How Much Do You Tell?

February 21, 2004

My team hid it's first cache yesterday and it was approved. This afternoon I got email from a team that said they had no luck finding it. A friend of mine went to look for it and she called me from her cell phone at the cache spot to let me know she was having trouble. I gave her a hint and she found it. She said my coords were right on and the cache had been about one foot from where she had been looking.

Because of this, I raised the difficulty level of the cache.

But now what? I hate to give a hint that completely gives it away (ie - look under the yellow bush) but I don't want people to not look for the cache because it is a hard find.

We checked our coords a few times when we placed it and everything seemed fine. Should I move the cache? Should I give some kind of hint? Should I just leave it alone and see how many people can find it as is?

Sorry for all the questions. It's our first cache and we want it to be a success.

THANKS!

1.6k · February 21, 2004

Put in some kind of hint, but maybe make it sort of a riddle. But having an encrypted hint is never bad...

February 21, 2004

I would wait a while before I changed its rating. We have a cache that people either see fifty feet away, or can not find at all. I think it more about thinking like a cacher than anything else. Keep up the good job.

February 21, 2004

An encrypted hint leaves the searcher with the option to read it or not so you therefor don't have to place it in your main description.

Best of luck with it and with your next ones too.....

February 21, 2004

I checked the cache page, it looks like a fun challenge. I wouldn't change anything till you get some more feedback.

I wonder why no one has logged a "not found".

February 21, 2004

I wondered why no one logged a DNF either. Maybe they wanted to get email from me verifying it was there before they logged a DNF?

I raised the difficulty one star. I am going to leave it alone for now. If no one else finds it, then I will either take a spoiler photo or add a really obvious hint. :lol:

6.4k · February 21, 2004

I think you should leave it as-is. Your difficulty suggests that an experienced cacher should expect to spend up to 4-6hr AT THE CACHE SITE searching. I doubt anyone has put that effort into it. I've found that a large portion of cachers decrypt the hint and use that right from the get go, even thou most won't admit to it. If you're gonna put a spoiler hint in, you might as well bump the difficulty down to a 1-1.5.

Oh, and it's a shame nobody has logged a DNF. Those are usually the best logs to read.

Edited February 21, 2004 by Mopar

February 21, 2004

I can understand why you would want to do as you suggest but think twice before you do. You have obviously done a great job of hiding the cache - give it a good chance first, before adding a spoiler. The logs you will get for a good hide are much more satisfying than a lot of 'easy find' entries. In addition, you will generate a reputation as a good cache placer which will stand you in good stead when you hide your next ones. Don't dumb them down just coz of a few 'not found' reports since you know it is there to be found. Sounds like you have a winner on your hands. Let it be, it will be well worth it.

38.2k · February 21, 2004

Depends on what your intent is. If you want it to be difficult, raise the difficulty (as you already did) and leave it at that. If you want people to find it, provide a good hint.

Personally, I make my hints a dead giveaway. I place my caches to be found, not to fool the hunter (well OK, there is one exception). I assume (probably naively) that the hunter won't decrypt it until they're at their wits end and ready to give up, so I rate the difficulty assuming that the hunter hasn't decrypted the clue.

Edited February 21, 2004 by briansnat

February 21, 2004

Personally, I make my hints a dead giveaway. I place my caches to be found, not to fool the hunter (well OK, there is one exception). I assume (probably naively) that the hunter won't decrypt it until they're at their wits end and ready to give up, so I rate the difficulty assuming that the hunter hasn't decrypted the clue.

I have decided to leave it AS IS. I am not going to mess with it anymore. If a ton of people log DNF's, then I will consider adding a hint or spoiler photo. I thought about it and I believe it will be more fun if it's a hard find. If I wanted to make a cache and dash, I would have. :lol:

And BTW, Brian, YOU'RE the one that did that lame cache???? For shame! :lol: It's an ATROCITY (seems to be the word of the day today!). LOL!

