Religous Thymes

[+Team Cotati]

Let's leave Religion, Politics and propoganda OUT of caches...

 

We are bombared by all types of ads in our daily lives. Caching should be fun, not a way for others to "spread the word".

 

Peace.

Thank you very much. Discussing sex, politics and religion in polite company is in extremely poor taste and bad form. Don't do it.

[+QDman]

I agree about not discussing sex in public, that being the most private of issues.

 

On the other hand, politics and religion are among the most social of issues. They are meant to be discussed, although I would say that they probably belong in the Off Topic forum.

[+Team Cotati]

I agree about not discussing sex in public, that being the most private of issues.

 

On the other hand, politics and religion are among the most social of issues. They are meant to be discussed, although I would say that they probably belong in the Off Topic forum.

Like ticking people off, do we? Let me make a suggestion. The next time that you are in mixed company, please do strike up a most genteel discussion of your most social of issues. Let us know how that works out, will you? I'd suggest doing this right before Thanksgiving or Christmas din-din at the next family gathering. Uncle George and Brother-in-law William do so enjoy those quaint gatherings for debate and other forms of social discourse and interaction.

Edited March 14, 2005 by Team cotati697

[+QDman]

It's working just fine, thanks for asking.

[+Team Cotati]

It's working just fine, thanks for asking.

Sorry, I didn't know that it was broken.

[+sbell111]

Like ticking people off, do we? Let me make a suggestion. The next time that you are in mixed company, please do strike up a most genteel discussion of your most social of issues. Let us know how that works out, will you? I'd suggest doing this right before Thanksgiving or Christmas din-din at the next family gathering. Uncle George and Brother-in-law William do so enjoy those quaint gatherings for debate and other forms of social discourse and interaction.

While this is really getting off topic, you kind of have me curious. Is it your position that we should never discuss politics or religion in public? One would think that these two topics nearly demand public discourse.

 

Many would say that it is important to discuss these topics among ourselves as a way to mold our own beliefs.

 

Back to the topic of this thread, already in progress...

 

Personally, I find religious tracts kind of irritating. I recommend that if you create a religious themed cache that you define it broadly enough that people are free to trade items of various religions. It would be great if this led to people learning things about religions that they are unfamiliar with.

[Trinity's Crew]

My father always said to avoid talking about religion and politics while drinking. Consequently, I can never discuss religion or politics.

 

I personally see nothing wrong with a religiously themed cache. If I was bothered by it, I just wouldn't find it. Others will (and do) disagree. That's their right.

[+sbell111]

If I was bothered by it, I'd probably still try to find it. I wouldn't trade, but I'd still log it. Perhaps I should go through some sort of 12-step program.

[Hucklebuck]

I don't see what the big dill is. I think a religous Thyme would be great, we could trade rosemary beads. If you handle this gingerly, it could work.

[+flask]

i don't think i'm able to clearly articulate where i draw the line, so i'm just going to give some examples.

 

i am very pleased to go to caches ont the grounds of religious sites. i am not happy to have people approach me at the site regarding my relationship to god.

 

i am interested in, for example, the mormon pioneer movemet and the history of the handcarts. i am not intersted in anyone calling on me at home.

 

i like to see medallions and rosaries and other three dimensional thingies. i hate paper goods such as tracts.

 

i guess maybe for me it's perceived intent. i am very willing to visit your spiritual place or handle your artifacts but i resent the intrusion when you want to "do me the favor" of helping me to eternal salvation.

 

tangentially, i giggle a little every time i see the phrase "judeo-christian". it's almost never used by jews and it take kind of a narrow view of the world. it would be much more effective to use the term "what all right-thinking people believe", which i think is more in line with the intent.

[+briansnat]

I don't see what the big dill is. I think a religous Thyme would be great, we could trade rosemary beads. If you handle this gingerly, it could work.

