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Pyewacket
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I think folks need to use good judgement and decide if it is a solicitous item or if it is a signature item. Just because secular idealism doesn't mesh well with religous idealism doesn't mean all religous items are solicitous.

 

People of faith use these items to witness their lifestyle as well as anybody else does with their signature items. Does that mean a 100% ban on these should be in effect? I don't think that's the way the guidelines were meant to be read.

 

It's much easier to be respectful of everyone if we don't mix religion and caching.

 

It's also disrespectful to expect people to stop witnessing their lifestyle just because there is a religous connotation to it. Walk in their shoes first before you call it a pile.

 

Dropping a Koran can probably be considered solicitous. Dropping a cross without identifying it with the nic can also be considered solicitous. Put a tag on it and identify the finder and it becomes a signature item. Would this be the correct solution? As long as it is not overboard, I think it would be.

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Here's the front and back of my sig card.  Guess they will suffer the same fate as the Cross's.........

I like your card. I don't think anyone should remove that for rule violation reasons. A signature item should reflect the owner.

Edited by JeepCachr
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Wow Jeep and I seem to be on the same wave length here .. Im kinda scared :rolleyes:

 

But anyway.. If it is a sig item that reflects the personality of the person leaving it I've never had a problem with that. But I would and have removed religous tracts the same as I would remove tracts promoting PETA, homosexuality, Rep vs Democrat etc. You know what they say never discuss religion or politics in mixed company. And you dont get much more mixed than the caching community.

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I definitely agree that many are not solicitous. and I DEFINITELY hope there will never be an actual ban on things in caches with religious connotation. I would not remove a sig item with a religious overtone for any other reason than wanting to keep it. If a sig item wants to represent the owner, that's fine. I have the utmost respect for anyone with religious beliefs, but do not agree with regular old "religious junk" thrown in a cache. My definition of religious junk is cheap little plastic coins, or keychains that are falling apart, that have the quote, "Smile, God loves you!" Or something similar.

 

I would never take out a religious sig item, and drop it in the trash can on the way back to my car!

 

It is true that our money says, "In God we Trust" and that our countries Pledge was actually changed and "under God" was added to it. It personally does not really bother me, but many people think there should be a complete division of Church and state.

 

I mean this as an example only, and realize that it is over the top, but religious literature, and trinkets can be viewed as the same thing as leaving white supremecist literature, and little swastikas. In my opinion, obviously one is worse than the other, but you get my point. Many people take great offese to other people attemting to "convert" them, whether they are actually trying to, or not.

 

So, I will continue to remove religious "propaganda" from caches, but will definitely not disrespect peoples religious sig items. I actually still have all the religious trinkets I have taked from caches. None have ended up in the trash. :rolleyes:

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The cross has significant religous meaning to me but it doesn't have to be a religous item. I wouldn't see anything wrong with that in a cache. Our money says "In God we trust" on it and its not considered a religous item.

 

I do agree with RC on removing condoms, cigarettes, and religous tracts.

Like he said, so since money has "In GOD We Trust" you are going to stop putting where's george dollars in caches??

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Honestly, I see no reason for money to have anything about God on it. It was founded on a specific God, and doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with other people's God's. I think it has a sense of superiority, and does not take into account other people's religious. If I could change it with a snap of my fingers, I would. Thru history, we have always considered ourselves a country with God on our side. While we killed many people from different places, we did it in God's name, and the battles we won, were because of God. I think in today's society, we need to get past that.

 

Yes, I still spend money, and carry it every day in my wallet. No, I don't understand why God is on it. I will probably leave where's george dollars in caches, but I only do that few, and far between anyway.

 

Personally, I think it's a bit strange to have a religious president. When he says anything about God in his speeches, I think it can very much alienate people who don't share his beliefs. Unrelatedly, and there doesn't need to be a response to this, I think his ban on gay marriage is partly for his religious beliefs.

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Off topic: I went to CA in February. We were in the Fairfield area but we decided to take a day trip down the PCH. On the way back we missed an exit and ended up in the middle of San Francisco. I used my GPS to get us back to the highway. As we were going back to the highway we had to go down the street were all the SF government offices were and we ran into a HUGE traffic jam. It took us one hour to go two blocks. We saw all the news trucks on the side of the road (CNN, FOX news, etc). As we passed City Hall we saw about 1000 people in a line and many more standing around holding signs. We didn't realize it was the first day people in CA could have same sex marriages. I was amazed at how many people were there. Everyone was honking their horns and cheering for the people that were finally allowed to get married. It was a truly unique sight to see. I remember seeing one female couple in the line. They were both wearing wedding dresses and they were holding a sign that said, "After 20 years together, we can finally get married".

