Getting Hints From People Who Aren't The Owner

[SCP-173]

Many, many times people have logged my caches and flat out said that they got hints from other cachers after they couldn't find it/logged a DNF. For the life of me I can't understand why they wouldn't just ask me instead. Is there some kind of stigma about asking the owner for a hint? I'm always happy to give hints if people ask. I know a lot of people don't like to give hints on caches they don't own, though. Is this something that's common in other areas?

[+Stunod]

I don't have your phone number.

[+VegasCacheHounds]

I see all the time here in the Dallas area on logs that someone found it due to a "Phone a friend", in other words calling or emailing a fellow cacher (not the owner) for a hint. I have recieved such help on one cache here, but the funny thing is it was unsolicited and I got a similar offer from the owner of the cache as well (posting DNFs pays off down here).

 

I think that sometimes an owner may not be willing to offer hints, but another cacher may. personally, I think that if an owner doesn't want hints given, then it is cheating a bit to get that help from another cacher, but ultimately I don't think it really matters, as a find is a find, no matter how they had to resort to getting it.

 

Now, I have also seen cache pages that say "No Phone a Freinds Allowed", which is just fine with me as well.

[+wimseyguy]

I have resorted to the phone a friend a few times, but I wouldn't do it close to home unless I have logged several DNF's and the owner isn't too forthcoming with assistence. I'm quicker to do in on a caching run when I am several hours from home, and do not plan to return to that area anytime soon.

 

I'm not sure how a cache owner cound enforce the NPAF the VCH mentions. If I saw that on a cache page I sue won't be stupid enough to mention it in my log.

 

Oh and varsgeld-I don't have your phone number either.

[+VegasCacheHounds]

Yeah, I think the only way that could be enforced is if the cacher was honest enough to mention it in their log. I think it is meant more as a self-policing rule. I know that if I found such a cache, and some other cacher asked me for a hint, I'd likely refuse....unless there was something in it for me

[+Langner91]

I need to buy pizza and beer for the finders of this cache so that I can consider them potential "phone-a-friends".

 

I have been driving myself NUTS over that one. The owner's hint hasn't helped. I have fondled everything within 50' of where my GPS zeroes out.

 

 

I hadn't thought about asking other cachers until now!

Edited August 8, 2005 by Langner91

[+OHMIKY]

Seems to me it depends on what is important - finding the cache no matter what or overcoming the challenge of something difficult.

 

Granted, I am hardly experienced here, but I would rather come back to try something again than have someone give me a hint. I feel as if that would somehow dilute the experience for me/

[+VegasCacheHounds]

In related news....

 

On one of my puzzle caches I had a cacher log a find in which they staed that they were in the area with another cacher who had found the cache, so he showed him the area and let him loose to find it. Well, the hard part was the puzzle to get to the area, not finding the cache while you're there.

 

I was fuming at first, at both cachers, but before I did anything about it, I sat back and thought....and it occured to me....this is a game. if someone wants to cheat, does it at anyway impact me, or any other cacher? No, it didn't, so I let it stand. In fact, after I thought a bit more about it, he did indeed solve the problem and find the cache, just not in the way I had intended. He did an end run around the puzzle

 

In my opinion, the only person he cheated was himself, as I thought the puzzle part was the real fun part of that cache.

[+Nellsnake]

Granted, I am hardly experienced here, but I would rather come back to try something again than have someone give me a hint. I feel as if that would somehow dilute the experience for me/

Exactly, I received an unsolicited complete spoiler on a cache from another cacher (not the cache owner) after logging a DNF on a local cache that is known for its trickiness. In return, this other cacher in the same e-mail wanted hints for two other puzzle caches that I had found that have him stumped. First, I don't feel comfortable giving others hints on other people's caches, and second, he has now ruined that unfound cache for me. I *was* planning on returning to look for it again in the future, but now, what's the point? I would feel like I'm cheating.

[+wimseyguy]

While that last answer does fit the OP's question, it is a very different issue.

