When To Declare "not Found"?

[+wvsasha]

At what point does one declare "not found" on a cache? The first trip out, the second? I've read logs that are notes indicating several attempts to find a particular cache but they haven't declared it "not found".

 

I didn't find a cache and registered it as a "not found" after the first failed attempt. I do plan on going back and trying again this summer though. Should I have just posted a "note" as opposed to "not found"?

Edited June 6, 2005 by wvsasha

[+shawhh]

i'm sure you'll get lots of conflicting advice on this one, but for me, if i put the coords into my gpsr and attempt to seek the cache there can only be a found it or did not find it at the end of the attempt. don't be ashamed to log your dnf's. they provide valuable feedback to the cache owner and become part of the history of the cache itself. -harry

[+beejay&esskay]

It's a matter of frequent debate.

 

I log a DNF any time I Did Not Find the cache. I have 3 DNFs on one cache that is there but just very hard to find.

 

Some people wait until after multiple visits they have given up.

 

And some people never log DNFs.

 

I prefer to report the actual result of a search.

[+Isonzo Karst]

When you hunt for it and don't find it - that = DNF. The folks who log, "found it on our thrid trip" are robbing the cache owner and the cacning community of the information that they were there looking for the cache. The cache owner wants some feedback about interest in the cache - the caching community wants to know if the cache is actually there and how hard it may be to find. If you're relatively novice and log a DNF, folks can weigh the value of that DNF - it's still nice for the cache owner to know somebody was hunting the cache. Also, many cache owners (me too) will gladly offer hints IF you've logged a DNF - if you want them. Personally, I nearly always email any cacher whose logged a DNF on my cache asking if they want help. No DNF, no help... not to mention, a couple of consecutive DNFs = Checkthat cache! The log is your sharing info with the community.

 

Id' be embarrassed to log "my third try" without 2 DNF logs preceeding it

[+wrlwnd]

I look at the idea if I was where my GPSr told me it was and I searched I log the DNF. If I was on the way but did not actually search I will write a note.

 

Some examples:

 

DNF: My DNF Yes I did cuss the cache owner as he is known as one of the EVIL hiders in the area.

 

note: my note on a hunt

[+briansnat]

If I look for a cache and don't find it, I log a not found. Period. End of story.

 

I just don't these nuances. "I have to look for x minutes before its a DNF", " Its not a DNF if I plan on coming back", "If I didn't look real hard its not a DNF" etc...

Edited June 7, 2005 by briansnat

[+wvsasha]

Thanks for the examples and thoughts. Good guidelines - DH had suggested similar guidelines of "what if it were my cache, wouldn't I want to know someone tried to find it but couldn't and then I could decide if I needed to check it out or not".

 

Glad to know he was right for once.

[+Jamie Z]

I agree with everyone so far in this thread. Each trip to hunt a cache gets a log, and it is either a "Found it" or a "Didn't Find it." I have several caches with multiple DNFs because I made several attempts to find it.

 

Based on some observations, and despite the replies you see here, most people do not log their DNFs in this way. A while back I went through the logs of a handful of caches which receive an occasional DNF. I compared the actual number of DNFs posted versus the number of comments contained in found it logs stating things like, "Found it on my third try."

 

In other words, say a cache has 12 finds posted, and two DNFs. Often, if you read through the finds, you'll find an additional three or four undocumented DNFs. Likely, there are even more than that from people who don't admit in their log that it took two tries.

 

Based on my very rough estimation, I would guess that only one in three or one in four DNFs are actually logged.

 

Jamie

[+reveritt]

If I feel that I made a thorough search, I log DNF. If I quit before I got to the listed coordinates, or if GPS reception was terrible, or if I called off my search because it started t rain, then I log a note.

 

It's important to give the hider feedback--especially if the cache is new. Many hiders will add information or a hint based on several DNF logs. If you log a DNF, be sure to tell the hider about your experience, so he/she understands the level of effort you put in, whether GPS reception was a problem, etc. I try to provide other cache owners with what ever information I would find useful if it were my cache.

 

People who DNF and do not log are not doing anyone any favor. DNF is not a mark of dishonor, nor does it subtract from your smiley count. Often, the cache owner will repond to you with a private message, and may offer a hint.

