im not sure if this is a good subject

 

#4 - dump commercial outlets

 

#5 - Could be very good!

 

#6 - dump commercial outlets

 

#7 - some merrit

 

#8 - dump commercial outlets

 

#9 - some merrit

 

#10 - dump commercial outlets (Mountain Man's opinion - not mine)

 

#11 - some merrit - dump commercial outlets

 

#12 - Not sure if this will work

 

#13 - dump commercial outlets

 

#14 - Huh? Perhaps

 

#15 - Maybe

 

#16 - I like it

 

#17 - Limited, not a truely international thing

 

#18 - Might work

 

#19 - Might work - include photo of badge or former badge

 

#20 - Might work - include photo of badge or former badge

 

#21 - Could be interesting

 

#22 - This one could be hard to control

 

#23 - Why????

 

#24 - dump commercial outlets

 

#25 - dump commercial outlets - refine - might work someway

 

#26 - Too Limited and dump commercial outlets

 

#27 - Might have merrit

 

#28 - Might have merrit

 

#29 - Include 29 to 33 and make each a sub....there are a number of others as well

 

Please, everyone, think outside your world... this is truely global

Edited by Pier 320

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I agree that ALL commercial locations should be excluded, but that's only one persons opinion.

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Well, I understand why people say things like "dump the commercial"

 

But... this is not Geocaching.

 

This seems to be presented as more of a locating service, or point of interest identification.

 

It's only commerical if people are instructed to "Go into the location and spend money"

 

Simply going to a movie theater or restaurant in and of itself is not commercial.

 

It is not easy to think of Waymarking in terms other than Geocaching, but the point of Waymarking is not the same as Geocaching.

 

The 'commercial locations' has its place here too. As long as you can log your visit without incuring expenses then I see it as no foul.

 

:ph34r: The Blue Quasar

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The 'commercial locations' has its place here too. As long as you can log your visit without incuring expenses then I see it as no foul.

 

I personally think that SOME commercial locations belong, even if visiting them incurs expense.

 

I am thinking of zoos, galleries, historical places that charge admission etc. As long as the fact that the visit will cost is pointed out, it can be a good place to check for places to go for a day out.

 

The only issue I see is that the "yellow pages" aspect of these will detract from the "game" aspect of other waymarks, where the waymark is what is now a virtual or locationless cache. The visiting of these waymarks can be quite challenging, and some people rightly pride themselves on the "score" they get for achieving the objective.

 

If these can be somehow seperated, I think that the site would really take off, and the statistics would be meaningful to those who care (which, lets face it, is most of us).

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Couple of comments....

 

I don't think every category *needs* group management. As has already been stated, not all categories do/are going to require proof of visit to a given waymark for it to be listed.

 

For example, I proposed off leash dog parks be a category. If I were the manager of said category, I would probably 'auto-list' the waymarks people published, as I am not in a position (and neither is anybody is the position) to verify if each and every place listed is an allowable 'off-leash' area.

 

As a category owner though, I need to keep an eye on SBA logs on waymarks in my category though to make sure that they actually exist. Also need the ability to put waymarks from given users who may have abused the auto-listing in to a 'holding cell' for further review.

 

If a given number of SBA logs accumulated, or went unresponded to for a specified length of time, I could be notified about 'group management' options, and how they can help. After a different, longer length of time, I could be warned that if no action is taken by me, my category will go up for adoption (and an option to put it up for adoption right then), after some longer period, my category would go up for adoption, with priority given to the person within my cateogory with the most logged waymarks in that category (as they obviously have an interest in it).

 

In a case where the owner requires a 'proof of visit' picture, and waymarks can't be 'auto-listed', the situation could be similar but different.

 

If the 'queue of things that require an action' reaches a certain size, I get a notification about 'group management' etc, etc, etc.

 

If I'm going on vacation, I could designate a substitute manager in my place for the period of time I'm going to be away.

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Please, everyone, think outside your world... this is truely global

I would agree that this is a global game; however, there is nothing wrong with having categories or subcategories that are localized. This makes the whole Waymarking game more interesting. Just because you don't know what a Plantation home is doesn't mean that they should be left out. Platation Homes are a surreal part of the southern U.S. They are land marks of what was the business empire of the south.