Unsolicited hints/spoilers are never a good idea.

[+sbell111]

One may not know the cache owner well, but have a friend who has already found it. It's easier to ask your friend.

[+flask]

as a cache owner, i often have a good idea about what an appropriate hint might be that would still keep the integrity of the hunt.

 

as for phoning a friend, most recently i did it because i was coming up with NOTHING and thought there might be a graphic on the cache page that could have been important.

 

there was.

 

five minutes later we had it solved.

[+welch]

I don't have your phone number.

Bingo

 

They probably just asked whoever was easiest to find/talk to.

[+AuntieWeasel]

One may not know the cache owner well, but have a friend who has already found it.  It's easier to ask your friend.

Bingo. I've done that twice. And in both cases, I was given a hint, not a spoiler. Stupid friends with integrity

[+StarBrand]

One may not know the cache owner well, but have a friend who has already found it. It's easier to ask your friend.

Easier to ask somebody you know rather than a stranger (cache owner).

 

 

 

 

(Not that I think ALL cache owners are strange)

[+treasure_hunter]

You think thats bad, once I was looking for a cache in SC at American Red Cross building out in the front and I heard, your warm its just below you. And it was a lady from inside who knew what people where doing when they were searching out front and she often offers help to them.

[+briansnat]

Personally I think its cheating. Not a bad kind of cheating like hiding a pair of aces in your sleeve at a high stakes poker game, or buying a term paper off the Internet.

 

Its more like slipping over onto the shoulder a bit early to get to the exit when you're stuck in traffic, or giving a golf ball a little nudge with your toe so its not behind that big tuft of grass.

 

Part of it comes from the "I must get that smiley - now" attitude. As a cache owner, I'd rather the seeker sent me a note asking for a hint, particularly if I made it hard on purpose, and let me decide if I want to give one out. Not every cache must be found by everyone on the first try.

[leafdolfan]

I always ask the owner first and if they refuse to give me a hint or it isn't good enough then I go to someone else

[+Team Red Oak]

I've only asked the owner once for a hint, but I am also pretty new . I tried to make it clear that all I wanted was a very small hint and she understood and only gave me the slightest nudge and I was able to find it. I still wanted to feel as though I had found it.

 

But I've had someone I don't know email me for a hint about a cache that I was the last one to find. Not knowing the finder, I was reluctant to give him too much of a hint so I just gave him the slightest nudge and told him if he needed more he could email me back. He never emailed me back and last time I checked he had not found the cache.

 

I don't mind being asked, but I would always ask the cache owner unless I was friends with someone who had already found the cache and I could call them from the field.

[+sbell111]

While I don't generally use the phone-a-friend option, I don't see it as cheating any more than I see it as cheating if I am looking for a cache with someone else and he finds it.

[+Tharagleb]

I will ask the cache owner.

I will phone a friend.

I will give hints to my own puzzle caches.

I will give coordinates to my puzzle caches, I don't care. Many people don't like puzzle caches and I would rather have them go find the cache than not hunt it at all.

 

It's just a game.

[+El Diablo]

I recently had a cacher ask me for a hint on a cache that I had found a year ago while on vacation in my home town. This cache was 650 miles from our home area and he was also there on vacation. I quess he wanted to ask someone that he knew, and also someone that he knew would respond quickly.

 

Also when I gave him the hint, it was just that...a hint, not a dead give away.

 

El Diablo

[+Sagefox]

While I don't generally use the phone-a-friend option, I don't see it as cheating any more than I see it as cheating if I am looking for a cache with someone else and he finds it.

Exactly.

 

People might be taking this game a bit too seriously if they expect each finder to approach the cache exactly as the cache page recomends OR requires. What difference does it make if 1%, 15% or even 50% of the finders of a cache had help?

 

One of the goals of this game is to Find The Cache. Trying to make people feel guilty for using any amount of cleverness, luck or help from others is pointless in a game intended to be fun.

