Illegal Letterbox At A National Parks

[Difficult Run]

I actually stumbled across this letterbox while looking for a nearby benchmark. It is in the Great Falls National Park.

Difficult Rock Troll

I signed the logbook saying I had stumbled on this. Later I e-mailed the owner of the box and told him/her that it was illegal to place a letterbox on National Park property.

 

This letterbox is just downstream, also on GFNP Property. I've also contacted the owner.

Paws for Thought

 

I've not received any responses from either party. Your thoughts on what I should do?

[+Morgan's Marauders]

I actually stumbled across this letterbox while looking for a nearby benchmark. It is in the Great Falls National Park.

Are these letterboxes cross-posted as letterbox/cache hybrids?

 

If they are, you can log an SBA log (should be archived) if you are sure of the regulations and there is not permission.

 

If they are pure letterboxes, not much gc.com can do about that...

 

Momma Marauder

[+Stunod]

http://www.letterboxing.org/talklist/list.html

[+Webfoot]

The park itself is quite small. If the letterbox is within the boundaries as shown on the map above, then a letter to the owners of letterboxing.org might be appropriate.

[+Criminal]

You shouold mind your own business.

[Difficult Run]

Thanks for everyone's input, especially Morgan's Marauders.

 

Yes, the letterboxes are on GFNP property, on the North side of Difficult Run and East of Georgetown Pike.

 

I've sent an email to letterbox-usa-owner@yahoogroups.com describing the situation. Hopefully, I'll get a response quickly.

 

If there is no response from letterboxing.org or the owners of the letterbox, I'll call this to the attention of Park officials.

 

Again, thanks for everyone's opinion.

Edited May 28, 2005 by Difficult Run

[uperdooper]

You shouold mind your own business.

what he said.

[twjolson & Kay]

I don't see the big deal. You emailed the owner, that's enough. He's the one that placed it, it's his problem. If he does nothing, it's no skin off our noses.

[+Hoppingcrow]

Retired NPS ranger here with a word of advice. Contact the owner of the letterbox and have him remove it pronto. He'd be liable for a hefty fine if it was discovered, and it wouldn't take the Fed more than five minutes to find out his real name, his great-grandmother's address in 1916 and what he had for breakfast this morning.

[+briansnat]

I'm with those who say give the guy the courtesy of letting him know. He may not be aware of the NPS rules. I'd certainly want to know if I placed something and might be subject to fines because of it.

 

Once you've told him, its up to him to decide what he wants to do with the info. Your obligation is done.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I actually stumbled across this letterbox while looking for a nearby benchmark.  It is in the Great Falls National Park.

Difficult Rock Troll

I signed the logbook saying I had stumbled on this.  Later I e-mailed the owner of the box and told him/her that it was illegal to place a letterbox on National Park property.

 

This letterbox is just downstream, also on GFNP Property.  I've also contacted the owner.

Paws for Thought

 

I've not received any responses from either party.  Your thoughts on what I should do?

Hang on a second, how do you know it's placed illegally??? That's just you assuming that he hasn't received permision. Perhaps this is an experimental cache/letterbox that the NPS is using to gauge impact on the area. There are many documented cases of parks departments doing this very thing.

 

I agree with the others, mind your own business.

 

edit: spelling

Edited May 28, 2005 by Team GPSaxophone

[+Renegade Knight]

Once you emailed the owner your job is done. The NPS can and does give permission for caches and/or letterboxes on occasion. You don't know the story behind the letterbox so call it good.

 

Something to keep in mind is that even if they do have permission the person you do plan on contacting may not know about that and you can open a can of worms.

[+leatherman]

You shouold mind your own business.

what he said.

What they said!

[WH]

While it is true that we have no evidence to suggest that this letterbox was placed without permission, the NPS' ban on physical caches leads me to believe that this one was placed without NPS consent.

 

It is easier for letterboxes to be placed in violation of regulations since their location isn't as easily verified as geocaches. With he exception of mystery caches, anyone can can go to a cache page and tell where a cache is based on the coordinates. Letterboxes use clues to determine their location which makes them more difficult to track.

 

I doubt the NPS differentiates between geocaches and letterboxes and one placed without proper permission will only toughen their resolve and hurt any chances we have of them allowing caches in the future.

[+Prime Suspect]

I have to agree with the smurfy saxman. Unless you have WH's apparent psychic powers, you can't know the circumstances under which the letterbox was placed.

[+1stimestar]

You shouold mind your own business.

what he said.

What they said!

Ditto.

[CoyoteRed]

Hello,

 

I found your Difficult Rock Troll letterbox and it is on NPS land.  I bring this to your attention because if you don't have the proper permission you can be prosecuted under Federal regulations for trespassing, littering, commercial enterprise, and possibly other statues.  A conviction will result in a Federal criminal record which could impact some of your rights as a US citizen.

 

This is just a head's up.  I wouldn't feel right if something happened and I didn't do anything.

 

But, if you've gotten the proper permissions then it's all cool.

 

I enjoyed the hunt, by the way.

 

Sincerely,

Difficult Run.