[+hoovman]

What about this scenario: You start after a cache and have to abandon your attempt before you can give your best effort at finding it. Maybe the child you brought along has a temper tantrum, or it's getting dark and you turn on your flashlight only to find the batteries are dead, or the park is about to close, or a fluke storm on a sunny day soaks you to the bone.

 

Whatever the reason, it's a much a case of Did Not Search as much as it is Did Not Find.

 

I've seen three main camps of what DNF means to people:

• Got at least as far as the parking coords and went home without finding it.
  
• Got to the coords and searched, but Could Not Find
  
• I give up - I've tried and tried and I'm calling it quits for good on this one.
  

In my opinion, any time you get as far as the parking coords, you should log something. To me, it's up for interpretation as to whether an aborted attempt should be a Note or a DNF.

 

I tend to think it should be a Note, as it tells the owner/watchers/log-readers that I made an attempt but there was nothing about the cache that stopped me from finding it and it's less likely to be confused by potential seekers as the cache possibly being missing.

[+kashia]

I'd been wondering the same thing as, although I found my first cache a year ago, I've recently become more serious about it and have been caching more frequently - now up to 37. I generally log a DNF if I spend ANY time actually looking for the cache. But I had a couple of scenarios last week that I was wondering about ...

 

1) Cache located in a greenspace area between 2 residential areas. It wasn't clear from the description or logs how to get to the cache. I parked in the southern area and tried to get to the greenspace area, but was not able to. I didn't have time to drive to the other residential area and proceed to the cache. I'm really in two minds about whether to log a DNF ... I did try to get there, but I never even got close enough to search. Logging a DNF with a note that I parked in the wrong area could, I suppose, be seen as a spoiler. I'd have to give no detailed information.

 

2) Out for a bike ride, and working on a series of 4 caches along the way ... in a muggle-infested area. 3 of the 4 I managed to do with no difficulty in breaks between passersby. The 4th had a muggle sitting on a bench right where the cache would be ... she appeared to be studying, or reading something ... and obviously wasn't going anywhere for a while. I didn't even stop my bike - just kept going. Given that my primary activity that day was the bike ride, and the fact that I didn't stop, I did not log a DNF. Though I did mention in my find logs for the other 3 that I had hoped to do the 4th but was not able to.

 

Ian

[4x4van]

If I get to ground zero and don't find it (for whatever reason), I log a DNF. If I didn't even make it to ground zero, I'll log either a note or a DNF if the reason had something to do with the cache (terrain, hours of park access, etc.). But I usually don't log at all if the reason I didn't get to ground zero had nothing to do with the cache. I mean, realistically, if I get into a car accident 15 miles before even reaching the parking coords, what does that have to do with the cache? Or if I set out with 10 caches in my GPS, but only get to 8 of them before calling it a day, why bother logging notes or DNFs on the final 2? I didn't search for them. Finds, DNFs, and Notes are all feedback/history on the cache, not on my own prowess or ineptitude to get through life! Of course, the problem is that the line between DNF/note/nothing is a gray area. Everyone of us could come up with a scenario, then the next person could slightly tweak that scenario, and the next..."but what about if..."

 

But I also understand that everyone plays the game differently. There are those that will log DNFs for any cache they had planned to seek at the time they walked out their front door, but didn't get to. Others log nothing but finds (smilie junkies!). Do what feels right to you, and how you would like others to log your own caches.

Edited June 6, 2005 by 4x4van

[+Thot]

Here's my article on DNFs

[+Renegade Knight]

If I quit looking for the cache because I can't find it and I'm done looking it's a DNF.

If something else happens that prevents me from looking further but I'd of looked more if I could it's a note.

 

It does you no good to know I was skunked but really it was becasue 30 seconds in I was bit by a snake and went to the hospital. Same with running out of daylight and so on. A DNF should mean that after exausting my ideas on where to look I can't find it. Everone should DNF at the same point but they don't. Some think that once they hit "Go to" on the GPS it's a DNF if they don't even get there to look. Where if that happens to me the odds are I won't even mention it.

[+CYBret]

I agree with everyone so far in this thread. Each trip to hunt a cache gets a log, and it is either a "Found it" or a "Didn't Find it."

I almost always agree with Jamie, but last week I had to post a note rather than a DNF.