[SCP-173]

Sheesh, some of you seem to think I care that people are getting hints. Read it again, I never said that. I just couldn't figure out why hardly anyone actually asks me for them. I couldn't care less that people are getting help. At least they're finding the caches. And trying to make people feel guilty? Where the heck did that come from??

 

I've never seen people mentioning phoning a friend around here, but that may very well be what they're refering to when they say they got a hint. Perhaps I should start to carry a phone, too...

Edited August 8, 2005 by Vargseld? ™

[bogleman]

I have been on both sides of the fence. If you have invested a lot of time and energy in finding a cache getting some help is fine with me. I have used the phone a friend option once because the owner of the cache was not available to help and I have given hints to others but I have always notified the cache owner via email as to what I had done. I would rather have someone find the cache or DNF the cache because it is missing. It could be a comfort factor knowing that they can get their friend when they need them. I don’t think they are trying to disrespect (or cheat) you or anyone else by calling for help.

[+carleenp]

I've never seen people mentioning phoning a friend around here, but that may very well be what they're refering to when they say they got a hint. Perhaps I should start to carry a phone, too...

I would guess that in many/most cases they are phoning or emailing a friend. I have quite a few cacher phone numbers in my phone and have called for hints before. If I have the cache owner's number, I call them, but sometimes I don't know the cache owner or don't have their number. If emailing for a hint, then I normally would email the owner.

 

I won't ask for hints where an owner asks finders not to provide them. That is pretty rare though. An example though is a puzzle cache I own where I ask the finders not to give hints in order to keep the puzzle a true 5 difficulty. I have had several finders tell me that they were asked for hints and didn't provide them. But that is a unique circumstance.

 

Anyway, carrying a phone can be useful.

[+reveritt]

I really don't care if someone who has already found one of my caches gives a nudge, but I would like the new finder to let me know that they were having a problem. It is important to give cache owners feedback about how difficult their hides/puzzles are.

[+BlueDeuce]

Personally I think its cheating. Not a bad kind of cheating like hiding a pair of aces in your sleeve at a high stakes poker game, or buying a term paper off the Internet.

 

Its more like slipping over onto the shoulder a bit early to get to the exit when you're stuck in traffic, or giving a golf ball a little nudge with your toe so its not behind that big tuft of grass.

 

Part of it comes from the "I must get that smiley - now" attitude. As a cache owner, I'd rather the seeker sent me a note asking for a hint, particularly if I made it hard on purpose, and let me decide if I want to give one out. Not every cache must be found by everyone on the first try.

I hear whay you are saying, but I tend to think of it more as lowering the difficulty level. (Sometimes below one star)

 

I may have intended the cache to be found with a higher rating but the cacher found it at a lower one. They know what they got of their efforts.

 

And there are times that I'm okay with a 1/2 instead of a 2/2.

[+flask]

I will ask the cache owner.

I will phone a friend.

I will give hints to my own puzzle caches.

I will give coordinates to my puzzle caches, I don't care. Many people don't like puzzle caches and I would rather have them go find the cache than not hunt it at all.

 

It's just a game.

hey, guess who we called when we were in that parking lot in CT?

 

thragleb, we owe you some cookies.

[+dingermcduff]

I think that giving hints, spoilers, whatever you want to call them defeat the purpose on caches that are meant to be challenging. I don't want people giving away hints to my caches and I don't like to give them myself. I wouldn't give someone a hint on another hider's caches either.

 

Why go through all the effort of hiding a 3, 4, or 5 star cache to challenge people just to have someone out there spilling the beans all over?

 

I once got an unsolicited spoiler on a tricky cache that I had logged a couple of DNFs on and it kind of wrecked the cache for me. After that experience, I make it a policy to avoid hints like I would avoid hearing the end of a movie I wanted to see.

[+Tharagleb]

Sheesh, some of you seem to think I care that people are getting hints. Read it again, I never said that. I just couldn't figure out why hardly anyone actually asks me for them. I couldn't care less that people are getting help. At least they're finding the caches. And trying to make people feel guilty? Where the heck did that come from??

