Micros On Private Property

3.8k · February 6, 2004

A question was posed to me recently about the "new wave" of caches hidden in parking lots of stores such as Target, Wal-Mart, etc. In the gc.com guidelines, it states:

Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there!

That begs the question, would the parking lot, or the border of the lot, be considered private property and the hider responsible for getting permission?

I'm on the fence on this one... need someone to push me (gently!) one way or the other.

Thanks!

February 6, 2004

I don't think so. It is private property but it is Public Domain and I really don't think stores would mind you bringing extra people to their parking lot. If it is close to the store I would ask but if it is way out where you won't usually block parking spots for customers I think it should be fine.

February 6, 2004

I've found a couple of these. It kinda bothers me not knowing if the placer asked permission or not, and there I am lifting up access panels to their parking lot lights or walking around behind their building scoping out the downspouts. Always seems a little weird. It may be public domain property but it's still privately owned, and I doubt that the loading dock light stanchions would be considered publicly accessible. I haven't gotten rousted for any finds/hunts yet, but .....................

2.4k · February 6, 2004

Well, technically it is public property, and technically you're only really "invited" onto the property to shop in the stores......although, I think this has been discussed before, and the general consensus was they're "OK" unless the store specifically requests that a cache not be there.....

February 6, 2004

I'd only do one if it's on a holiday and the store's closed or something, it'd be pretty weird to see someone open up a street light panel, take out a notebook, leave a note, and then hide it again...People might think you're in the Illuminati or something

Not like I am in it... >_> *runs*

Edit: typo

Edited February 6, 2004 by Odwolda

February 6, 2004

It may be public domain property but it's still privately owned, and I doubt that the loading dock light stanchions would be considered publicly accessible.

Thats why I added the part about being way awayfrom the store.

February 6, 2004

It's private property. No doubt about that. It is not "Public Domain", or "Public Property"...unless the city owns the parking lot, but that's usually not the case.

The Targets and Walmarts bought that land, and while they'd like to attract people to visit their stores, they have the final say how their parking lot can is used.

Even if you got their permission, it might start bordering on a "commercial" cache status if they thought is it might attract customers. It's a fuzzy area.

George

24.7k · February 6, 2004

Businesses need to be good neighbors.

How many times have you stopped in a store you would never have bothered with if you were not out and about looking for caches?

Is it private? Yes. Is it public? Yes, by invitation.

Is it reasonable to do more than have the guideline quoted? Not really. There are probably 100 million parcels in the USA and countless more around the world. It will be all the local organizations and listing sites can do to keep track of the major land owners who have the ability to have more than one cache on their site.

Edited February 6, 2004 by Renegade Knight

1.3k · February 6, 2004

Boy am I glad someone brought this up. I tend to avoid caches like that because I don't want to have to explain myself in the event I am "caught" accessing the cache. I can almost sympathize with Lessenergy's viewpoint of only seeking caches that have positive proof of permission. Obviously, there aren't many caches like that to find, so I don't adhere to that kind of policy. Still, I would feel a lot more comfortable knowing that there is no way I'm going to get in any kind of trouble or be hassled by cops or security while hunting a cache. This also is wishfull thinking, but anyone who has found caches in a few different areas knows that they vary greatly in the amount of privacy the actual location affords. Allmost all of the caches placed within the last couple of months in my area are in highly exposed locations. I'll get to them eventually, but I'm in no hurry to throw caution to the wind. It almost seems like there is a competition between hiders to see who can place the most "risky" cache. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) Eventually, someone will place another cache of the type I enjoy most, and all will be right with the world.

February 6, 2004

Another thought. If one subscribes to the "Frisbee Rule", a Target or WalMart parking lot would probably be off limits.

If the manager catches you playing Frisbee, or basketball, or skateboarding, they are well within their rights to have you "escorted" off of their property.

George

February 6, 2004

I'd say 50% of my caches have been micros on private property. What about utility poles on public sidewalks? What about signs? They are private property. No harm, no foul in my book.

February 6, 2004

With all the geocachers from all walks of life out there there must be someone who works at Wal-Mart who can find out. Any volunteers?