 

I went to get a cache and was standing right next to it, ready to remove it from it's hiding place when I heard a string trimmer fire up. There was a guy fairly close to me trimming the weeds. I could see the cache, if he had moved on down the road or if I had a little more time I could have taken the cache, but he was staying close and I needed to get going.

 

A DNF wouldn't have been quite right since I did FIND the cache but didn't sign the log so I couldn't claim it as a find. So, a note let people know that I had been there but wasn't able to log the cache. Worked for me.

 

Also, had I logged a DNF it would have made people think there was something wrong with the cache. No problems...just not a good time to nab it.

 

Bret

[+beejay&esskay]

It does you no good to know I was skunked but really it was becasue 30 seconds in I was bit by a snake and went to the hospital.

Actually, that would be useful to know if I were going to search for that same cache.

 

And even if I weren't, I'd enjoy reading about your adventure.

 

But sorry about that snake bite.

[+diverhank]

I have this silly 10 minute rule for myself. If I didn't have time to search for more than 10 minutes, I don't log a DNF. Otherwise, I'd post a DNF. When I come back and find it, I'd post a separate Found log.

 

I noticed that many people in my area don't log DNF if they will come back and look for it again. Many logs indicate that they found it on the third try without ever logging a DNF.

[+fishfam]

so far, we have logged a dnf on every cache we actually spent time looking for. Even if we thought we couldn't find it because of the dense overhead foilage messing up the gps coordinates. We still spent quite a bit of time looking for it. Now, if we got to ground zero but never actually looked for it because we got bit by a snake or a kiddo had a meltdown or whatever, we would either not post anything or post just a note. But if you look for it, didn't find it (for whatever reason) in my book, that is a dnf.

[+Miragee]

If I look for ten or twenty or thirty minutes and don't find the cache, I log a DNF.

 

If I get to the cache location and find that someone has parked their car to take a nap in the front seat, and their car is right at the cache location, I'll write a "Note."

 

I think all DNFs should be logged because that is the history or your caching experience. There is no shame associated with a DNF. Some cache hiders are very devious; others are not generous with hints . . .

[+fishfam]

That reminds me, no owner has ever emailed us a hint, and one time I even made a point of asking for one. OH, well, not a big deal and they sure aren't obligated to provide any. But it is a nice gesture like someone else said, to email asking if they would like a hint.

[+diverhank]

That reminds me, no owner has ever emailed us a hint, and one time I even made a point of asking for one.    OH, well, not a big deal and they sure aren't obligated to provide any.  But it is a nice gesture like someone else said, to email asking if they would like a hint.

I think if you email the owner, he/she will certainly provide hints. I did it several times and never had a problem getting help from owners (unless they either don't read emails or have quit).

 

There are many cachers who do not like unsolicited hints and will tell you so. I think that's the main reason you won't get unsolicited hints when you post DNFs.

Edited June 6, 2005 by diverhank

[+Miragee]

That reminds me, no owner has ever emailed us a hint, and one time I even made a point of asking for one.    OH, well, not a big deal and they sure aren't obligated to provide any.  But it is a nice gesture like someone else said, to email asking if they would like a hint.

I wrote about the "missing hint" problem in my blog.

 

The owner was kind enough to email hints after I posted all my DNFs and wrote to them. Another cacher took pity on me as well and also sent hints. Until that day, I had never seen a DeCon container and had no idea how they were hidden.

[+fauxSteve]

I agree with cachers should not be afraid to post a DNF. Some hiders take more offense to them than others, and in some areas they seem to be more acceptable than others. I've changed some of my opinions as I've cached longer. These days I'll post a DNF quite easily, as long as I did go looking for at least a waypoint. At times, depending on how complicated the cache is (numerous waypoints, for example), I might post a note saying "I found waypoints 1 and 2, I'll return tomorrow for more when I have more time...” But I might post a DNF for: "I found waypoints 1 and 2, and looked for waypoint 3 for twenty minutes. I need to rethink this one."

 

During the last week I had:

 

DNF - I looked for the trailhead and followed two paths, neither of which took me to the trail. Although I never got close enough to even begin looking for the cache itself, my 45 minutes trying to find the right trail equal a DNF in my book.

