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Right Or Wrong?


Puppers
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Had an interesting experience this week that I thought I'd share. I was in Illinois on business and stopped by a TB hotel to drop off a TB heading towards Wisconsin. When I opened the container I was overwelmed by the number of TB's - in doing an inventory, I counted at least 16. I know the rule is "take only as many as you leave", and we have NEVER broken that rule. But all I could do was think about the poor TB's (particularly the "non-cute" ones) who might never rotate out and in fact, many had already been there over a month. So I made a radical decision to take a bunch (9 actually) where I could help and not hinder their goals. After getting an email yesterday from one of the grateful TB owners, I was encouraged that maybe I did the right thing. And then today the Cache Owner deleted my log. What would you have done?

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16 ?!!?!?!??

 

OMG I think the most I have ever seen in a cache was 5, and I felt bad for all those.

 

That sounds like a TB prison to me. I know that the cute one get moved first, heck I am guilty of that myself, you did the right thing.

 

By my math that means you left 7 in the tb hotel. That is still a well stocked TB hotel. I think the cache owner has a bit of a control problem. I also think that deleting you log was in the worst possible taste. The next person who stops by is still bound to think it is well stocked.

 

And how many were in it when it was started. the problem with those types are that if everyone follows the "rules" the numbers will only go up as some people just drop some off.

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I hate TB hotels for this very reason. Bugs can be stuck in them for months... whenever one of mine gets stuck in one I post a note on the page asking someone to please save my bug. The worst part is if that cache is stolen 16 bugs would be missing. Bugs are meant to travel so I think you did the right thing.

 

I've lost my affection for TBs... I won't buy anymore of them, and I usually don't pick them up when I see one unless it hasn't moved for a while.

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The cache owner is a *edit*. The goal of the TB is to travel not to populate his/her cache container. Had they deleted my log for that, they'd find their cache missing. B)

 

You would have been right to grab one or 15. You are facilitating the game by moving them.

 

I know the rule is "take only as many as you leave", and we have NEVER broken that rule.

 

That is not a rule.

Edited by Team Misguided
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The cache owner is a *edit*.  The goal of the TB is to travel not to populate his/her cache container.  Had they deleted my log for that, they'd find their cache missing.  B)

 

While I agree that the cache owner is a *edit*, I would never steal someone's cache to "get even." This just leads to the breakdown of the integrity of our game. It's always good to be a bigger person than the *edit* who deleted your log and simply forget about it and move on.

Edited by Team Misguided
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As the owner of a very active TB Hotel (330 logs in 14 months B) ), I'm happy to have anything over 3 TB's at a time in there. I can't even conceive of 16! We ask that if there are three or less TB's that you only trade, ensuring that there will always be a few to trade for. However, anything over that, take as many as you want, with or without trading. I completely agree that the purpose of a TB hotel is to have a handy place to put TB's so that they keep moving. I haven't seen a TB yet that just wanted to hang around in one spot for an extended period of time.

 

And taking someone's cache is NEVER an option for ANY reason.

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My TB hotel up at Smokey Point is not as active as Team Noltex's but close; 222 logs in a 15 months. I own the cache, not the travel bugs that stay there. The TB's belong to their respective owners and I therefore have no say over them.

 

From my cache page:

 

If you take a Travel Bug, Please try to leave one. However, if you can help a bug on it's journey, it's OK to just stop by and pick up one without leaving one. And of course it's OK just to drop one off without taking another one.

 

Please do not take ALL the travel bugs. It's OK to take more than one if you can genuinely help them toward fulfilling their goal, but try to let everyone have a chance to participate.

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Here is what I have posted on each of my Travel Bug pages: My travel bugs DO NOT require trading. Travel bugs are meant to be moved freely! but be sure to grab them out of the cache page, and placed into the new cache page.

 

 

Here is what I have posted on my Travel bug hotel: Travel Bugs are meant to be moved and there is no need to trade one for another, leave one if you have one, take one if you don't, BUT PLEASE ONLY TAKE ONE PER VISIT/ PER CACHER, other than that just log in the logbook.

 

As anyone can see from the cache page I have had NO trouble keeping a population of TB's passing through, (thanks to all those who understand the seperate purpose of TB's.)

 

I am always troubled by hotels that restrict the travel of travel bugs.

Edited by EraSeek
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We ask that if there are three or less TB's that you only trade, ensuring that there will always be a few to trade for. However, anything over that, take as many as you want, with or without trading. I completely agree that the purpose of a TB hotel is to have a handy place to put TB's so that they keep moving.

I agree with most of what you said, as long as it's only a request that there be three in the cache, and not a rule. Motel 6 does not require there be three guests in their hotel, or that a guest cannot leave unless a new guest shows up to take their place.