Also, I don't think that you can equate an adult geocaching to a kid on a skateboard. Unless the geocacher is running at top speed down the sidewalk in front of the store while looking at his GPSr instead of where he's going. The "Frisbee Rule" is a judgement call on the part of the store manager, and most of them would take the easy way out and leave you alone if you are not bothering anyone (read "paying customers").

RichardMoore

3.1k · February 6, 2004

WalMart allows trailer trash to spend the night in their parking lots. We do when we travel. Do you think they'd mind a film canister out there?

1.3k · February 6, 2004

On the other hand, geocaching could easily be considered "bothering people". You're wandering around the lot looking at some strange device and pulling things out of hiding places and then rehiding them. I'd guess the real question is "Does the store manager suspect you of hiding drugs or explosives?"

Even if you decide that you have the right to place the cache without asking permission, I also think you have a responsibility to explain to the manager what you're using their lot for.

3.1k · February 6, 2004

When it's a small business close by I've always asked and never been denied. When it's a huge business there usually isn't anyone you can ask.

4k · February 6, 2004

I can't speak for other states, but Kansas has "No Loitering" laws. Businesses (such as Target, WalMart, Lowe's, etc. can post signs and have people fined for loitering if caught on the premises (parking lots) after business hours, and even during business hours, if they can prove to the judge that the person was on the premises without the intent of patronizing the business. Therefore, after business hours, you can be fined, arrested, and have your vehicle towed away if you are caught "lurking" or "loitering" around the parking lot. During business hours would be the same, however, not as likely depending on the amount of people visiting the business, as you may tend to blend in with the crowd.

That, and the fact that I don't really care for urban micros, is why I won't place any micro (or traditional) in the parking lot at WallyWorld (or any other business such as that).

February 6, 2004

you could even claim that you are patronizing them by placing the cache at WallyWorld. They sell GPSr which is used to geocaching. Both Garmin and Magglan support geocaching so why shouldn't walmart!?

(I'm not relly serious about this, although it is a thought, so no flames please)

Edited February 6, 2004 by wildearth2001

3.1k · February 6, 2004

WalMart allows camping in their parking lots across the nation. They brag about it.

February 6, 2004

WalMart allows camping in their parking lots across the nation. They brag about it.

Do you have to contact them in advance to have a lay over in their lot? I know they don't have hook ups, but anyway to hook up to water?

F_M

2.2k · February 6, 2004

in michigan the parking lot of a store is considered private property. if you are in a car accident on the property, the police will not write up a report. not even for insurance purposes.

February 6, 2004

A question was posed to me recently about the "new wave" of caches hidden in parking lots of stores such as Target, Wal-Mart, etc. In the gc.com guidelines, it states:

Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there!

That begs the question, would the parking lot, or the border of the lot, be considered private property and the hider responsible for getting permission?

I'm on the fence on this one... need someone to push me (gently!) one way or the other.

Thanks!

Public or private....it belongs to whoever is paying the taxes on the land, which can be found out at the local courthouse.

February 6, 2004

Why would anyone want to place a cache in a place like this anyway? I always find it rather annoying myself.

I'd much prefer caches in public parking areas not be allowed. A geocaching black eye waiting to happen.

As always, just my opinion.

4k · February 6, 2004

WalMart allows camping in their parking lots across the nation. They brag about it.

Not in the stores in my neck of the woods. They are all open 24 hours, but still have signs posted prohibiting loitering, and do enforce it.

Edited February 6, 2004 by Sparky-Watts

February 6, 2004

in michigan the parking lot of a store is considered private property. if you are in a car accident on the property, the police will not write up a report. not even for insurance purposes.

same here in AZ. some cops try to pull people over for those dumb little stop signs in parking lots but then the "offender" always wins in court

February 6, 2004

WalMart allows trailer trash to spend the night in their parking lots.

Walmart allows trailer trash to spend the day in their stores too. I went to one recently for some reason and could not believe it. It was like somebody took a K-Mart and said, "how can we make this place more tacky?"

Parking lot light pole micros are just so lame. Lame lame lame. There is no reason why anyone would want to be there unless they had to be, and once you've seen one you've seen them all. I suggest using a new Acronym when leaving your logs of them. YAPLM.

2.3k · February 6, 2004

WalMart allows camping in their parking lots across the nation. They brag about it.

Hmmmmmm.......that would have been helpful back in the day for the Deadheads.....