 

You may not have Platation Homes where you live but you have somthing similar that is local to your area. It may be a castle or a hand laid stonewalls. Having catergories such as these will help people discover things that are new and interesting.

 

You cannot "dump the commercial". Some of these have interesting qualities as well. I agree there are some locations that are mundane, but dumping them would take away from the intent of Waymarking. I would have to say dump a category call "Frog Poop" but a category called "Frog Ponds" or "Goldfish Ponds" would be interesting enough to list.

 

Have you ever been to the "Mall of America" in Minneapolis? This is a commercial location yet it has a large amusment park that lay at its center. It also has some very interesting shops and eateries. Have you ever eaten fresh cheese curds? Some people don't know what they are yet they are very delicious. Cheese curds are localized to MN, WI and a few other places. It's just like maple syrup being famous to VT and NH areas. You just can't dump commercial.

 

The catergories that I listed are just a few of my interest. I have more ideas just as others do. I want to see Waymarking work, and I am going to try to help out.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate constructive criticism but it seems as if you are just trying to spin your wheels. Critics have something to say about everything yet you have made your issue with a list that I put together. Don't be cynical unless you are going to be critic to all who have suggested categories. If you don't like something that has been suggested then good. This is not the place to vote on what you like or dislike.

 

Let's be productive not destructive. :D

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Please, everyone, think outside your world... this is truely global

I would agree that this is a global game; however, there is nothing wrong with having categories or subcategories that are localized.

This is true. The clarification on localized is creating artificial borders around a concept. If a well defined waymark category can be found in a different region there is no reason why it shouldn't be logged in that category. Using a super easy (but obviously poor category) would be rock locations - adding a "Rock locations in Washington" wouldn't make sense. This is why Pennsylvania Historic Markers makes sense since they are specially made by the PA government and the characteristics can be different compared to other historical signs.

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I like the idea of waymarks but foresee the problems that peoples ideas of ‘quality’ waymarks will be different. Hence there needs to be a check list or agreement of what constitutes a waymark.

 

I think that commercial properties or businesses should not be a waymark, as this could then lead to the website just becoming an advertising site.

 

My first example is that a restaurant should not be a waypoint but a particular feature or meal in a restaurant could.

 

A second example would be a pub or bar could not be a waypoint but a particular drink, an entertainment event, or particular feature could.

 

I also think that some GPS already give us lists of restaurants, petrol stations, sites of interest etc, so if we develop a list of these aren’t we duplicating what is already out there. And if we are why aren’t the big multi national companies paying for it?

 

Just my pennies worth

Edited by David & Di

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We've been working through these challenges, both for category creation and maintainence, and have determined that there needs to be a group that manages a category - not just one person.

 

It seems that if someone is in support for the category - not just someone who things it is cool - should be able to take an active role into shaping that category.

 

Also big question has come up - What happens when the manager goes on vacation or decides to quit?

 

If you're familiar with how guilds work in online games (World of Warcraft comes to mind), a group has a leader and officers which have the ability to review and publish waymarks. The leader can invite new members into the group and delegate abilities to them. It mirrors how the reviewers work with Groundspeak to publish caches. We would have a similar guild concept on Waymarking (and eventually Geocaching) to allow a larger group to manage each category.

 

Anyway, we still have to entirely flesh out the concept but part of it will be implementing a team proposal for a category instead of an individual proposal. It will involve attaining a quorum for a concept and submitting it for users to support or deny. Instead of a pure 2/3 majority instead the final no would come from Groundspeak based on any glaring "no" comments by the voting process.

 

We're still working it through but you are free to pick apart what we've come up so far.

I've been thinking about the "groups" concept for waymark category management and wanted to add my views. This comes from the perspective of a volunteer cache reviewer (although these are my personal opinions) and as the manager of four of the "starter" waymark categories, two of which have taken off quite nicely.

 

I am in favor of groups, rather than individual management. As a cache reviewer, it is often burdensome to keep up with the new geocache submissions when I also want to take a three-day weekend to go attend a geocaching event in another state, away from the computer. The reviewers arrange for backup support in these cases. The analysis is no different for a waymark category manager who takes a one-week trip to the Caribbean and has no internet access to check for new waymarks needing approval.