 

On topic: Uh, I like Team Yatta's sig items. The people that have grabbed them from caches so far seem to really like them. I figure just get a sig item made that you like. If people think they are cool, they will take them, if they don't they will leave them for the next cacher. :tired:

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Like he said, so since money has "In GOD We Trust" you are going to stop putting where's george dollars in caches??

The difference is that having "In God We Trust" on money is totally secondary to the fact that it's money. Black it out with a marker and people will still take it. Find a religious tract that isn't insensitive to someone else's religion, and we'll talk. :tired:

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May as well talk knives in a cache. It'll raise the same hackles in some and not in others. Live and let be. If it offends you (generically speaking), don't trade for it but remember the words of The Penguin... One man's trash is another man's treasure! Wuack wuack wuack wuack!

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May as well talk knives in a cache. It'll raise the same hackles in some and not in others. Live and let be. If it offends you (generically speaking), don't trade for it but remember the words of The Penguin... One man's trash is another man's treasure! Wuack wuack wuack wuack!

I have to say that I am completely with you on this one. I would never remove even a religious tract from a cache - far less any other religious item. Now, if the cache had been stuffed to the top with tracts, yeah. That is a bit too 'in yer face' for me. However, if anyone can't see a tract in a cache without removing it I have to wonder why - I have seen no good reason put forward so far for doing so.

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, or social agendas may not be listed.

I don't see a religious tract as being a solicitation if, for example, it is a general 'get saved' message as opposed to a 'come to THIS church' message. If we all removed stuff we simply don't like from caches they would soon empty out. (even quicker than the 'trading down' problem!)

While free speech extends beyond verbalizations, don't forget that you are also free to NOT LISTEN (READ) but others may wish to.

If you wish to remove such items from YOUR caches then perhaps you aught to ask that they not be left in the first place. However, while I don't place them in my own caches, if any turn up, they can stay there unless some other cacher wishes to take them legitimately. I don't follow baseball, but baseball cards are welcome too. Both items have significance in the lives of the people who place them.

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Lacking in imagination and time, and thinking they are pretty neat these days I have been leaving Kennedy Half dollars as a signature item. On rare occasions when it is a particularly neat cache I have left bi-centennial Kennedy half dollar. Just figured up how much I have spent in these since I started and I could buy another GPS with the money. Oh Well. :huh:

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I don't see a problem with leaving religious symbols, tracts, etc in a cache. My only problem would be if they were "hateful" in nature. It's not so different from the Gideons placing Bibles in hotels. If a religion is so important to the individual leaving the item, then why shouldn't it be a signature item? Who is to say that it wouldn't make another cacher feel good or welcome to find such a thing?

 

Of course, condoms, cigarettes, lighters probably aren't such a good idea. Those are a bit more tricky to explain to a child and some of those items could do more harm if they were found by kids just playing in the woods.

 

BTW olbluesguy love the magnet.

 

shellie of M4S

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If we all removed stuff we simply don't like from caches they would soon empty out.

 

It's more than "simply not liking" the item. It's bringing something that shouldn't be a part of geocaching, into the game. Personally, I don't think it's a big deal, but people of certain faiths COULD find it offensive. When their kid pulls a cross out of the cache and says, "look dad! Jesus!", the parent may dislike that, for whatever reason.

 

My only problem would be if they were "hateful" in nature.

 

I am just being devil's advocate here, but certian people could find religious sybols "hateful". In the past, Christians (as well as other religious groups) have done HORRIBLE things to other groups of people. If for some reason, you were associated with any of these, you could find a religious item very offensive. While I think that would be overreacting somewhat, I still think they don't belong in geocaches.

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If we all removed stuff we simply don't like from caches they would soon empty out.

 

It's more than "simply not liking" the item. It's bringing something that shouldn't be a part of geocaching, into the game. Personally, I don't think it's a big deal, but people of certain faiths COULD find it offensive. When their kid pulls a cross out of the cache and says, "look dad! Jesus!", the parent may dislike that, for whatever reason.

 

I find this group of people you describe to be in a very small minority of the social fabric of society. Most religions teach tolerance of other folks' beliefs. Those that don't teach tolerance, or won't be tolerant; are a class of people I don't care to be associated with in the first place. They rub my fur the wrong way.