 

DNF - Got to where the coordinates zeroed out, and with low accuracy under heavy tree cover I looked around for an hour without finding anything.

 

Note - I saw a downtown "Traditional" in a city I was visiting for the first time pop up on my GPSr. I walked over to it and looked at my Palm to read the description only to find out that it should be a Mystery cache (a multi collecting info from buildings, but no coordinates for the stops on the cache page--you either have to know the building from its brief description, have read the encrypted hint telling you to print out the pictures (!), or do preliminary research). It looks like a fun cache, but it is mislabeled as a Traditional (the cache is not at the listed coordinates).

 

Some people are too proud too post a DNF, and some hiders are too proud to see DNFs on their cache pages. Your experiences will vary, but I think posting DNFs are a good thing. A good hider will also read the tone of DNFs to see if maybe they should consider making changes to their cache listing (bad coordinates, vague instructions, ect…) And evil cache hiders should be prepared to play along with meaner-sounding DNFs than those for regular caches (oops, different discussion).

[+fauxSteve]

There are many cachers who do not like unsolicited hints and will tell you so.  I think that's the main reason you won't get unsolicited hints when you post DNFs.

I see this discussion is more about hints now... I was really happy when I got some unsolicited hints after I started caching in a new area that I'd moved into. They were often very vague or encrypted as a precaution at first. I saw it more as community building and I met some friendly local cachers through those messages. But I guess the cachers that don't want--or provide--the unsolicited hint might not be the friendly ones I want to meet anyway. If you ever see me post a DNF and want to send me nudge, a spolier, or glossy photo with the cache location, feel free!

[+fly46]

If I made a good effort to find it and didn't, I post a DNF.

If I couldn't get to it because of a legitimate reason that is relevent (think, tree blocking path, gang of gypsies is in town for a week, etc...) then post a note.

If you didn't find it because you got out of your car, spun around in a circle and had no luck, then we really don't care to hear about your laziness (or mine yesterday) and don't log anything.

[+BilboB]

Only after I have given up do I post a DNF. Some caches around me (Vermont) I have been to six or seven times, but I have never posted a DNF. Others go right to it, found without a problem, easy...I hate that.

[+Team Dromomania]

Fly46 pretty well summed it up for me. If I give the hunt a good try but give up then I log a DNF. If muggles show up or I'm time limited I usually don't make a log. But, if I made a good effort to reach the cache area but couldn't or other quarks should stop my hunt (forest fire, police check point next to the cache, the smashed car where the cache was hidden on the mountain side got hauled off -all happened to me) then I usually leave a note.

 

I wonder where those cachers who do not log their finds go to not log their DNF's.

[+Melrose Plant]

I am not as strict with the DNFs as some are. I don't necessarily follow any hard and fast rule--if it seems like it should be a DNF, then that's what it is. If it seems like it ought to be a note, well you get the idea. And yes, I have logged multiple DNFs on more than one occasion. I am not afraid of the purple frowny face. In fact, I just logged one today!

 

It seems like I have more DNFs than almost anyone in my area. I wonder what that means?

[+Thot]

It seems like I have more DNFs than almost anyone in my area. I wonder what that means?

It probably means you log them and they don't

[+2Wheel'in]

I always log a DNF if I get out of the truck to search for a cache, and can't find it. The other day I planned to hunt Backside of the Buffalo; however, workers from that establishment, and others in the area, were on an "extended" break in the immediate area...I drove by 3 different times, and not wanting to compromise the cache location...didn't even stop. In that case I left a note on the cache page...if for no other reason than to just reinforce the fact that the immediate area of the cache is a muggle gathering ground.

Regards,

Bill

[+Criminal]

Some players are so against logging a DNF, they log them as found!

 

Edited June 7, 2005 by Criminal

[+Glenn]

If I quit looking for the cache because I can't find it and I'm done looking it's a DNF.

If something else happens that prevents me from looking further but I'd of looked more if I could it's a note.

I would agree IF when logging a DNF there was no way to expain why you did not find the cache.

 

A DNF entery is not saying that you gave up and will never again try to find the cache. It is did not find the cache, this time. You can always log a found it later no matter how many DNFs you logged before.

