Geocache Puzzles

[+SlideRule]

Here locally, we have a group of people that like to make geocache puzzles.

 

All is well and good. Except:

 

1) Some puzzles are self contained (All the information needed is within the puzzle )

Example: The Hustler

 

2) Some are not. Some are advanced exercises in Cryptology. Without a clue as to what is the solution, the base, the origin.

 

I propose that a good geocache puzzle should be solvable by at least half the general caching community. And not those cachers that get the coords by blind guessing.

 

I also submit: That if the FTF needs clues to solve the puzzle, the puzzle should be redesigned to include that information within the Puzzle.

Example:

Neutrino

 

What say you one, what say you all?

[+StarBrand]

If solvable at all - let them be as hard as the placer wants........

[+Greymane]

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. Caches which require "special equipment" such as scuba gear or climbing equipment are not going to be accessible to half of the community. Does that mean that they should be removed?

 

Some puzzle caches are easy, some are very difficult. That allows for a wide range of appeal. The reason so many people like the game is that there are so many varieties of cache types and levels.

 

If you don't like a certain cache or cache type, that is fine...just move on to something else.

[+Jamie Z]

I propose that a good geocache puzzle should be solvable by at least half the general caching community.

I disagree and submit that a geocaching puzzle be solvable by at least one person in the geocaching community. That's the minimum to contribute something to the activity.

 

Jamie

[+SlideRule]

For a crypto example is:

Crypto

[+The Commissar!]

What Jamie Z said...

[+tozainamboku]

I propose that a good geocache puzzle should be solvable by at least half the general caching community.

.....

What say you one, what say you all?

The guidelines for puzzle caches state

The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and should be solvable from the information provided on the cache listing. The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location.

 

I don't think we need further guidelines. There has been some discussion in other thread as to how to interpret

...should be solvable from the information provided on the cache listing

 

The best designed puzzle caches are the ones that have everthing you need to solve on the cache page (or linked to from the cache page). But a liberal interpretation of the rule would still allow for cache where you need to find additional information on the internet, hidden in other caches, etc. These can be fun to solve as well.

[+fly46]

I propose that a good geocache puzzle should be solvable by at least half the general caching community.

I disagree and submit that a geocaching puzzle be solvable by at least one person in the geocaching community. That's the minimum to contribute something to the activity.

 

Jamie

I disagree, Jamie... Two people - the person who makes the puzzle and at least one finder. Because unfound caches are boring!

[+Stunod]

Sorry, I don't agree with you.

[+Jamie Z]

I disagree, Jamie... Two people - the person who makes the puzzle and at least one finder. Because unfound caches are boring!

Groan. I thought that part was understood in my post.

 

Jamie

[+Allen_L]

For a crypto example is:

Crypto

With the right tools this one can be solved in less than a minute. I know because I have the right tool, which I found on the internet a few months ago.

 

I also think that a puzzle geocache is ok, even if it requires a long time for anyone to solve it. In fact it is ok, even if no one has solved it yet.

[+fly46]

Let me repeat this from another thread:

Being sick has made me sick in the head.

 

I make no guarentees of the quality of anything that comes out of my mouth in the next week.

[+reveritt]

For a crypto example is:

Crypto

The hider gives a fairly broad hint. I think it's an ordinary cryptogram, such as one finds in the Sunday paper. They aren't too hard.

 

I love crypto caches, and have two of my own (working on a third), but I tell people the nature of the cipher, then tell them where to go to get the keyword.

[+wimseyguy]

I'm one who doens't really care for puzzle caches. In fact I rank them just below webcam caches in my least liked caches list. That being said; what are you man, daft?

How could you possibly measure this or enforce it?

There must be an equal number of DNF and found it logs? But wait-how would that measure those who are too ____(insert lame excuse here) to post DNF's, or those perhaps like me, who look at some of these online and go nah, not gonna do that one today, or those who do attempt to solve the puzzle before heading out and can't so why bother going to the potentially wrong coords, or posting a DNF sonce they didn't really look for a cache?

Or I could envision the approvers having to post this: This puzzle hasn't been solved by 58% of those who have posted logs, I'm afraid we will have to archive it.

 

Nope, bad idea. We have enough guidelines already.

Saaay wait a minute-you aren't betting fizzymagic double or nothing on this thread are you?

Jeremy won't be very happy.

[+Greymane]

I don't live anywhere near this one, but just for giggles, I gave it a go. It took me about 23 minutes to figure out the cypher (part of that during a phone call with my wife).

[+tozainamboku]

Saaay wait a minute-you aren't betting fizzymagic double or nothing on this thread are you?

Jeremy won't be very happy.

SH** I used a sticker when I logged this cache. Do I have to delete my find?