[+Team Cotati]

Like ticking people off, do we? Let me make a suggestion. The next time that you are in mixed company, please do strike up a most genteel discussion of your most social of issues. Let us know how that works out, will you? I'd suggest doing this right before Thanksgiving or Christmas din-din at the next family gathering. Uncle George and Brother-in-law William do so enjoy those quaint gatherings for debate and other forms of social discourse and interaction.

While this is really getting off topic, you kind of have me curious. Is it your position that we should never discuss politics or religion in public? One would think that these two topics nearly demand public discourse.

 

Many would say that it is important to discuss these topics among ourselves as a way to mold our own beliefs.

 

Back to the topic of this thread, already in progress...

 

Personally, I find religious tracts kind of irritating. I recommend that if you create a religious themed cache that you define it broadly enough that people are free to trade items of various religions. It would be great if this led to people learning things about religions that they are unfamiliar with.

Define 'public'.

[+QDman]

Definition of "public"

[+JohnnyVegas]

I could put these books in a religous base cache

 

Books

 

[+forman]

I could put these books in a religous base cache

 

Books

 

OH.......that would be nice You are one sick person!

[+russell_53040]

I guess I would have to say that I would have a problem if you didn’t warn me first. I would feel like it was being thrown in my face. If there was a note in the posting that there is religious stuff in the cache I would not go search for it. I believe there is a rule that says no religion but not in them exact words. If you do find a loop hole that allows you to do so please add a note in your listing to warn people that there might be offending material in the cache.

[+sbell111]

I don't think that there is a 'no religion' rule.

 

You really wouldn't search for a cache if there was anything religious inside?

[+russell_53040]

I don't think that there is a 'no religion' rule.

 

You really wouldn't search for a cache if there was anything religious inside?

I thought I seen it somewere . That is right I would not search for one if there was religious inside. Im not gonna go into my beliefs.

[+sbell111]

I've been to a ton of caches with crosses inside. I even traded out a St. Somebody medal for my wife, once.

 

If you got to a regular old cache under a pile of sticks and were looking through the loot, would you be offended if there was, say, a Star of David in there?

[+JohnnyVegas]

I could put these books in a religous base cache

 

Books

 

OH.......that would be nice You are one sick person!

Shouldn't you be out caching today.

I have been doing cache maintance for the pas two days

[+orome]

There's a cache just down the road from the cabin we're staying in that's on church grounds and has a religious theme, but it didn't feel in any way like proselytizing. We didn't burst into flame as nonbelievers in approaching it, so it's not a worry in my book.

[nobby.nobbs]

i don't see a major problem. even if it's overtly religious. i mean it's not like you have to read any literature they leave or it's going to infect you in some way! sign the log register the find and ignore what you don't agree with.

 

if you went somewhere where you didn't like the view would you walk away without signing the log? or a vegitarian refusing to sign the log where there are some mctoys?

 

as long as they are honest and don't suprise people with the contents then go ahead and place whatever material of that nature.

[+Team Cotati]

I've been to a ton of caches with crosses inside.  I even traded out a St. Somebody medal for my wife, once.

 

If you got to a regular old cache under a pile of sticks and were looking through the loot, would you be offended if there was, say, a Star of David in there?

Star of David? Of course not. They are symbols of Judiasm. Jews are nice people. Jews don't bother you....unless you are an Arab terrorist or enabler. Further it is unlikely that a member of the Jewish faith would be so obtuse or presumptive. A Star of David or a Christian Cross or whatever them Zororasters or Muslims or Buddhist or Hindus wear around their necks would not offend most, me included. That however is not the topic, that is a smoke screen.

Edited March 16, 2005 by Team cotati697

[+sbell111]

I was probing Russell's opinions because his are likely indicative of others who are against a religious-themed cache.

 

The bottom line is this. If a person finds a cache and there is nothing inside that he/she wants to trade for, they can merely sign the log and not trade. This is true whether it is a themed cache or not.

 

Therefore, the only issue is whether religious objects should be placed in a cache. They are certainly not against the guidelines. Also, they are already commonly traded without problems.