 

Similarly, I think waymark submission volume will grow just like geocache submissions have grown. I've seen the volunteer cache reviewer group triple in size since I joined the group in Spring 2003. I've split off pieces of my own territory twice, handing them off to new reviewers, because the volume of new caches in my original territory got too high for me to provide good service. If I start seeing 20 new Iron Furnace Ruin submissions each week, I will want help with managing that waymark category.

 

I am not in favor of requiring that a charter group of category managers must be in place before a new waymark category can be proposed (although it could be). If I have an idea that I think is terrific, I ought to be able to propose it in the structure defined by the initial post to this thread. If everyone thinks it stinks, it goes away. If lots of people like it, then presumably two or three people who *really* like it will volunteer to help manage the category with me. So long as a manager group is assembled as a prerequisite for a category poll approval vote, that should be sufficient.

 

Another reason why the management group ought to be permitted to get put together along the way in the initial discussion is that I may not know who will share my interest in a particular idea. In my Pennsylvania Historic Markers category, one person in northeast Pennsylvania has been responsible for the vast majority of the early submissions, and she's also organized her submissions in a manner that I plan on adopting for the whole category. I am familiar with her as a geocacher with a great reputation, although we've never met and we aren't "friends." I had no idea that she would be the person to pick up the ball and run with my category. Now that I know that she shares my interest in history, I will want to make her a co-manager, with responsibility for the part of the state that she knows. Later on I will want to add people from other parts of the state.

 

I don't see the "groups" concept so much as "management by bureaucratic committee" as it is "sharing the work and sharing the fun." Participating in a manager group is a great way for people with common interests to have fun with a hobby, and to make new friends.

Edited by The Leprechauns

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I am not in favor of requiring that a charter group of category managers must be in place before a new waymark category can be proposed (although it could be).  If I have an idea that I think is terrific, I ought to be able to propose it in the structure defined by the initial post to this thread.  If everyone thinks it stinks, it goes away.  If lots of people like it, then presumably two or three people who *really* like it will volunteer to help manage the category with me.  So long as a manager group is assembled as a prerequisite for a category poll approval vote, that should be sufficient.

I am also not in favor of requiring a group should be in place before a category is created. However I do think it may have to be a necessary evil to ensure that there is adequate support for a category before it is listed - and moreso it makes sure that someone should do some up front work before a category is created and the person put in a management position.

 

Why? Because if there is no effort involved to get a category started there will be a lot of good submissions grabbed by people who aren't responsible enough (or interested enough) to help them grow. However I am at a loss as to determining the best way to determine whether someone truly wants to manage a category or just get dibs on it and blow the category. I'm opening to alternative suggestions.

 

(Obviously PMs have some kind of investment in the concept - but there needs to be something more, IMO)

Edited by Jeremy

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best way to determine whether someone truly wants to manage a category or just get dibs on it and blow the category.

Require a security deposit, to be refunded after a couple years if no problems? :blink:

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I see your point about showing some commitment by assembling a group to manage a category. But wouldn't it be human nature for me or anyone else to choose three of my existing friends as the co-managers? I am not going to seek out a complete stranger in another country to manage the international aspects of my category idea. If I need a warm body I will ask mtn-man because he's my buddy. But the waymark category suffers because Waymarker X in England (who I don't know) happens to be an expert in the subject area, and would've been the ideal co-manager. Instead the category is stuck with mtn-man, who only said yes because I asked him. And I've lost out on the opportunity to learn lots of stuff from this bloke in the UK, and to make a new friend, because I'm stubborn and I will stick with my initial choice of friends.

Edited by The Leprechauns

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Wow, Pages and Page of opinions, thoughts, comments, and excellent ideas.

 

Jeremy has a big job trying to make a great site and keep everyone happy. Not always possible to do both. Its good the doors are closed for a bit to maintain control. Geocaching started small, but now that there is a large base of users. Great care and control is needed to keep such new concepts from quickly going out of control.

 

From going through the categories and seeing the comments, it appears flexibility is in itself both the advantage, and the big disadvantage.

 

I want a group for New Jersey Historical Markers and it seems to fit in logically. But that is my opinon. There may (and will) be unending amounts of opinions about categories and groupings, and they will change daily. What is logical or valid, is hard to control or define in a totally open environment.

 

Generally, committees make suggestions and leaders must make decisions for overall good.