 

A three bug requirement makes it a travel bug prison. Certain criteria must be met before the bug is "allowed" to leave. People aren't sending their bugs out to visit TB hotels, but to visit caches, wherever they may be.

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I own a TB hotel on the Kitsap Penninusla, and I ask that there are 3 in it. But, if they've been stalled, then by all means, move them. When we're going someplace, I'll grab some and move them on.

 

The owner of the cache is a jerk.

 

BTW, there is only 1 in my hotel right now.

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you did the right hting here. Well, personally, I'd just let this go,but log the cache again. If he/she deletes it again, then forward the thread to them. I've had a log deleted once, but for approaching a cache the wrong way! So I just relogged it (with less detail) and they didn't do anything. Just left it at that.

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Thanks EGH for the advice, makes sense! BTW, I happen to have a hard copy of my log (which I printed before it was deleted), if I can get access to a scanner I'll post it to this forum because after all, you are all trusting my word as to what my log said and therefore the reasons for it being deleted. May be a couple of days though.

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Criminal Posted on Apr 29 2005, 06:09 PM

I agree with most of what you said, as long as it's only a request that there be three in the cache

 

It can only be a request, since there is no way to enforce it, even if I chose to, which I don't. I recognize that there are some people who really enjoy TB's and want to have a place that they can always find one, hence the request. Three was pretty much an arbitrary number: not so many that TB's get stuck there, and not so few that there is no margin to keep it occupied.

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Thanks EGH for the advice, makes sense!  BTW, I happen to have a hard copy of my log (which I printed before it was deleted), if I can get access to a scanner I'll post it to this forum because after all, you are all trusting my word as to what my log said and therefore the reasons for it being deleted.  May be a couple of days though.

When I had a cache found log deleted I got an automated email from gc.com with a link to the deleted log. You should be able to link that here, instead of going through the hassle of scanning.

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When I had a cache found log deleted I got an automated email from gc.com with a link to the deleted log.  You should be able to link that here, instead of going through the hassle of scanning.

 

You are right! This is only the second deletion notice we have received and hadn't realized the link was attached. Here it is...

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...0b-400be7ad8d76

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I think it's horrible when TB's are left sitting there forever! We just placed our first TB (Smoochy the Frog Prince) and we placed it in a TB rest stop. It's been there for over a week......and I'm getting antsy about it just sitting there. Would it be wrong of me to go get it and put it in a cache that is more active? We thought this one was pretty active, but looking back at it now, I think we should have put it in another cache. Am I too impatient? :D

 

If came across a TB hotel that had too many bugs, I would most defintely take the ones that I could help along, no matter what the number (not all of them, of course!) ;)

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I think it's horrible when TB's are left sitting there forever! We just placed our first TB (Smoochy the Frog Prince) and we placed it in a TB rest stop. It's been there for over a week......and I'm getting antsy about it just sitting there. Would it be wrong of me to go get it and put it in a cache that is more active? We thought this one was pretty active, but looking back at it now, I think we should have put it in another cache. Am I too impatient? :D

 

If came across a TB hotel that had too many bugs, I would most defintely take the ones that I could help along, no matter what the number (not all of them, of course!) :D

A week isn't very long - but it is your TB. If you want to retrieve it then, by all means retrieve it.

 

I hate TB prisons. Any rule/suggestion/idea that would keep a bug from moving is just wrong.

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I wouldn't bother to send the thread to the owner as I don't think it'll do you a lick of good.

 

You could try to relog in a few days if it matters that much to you. However, I wouldn't put any details in the log other than:

 

"Found it."

 

Personally, if a cache owner deletes my log (it's happened a couple of times b/c they didn't like it when I told them their cache sucked - hey, they were even tactful... for me.) then I won't bother to relog. It's not important enough to me to have one more smiley face in my list of founds that I cow-tow to whatever 'logging' rules the cache owner thinks I should play by.

 

 

michelle

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I agree with your decision. Any one of us could have a TB in one of those TB hotels (or Gulag as this case may be). I look forward to you dropping them off here in Pugetopolis too. The cache owner was/is a nitwit. Had the cache been devoid of TB's completely, they should drop off one they have created/found to encourage TB's to visit the cache. Thats what we do when one of our caches goes unfound for awhile. It would be the same for TB hotels.

 

My three pesos......

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Had an interesting experience this week that I thought I'd share. I was in Illinois on business and stopped by a TB hotel to drop off a TB heading towards Wisconsin. When I opened the container I was overwelmed by the number of TB's - in doing an inventory, I counted at least 16. I know the rule is "take only as many as you leave", and we have NEVER broken that rule. But all I could do was think about the poor TB's (particularly the "non-cute" ones) who might never rotate out and in fact, many had already been there over a month. So I made a radical decision to take a bunch (9 actually) where I could help and not hinder their goals. After getting an email yesterday from one of the grateful TB owners, I was encouraged that maybe I did the right thing. And then today the Cache Owner deleted my log. What would you have done?