Edited February 21, 2004 by Imajika

February 21, 2004

Sometimes you would think you will have to go meet the cacher, and lead them in by the hand. I would wait for awhile to see how others do, some people are just impatient and if they don't find it in 2 minutes they give up. Just my opinion...

February 21, 2004

i would wait a while to see if someone else finds it..

9.4k · February 21, 2004

I wondered why no one logged a DNF either. Maybe they wanted to get email from me verifying it was there before they logged a DNF?

I raised the difficulty one star. I am going to leave it alone for now. If no one else finds it, then I will either take a spoiler photo or add a really obvious hint.

You'd be surprised at why people don't log DNF. I had one guy argue with me (through email) about it when I pointed out that his found log mentioned several trips to look for my cache, but there isn't even one DNF from anyone on it. He didn't want me to think the cache was missing, of all things. How would he know if it was missing? He couldn't find it, it may have been! DNF logs are part of your history. Many times the best stories in that history come from DNF logs. Especially when they are "so sure" the cache is missing and someone finds it the next day.

4k · February 21, 2004

I've found that a large portion of cachers decrypt the hint and use that right from the get go, even thou most won't admit to it.

I'm guilty of that.....heck, I'm a noob, so I need all the help I can get........and I've logged a DNF on all of my caches I didn't find....one of them :lol:

1.6k · February 21, 2004

Usually, when it comes to hints, I'll read them quickly while I'm planning a caching trip, but then I'll print out the cache page with the hint decrypted. I then try to get to the cache, but then I usually end up using the hint. On several hunts, relying on the hint too much almost made me get a DNF...

February 21, 2004

I'll decrypt the hint before I go out if:

1) the cache description indicates that the hide is in a heavily muggle-invested area. In that case I want to get in, grab the cache, and get out before someone wonders why I'm wandering around the area.

2) the hint is a full paragraph. If the hider doesn't realize that the searcher may be trying to decode the hint with a pencil and paper in a rainstorm or blizzard and gives you the complete history of the cache, I'd rather find out before I leave my computer. Generally, in this case I'll decrypt and read the hint, but I won't take the decrypted copy with me. I started doing this after decrypting 4 lines of code in the woods while battling mosquitoes only to have the hint tell me where to park and what trail to take to get to where I was.

Otherwise, I won't decrypt the hint until I've looked for the cache for 30 to 45 minutes. By then I appreciate a really good hint.

RichardMoore

February 21, 2004

Don't mess with a good thing. The caches I remember and get the most satisfaction from are those that require some physical or mental exercise. In the long run, i think you'll find most will like it. Yes there will be some DNFs, whether recorded or not, but that just gets me back for another visit, more fun, and a greater sense of satisfaction from the eventual find. Keep the good challenging ones coming.

2.7k · February 21, 2004

How much do I tell, well that depends on what cache it is and the experience of the cachers. If its a veteran I'll give them a little help if they ask for it. And for

the new comers as much as possible so they don't get scared off, and most newcomers never go for those that I have in the hills.

Maybe I'll have to go to Denver and look for the loot and see what its all about.

1.3k · February 21, 2004

On this cache, which was my first multi, I hardly told them anything!

The Plague Of Vague

Oooooh Scary!!!!

February 21, 2004

Your difficulty suggests that an experienced cacher should expect to spend up to 4-6hr AT THE CACHE SITE searching.

:lol:

3 stars = 4 to 6 hours?

At the cache site?

For a traditional cache??

For an experienced cacher???

38.2k · February 21, 2004

3 stars = 4 to 6 hours?
At the cache site?

For a traditional cache??

For an experienced cacher???

From the cache rating system:

3 stars - Challenging. An experienced cache hunter will find this challenging, and it could take up a good portion of an afternoon.

February 21, 2004

3 stars = 4 to 6 hours?
At the cache site?

For a traditional cache??

For an experienced cacher???

From the cache rating system:

3 stars - Challenging. An experienced cache hunter will find this challenging, and it could take up a good portion of an afternoon.

I read that as including the time it takes to get to the cache site. As in "a two hour hike each way." Not time actually at the site. 4 to 6 hours is a long time to spend in one relatively small area.