Edited March 23, 2005 by tozainamboku

[sporkboy]

 

The best designed puzzle caches are the ones that have everthing you need to solve on the cache page (or linked to from the cache page). But a liberal interpretation of the rule would still allow for cache where you need to find additional information on the internet, hidden in other caches, etc. These can be fun to solve as well.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. There are other puzzles out there that can't be done ahead of time, you need to be in the presence of the puzzle to solve these. These are of course mechanical puzzles and that happens to be the type that I like to make.

 

Just because you can't do them while sitting at your computer does not make them inferior to ones that you can solve at home. They are a different type of puzzle and are not better than word or number puzzles, just different.

 

Different types of puzzles appeal to different people. I would say that the best puzzle caches are engaging, fun, a little challenging and get you to think, be it from doing some math or solving a riddle. Heck I'm planning one that requires a bit of basic origami and I hope to get people thinking in new ways about puzzle caches.

[+AtoZ]

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.  Caches which require "special equipment" such as scuba gear or climbing equipment are not going to be accessible to half of the community.  Does that mean that they should be removed?

 

Some puzzle caches are easy, some are very difficult.  That allows for a wide range of appeal.  The reason so many people like the game is that there are so many varieties of cache types and levels.

 

If you don't like a certain cache or cache type, that is fine...just move on to something else.

Where did this come from??????

 

the OP does not mention removing caches?????

 

And a scuba/rappelling etc... cache is NOT nessacarly a puzzle cache read the description of the various caches.

 

Also there is NO mention that a puzzle cache has to ge solvable by anyone. There are a few out there that I am sure are just gibberish so they can not be solved to claim the $1000.00 prize.

 

Mostly if you dont like it cant solve it move on. Know your strenght and weekness.

 

cheers

Edited March 23, 2005 by AtoZ

[+ShadowAce]

For a crypto example is:

Crypto

Solved in 1.2 seconds.

 

So it must be a solvable puzzle.

 

Thanks.

[+pghlooking]

I propose that a good geocache puzzle should be solvable by at least half the general caching community.  And not those cachers that get the coords by blind guessing.

Take a look at Circling in for the Thrill and read the logs at the begining. This was a puzzle cache that had at least 10 of us fighting for the FTF on it. I personally made 3 trips there before finding it on the fourth and was better than an hour away (my wife reminds me of this everytime the mall has a sale and i don't want to drive that far). We had people writing computer programs to solve. I have ne expertise in that area and am only slightly above average in math so didnt have "the resources" you feel should be had by 1/2 of the geocaching community in order for this to be listed. So based on your thoguths this cache wouldnt be listed and yet was one of best caches i have done. At the same time, most 5/5 caches, although not puzzle, won't be atempted by 1/2 of the community. Does this mean they also shouldn't be listed? I understand where you are coming from but don't think this was thought out all the way. I don't want this to become so easy you start tripping over caches. I want to work for my smiley!! For those who want them easy, go for it, but lets leave the hard ones here. There are obviously enough people who want to try them and we should get to play our way also.

 

Edit: the cache i referenced did not have a hint until after there were 10 DNF's/notes posted about it. The hint did help but before that it was very evil.

Edited March 23, 2005 by pghlooking

[+tozainamboku]

 

The best designed puzzle caches are the ones that have everthing you need to solve on the cache page (or linked to from the cache page). But a liberal interpretation of the rule would still allow for cache where you need to find additional information on the internet, hidden in other caches, etc. These can be fun to solve as well.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. There are other puzzles out there that can't be done ahead of time, you need to be in the presence of the puzzle to solve these. These are of course mechanical puzzles and that happens to be the type that I like to make.

 

Just because you can't do them while sitting at your computer does not make them inferior to ones that you can solve at home. They are a different type of puzzle and are not better than word or number puzzles, just different.

 

Different types of puzzles appeal to different people. I would say that the best puzzle caches are engaging, fun, a little challenging and get you to think, be it from doing some math or solving a riddle. Heck I'm planning one that requires a bit of basic origami and I hope to get people thinking in new ways about puzzle caches.

No quarrel here. I guess "etc. " wasn't clear enough. There are some puzzles where you must go to the posted coordinates to utimately find the cache. The Mystery/Puzzle cache is a catch-all category; there may be a physical problem involved in retrieving the cache or there may be a hint or a puzzle to solve to find a second waypoint. Some purist may insist that the first case is a traditional cache with a higher degree of difficulty and the second is a multi-cache. However I have seen these listed as Mystery/Puzzle caches to indicated that more than the usual brain power is needed.

[+tozainamboku]

I checked the guidelines and the purist are rignt:

The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location.