 

For the above reasons, I see no problem with a religious-themed cache. I still go by my previously mentioned caveats, however. In my opinion, the cache should be open to objects from all faiths. (If it were my cache, I'd monitor it closely to remove the devil worship stuff, but that's just me.) I'd also be careful to hide it in a location that did not make it appear to be an advert for any particular church.

Edited March 16, 2005 by sbell111

[+JohnnyVegas]

In my opinion, the cache should be open to objects from all faiths. (If it were my cache, I'd monitor it closely to remove the devil worship stuff, but that's just me.) I'd also be careful to hide it in a location that did not make it appear to be an advert for any particular church.

 

So it would not be open to all faiths.

Unless it was open to all faiths it would be proselytizing and agenda of one faith over another one,

For the reason the cache would violate the guide line posted below.

 

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

I new if I posted that link someone would take the bait

Edited March 16, 2005 by JohnnyVegas

[+sbell111]

Actually, I never clicked on your link. The whole devil worshipping thing came up in the last couple of threads on this topic.

 

I would remove any items in any of my caches that would not be appropriate for kids in order to keep my caches within the guidelines.

Edited March 16, 2005 by sbell111

[+Renegade Knight]

Cachers include athiests, agnostics, and people of faith. You can remove the literature from the cache, but not the belief from the cacher.

 

For the most part the argument is moot. Any cacher for any reason can have an item they trade, and others may or may not like it. It's as simple as that. Unless it breaks laws, or land manager wishes, the item is fine.

 

Because we do live in a world with people of all stripes, any publicly accessible location is a prospective location for a cache. It's as simple as that.

[+Greymane]

After some of the things I have seen in the woods (both in caches and along the trail), I would not bat an eye at items relating to any religion.

 

On a side note, should this cache become active, I would like to hunt it. It should be no problem, just go to the general area and look for the ashes of the non-believers who burst into flames after touching it!

[+russell_53040]

I was probing Russell's opinions because his are likely indicative of others who are against a religious-themed cache.

 

The bottom line is this. If a person finds a cache and there is nothing inside that he/she wants to trade for, they can merely sign the log and not trade. This is true whether it is a themed cache or not.

 

Therefore, the only issue is whether religious objects should be placed in a cache. They are certainly not against the guidelines. Also, they are already commonly traded without problems.

 

For the above reasons, I see no problem with a religious-themed cache. I still go by my previously mentioned caveats, however. In my opinion, the cache should be open to objects from all faiths. (If it were my cache, I'd monitor it closely to remove the devil worship stuff, but that's just me.) I'd also be careful to hide it in a location that did not make it appear to be an advert for any particular church.

I told ya that I was not going to go into my beliefs and thats what I am going to leave it at.

[+sbell111]

I never asked you a question about your beliefs. Nor did I make any statements about mine.

Edited March 17, 2005 by sbell111

[+JohnnyVegas]

The nature of the replies in this thread is a fine example of why caches that promote religion are not allowed. I do not care how many times someone can tell me they are not proselytizing if they do a religion base cache, it is proselytizing and should not be done. Thats like saying wen some joker knocks on your door they are not proselytizing, give me a break, it's the same thing.

[nobby.nobbs]

The nature of the replies in this thread is a fine example of why caches that promote religion are not allowed. I do not care how many times someone can tell me they are not proselytizing if they do a religion base cache, it is proselytizing and should not be done. Thats like saying wen some joker knocks on your door they are not proselytizing, give me a break, it's the same thing.

no the difference is we can choose to visit a cache. the people who knock on your door are invading your space to thrust their belief onto you. i have major problems with that. it'd be like the cache being inside the church and having to speak to the priest (whoever) to be able to log it. so very different . you can choose to ignore literature left inside the cache. the people at the door depend upon your good manners to not slam the door in their face.

[gridlox]

Thats like saying wen some joker knocks on your door they are not proselytizing,

Just answer the door naked with a bowl of Cheerios and a six-pack of Budwieser and invite them in.

They'll quit coming around for sure!!

 

You think I'm kidding don't ya!

 

My cuz had a problem with a certain religious group that came around monthly like clockwork.