 

Please consider only defined categories and subs be pre-defined for now. Controlling the growth is mandatory. Use 'opinions and suggestions' to form the ideas and concepts of the structure, and when sure of the best path, in a pre-defined plan for growth, implement those structures. Gradually, and slowly allow the flexibility and the creativity, as members do have wonderful ideas.

 

Using a Category Outline, slowly add limited new categories to start. Use a parallel structure approach looking at the entire category outline. Being careful that sub areas are not growing out of control, minimizing questionable or less thought-out categories.

 

Offload the responsibilities slowly to management groups under a general plan of acceptance and growth.

 

Some minimum and uniform level of Proofs and validations could be required for logging to minimize free for all logging.

 

Just thinking out loud. Use what you think is useful. I can't wait to participate and use this site to learn about many new and exicting things and places - and already placed my first log. Wishing it great success and that it maintains professionalism.

 

;)

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Somewhere previously (can't locate it right now), a member posted the idea of having PM's list their interests, rating them from 1 to 5, and indicating which ones they would be interested in helping to manage. Then, when a category is approved, the computer would randomly pick four or five members who had expressed an interest in managing such a category. This would preclude Leprechauns problem of picking a friend, and finding out later it was a mistake. The Manager would be randomly assigned four or five assistants who are interested in helping to manage the category. This would benefit in several ways: people selected as assistant managers who have expressed an interest in the category and an interest in helping to manage it; create a group who would (hopefully) not initially know each other well and would therefor be more apt to voice opinions - no concern about hurting a friend's feelings; give all PM's who want to a chance to help manage a category they are interested in. And eventually, I suspect it would help to create many new friendships via the management process.

 

I thought this was a good suggestion then, and I still do.

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This is true. The clarification on localized is creating artificial borders around a concept. If a well defined waymark category can be found in a different region there is no reason why it shouldn't be logged in that category. Using a super easy (but obviously poor category) would be rock locations - adding a "Rock locations in Washington" wouldn't make sense. This is why Pennsylvania Historic Markers makes sense since they are specially made by the PA government and the characteristics can be different compared to other historical signs.

It appears that I have started several topics of discussions (which I consider a good thing). I agree that regional caches can be good, interesting and educational; I am not against the concept.

 

I am against commercial caches; although the idea of comparing something special on the menu sort of interests me. To see who has the best McDonald’s is a pile of @#$%%^&**. I will remain a bit wishy-washy on this idea but willing to listen.

 

I do support the idea of group approvers although how they are selected concerns me. If one person selects who will work with them....I can see problems. This idea should be discussed more...perhaps in its own forum.

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Another problem is to open the PM's out to cachers who havent been in the game as long, but have the interest and desire. It can be evaluated by looking at their stats; asking them point blank; or talking to who they cache with as a starter.

I personally asked to PM one that is currently being managed by someone who might have taken it on becuase no one had stepped up, and it was very much along the lines of my own interests, but no reply.

What i still havent seen is a clean way to advertise a catagory, get the required comments, and actually see it go up on the directory. I did notice some more categories and sub-cats, but never saw how they got there. Some of that has to do with all of the side chats, but maybe the path ahead is being trailblazed by which way we dont want to go...

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The Leprechauns said:

I've lost out on the opportunity to learn lots of stuff from this bloke in the UK, and to make a new friend, because I'm stubborn and I will stick with my initial choice of friends

 

You know, you can learn a lot from letting someone external do something for you. I had to ask a Reviewer from (I think) Pennslyvania or Ohio, I dunno which one, if he/she would be willing to tally the votes for our provincial Geocaching group.

 

I don't know him/her at all. Never talked to them until that point. Why did I pick them??? Because that Reviewer suggested that CCCouparAgency contact me to place a cache on CCC's behalf.

 

Why did that reviewer pick me? I dunno, but I hope it was due to my involvement in the forums.

 

As you can see, it doesn't take much to get the ball rolling... even with people you don't know.

 

So... if you are looking for help with something... instead of sticking with the same group of people again and again... post a note in the Forums as if you are posting a new job.. tell people what you are looking for, and ask them to explain why they would be good to help you with it. You can then evaluate the pool of resourses and make a diverse team to help you, maybe even in ways you didn't consider.