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Our avatar says it all. We will find something from the immediate cache site area, add a couple of googlie eyes, maybe paint it, draw a mouth... and finally sign it "CC '0x" where x is the year.

 

Doing this affords us the opportunity to spend a bit more time at the site than we normally would have. It also allows us to be creative and have a little fun. Just this weekend we found an old coyote jaw bone near a cache site. Stick a couple of eyes on that thing and you've got one weird sig item! :huh:

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Here's mine. They're made of shrinky dinks. Keychains.

 

178480_2500.JPG

I really like the shrinky dink idea, but do you draw each one of them? Can you print on the shrinky dink "plastic" ? I guess I'm not so lazy that I couldn't draw them, but I'm bad enough that they would never even resemble each other! :huh:

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Those that don't teach tolerance, or won't be tolerant; are a class of people I don't care to be associated with in the first place.

I really wish there were more people like you. Then there wouldn't be the issue of those trying to push their religion or their beliefs on others. Many of the issues in the news today are because of one group trying to foist their beliefs on others as the only way to live.

 

My personal feelings are tracts don't belong, but personal sig items are fine. The sig item "defines" a person and if religion is part of their life, then so be it. Tracts on the other hand simply can not be viewed any other way than being an advertisement for one's belief. I mean, "Are you saved?" How can that be anything other than an attempt to draw someone in? It belongs no more than a borchure for the local automart.

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Those that don't teach tolerance, or won't be tolerant; are a class of people I don't care to be associated with in the first place.

I really wish there were more people like you. Then there wouldn't be the issue of those trying to push their religion or their beliefs on others. Many of the issues in the news today are because of one group trying to foist their beliefs on others as the only way to live.

 

You believe that most religions don't try to push their beliefs? I'm assuming you're also from a more 'main stream' religion. Being PAGAN, admitting to my religion to many members of the populaton has them foaming at the mouth and a mad dash at who gets to 'save me' first. (note that there's more that I could say here but I don't want to get into a debate)

 

Personally, if there's a bunch of pamphlets in a cache and the cache is cluttered and junky, I'll toss them, REGARDLESS of what they're for... If I get religious info in my caches, I'll toss it, because it's my personal belief that religion should be decided BY us, not FOR us. I'd probably leave something like a little cross, though..

 

 

As for signature items, I've a couple.. CITO keychains and flower pens that I make. I have another one in mind though, next time I get money to afford it.

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You believe that most religions don't try to push their beliefs?

No, "I wish they didn't" is what I was trying to say. Today's groups on abortion, 10 Commandments, gay marriage, The Pledge have me shaking my head as to the current state of things. I'm sure it's been like this in the past, just like with slavery, women's right to vote, alcohol, equal rights, and more. I'm sure it will be the same in the future with other issues.

 

I'm assuming you're also from a more 'main stream' religion.

Actually, I'm not from any religion. I'm atheist. I'm not going to insult anyone by saying I wouldn't rather live in an atheist world but I know spirituality helps a lot of people. At the very least, the perfect world to me would be one where governing laws and concepts were secular, where people understood that others may and can believe differently, and folks allowed others to come to their own conclusions.

 

I feel geocaching would benefit if everyone realized that it's a secular sport that has room for individual expression without any agenda.

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What is the etiquette for sig items? Are they to be left in the cache for the cache owner, or do they become general cache property (and anyone could trade for them)?

 

I plan on dropping some off in Northern Minnesota this weekend!

What caches?

Edited by SnowLeopard
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Here is the prototype item. Yes we stole the idea from SBPhishy! We played around with different shrinky dink papers to finally get one that wouldn't smear like this one did. It is the only pic I have though.

What paper did you use? All I could find in my area at the local craft stores was the shrinky dink book, alot of money for 6 sheets (or so I thought). I looked on the internet and found the refills, but with a little more looking I ran across some on e-bay that is a different brand that can be used with an ink jet printer. I just ordered and should have them next week. I couldn't find that particular brand anyplace else (Invent It! Print and Shrink) so I decided to go with what was on e-bay, it should last me a while.

 

I'm definately interested in this for a sig item. Yours looks like it was printed as well (at least the GPS does), so maybe you could point me in the right direction.

 

Thanks!