 

Like has already been said, they might not know about the regulations or they might have permission. Otherwise, you did your job.

 

The reason I would drop it there is because geocaching and letterboxing is not illegal on NPS, it just has to be properly authorized. On an active railroad or other situation where it is illegal, then I might take drastic action like take the box with me, contact the owner, and apologize if the placement was legal after all. Some places are absolutely forbidden. The trick is knowing what is and what isn't. Also, be fully prepared for a full apology when you are wrong.

[+DocDiTTo]

You shouold mind your own business.

what he said.

What they said!

Ditto.

I gotta second.. err.. third.. or ah.. fifth that. Doesn't concern you, or us. You told the owner, let it be at that.

[nobby.nobbs]

email owner and walk away.

[+Skyman]

Hang on a second, how do you know it's placed illegally??? That's just you assuming that he hasn't received permision. Perhaps this is an experimental cache/letterbox that the NPS is using to gauge impact on the area. There are many documented cases of parks departments doing this very thing.

 

I agree with the others, mind your own business.

 

edit: spelling

I can just see the irony when the higher up's in the NPS ask there subordinates how is the trial hidey thingys going. ah we had to have it pulled too many complaints.

Edited May 29, 2005 by Skyman

[+GIDEON-X]

You shouold mind your own business.

My feelings also, Leave it be "IF IT'S NOT YOURS" don't mess with it or stir the pot........ ~~~

[+CharlieP]

I strongly agree with those who think no action should be taken. Someday we may need the support and/or cooperation of letterbox folks in a political situation ... why make enemies? If you insist on pursuing the matter, please do not identify yourself as a geocacher.

[TCE]

I think the e-mail them and leave it be is the best you can do. Sometimes letterboxes are not stamped for years at a time. Other times, they are stamped almost weekly depending on the number of letterboxers who find that particular box.

 

Letterboxing, like was already said, is based on clues; and the clues can be incredibly hard, or very simple, so even a child could find them.

 

Letterboxing.org is a great place for information about the hobby/sport/addiction, but I don't think they have the kind of regulations, etc. that gc.com does since boxing is far older than caching.

 

Also, there are some boxes listed that specifically say, "do not list this on any database," or "be very discreet, so park rangers, etc. do not find it."

 

I think you did the right thing in e-mailing them. But, I don't think prosecution needed.

[TCE]

One other thing, this particular thread is a discussion on the LbNA talk list.

[+Coach Steve]

You shouold mind your own business.

what he said.

What they said!

Ditto.

I gotta second.. err.. third.. or ah.. fifth that. Doesn't concern you, or us. You told the owner, let it be at that.

 

I sextuple ditto that! I used to get all uptight about things like this, but now I realize that life is too short to worry about anything!

[+Glenn]

One other thing, this particular thread is a discussion on the LbNA talk list.

Here is a link to said discusssion.

 

You really stirred things up over there didn't you, Difficult Run. Some think this is a joke. Others think you are a troll. Some are more level-headed. But I must agree with this message here. If you feel these letterboxes need to be removed, why did you sign the log books?

[+DaveA]

If there is no response from letterboxing.org or the owners of the letterbox, I'll call this to the attention of Park officials.

PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS!!!!

 

Let's consider the possibilities.

 

First, it might a an entirely OK placement. Informing the park officials is like informing the US government. The left hand doesn't talk to the right. Park officials might get upset about something some other official OKed.

 

Next, it might not be OK. If this is the case then "what they don't know won't hurt them" applies.

 

I am not suggesting anyone should support renegade caching or letterboxing, but if the park officials don't know it isn't hurting them or letterboxing or caching or anyone/thing else.

 

They are unlikely to find out about it, UNLESS YOU TELL THEM.

 

You might think you are being responsible by telling them, but I would compare it to calling the police and informing them your neighbor exceeds the speed limit on the way to work or calling the IRS and telling them your coworker recently bragged about cheating on his taxes. You just don't do these sorts of things.

 

It isn't a particularly horrible "crime" and there is no reason to "nark". Nothing good can possibly come from it.

 

Email the owner, inform the letterbox folks if you feel the need (apparently they know now) and leave it at that, like most others in this thread are saying.

 

Do *NOT* inform the park people. If you do only bad things can happen, nothing good will come from it.

[Difficult Run]

Greetings to all,

 

Just received a response from the owner of the Letterbox at Great Falls National Park. The owner has graciously offered to move the box and retire the listing for it, as they were not aware that the box was located on NPS property. I applaud their decision.

 

There is a second box nearby on NPS property, but due to the responses I've received on this subject, the best course of action would be to allow this thread to close and take no further action. I'll keep the thread open for one more day to allow for anyone to add their comments.

 

Letterboxing and Geocaching are under fire in South Carolina at this time. The right thing to do now is to put our best foot forward and shine a positive light on our combined hobbies. Hopefully, geocaching and letterboxing may permitted on NPS land sometime in the future.

 

I've carefully weighed each response that was received on this thread, and it appears to be a delicate subject for most people. I want to take this opportunity to apologize if I've offended anyone.

 

Happy Hunting,

- Mitch -

[Difficult Run]

Closing this thread