 

Almost like listing a "Locationless Help Wanted"

 

;) The Blue Quasar

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catcher24 said:

Somewhere previously (can't locate it right now), a member posted the idea of having PM's list their interests, rating them from 1 to 5, and indicating which ones they would be interested in helping to manage. Then, when a category is approved, the computer would randomly pick four or five members who had expressed an interest in managing such a category. This would preclude Leprechauns problem of picking a friend, and finding out later it was a mistake. The Manager would be randomly assigned four or five assistants who are interested in helping to manage the category. This would benefit in several ways: people selected as assistant managers who have expressed an interest in the category and an interest in helping to manage it; create a group who would (hopefully) not initially know each other well and would therefor be more apt to voice opinions - no concern about hurting a friend's feelings; give all PM's who want to a chance to help manage a category they are interested in. And eventually, I suspect it would help to create many new friendships via the management process.

 

I thought this was a good suggestion then, and I still do.

 

That would be me... I started off suggesting that to find people for assisting with Waypoint Management that Jeremy could make a form that people wanting to help out cold complete and list five topics of interest. Then this list could be used to identify people that share similar interests. Catagory owners could contact those people and ask for help or input.

 

Jeremy expanded on it by suggesting that the "interest topics" could also be used similar to Watchlists, in that if a new Catagory or Waymark matched key words in your preferrence list, like WATERFALL, then you could get an email saying something like "NEW CATAGORY: Waterfalls" or more specific like "NEW CATAGORY: Cascade or Tiered Waterfalls"

 

I am expanding on the wording from that original posting... it's somewhere in one of my numerous Waymarking Forum posts.

 

;) The Blue Quasar

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I think the team approach to category management is good. I have no problem with working with people I don't know at all - in working on the benchamrk FAQ, I contacted 3 other people I didn't know at all, and we formed a good team.

 

One possiblilty to hedge against the scenario Jeremy mentioned about someone getting dibs on a category and then blowing the category is to actually require a team, or at least make it a significant entry item, before a category is approved.

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B) I think this is going to be fun!! It's already fun.

 

Thank You!! [^] [^] [^]

Edited by Wild Spirit

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I wanted to add a virtual, but missed it prior to waymark taking control. Now, I am looking to setup a waymark for people to visit, but a proper category does not exist. It is a trail in a park. The closest thing to it is mountain bike trails, but no bikes are allowed. So, can I suggest a trail catagory? or do I post a waymark in a 'close' catagory ande the admin will create the proper catagory for it to reside?

 

Tema Adelos

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I think the idea of having someone or something pick category managers and assitant managers is great. I believe it will help build new relationships along with cutting out the chance of cliques forming, thus making a more even playing field for everyone.

 

I know this suggestion is not going to be a popular with some and it's nothing personal, just an observation. Many of our GC cache approvers have been stretched to keep up with the growth of new caches being placed. I think that GC cache approvers be asst. managers so that they wouldn't be stretched beyound what's on their plate all ready. I only suggest this because I don't want to see our approvers headed for burn out. Like I said, it's nothing personal against any of our people.

 

I do think that there should be some limit to how much responsiblity should be given to any one person. For example 1 person could manage up to 5 catergories and help as an asst. manager for up to 10 catergories. This is just a rough number and could be 2/7 or whatever.

 

I also think that the managers and asst. managers should be left to PMs. The exception would be to those who aren't PMs that had virtuals or locationless caches transferred over to Waymarking. By keeping these positions to PMs it helps ensure the commitment level needed for growth. It also prompts the advantages of PMs.

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I might be wrong (ask my wife.. it happens.... often) but I don't think that Jeremy or another of TPTB have actually confirmed that there might be management teams of similar put in place.

 

I think that so far the Catagory Managers (which seem to be Groundspeak employees, Close friends of Groundspeak, and previous Locationless Cache Owners) are currently able to manage their own Catagories on their own.

 

I also think that the idea of teams was a preventive measure for the future growth. There doesn't seem to be a need, but if the existing Catagory Managers are suggesting that it might help them, then it is a good idea to explore

 

Do any of the current Catagory Managers feel they cannot keep on top of their Waymark Catagories?

 

:D The Blue Quasar

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I might be wrong (ask my wife.. it happens.... often) but I don't think that Jeremy or another of TPTB have actually confirmed that there might be management teams of similar put in place.