 

It does you no good to know I was skunked but really it was becasue 30 seconds in I was bit by a snake and went to the hospital.  Same with running out of daylight and so on.  A DNF should mean that after exausting my ideas on where to look I can't find it.

 

Those are three great example of why to log a DNF and to include a description of why you DNF.

 

As an owner a DNF entry because if a snake bite would prompt me to add the snake atribute if it wan't there already. As a cache hunter a DNF entry because of running out of daylight would prompt me to go find this cache earlier in the day.

 

Everone should DNF at the same point but they don't.  Some think that once they hit "Go to" on the GPS it's a DNF if they don't even get there to look. Where if that happens to me the odds are I won't even mention it.

 

I agree, it is Did Not Find the cache and not Did Not Go To the cache.

[+Hoppingcrow]

If I hunt for a cache and don't find it, I log a DNF, but only once. If you read a cache log and find a Hoppingcrow DNF, it probably means I'm beating myself up, trying to find it every time I'm in the area. Eventually, I hope to post a "Found it!" to go with every one of the DNF's.

 

The exceptions I make to this rule is if there are extenuating circumstances. I spent quite a while hunting a cache that had been archived and removed...something that occurred between the time I left home and the time I got to the cache site. I didn't feel a DNF was necessary in that case. Or say I get to a site, only to discover that there's a construction fence around it. In that case, I email the owner to let them know there may be cache issues. Logging DNF's help cache owners determine if such issues exist.

 

If you log a DNF, it's no worse blow to your ego than knowing you muffed it. You'd know it was a DNF, whether you logged it or not. And there are plenty of excuses you can make to justify yourself...naughty satellites, bad day, missing cache...if you really feel you need an excuse. Might as well help the cache owner out with a DNF, eh?

[+Marcie/Eric]

Heres what constitutes a DNF from us:

 

1. Searched for at least 30 minutes.

2. Area was muggle-free.

3. Daylight was still available.

4. No hint, or hint useless to us.

 

Sometimes we will not post a DNF on the first trip. Depends on the circumstances.

[+briansnat]

4. No hint, or hint useless to us.

 

So if there is a hint you don't post a DNF?

[+Marcie/Eric]

double post truncated.

Edited June 7, 2005 by Marcie/Eric

[+Marcie/Eric]

4. No hint, or hint useless to us.

 

So if there is a hint you don't post a DNF?

If the hint is useful, there's no DNF, eh?

 

My point was, i'll post a DNF before I email the owner for a "personal" hint.

[+Team Neos]

I post a DNF when it might help someone else.

 

I tend to post a DNF the first time I try to find a cache and fail to find it--and say why I think I didn't find it (hidden too well, didn't feel like climbing under the bridge to look, etc).

 

I only post DNFs for return trips to the same cache if it would even remotely interest anyone (the owner, another cacher). For example, no one cares if I drove there again and just as I started out of the car I had a family member call to say they are in town and want to meet for lunch--I wouldn't post another DNF for that trip because the reason I didn't find it has nothing to do with the cache.

 

If I go to the same cache four times and lift all the same pieces of bark, it really doesn't help anyone to know about the cache either, so why post that? That would only annoy people using their PDAs to read cache pages:

 

June 1st-went to cache, couldn't find it

June 2nd went to cache, couldn't find it

June 3rd, couldn't find it again!

June 4th-nope, can't find it yet

 

On the other hand, if I got there and it was raining and I realized that the trail would be slippery when wet and decided not to try because of that, I would post another DNF. I would also post again if conditions had changed near the cache since I had been there last--for example, if there was road construction going on in the area, or if a storm had knocked a tree over etc. --Those things MIGHT have to do with finding the cache, and folks should be made aware of them.

 

I do, however, keep track of ALL the times I start after the cache, and I admit to all the times that I went there turning over the same pieces of bark on the log where I finally get to claim my victory!

 

Neos2 of Team Neos

[+1BuzyMom]

My situation may be different ...or not. I cache as the lone adult with a 3, 5 and sometimes 7 year old. If i go to cache and cannot sufficiently search (ie. kids are fighting, kids are being too loud and attracting muggles, kids cannot handle terrain or weather, kids are cached out after reaching ground zero, tis list is longer but I won't bore you) I do post a note...mainly to let the cache owner know that I am interested in their cache...I definitely do post a DNF even I can search any amount of time and DNF. I also post notes on multis to show my progress and gice kudos to hiding techniques and materials. I will post a DNF on a multi stage if I have searched. I do not know how ya'll feel but once I have posted a note or DNF I edit it each additional vist to include the past visit and the present info. THe drawback is that (if I am correct) the owner only gets the initial log.