I guess if you are supposed to go to listed coordinates it's not a puzzle

[sporkboy]

I did notice that earlier in the thread. So by the book my caches would be multi caches even though they definitely have actual puzzles in them. If my cache has a puzzle at the initial coordinates which must be solved in order to find the final cache you would think that it too would count as a puzzle cache.

 

They are certainly made in the same spirit as a "traditional" puzzle cache. What's more is that I clearly state what the user is getting into before they leave to try it.

 

My cache was approved as a puzzle cache even though it did not have nearby coordinates like the cache type description. Perhaps it was close enough for my reviewer. After all this is a game that we play for fun and things do have a way of evolving. If we were all sticklers for the rules and didn't try new things then geocaching wouldn't even be around.

[+Nurse Dave]

I think the better questing is why would anyone make you solve a puzzle to get a micro?

[CoyoteRed]

My only beef with some puzzles are the ones that aren't self-confirming.

 

Some puzzles you just know you have the right answer. You work on it and as you massage the clue the answer just falls out at you--nothing else makes sense.

 

But some puzzles allow you to have multiple answers. I don't find this type of puzzle very appealing. At best, it doesn't give the satisfaction of the "eureka!" At worse, you get to hunt a multitude of locations with nothing near a certainty you are in the right place. It's the equivalent of a film can in a rock pile. There's little satisfaction in that.

 

As for who can solve it. I wouldn't care if the cache went months or years without being found. If there are caches that go years betweens finds because they are physically hard to get to, why can't there be caches so mentality hard that few can figure them out?

[+Marky]

I think the better questing is why would anyone make you solve a puzzle to get a micro?

Because micros are fun to find?

 

--Marky

[+Marky]

I wouldn't care if the cache went months or years without being found. If there are caches that go years betweens finds because they are physically hard to get to, why can't there be caches so mentality hard that few can figure them out?

I have no problem with this logic. However, I am glad there are ignore lists now.

 

--Marky

[adampierson]

>

I propose that a good geocache puzzle should be solvable by at least half the general caching community. And not those cachers that get the coords by blind guessing.

>

 

Sorry can't agree with you here. This would be nearly impossible to enforce and unrealistic. It would be too subjective unless cache creators do some kind of field test/study within the community. That is why caches have a difficulty rating. Most of the time (at least for me) the rating is realistic.

 

Out here in SoCal/Los Angeles area. Puzzle caches seem to be on the rise. Some geocachers have resorted to forming groups to solve the puzzle.

[+CompuCash]

Here locally, we have a group of people that like to make geocache puzzles.

 

All is well and good. Except:

 

1) Some puzzles are self contained (All the information needed is within the puzzle )

Example: The Hustler

 

2) Some are not. Some are advanced exercises in Cryptology. Without a clue as to what is the solution, the base, the origin.

 

I propose that a good geocache puzzle should be solvable by at least half the general caching community. And not those cachers that get the coords by blind guessing.

 

I also submit: That if the FTF needs clues to solve the puzzle, the puzzle should be redesigned to include that information within the Puzzle.

Example:

Neutrino

 

What say you one, what say you all?

 

I submit that you are free to create all the puzzle caches any way you want.

 

cc

[+NotThePainter]

I think the better questing is why would anyone make you solve a puzzle to get a micro?

Because not all micros are lame. That's why. I worked very hard on the puzzle on 80' of Waterline and the finders seem to really like it. Yes, the container itself is small, too small for swag, but that's not the point. The finders enjoyed the hunt.

 

(And yes, 80' is listed as a Small, but it is micro in the sense that no trades are possible.)

 

Paul

[+Tidalflame]

I don't see what the big deal is. Banning esoteric puzzles seems like regulations for the sake of regulations, which is never a good thing. The fact is that not every cache is going to be accessible to every cacher, whether that's because of difficult puzzles or a challenging location. Why ruin other people's fun?

 

By the way, the crypto cache someone referenced can definitely be solved from the information given on the page - it's quite easy, actually. If you want to see difficult crypto puzzles, check out the encryption challenges at HackThisSite.org.

Edited March 24, 2005 by Tidalflame

[+reveritt]

My only beef with some puzzles are the ones that aren't self-confirming.

 

Some puzzles you just know you have the right answer. You work on it and as you massage the clue the answer just falls out at you--nothing else makes sense.

 

But some puzzles allow you to have multiple answers. I don't find this type of puzzle very appealing. At best, it doesn't give the satisfaction of the "eureka!" At worse, you get to hunt a multitude of locations with nothing near a certainty you are in the right place. It's the equivalent of a film can in a rock pile. There's little satisfaction in that....