You did the right thing.

 

As to the deleted log: Write a warning note about the TB bug hotel to several caches in the area, so people visiting the area will know what (not) to expect.

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When I had a cache found log deleted I got an automated email from gc.com with a link to the deleted log.  You should be able to link that here, instead of going through the hassle of scanning.

 

You are right! This is only the second deletion notice we have received and hadn't realized the link was attached. Here it is...

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...0b-400be7ad8d76

I am posting a NOTE to that cache, with a link to the deleted log.

 

Let's all do that.

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Just my $0.02, but before folks break out the tar and feathers... :P

 

Looking at the cache page, I see no requirements by the owner about having to maintain a specific TB population here. Logs from Sep and Dec '04 show times when there weren't any TBs in the cache at all. With 5 pages in the cache's TB history I wasn't going to look at every single bug that passed through, but a random sampling of a dozen bugs showed many stays of 2 weeks or less, and several that moved on within days. I see over 140 visits in the 14 months since the hotel opened, and a whole lot of TB drop/took/traded log entries. Maybe I'm missing something here, but this doesn't look like a TB "prison" to me - on the contrary, it looks like a rather decent hotel (easy access, frequent visits, no restrictions on TB movement).

 

Wondering if maybe Puppers just happened to catch the cache at a time when dropoffs were out-pacing pickups. (No TB residents in December, no log entries mentioning large numbers of bugs until April, and it looked like the cache owner dropped off several bugs the week befor Puppers' visit. Possibly just a temporary spike in TB residents?)

 

Can't say as I'd personally agree with the cache owner's decision to delete Puppers' log entry. Sure, maybe they picked up a relatively large number of bugs, but hey, there were a lot of bugs in the cache...and judging from Puppers' TB stats I think it's safe to say that they'll take good care of their passengers. I've only got a couple TBs out at the moment, but I've got plans for several more - and like everyone else here I'd love to see them keep moving, whether they travel on their own or with a bunch of friends. (Nothing wrong with a TB party - I think they're great photo ops! :grin:)

 

Puppers: Have you contacted the cache owner to ask about the deletion? Just going by a random sampling of log entries, both you and the cache owner seem like conscientious TB movers - maybe the owner was having a bad hair day, or misread/misinterpreted something in your log entry?

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I guess I'm going to be the lone dissenter here and side with the cache owner. I think taking over 50 percent of the travel bugs was wrong. The taker knew it was wrong and tried to justify it with a gushy log about poor less attractive travel bugs. Cuteness or lack of it does not determine whether or not a tb gets taken.

 

I am sure that the bugs will be well-cared for as the taker is a geocacher with much experience, but he should have taken fewer. The bugs were not going to languish; the area is busy.

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Having now read the cache page, unless they have just edited it the TB Hotel is fine. It's main purpose appears to be handy to leave and take bugs at so that they move on.

 

If by chance it had a bunch of bugs in it, that's no more the owners fault than if by chance it has none, or if by chance a bug thief came along and cleaned it out.

 

Was this a non issue? BTW I don't think it was an issue to go move half the bugs on either. If you can move on that many bugs then great.

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Hi All

 

I guess I’m the one all the fuss is about. I do have to say thanks for the hate mail. I have found it very interesting. I also find it very interesting that Puppers had no interest in why the log had been deleted. And made no attempt at contacting me.

I believe the history of the Bug Hotel speaks for itself. Travel bugs do get stuck in our area. Before the hotel some sat here for 6 months. The Hotel was placed in a very active area to move them out. If a group of you wish to destroy the hotel and my other caches with nasty notes I guess you can do that.

As for the Deleted log, That should be between Puppers and myself and is in no way anyone else’s business.

 

I truly hope none of you get to enjoy this type of a attack on your caches or your reputation. It’s very easy to attack someone when you don’t know all the facts. All of my caches have been disabled until I have the chance to Email the Illinois Reviewer.

 

God Speed!

Rome

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I happen to have a hard copy of my log (which I printed before it was deleted), if I can get access to a scanner I'll post it to this forum

If you haven't deleted the email notification you got when the log was deleted, then you still have a link to the log. "Deleted" logs never go away and everyone can read any deleted log for which they have a link.

 

edit: Silly me. I skimmed over and missed jcar's posting of the same information. I apologize for all the wasted electrons.

 

Rome

I also find it very interesting that Puppers had no interest in why the log had been deleted. And made no attempt at contacting me.