RichardMoore

38.2k · February 21, 2004

I read that as including the time it takes to get to the cache site. As in "a two hour hike each way." Not time actually at the site. 4 to 6 hours is a long time to spend in one relatively small area.

The length of the hike is factored into the terrain rating, not the difficulty rating. The difficulty rating is how hard it is to find once you are actually at the cache site. For example here is the definition of 3 star terrain:

Not suitable for small children. (The average adult or older child should be OK depending on physical condition. Terrain is likely off-trail. May have one or more of the following: some overgrowth, some steep elevation changes,or more than a 2 mile hike.)

Edited February 21, 2004 by briansnat

6.4k · February 21, 2004

3 stars = 4 to 6 hours?
At the cache site?

For a traditional cache??

For an experienced cacher???

From the cache rating system:

3 stars - Challenging. An experienced cache hunter will find this challenging, and it could take up a good portion of an afternoon.

Right, what Brian said. And since the cache being discussed here is 3 and 1/2 stars, that places the difficulty locating the cache once you get to the area between the 3 star brian quoted, and a 4 star which is:

Difficult. A real challenge for the experienced cache hunter - may require special skills or knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days / trips to complete.

So, on a properly rated 3.5 star difficulty, I would consider finding the cache in less then an hour of searching pure luck, and would spend at least 6hrs searching before even considering a hint.

February 21, 2004

It's a matter of different ways of looking at the ratings.

I use the "difficulty" rating as an overview of the cache, combining getting to the site and the actual search. To me, the "terrain" rating is just for condition of the trail. "Do I really want to try this after a freezing rain?" sort of thing.

This may not be the correct, proper, or generally accepted way of looking at it, but it works for me. And isn't that why they're called "guidelines" instead of rules?

Note: The only complaints I've had in rating caches that I placed was that I rated one too high (I could have sworn that that creek was going to get bigger when the snow melted! :lol: )

RichardMoore

3.1k · February 21, 2004

I leave a decrypted hint and on my more difficult to access caches I make the hint such that they pretty much can count on finding it.

4.1k · February 21, 2004

But now what? I hate to give a hint that completely gives it away (ie - look under the yellow bush) but I don't want people to not look for the cache because it is a hard find.

You might try using a hint that is not a dead give-a-way. For instance, "It is near something" or maybe "It is not at ground level" or perhaps "It is some direction (N,S,E,W) from some object". Not a 'dead give-a-way' but it may help those that are having a difficult time with the cache.

Just an Oldfart's opinion.

John

3k · February 21, 2004

My team hid it's first cache yesterday and it was approved. This afternoon I got email from a team that said they had no luck finding it. A friend of mine went to look for it and she called me from her cell phone at the cache spot to let me know she was having trouble. I gave her a hint and she found it. She said my coords were right on and the cache had been about one foot from where she had been looking.

Because of this, I raised the difficulty level of the cache.

But now what? I hate to give a hint that completely gives it away (ie - look under the yellow bush) but I don't want people to not look for the cache because it is a hard find.

We checked our coords a few times when we placed it and everything seemed fine. Should I move the cache? Should I give some kind of hint? Should I just leave it alone and see how many people can find it as is?

You report a friend stated the coordinates were correct. After receiving feedback, you decided to increase the difficulty rating a little. The cache now has three difficulty stars. From the logs, one person indicated they spent an hour looking for the cache.

Sounds like you did very well to me. Congratulations on placing an above-average cache! Forget about adding a hint. 3 difficulty stars is supposed to present a moderate challenge to the seeker. In my opinion, one should reasonably expect (and budget) to spend an hour or two searching for your cache or any similarly rated cache. And just think how self-satisfied people will feel when they find it much faster than that.

Time for a slightly off-topic rant: Why are so many geocachers unwilling to make an effort appropriate to a cache's rating? Why are so many geocachers unwilling to graciously accept the occasional failure? Why is it the cache owner's fault if someone fails to find the cache, especially if it has been previously/recently found?