 

I've never seen people mentioning phoning a friend around here, but that may very well be what they're refering to when they say they got a hint. Perhaps I should start to carry a phone, too...

I don't think all those posts were directed at you. Mine certainly wasn't. I think the thread just kind of evolved into a discussion of the ethics of asking for hints/help in general.

 

The reason I don't always ask the cache owner is almost always because it is easier for me to ask a friend. I feel more comfortable with the friend.

[+AtoZ]

It is a high tech game so why not use any high tech means. Besides does it matter. If I am out a ways and know I will not return to the area use a lifeline. It is only a game.

cheers

[+VegasCacheHounds]

It is a high tech game so why not use any high tech means. Besides does it matter. If I am out a ways and know I will not return to the area use a lifeline. It is only a game.

cheers

Oh, perfect example here: The above cacher just contacted me about one of my caches, so sometimes cachers do contact the owner for info.

 

(FYI, he had a quick question about one of my puzzle caches that he was trying to solve even though he's not in the area, he just wanted to solve the puzzle, which he did.)

[+Joe Smith]

People usually don't ask me for hints.

 

I had one, and I gave them a nudge on a micro that is actually very easy to find.

 

 

 

About a week ago I was sitting next to the puzzle stage of a 5 part multi and was a bit stuck. I didn't have the cacher's number (or anyone's for that matter). but my phone did have an email client. So I started to draft an email to the hider. That was the best thing I could have done. It made me rethink the puzzle in very simple terms, and to state what I know, and what I didn't know.

 

In the process I foundmyself on the right track. i was almost there but coudn't get there.

 

 

So I sent off the email and went home.

 

 

I don't think a phone a friend would help. i was doing everything right, just didn't get the final coordinates.

 

 

Joe Smith

[+dogbreathcanada]

I'll generally ask the owner for a hint via email after the day is done ... I don't mind returning ... I never call up anyone and would find it annoying to have people call me up for hints.

 

If I don't get along with the cache owner, then I'll email recent cache finders and ask them for a hint.

[+Renegade Knight]

I'll ask friends and family long before I ask a stranger even if I know your geocaching name. Besides I have their phone number.

[+EcoPit]

One may not know the cache owner well, but have a friend who has already found it.  It's easier to ask your friend.

That is it for me. It isn't that I would not ask the owner, but my sister and brother-in-law, who originally introduced geocaching to me, often run out and do caches before I can, so of course I am more comfortable asking them than someone I do not know. (Although I have rarely asked for any kind of hint.) If they had not done a cahe yet, and I needed help, I would contact the owner.

[+sept1c_tank]

Well, there was one time I asked a friend for a hint, but he was standing right next to me and had just discovered the cache himself...and it was my fourth visit to the cache (yes, I logged all those DNFs). I don't recall ever asking an owner, or anybody else, for any hints not provided on the cache page.

 

Occasionally, someone will email me for a hint on one of my own caches; no one has ever called.

 

Although I usually have the cache page in hand when I'm searching, and I'm not too proud to read the hints when I deem it necessary, I really can't understand why anyone would want additional hints anyway. There's nothing wrong with DNFs, and if the cache in question happens to be close, it's just an added benefit; whenever you're bored, you can just go after the one that keeps getting away.

[+Sagefox]

Sheesh, some of you seem to think I care that people are getting hints....

I don't think all those posts were directed at you. Mine certainly wasn't. I think the thread just kind of evolved into a discussion of the ethics of asking for hints/help in general.

 

The reason I don't always ask the cache owner is almost always because it is easier for me to ask a friend. I feel more comfortable with the friend.

This goes for me too. I was trying not to direct my comments toward any specific person.

 

People will ask for hints from the person they feel most comfortable contacting or the one most likely to be near a phone.

[+Runaround]

We have several cache owners around here who either don't give hints on their cache pages or give useless hints like "keep looking" or "HA HA No Chance". If you e-mail them for help you either get nothing or a little more abuse. It's just easier to phone a friend. On one of the caches it looks like a third of the logs mention getting a hint from another cacher. To each his own, it's only a game.