I think this confirms that there MIGHT be management teams.

 

I think you need to do something to handle situations where vacations or emergencies or waymarkicides would category management problems. Some kind of a team concept seems workable to me.

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I think the official term is "waycide", but yes - high priority right now is creating group functionality to help (betteR) manage waymark categories. We're already getting the "it has passed 72 hours without my waymark being listed" messages and having a category management team makes far more sense in the short term.

 

I do, however, have a few categories that are set to autopublish. It won't be long before people start abusing this feature :D

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The Leprechauns said:
I've lost out on the opportunity to learn lots of stuff from this bloke in the UK, and to make a new friend, because I'm stubborn and I will stick with my initial choice of friends

 

You know, you can learn a lot from letting someone external do something for you. I had to ask a Reviewer from (I think) Pennslyvania or Ohio, I dunno which one, if he/she would be willing to tally the votes for our provincial Geocaching group.

 

I don't know him/her at all. Never talked to them until that point. Why did I pick them??? Because that Reviewer suggested that CCCouparAgency contact me to place a cache on CCC's behalf.

 

Why did that reviewer pick me? I dunno, but I hope it was due to my involvement in the forums.

 

As you can see, it doesn't take much to get the ball rolling... even with people you don't know.

 

So... if you are looking for help with something... instead of sticking with the same group of people again and again... post a note in the Forums as if you are posting a new job.. tell people what you are looking for, and ask them to explain why they would be good to help you with it. You can then evaluate the pool of resourses and make a diverse team to help you, maybe even in ways you didn't consider.

 

Almost like listing a "Locationless Help Wanted"

 

:D The Blue Quasar

What makes this post extremely ironic is that I'm the same person (while wearing my "Keystone" hat) that you chose to help out with your upcoming elections. And yes, I told my friend CCCooper to contact you based on your forum involvement and because the cache reviewers for Eastern Canada speak highly of you.

 

Hey, do you like Iron Furnaces or Landlocked Lighthouses? :D

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I might be wrong (ask my wife.. it happens.... often) but I don't think that Jeremy or another of TPTB have actually confirmed that there might be management teams of similar put in place.

 

I think that so far the Catagory Managers (which seem to be Groundspeak employees, Close friends of Groundspeak, and previous Locationless Cache Owners) are currently able to manage their own Catagories on their own.

 

I also think that the idea of teams was a preventive measure for the future growth.  There doesn't seem to be a need, but if the existing Catagory Managers are suggesting that it might help them, then it is a good idea to explore

 

Do any of the current Catagory Managers feel they cannot keep on top of their Waymark Catagories?

 

:D  The Blue Quasar

Your post and the one before it by Bayou Bug note an interesting point: one of the cool things about Waymarking is that it will take some of the burden off the busy volunteer cache reviewers, who are *very* much looking forward to the day when our workload goes down. We will no longer have to compose long explanatory notes for the 98% of all virtual cache submissions which are archived, nor participate in the resulting forum debates. That heat will now be spread around among many category managers. And volunteer reviewers can nod our heads and smile knowingly while reading the threads asking why it's been 72 hours and a new waymark hasn't yet been approved.

 

So, why would the site volunteers want to be waymark category managers? For me, it's because I like the four categories that I came up with -- they are interests of mine outside of geocaching. I enjoy reading about them, seeing photos, and visiting them. I especially enjoy approving the same targets in my "Pennsylvania Historic Markers" category that I had to archive under the rules for virtual caches! It is far less of a chore to read and approve a new "Iron Furnace Ruin" than it is to explain why a manhole cover in a park cannot be a virtual cache (yes, we had that one within the past few weeks). Someone else may be a huge fan of manhole covers, but I'm not.

 

But the observations about workload are valid. The volume of new geocaches submitted in my review territory is above what Groundspeak defines as "burnout level" and I am getting backup help to keep up with it right now. Therefore, I don't see myself taking on additional Waymarking categories, and I am all in favor of dividing up the work among subject matter experts in each category. As I've posted above, I am all in favor of manager groups and I am expecting I'll quickly need help in my busiest category, Historic Markers.

Edited by The Leprechauns

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I also think that having category management teams is a good idea, for all of the reasons already stated, and likely some others that haven't been thought of yet.