Nor, apparently, had you any interest in contacting Puppers before deleting the log. It was your responsibility to do so before deleting the log. Deleting logs is an inherently hostile thing to do, and should never be done without pursuing all available alternatives first. Someone who deletes a log of mine without warning, discussion, explanation or justification is unlikely to find me in a civil mood to afterwards.

 

We'll have to take your word on the "hate mail" statement, since you aren't forthcoming about any of the facts. As for what's appropriate for discussion in the forums - Everything in geocaching is fair game in the forums. Not only, that but the acts under discussion (A cache log and it's deletion) are public, and therefore subject to public scrutiny.

 

Typed messages on the internet are famous for not carrying tone, attitude, and nuance (I don't buy it at all), but the content of your post and your disabling of all your caches reeks strongly of a big snit.

Edited by blindleader
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Of the 9 TBs I took, 6 have been placed, 2 are coming with us to California later this month (in keeping with their goals), and 1 is being returned to St. Louis because I mistakenly took it off course. So from a TB Happiness Quotient, all should be well.

 

Perhaps we should close this thread as I intended it to be for healthy debate and it seems to have gone down a different track? I still don't know whether I did the right thing or not, or what I would do next time (if there is a next time). But thanks to everyone for weighing in, it's given me plenty to think about.

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I'm not sure what all the fuss is about but I would like to make a couple of points:

 

Rome, the cache owner, has done a great job creating this cache. I'm fairly certain that most of you don't know and understand the placement here but let me see if I can explain. The cache is located at the intersection of I-70 & I-57, two of this countrys major interstates, and is the perfect place for a TB hotel. It's had great traffic and has served as a perfect location for TB's to be picked up and make a long distance run. The TB's weren't "stuck" in this cache because they hadn't been there very long. I don't see why having several TB's in a cache is a problem. If they were in a 5/5 cache that only had a couple of finders a year would be a different story but they were all short timers placed in a cache that has seen over 125 logs in a year. They didn't need to be "rescued".

 

Personally, I don't care if someone took a bunch a TB's as long as they made sure to pursue their goals. However, I do have a problem with trashing the cache owner when he's only guilty of placing a good cache that happend to have a bunch of TB's in it.

 

Now for my issue. Shunra posted the following on the cache page of a nearby cache........owned by me.

 

Of interest to cachers in this area:

Notes, including Find notes, are being deleted from the nearby travel bug motel. The matter is being discussed in the forums, here: (visit link)

 

This is bad form and the log will be deleted. I see that it's also been posted on the pages of other area caches and I will urge the owners to delete those logs as well. I see no reason to "warn" area cachers of the evils's of Rome when no such evil exists. What purpose could this serve? For someone a few thousand miles away to post this when they don't have all the necessary information is in bad taste.

 

I've known Rome for many years and he has made a significant contribution to this game and is well respected in this area. He's placed good caches, he's worked for the education of law enforcment about caching and always been very respectful of others caches. He certainly doesn't deserve to be treated so poorly in this thread.

 

I'm not sure why he's done it, but this non-issue has just caused 18 of our area caches to be disabled and that's very sad.

 

Scoob

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I hope everyone will take a breath and realize that nothing good will ever come of retaliation.

 

Rome tells me he has gotten a lot of nasty e-mail and some of it has been opened by his daughter.

 

And they can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Puppers would want, or condone this.

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I hope everyone will take a breath and realize that nothing good will ever come of retaliation.

 

Rome tells me he has gotten a lot of nasty e-mail and some of it has been opened by his daughter.

 

And they can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Puppers would want, or condone this.

Yikes. Of course not. Nastiness should not be retalliated with nastiness.

 

I have had a constructive conversation with Scoob.

 

I hope that the Found log will be restored soon, and that the TB logs stuck in a now disabled cache will be allowed to travel freely soon. After all, the purpose of a TB hotel is to facilitate their movement, not to restrict it with artificial rules.

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And they can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Puppers would want, or condone this.

No. As I indicated in my posting last night, I started this topic in the spirit of healthy debate. I had no idea it would turn retaliatory (and wouldn't have thought that of my fellow geocachers). Even I (as the supposed victim) wasn't angry at Rome; after all, we all know you can delete a log for any reason any time (even if you don't like the name of the cacher!). It doesn't give you a good feeling when it happens (this is only the second time for us, in over 2000 finds) and it certainly doesn't encourage you to seek other caches hidden by that user. But that's a personal choice to make.

 

I regret that I posted my deleted log, as that revealed the name of the cache and the user, which was not pertinent to the topic discussion. Lesson learned.

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I have edited out several of the more offensive terms that were used in reference to the cache owner in this thread.

 

This thread has taken a negative turn and the Original Poster has indictated that it was not his original intention. If you wish to continue with a polite discussion of travel bug hotels I would suggest doing so in the Travel Bug forum. As for this thread I'm going to close it.

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