 

Our cache club has created a phone directory to make it easier to call other cachers. It's purely voluntary and the only people who get a copy of the phone directory are those who agree to have their numbers listed.

[+Packanack]

There is one local that is a micro in the woods, the owner expects request for hints after you post a DNF, then he E mails photos showing you where to find it, which is right where you were when you couldn't find it, but it shows the trick. He just wants you to walk. There is another local one where everyone who has found it gives hints because everyone knows that the coordinates are way way off and the owner hasn't changed them ever. But the hints only come after a DNF is posted.

[ImpalaBob]

When it's a reasonably new cache the owner will be the main contact for hints .... Obviously!

 

However ..... When caches are placed in areas with great Clubs .... like SEPAG (South East PA Geocachers), we have such great relationships with each other that "phone a friend" just seems easier. Hint swapping goes on all the time and we just consider it part of the game ..... YES it is a game!

 

The relationships we have developed playing the game are by far more important than numbers.

 

Yes .... I give out hints to fellow stumped cachers ..... but never a dead give-away. You just got to make your friends sweat a bit!

 

ImpalaBob

[+Bear Paughs]

As a brand new cacher in an area chock full of Vargseld?'s caches, I can offer some local perspective, I think. First, let me say that the caches you've hidden are ALWAYS my favorites -- they can make me go mad in how challenging many of them are, but I LOVE the hunt, and nothing feels as great as a success on one of your hides.

 

I think much of the advice comes unsolicited at first, but I can understand asking other cachers for help when you've come to know them better. If you're feeling particularly challenged and ready for a hint, I can understand it being easier to ask someone who is your friend, frequent internet/email acquaintance, or even sometimes-caching-partner how they found it rather than to ask the owner. Also, Vargseld? has been very responsive to my emails, but in reading these forums I know that is not always the case with cache-owners. Never fear, Vargseld? -- I am sure I will be pestering you directly, lol! [great, just what i needed, he thinks.]

 

Being new, I haven't met any other area cachers yet. But when I've posted DNF's on some of the caches (yours and others), sometimes those local cachers have emailed me through the site to cheer me on or offer me a hint. I usually don't want hints, as it's the challenge that really sparks me on. On one occasion I did request a hint from Vargseld -- when I'd visited the same site so many times that I feared I couldn't look at it with any new perspective. For that particularly maddening cache (which I think will forever be my favorite) I did finally get it, thanks to Vargseld?'s reply which gave just enough info to confirm my recent suspicion of where it could be. After I got Vargseld's reply I got another email from a local cacher who offered up a hint.

 

On another, non-Vargseld?, cache, I posted a DNF and received another unsolicited offer of a hint (this one was just the offer, not the hint itself). I told the person what my suspicions were of where it was, and asked them if I was on the right track, but if I wasn't not to give me any more of a hint.

 

And this past weekend I had a DNF for which the cache owner sent me a note to say if I was in the middle of an open space then I was in the wrong spot. I had replied to him that it appeared as though there used to be some sort of structure in the area where I was looking but if so, it wasn't there anymore. I haven't heard back from him yet, but just this morning I received notes from 2 cachers who told me something had been moved from the location.

 

I don't think anyone means any harm. I have been touched by the offers of help from complete strangers, and I've enjoyed reading their logs -- these things have helped me to feel welcomed into the community, and I look forward to meeting many of the local cachers.

 

 

Sorry for the long-winded response!

[+Isonzo Karst]

Just this morning in my mailbox a request for a hint on a cache I've found from a cacher I've never met. I told him (correctly) that the coordinates are excellent! And actually I think that IS useful information without being too much from a non owner

[TookDadAlong]

I've received help from both an owner by email and a non-owner cacher just passing by an urban micro. In neither case did they ruin the hunt by pointing and saying "there it is" just a helpful clue. Didn't cut into my fun any...isn't that what its all about?