 

BTW, Leprechaun, I'm in New York (Jamestown), but would be happy to help out with Landlocked Lighthouses. Actually, there is one in my county (Chautauqa) that I am just waiting to get a picture of in order to submit.

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I'm opposed to having people vote on categories. We all have different interests. If we fulfill all requirements for creating a new category I can't see why we need a majority of people to like it. Say I want "Mormon churches" or "body piercing studios". Why should others be able to pass judgement on what I'm interested in?

 

If you don't like a category, plan not to log any waymarks in that category, or better yet, ignore it completely.

 

Some people are going to want to log everything within walking distance (and then driving distance) from where they live. That will be the sport for them.

Others will concentrate on specific categories. They can set a more refined personal goal.

 

I don't see what the problem is here. Are people afraid that others are going to get a "higher score" than them by logging francises? Are they truely worried about low digit waymark numbers as one suggested? That seems utterly ridiculous to me.

 

Is the problem server space or person hours? I can see how it would be difficult for staff if they needed to deal with each of the logs but if each categories is managed by its own creator/volunteer it should be no more difficult to create a category for a unique item than a francise for example. Indeed there would already be a template for the francise and it would therefore be less work.

 

One potential problem I forsee is that some people will want to take over categories that they beleive are being mismanaged. For example, in a rush to get as many categories as they can some people will register things they don't really have a passion for. As the volunteer work (and it will be work people!) gets monotonous they will begin to slack. Then along comes someone fresh but the first person won't want to relinquish their category out of pride.

 

Ok, my tuppence has compounded. Thanks to everyone who has put time and thought into this.

 

[edit]

Ha! as soon as I hit the submit button I started seeing all the new posts above mine. I realized I had only read the first of four pages! Sorry if some of my observations are redundant by now.

Edited by vycache

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dump the commercial

 

This seems to be one of the biggest controversies on the forum. I haven't read all four daunting pages yet but has anyone suggested making a fourth major category?

 

People, Places, Things, Businesses

 

It is true that there are restaurant guides and such out there already but because they are commercial only those businesses that can afford to advertise will be listed. I would not suggest leaving anything out.

 

The worst that could happen is that this site becomes such a comprehensive guide that Jermy and the crew get bought out and make a fortune with all the information they have compiled.

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Woohoo! Wow you thought through that now didn't you.

 

Where do these fit?

 

1. Factory Tours

2. Zoos

3. Bookcrossing Zones

4. Drive-In Movie Theaters

5. Amusement Parks

6. Berry picking locations

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Okay, I've just read all 4 pages of this and have some ideas / suggestions to the situation.

 

I'm a proponent of the single category manager approach with a group twist. Say I suggest a category named "balls of lint", which makes me the category manager. Now others can join the membership of this "category" in a few ways: by voluntarily joining the category group or by placing a waypoint in this category. By doing this, now the category is also a group of people with the same interest, and perhaps foster this with a discussion area or something? Now to distribute the load, the category manager can hold an internal election so to speak for extra reviewer positions or whatever else is needed. Now you're probably asking "What happens if the category owner is a bum?" I've been using another site that utilizes groups that has come up with a unique way of handling the situation. Allow the group members to have a "revolution" and overthrow the owner for a newly elected one. Attached is the other site's description of the process:

Politics?

 

Sometimes someone will start up a group and the group becomes popular but the original leader dissapears (sometimes in a puff of smoke). In situations like this the group can stagnate. Rubbish can't be cleaned from the forums, unwelcome members can't be kicked or banned from the group, journal entries can't be accepted etc. Enter the Politics tab. If you aren't happy with the leadership of a group you can express this by supporting a revolution, conversely you can specify that you do not want a revolution.

 

If enough members are in support of a revolution you move into a one month voting period. During this period members can apply to become election candidates by writing a manifesto. This can be as simple as "Vote for me and get free cake!" or even something sensible (although we neither advise it nor condone it). At the end of this period if there are up to three members who are clearly ahead of the pack they become the new leaders, if there are no clear winners the leadership is passed back to the previous leader(s).

 

So as to prevent groups being in constant turmoil, after an election the group has a two month period where no revolution can take place. If the groups members make a bad choice and end up with a bad leader then tough luck. Rally the troops and try again in a couple of months (assuming the new leader doesn't decide to ban all you troublesome revolutionaries).