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I'm definately interested in this for a sig item. Yours looks like it was printed as well (at least the GPS does), so maybe you could point me in the right direction

 

shrinkydinks.com

 

The one in the pic was on the regular shrinky dink paper and it smeared (as you can probably see). Shrinky dink just came out with paper that can be put trhough the inkjet. The final model is alot better and has no smears!

Good luck! :D

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I'm definately interested in this for a sig item. Yours looks like it was printed as well (at least the GPS does), so maybe you could point me in the right direction

 

shrinkydinks.com

 

The one in the pic was on the regular shrinky dink paper and it smeared (as you can probably see). Shrinky dink just came out with paper that can be put trhough the inkjet. The final model is alot better and has no smears!

Good luck! :D

Thank you! Now I just have to design something! ;)

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What is the etiquette for sig items? Are they to be left in the cache for the cache owner, or do they become general cache property (and anyone could trade for them)?

 

I plan on dropping some off in Northern Minnesota this weekend!

What caches?

I only had time for two caches over Easter weekend., Doh! But I placed one in Fergus Falls, MN. Way west from your neck of the woods. I am hoping to head up by Duluth this Fall. Nothing beat northern Duluth in the Fall!

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Those that don't teach tolerance, or won't be tolerant; are a class of people I don't care to be associated with in the first place.

I really wish there were more people like you. Then there wouldn't be the issue of those trying to push their religion or their beliefs on others. Many of the issues in the news today are because of one group trying to foist their beliefs on others as the only way to live.

 

You believe that most religions don't try to push their beliefs? I'm assuming you're also from a more 'main stream' religion. Being PAGAN, admitting to my religion to many members of the populaton has them foaming at the mouth and a mad dash at who gets to 'save me' first. (note that there's more that I could say here but I don't want to get into a debate)

 

Personally, if there's a bunch of pamphlets in a cache and the cache is cluttered and junky, I'll toss them, REGARDLESS of what they're for... If I get religious info in my caches, I'll toss it, because it's my personal belief that religion should be decided BY us, not FOR us. I'd probably leave something like a little cross, though..

 

 

As for signature items, I've a couple.. CITO keychains and flower pens that I make. I have another one in mind though, next time I get money to afford it.

Just for clarity's sake, I didn't say they don't try to push theirs as The One Faith. They all do. Otherwise their faith would be pointless now wouldn't it? I did state they teach tolerance. There is a big difference between the two. Dropping tracts off is a push. Using a religous symbolism as a signature item is not... and that is what I was arguing for.

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A big thank you for those that are attemting to keep this thread on-topic. :D

 

Recently, I began leaving sculpey coins in some of the caches I've found. Mine has the public domain Gx logo on one side and my avatar and SBELL111 on the other. They are certainly not high art, as my skills are basically non-existant in this area.

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71423f7c-58ef-4038-9435-bba2ca1215c7.jpg

 

Here is a proto-type for my sig item. I have been leaving a 100 Yen coin but went to a 50 Yen coin because of the center hole. I'm still looking for a good circle cutter for the shrink plastic. The one I used for this sample isn't nearly accurate enough so the buttons have some rough edges. The serial number button needs some work but the concept is working so far.

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Uno Mas: I use that Inkjet printer shrinky dink stuff too. It works great. I have no artistic talent when It comes to actually drawing stuff. Just remember to spray the post shrunk dinks with a clear sealer, other wise, any moisture will smear the ink. Oh, and if you are going to put a hole in them, use a a standard hole punch before you shrink them.

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2899e472-cbb5-485f-be61-53426bf6894e.jpg

 

Here is the prototype item. Yes we stole the idea from SBPhishy! We played around with different shrinky dink papers to finally get one that wouldn't smear like this one did. It is the only pic I have though.

why not use a pic of the water tower on those? Ya know the one on Cross Street... looks rather suggestive. I do like the keychain.

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why not use a pic of the water tower on those? Ya know the one on Cross Street... looks rather suggestive. I do like the keychain

 

A fellow Ypsituckian I see !? I thought about the tower but I used a pic of that for a label for my latest batch of home brewed beer. I'll see if I can post a pic. I sent it in to Brew Your Own magazine for a contest but didn't win. Oh well! Are you still in Ypsi or are you a EMU grad who moved on?

 

http://www.michmarkers.com/startup.asp?startpage=L1591.htm

 

The water tower for those interested. You can imagine the nicknames the locals have :(

 

edit: to add link

Edited by Two Geeks and a GPS
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