Why don't people realize that the reward is in finding the cache, not in merely adding another find to the count? I'm sick and tired of receiving e-mails from people asking for full details about "difficult" caches they haven't yet sought, or that they failed to find after making a minimal effort, or even failed to find after several exhaustive searches that resulted in not even one DNF being logged to the cache page. I receive several such e-mails each and every week.

Could someone please point me to the passage in the Guidelines that "Guarantees a find on every cache, in under 20 minutes."

Edited February 21, 2004 by BassoonPilot

February 21, 2004

The general guideline I follow is that if the cache site is pretty easy to get to, for instance, a 1/10th of a mile amble through a city park, you don't get a hint. On the other hand, if I've made somebody walk a long ways and then sort their way through sticker bushes to get there, then they deserve a hint.

And here is my slightly less off-topic rant: It irritates me when people's hints are not germane to the actual cache site. I don't need a hint that tells me which trail head is closest--I've already figured that out by then.

BTW, I always decrypt the hint from home if there is substantial snow on the ground. I figure I need all the help I can get. If not, I don't. Since I don't print out the cache sheets, this has caused me to not find a few. Then I get home and realize I probably could've found them with the hint.

1.4k · February 21, 2004

<<SNIP>>
Sounds like you did very well to me. Congratulations on placing an above-average cache! Forget about adding a hint. 3 difficulty stars is supposed to present a moderate challenge to the seeker. In my opinion, one should reasonably expect (and budget) to spend an hour or two searching for your cache or any similarly rated cache. And just think how self-satisfied people will feel when they find it much faster than that.

<<SNIP>>

I would like to also add my congratulations

It took me three tries, another person and about 6 hours to find this Cache It was a great feeling to at last find it. Much better than finding it after a 10 minute search. It was earned. Not a gift.

February 21, 2004

Here is a link to a thread about writing good hints from a few weeks ago. My favorite hints are the ones that have a variety of levels of assistance to choose from BEFORE decoding like this one

[Waypoint] Puvbanaguhf ivetvavphf; benatr gvr
[Final cache: Location] Fpnaqvanivn be fcehpr?

[Final cache: Getting] [A fubeg svfuvat cbyr fvk srrg hc]

from this cache. For what it's worth, I DNF this cache twice, but chose not to use any of the hints because I like puzzles and it's close to home. However, I LOVE the hint format. If I'd been travelling or if the cache took a really long time to get to I would definitely have used the hint, and I would have been happy that it didn't give away the exact location too quickly.

February 21, 2004

From reading the various threads in this furum, it seems to me that some people attribute such a huge importance to 'number of finds' that they decrypt hints, read all logs and look at photos before they set off. To me this cheapens the value of the find. There should be separate classes of award depending on the amount of help you took to succeed.

In my own, one, cache hide, I didn't give any additional hints so if you can log a find, you deserve the credit. Having said that, I think I was overgenerous with the upfront clues so that it isn't proving as difficult as I'd meant it to be. The next one is going to be a stinker! I defy anyone to log it in a days batch of 30 or 40.

February 22, 2004

I make sure to give them so much flowery prose and overflowing amounts of very specific information that they would be ashamed to post a DNF.

See

February 23, 2004

I sometimes post a hint. When I do I usually make it so the cacher has actually think about the clue; like a play on words. I don't ever outright tell where the cache can be found. That would just ruin the fun.

When I resort to reading a hint I want it to be just that, a hint. I do not want a dead give-away.

That is my opinion, such as it is.

Happy caching and stuff!

1.3k · February 24, 2004

Personally, I want to find caches that I look for, and I want people to find caches that I place. Some people are able to find more difficult caches easily due to experience, luck, whatever. So, in order to keep the game interesting for those people, there needs to be a range of difficulty in caches. You just can't find every cache. If you want people to find the cache, leave a hint that will give it away. If you want people to be stumped by it, make it tough and don't leave a hint at all.

The thing to remember is that you will get people complaining if the cache is too easy, and complaining if it is too hard. So, do what you want and forget about what other people think of your cache. It's your cache, not theirs.