 

As you can see by having a single category manager it allows a central contact, but with the associated group you add the ability to delegate inside the group tasks as needed by those willing, discuss items for your favorite category, as well as have provisions to change the category manager if he/she/it does not perform their duties to the level expected by the group.

 

On a side note the big confusion I have is variables and how they play in filtering, as I'm sure many others do. We get mired up in all of the categories when maybe fewer categories and more variable descriptors are the answer.

 

It's definitely tough to start a taxonomy right but I think a lot of heads here in the conversation are working it through pretty well. ;)

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I've been having Internet connection problems.. hence my lack of posting (and just when you thought I was running out of steam)

 

Okay.. Replying to Leprechauns:

What makes this post extremely ironic is that I'm the same person (while wearing my "Keystone" hat) that you chose to help out with your upcoming elections. And yes, I told my friend CCCooper to contact you based on your forum involvement and because the cache reviewers for Eastern Canada speak highly of you

 

--OFF TOPIC -- Oh, I didn't know that... weird that, now the circle is complete. Since you know CCC, why don't you come up to GHAGAFAP IV and give her a ride? We'd love to have you! Annie speaks highly of you.

 

Also

one of the cool things about Waymarking is that it will take some of the burden off the busy volunteer cache reviewers, who are *very* much looking forward to the day when our workload goes down. We will no longer have to compose long explanatory notes for the 98% of all virtual cache submissions which are archived, nor participate in the resulting forum debates

 

This also is why I am anxious to see the Virtuals become more "listable" on Waymarking... but we need places to move them too. I understand the idea behind moving the Locationless over, but many don't transcend well, or need updating (they just cut and pasted, and that doesn't seem to work)

 

I have one Virtual, and I cannot move it over since there is no Catagory yet. And there are Catagories that I have Waymarks all set to go that are not open yet (Like Plants/Trees). My first Virtual (Declined BTW) was a Tree... I am archiving the micro that I had to stick there, and want to place the Waymark.. so I wait.

 

This site is still in BETA, and I get that, but we need to see guidelines on effective Waymark Creation. I don't mind free form, but it would be nice to know how free form it is supposed to be.

 

A simple "How to create a Waymark and suggested Visit Requirements" would go a LONG way, IMHO.

 

;) The Blue Quasar

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People, Places, Things, Businesses

This is the point I was trying to make to Jeremy (in another thread) about the evils of flexibility.

 

This is the type of chaos that will result if Groundspeak doesn't maintain some strict control over the entire category system (ensuring that it's growth is logical and well-thought out.)

 

(Yes, I know that users will not be able to create top-level categories ... the point is to imagine what sorts of chaos will occur in the deeper levels of the category/directory structure if the userbase is left with the flexibility Groundspeak would like to give them.)

 

Categories should be taken out of the hands of the userbase, and maintained by Groundspeak and their network of approvers/reviewers. Allow the userbase to make suggestions (perhaps even create a polling system for that purpose), but all management of categories should be handled by Groundspeak. (Which should ensure some consistency across the entire range of categories, as well.)

Edited by dogbreathcanada

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Dunno... All I do know is that I cannot even look at the other main topic page here. The one that says something about "We are not accepting Catagory proposals at this time" but is JAMMED full of "I want this Catagory"

 

There is so much content in there, and I for one cannot believe that people are asking for Catagories when it has been said repeatedly that Groundspeak isn't ready to consider it.

 

So, now what is going to happen?

 

Either, The upper echelon will do a mass delete of all the suggestions... or they will try to build a massive infrastructure of Catagory possibilities and get people to vote on them (shudder at that massive request) or who knows what.

 

Can someone explain why people are starting hundreds of thread about Catagory ideas when there isn't a mechanism in place for that yet?

 

To me, the longer that goes on, the more it keep swelling, the more people are sitting there waiting.... Captain, it's gonna blow!

 

I have to be honest... well not really but it is more fun.... I glanced over the headers tonight for the first time in a few weeks... nothing really caught my eye, but my first concern was that without a set of suggested guidelines for creation, that someone is in for a big job or a lot of stress.

 

So, why are people suggesting Catagories now???

 

;) The Blue Quasar

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