He did exacly what I said above.

They NEVER came back!!

-----------------------------------

I adhere to the Christian faith "way of thinking" in my personal beliefs, but I also believe that it is personal to each and everyone.

Hence the "personal relationship with Jesus" thing.

To use underhanded tactics to try and trick people to into accepting the way you believe is just wrong in everyway!

 

I have never read in the Bible where Jesus stood on street corners and handed out religious tracts or left them in unassuming spots, with hopes that someone would read them and be miraculously saved.

 

If it is truely on your heart that you need to save someone's soul, do it like the Master(Jesus) did it, one on one, face to face!!

 

D-man

[Hucklebuck]

I did a quick keyword search:

 

Jesus - 5 caches (I think two have at least some reverence)

God - 0 caches

Satan - 8

Devil - 244

Wicca - 1

 

Good 5 - Evil 252 - Pagan - 1

 

One more cache probably won't tip the scales tremendously. The Jesus and pagan camps are way behind.

Edited March 17, 2005 by Hucklebuck

[+sbell111]

You might want to do a quick edit on your pic to obscure the TB number.

Edited March 17, 2005 by sbell111

[Hucklebuck]

Why? It's a real TB. The picture is already on the site.

[+sbell111]

Generally, its not a good idea to post pics of the number because anybody can log the bug. This results in the bug not showing in the correct cache (or in the pocket of the correct cacher) and the map and travel distance being incorrect.

[Hucklebuck]

That makes sense, kind of. Now I have a whole how do I edit a picture issue.

Edited March 17, 2005 by Hucklebuck

[+Tharagleb]

Did anybody get that TB number before he fixed the pic?

[mwenechanga]

Churches are very often historically and spiritually and architecturally

interesting, and are legitimate cache sites when permitted. Spirituality is

human nature, I'm not ashamed of it. Let's celebrate what we are.

 

A cache that has an openly religious theme should be fine. If you can

get it past a reviewer, then by definition it is fine. And if I really don't

like your religion, I won't visit it. I won't even be upset, I mean, why

should I be? It's your cache.

 

But if your cache says "teddy-bear themed," and I get there and it's full

of tracts for your religion, and one teddy-bear who's been nailed to a

wooden cross, I'll be upset. Even if you're the same religion as I am.

Because you lied to me.

 

For me, it's not about religion. It's about enjoying GeoCaching.

I do, and I want others to do so too.

 

I looked at one chick tract.

"If YOU believe in Evolution instead of Jesus, you'll end up in Hell."

That just doesn't interest or amuse me. I'll discuss why with you all you

want, in a philosophy or religion forum, but not here.

 

 

I like geocaching for the challenge, for the trinkets. It's fun.

[+Renegade Knight]

That makes sense, kind of. Now I have a whole how do I edit a picture issue.

There are people who do that just to show you why you shouldn't show the tag. They call it a favor. I call it annoying, but then I edited my bug so they would go away.

[+fly46]

(If it were my cache, I'd monitor it closely to remove the devil worship stuff, but that's just me.)

The irony is that in order to worship the devil, you must first believe in him.

In order to believe in him, you have to believe in God.

Thus, to worship the devil you have to be Christian. Interesting.

 

Ironically, in order to properly practice voodoo, you have to be a practicing Catholic.

 

 

The issue with this whole thing is that many religions are seriously misunderstood. The problems come from misunderstandings and unknowledgeable people that think they know what's going on - or even worse, know everything they know about something from Hollywood.

 

By the way, these predate the egyptian ankh. One means life (as in the birth of the sun) the other is death (as in the death of the moon). But we probably shouldn't use that in caches either, since the average cacher has no clue. Oh, and since today's St. Patrick's day:

 

Interesting Read - oh, and the boyscouts used it up until WWII, when they changed it because of growing public concern and ignorance.

[+Team Cotati]

(If it were my cache, I'd monitor it closely to remove the devil worship stuff, but that's just me.)

The irony is that in order to worship the devil, you must first believe in him.

In order to believe in him, you have to believe in God.