3k · February 24, 2004

Personally, I want to find caches that I look for, and I want people to find caches that I place. Some people are able to find more difficult caches easily due to experience, luck, whatever. So, in order to keep the game interesting for those people, there needs to be a range of difficulty in caches. You just can't find every cache. If you want people to find the cache, leave a hint that will give it away. If you want people to be stumped by it, make it tough and don't leave a hint at all.
The thing to remember is that you will get people complaining if the cache is too easy, and complaining if it is too hard. So, do what you want and forget about what other people think of your cache. It's your cache, not theirs.

How about if people learn to select caches based on the cache's rating and their ability?

1.3k · February 24, 2004

That would be great. Unfortunately the difficulty ratings can never be an accurate rating system. I have had all kinds of trouble finding 2 star caches, having to return several times (yes I log DNF's). Then there are the 4 star caches I find in a few minutes. I have used ClayJar's rating system to determine the ratings for my caches. It usually requires a tweak of a half star in one direction or the other. Still, even rating systems like that can't account for every possible situation. One of my caches requires crossing a levee. Because it technically has an elevation change, it bumps up the rating of an otherwise easy cache. This brings up the question of the distance from the cache at which you consider the terrain to be included in the ratings. In areas like mine where caching isn't as popular yet, you take what you can get. I look for just about every cache, regardless of the rating. At the same time, I don't complain to anyone if I can't find it. I just wait a while and try again some other time. The caches one chooses to find are limited by the available caches in their area. If someone lives in a place with nothing but 4 and 5 star caches, they are going to have to hunt them, or not cache at all. I have seriously slacked off hunting new caches, because almost all of the ones that have popped up in the last few months have not been cache types that I enjoy. (Nothing to do with difficulty ratings, just personal preferences.)

February 25, 2004

I'd not worry if just one or two persons cannot find it. I like caches that sometimes cannot be found because of good (challenging) hiding technique. I'd say your first hide is a success!

February 25, 2004

Personally, I want to find caches that I look for, and I want people to find caches that I place. Some people are able to find more difficult caches easily due to experience, luck, whatever. So, in order to keep the game interesting for those people, there needs to be a range of difficulty in caches. You just can't find every cache. If you want people to find the cache, leave a hint that will give it away. If you want people to be stumped by it, make it tough and don't leave a hint at all.
The thing to remember is that you will get people complaining if the cache is too easy, and complaining if it is too hard. So, do what you want and forget about what other people think of your cache. It's your cache, not theirs.

One more thing -- because I just saw this response.

I agree -- it is critical that the difficulty level be correctly stated, and that the hider take time to get it right. This is not a trivial issue. We have folks in my area with one star caches that have four stages and take 45 minutes to find, and others with three or four star caches that I have found in 30 seconds.

February 25, 2004

Sometimes this has to do with experience as well. The first time you see a <insert particularly evil camouflage idea here> you might be stumped. If you become familiar with the concept, you end up checking those possibilities shortly after arriving.

It's gotten so that we sometimes arrive at the parking area and say to each other, 'I bet it's a ...' and been correct rather more often than not. But some of those ideas kicked our butts the first time we tried to find them...

6.5k · February 26, 2004

Leave your cache as you want it as long as YOU feel it is correctly rated and described. I have one cache with a 5/2.5 that hasn't even been looked for yet except for one newer cacher who found it this week. There is a fair description but no hint. He actually found the hardest stages on his own, but needed some help for others. I can't wait to buy him a beer at tomorrow night's event. :huh:

On the other hand this one took two visits to the site and a hint from the owner to find.There isn't much to go by on the cache page (or so it seems :huh: ).

February 26, 2004

Congratulations on a great cache! You should be proud that your cache is that hard to find. Don’t change a thing! You will find that your more challenging caches will be remembered by those who did find it and by those who didn’t. Keep setting challenging caches and you will gain more respect by placing a few hard ones than if you set a bunch of “no brainers”.

How Much Do You Tell?

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