I agree, but the very few times I have encountered a situation like that, I wrote to the owner, who promptly cleared up the ambiguity.

 

As for puzzle caches being difficult--bring it on! No puzzle cache should be excluded just because it is difficult.

 

If you don't like micros, don't hunt micros. If you don't like puzzle caches, don't do 'em.

 

People seem to get hung up on the notion that they must find every cache in their neighborhood, and any cache that they don't enjoy should be excluded, so they don't have to do it. There seems to be more and more variety in this sport as creative people find ways to "push the envelope." We may need to start being selective in the caches we go after.

[CoyoteRed]

I agree, but the very few times I have encountered a situation like that, I wrote to the owner, who promptly cleared up the ambiguity.

True, but a good owner is not going to give you the answer, just give you a thumbs up or down on your solution. It then becomes a guessing game. That's my point.

 

Not saying these can't be fun, most are. Also, not saying these shouldn't exist, but like some fill-in-the-blank types of caches that provide a checksum to make sure you're on target before searching a couple of hours in the wrong place, a good puzzle that is self confirming is more enjoyable to me.

[+QDman]

I agree, but the very few times I have encountered a situation like that, I wrote to the owner, who promptly cleared up the ambiguity.

True, but a good owner is not going to give you the answer, just give you a thumbs up or down on your solution. It then becomes a guessing game. That's my point.

 

Not saying these can't be fun, most are. Also, not saying these shouldn't exist, but like some fill-in-the-blank types of caches that provide a checksum to make sure you're on target before searching a couple of hours in the wrong place, a good puzzle that is self confirming is more enjoyable to me.

I'm not sure that's true.

 

If someone contacted me about one of my puzzle caches and said, "I worked the puzzle and came up with answers X and Y," I'd correct the problem that caused the ambiguity, then tell the person which of their answers was correct.

 

They worked the problem correctly the first time, so why make them work it again?

 

That said, I may go back and add a checksum to the puzzle cache I have that's awaiting approval.

[CoyoteRed]

They worked the problem correctly the first time, so why make them work it again?

Some puzzles can be worked different ways to get a workable, but wrong, answer. It's the way it is worked that's part of the puzzle.

 

Yes, many times the clues are adjusted to fix the problem, sometimes not.

[+Kit Fox]

I know my strengths and weaknesses when it comes to puzzle caches. There are some puzzles that I probably wont ever solve, and that is fine by me.

 

I really enjoy making puzzle caches. The difference with my caches is that my big mystery caches require you to find my other caches, to garner numbers, in order to get to the starting point. Once at the starting point, you have to solve a field puzzle in order to get the cache coordinates. The best part is I leave the puzzle key.

 

Puzzle Caches that I personally dislike are ones where the coordinates are embedded within the HTML source code. I get bored fast when I try to find the coords. I also dislike puzzles that only one or two people have ever solved, and the owner refuses to offer any hints.

 

In my opinion a cache loses it's fun factor if no one can solve it. If I can't solve a certain puzzle cache, I skip it.

[+Kit Fox]

Here is one example of a fun series of puzzle caches that include a coordinate verifying webpage. West Gauntlet

I solved all the puzzles, but did not have time to find all of them.

 

The logic puzzles in this series were a real kick in the pants.

Edited March 24, 2005 by Kit Fox

[+fratermus]

I propose that a good geocache puzzle should be solvable by at least half the general caching community. And not those cachers that get the coords by blind guessing.

...

What say you one, what say you all?

I think it is encumbent on the geocache-hunter to learn who makes puzzles s/he likes and solve those, and ignore those by puzzlemakers who are too easy or too challenging.

[CoyoteRed]

I propose that a good geocache puzzle should be solvable by at least half the general caching community.  And not those cachers that get the coords by blind guessing.

...

What say you one, what say you all?

I think it is encumbent on the geocache-hunter to learn who makes puzzles s/he likes and solve those, and ignore those by puzzlemakers who are too easy or too challenging.

Problem with that is many folks try out different puzzles. It's not so fun to solve the same puzzle over and over. Some of the puzzles by one person is a hit while the same person can put out a not-so-wonderful puzzle. You just never know.

[+AtoZ]

My basic feeling in making a cache is to provide enertainment for people. So if I make a puzzle cache then I want it to be solvable. I mean if you have to solve the Schrondiger equation to find what an answer is then who would do it. There are a few of us in the area that it seems we just make puzzle caches for each other but I am trying to branch out and make all kinds. For me making a cache is getting feed back as well as the creative aspect of making the cache. Like an artist lurking in a gallerly where his painting is hung.

No matter what is do it should be fun. If you like making a cache that NO one can solve so you fee really cleave then so be it. But for me I want folks to find it, well eventually.

cheers