Thus, to worship the devil you have to be Christian. Interesting.

 

Ironically, in order to properly practice voodoo, you have to be a practicing Catholic.

 

 

The issue with this whole thing is that many religions are seriously misunderstood. The problems come from misunderstandings and unknowledgeable people that think they know what's going on - or even worse, know everything they know about something from Hollywood.

 

By the way, these predate the egyptian ankh. One means life (as in the birth of the sun) the other is death (as in the death of the moon). But we probably shouldn't use that in caches either, since the average cacher has no clue. Oh, and since today's St. Patrick's day:

 

Interesting Read - oh, and the boyscouts used it up until WWII, when they changed it because of growing public concern and ignorance.

Ya know, I tried to tell you people but ....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Happy are we?

[Difficult Run]

The nature of the replies in this thread is a fine example of why caches that promote religion are not allowed. I do not care how many times someone can tell me they are not  proselytizing if they do a religion base cache, it is  proselytizing and should not be done.  Thats like saying wen some joker knocks on your door they are not  proselytizing, give me a break, it's the same thing.

Thank you - Well said.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Thats like saying wen some joker knocks on your door they are not  proselytizing,

Just answer the door naked with a bowl of Cheerios and a six-pack of Budwieser and invite them in.

They'll quit coming around for sure!!

Dang. Last time I tried that, they came back to pray over me. Cheerios, that's it! Cheerios next time.

 

I respect most religions (but not all). Perhaps less respect for many adherents. (But that's a different story.) I will do caches and benchmarks at churches. KU1450 (Okay, so I had to crawl behind a fake Christmas tree to get that picture...) I will not do religious themed caches. Nor will I do graveyard caches.

Thanks, but I'll pass on it.

Edited April 17, 2005 by Harry Dolphin

[tiber]

OK, I don't even understand why this is even a debate. The rules clearly state that there are no religious caches (or political, etc). The spirit of the thing is that no caches are allowed to prostylize any particular stance. That being said, this is not an issue of "it offends me" (go get a can of suck-it-up) but an issue of ministry. The moment you allow religion or politics into a sport other then in the most general sense (South Carolina?), everyone starts dividing the sport up into factions. The easiest way to deal with it is to abolish it entirely. Again: This is not an issue of offense, it's an issue of hegemony.

 

The same applies to the "trashed caches" idea. It is inappropriate to trash a cache, but we cannot put people on trial for intent, only action. If someone trashes a cache, that's inappropriate, but that is also why a cache cannot be religious or polotically themed. If the intent of a cache is to be a neutrally biased object, then that's OK. If the intent is religion or politics, that's not OK. If the neutrally biased cache collects some religious items, then the intent of the cache is still without bias. It just happens to have some religious items. The moment anyone is persecuted because they trashed a cache is OK with me, but the moment they are persecuted for trashing a cache because you assume it's due to religion is inappropriate. To step over that line means that anyone carrying a gun is to be prosecuted for murder -- even if they are a cop or hunter. Why is this point important? If your religious or politically themed cache were approved (not even going to happen, this is the sake of argument) and destroyed, the problem is not with religion but with the maturity of the cacher. The stance that "kittens offend me so we can't have kitten caches" is both stupid and childish. It does not apply and is seperate from the argument and issue.

 

The same concepts hold true for cachers who remove religious items from caches. (Fair disclosure, I am one of them). If I come across a cache someone has put 10 Shahadah tracts in (even if this is not done in the spirit of Zakaah as in this was an issue of ministry, not an issue of practicing religion -- If you don't look these up don't even try to argue with me), I will trade up 10 items from my pack to remove these items. This is fair and legal under the rules of "trade up" as most people judge "trade up" to imply "money". I can promise you that my items are more expensive then those tracts are. What I do with those is my own personal discretion. You placed them there in hopes someone would look at them and remove them, right? Why are you offended that you failed to convert me?

 

Look up hegemony and read about it. I hope that people who do quickly understand why politically and religiously themed caches are denied. The issue is not about rights, the issue is about community.