[+beejay&esskay]

I do not know how ya'll feel but once I have posted a note or DNF I edit it each additional vist to include the past visit and the present info. THe drawback is that (if I am correct) the owner only gets the initial log.

And all those watching only get that first log.

 

And it messes with the history of searches.

 

I'd like to see all visits as a separate entry with the date the visit was made.

[+briansnat]

I do not know how ya'll feel but once I have posted a note or DNF I edit it each additional vist to include the past visit and the present info.  THe drawback is that (if I am correct) the owner only gets the initial log.

And all those watching only get that first log.

 

And it messes with the history of searches.

 

I'd like to see all visits as a separate entry with the date the visit was made.

I agree. Each visit gets its own log. I see no good reason for combining logs.

[+Jamie Z]

That would only annoy people using their PDAs to read cache pages:

 

June 1st-went to cache, couldn't find it 

June 2nd went to cache, couldn't find it 

June 3rd, couldn't find it again!

June 4th-nope, can't find it yet

I disagree.

 

When having trouble with a cache, I'll go to my PDA. What's most annoying is a string of found it logs saying things like,

 

Nice cache. Thanks for placing this one.

Found easily. TNLNSL.

Wow, this place is cool. Glad I made the trip out here.

 

I'd much rather have other DNFs to let me know that this one isn't a gimme. If the same cacher posted two or even three DNFs, I'll know that this one is really tricky. That kind of logging provides a better indication of the type of hide than a mindless string of finds.

 

Jamie

[+caveman2040]

If I get to ground zero and cant find the cache after 30 minutes,its a DNF. Its either gone or the owner has a good one!

[+Celticwulf]

OK, I'm really glad I did a quick search on this one before looking as stupid as usual

 

Now that I've read through most of the opinions, from now on future cache's that I search for and not found will be DNF's. Being a newbie, I had a negative conotation with a DNF, but after doing some more searching this weekend and finding out that the last one I searched for on Saturday had been "moved" due to it floating in a pond, if I go back and look again I'll log a DNF for sure.

 

Thanks for everyone's advice on this, so a slight bump on this one to the top of the forum in case other newbies are wondering the same thing I was today.

 

Celticwulf

[+Miragee]

I also log all my DNFs, if I arrive at the cache location and start a search.

 

I don't know why people don't want to log their DNFs. Those logs are some of the most entertaining . . .

[+clu5150]

Okay - so here is my view on DNF. IF I have all the time I want to look for a cache, no babies crying, no job to run back to, and I don't find the cache, I post a DNF. If I am on my lunch hour, and only have a few minutes to check a few nooks and crannies, have babies and an impatient husband sitting in the car, have to get home to cook dinner, or any other reason for not looking as long as I feel necessary, I do not post a DNF. I consider the owner of the cache. I don't want to have them jumping in their cars and running off to check their cache sites just because I only had a minute to look. So many times the next time I look I find it. I usually just send the owner a quick e-mail and let them know I am stumped, get a hint, then if I feel I have searched as much as I can and still can't find it I post the DNF. This is not a numbers game for me - I just love caching, so for me - clearing up my DNF list is rewarding. No DNFs means no reward of clearing up the list! Just my 2 cents!

[+Team Torque]

So I had a DNF after looking for a half hour at a spot that was a 1/1. After getting back home and looking here I found it had been pulled by the cache owner just hours before. Do I (or even could I) log the DNF? I didn't because it was not an active cache when I was looking for it.

[+Miragee]

Actually, that happened to me one time. I looked for half an hour and really learned a lot about "paper bark trees."

 

When I got home, I found out the cache was missing and had been disabled that morning.

 

I still logged the DNF because it is part of my caching history . . .

[Team Firebird]

If you didn't find it even after a half an hour of looking, log a dnf.

[+BlueDeuce]

nevermind...too easy.

 

Edited October 11, 2005 by BlueDeuce