On topic: if the store owns it, the parking lot is PRIVATE property.

1.3k · February 6, 2004

Yet Another Parking Lot Micro

OK, so do I win a prize?

3.1k · February 6, 2004

WalMart allows camping in their parking lots across the nation. They brag about it.

Hmmmmmm.......that would have been helpful back in the day for the Deadheads.....

On topic: if the store owns it, the parking lot is PRIVATE property.

Back in the day of deadheads? They are still out there.

Actually wally world still brags about it and you might be surprised at how many RV's spend the night at WalMart. Many of those things cost more than my home.

It is on topic btw, just pointing out that WalMart probably wouldn't have a problem with a film canister as they don't have problems with a dozen or so campers every night.

And of course a thread like this brings out those who's favorite word is lame. Again to beat this dead horse once more.

Don't hunt what you don't want.

2.3k · February 6, 2004

Back in the day of deadheads? They are still out there.

Actually wally world still brags about it and you might be surprised at how many RV's spend the night at WalMart. Many of those things cost more than my home.

It is on topic btw, just pointing out that WalMart probably wouldn't have a problem with a film canister as they don't have problems with a dozen or so campers every night.

And of course a thread like this brings out those who's favorite word is lame. Again to beat this dead horse once more.

Don't hunt what you don't want.

It's not the same tho really, is it?....not since Garcia died anyways...

I agree they most likely wouldn't mind the cache. We don't have (or at least we haven't run across) alot of parking lot caches around here so i don't know as I would call them lame....

Edited February 6, 2004 by Corp Of Discovery

3.8k · February 6, 2004

Actually wally world still brags about it and you might be surprised at how many RV's spend the night at WalMart.

I wonder if they allow tents?

...And I enjoy sleeping under the stars.

Is that permissible?

2k · February 6, 2004

WalMart allows trailer trash to spend the night in their parking lots.

Walmart allows trailer trash to spend the day in their stores too. I went to one recently for some reason and could not believe it. It was like somebody took a K-Mart and said, "how can we make this place more tacky?"

Parking lot light pole micros are just so lame. Lame lame lame. There is no reason why anyone would want to be there unless they had to be, and once you've seen one you've seen them all. I suggest using a new Acronym when leaving your logs of them. YAPLM.

This is stated at straight up neutral.

If the cache is so lame why would you be logging it?

Not starting anything, and I haven't read the rest of the thread, but the duplicity of your statement just compelled me to post this.

Edit: Here is a link to the freecampgrounds.com "banned" Walmarts page. In a nut shell permission to stay at a Wal mart parking lot is subject to the managers approval.

The rules are simple, be a good neighbor, don't put your awning out and make it obvious what you are doing, and don't overstay your welcome.

Edited February 6, 2004 by rusty_tlc

24.7k · February 6, 2004

Speaking of WalMart this is national return your cart to it's place month. Man...I wonder what piece of knowledge was lost when that tidbit was shared with me by the evening news.

3.8k · February 6, 2004

This is a good topic/debate. Over 30 posts and nobody's fighting.

Thanks, everyone.

You may proceed.

February 6, 2004

Store parking lots are private property.

I'm sure many managers have bigger fish to fry than a hide-a-key on a lamp post, HOWEVER...

This is where the issue lies, IMO: It's the *perception* of geocaching that we should be more worried about. At some point, some person will call the cops about suspicious behavior. In the post-911 world, odd behavior is noticed and reported. This will bring another negative light to geocaching.

Another point: I have done 2 of these caches. I probably won't go out of my way to do more, because I consider them lame. If the public thinks this is what geocaching is about, then GEOCACHING=LAME.

February 6, 2004

That begs the question, would the parking lot, or the border of the lot, be considered private property and the hider responsible for getting permission?

The cache approvers can tell that it is in a private lot. If they are letting them go through, I would not worry about it.

Hide like that around here would catch a lot of flak. Not from property owners, but from the local caching community.

-WR

3.8k · February 6, 2004

The cache approvers can tell that it is in a private lot. If they are letting them go through, I would not worry about it.

A good point. This brings another question, if the approvers are approving, does this mean these are ok--that in the eyes of gc.com this does not constitute private property?

38.2k · February 6, 2004

n michigan the parking lot of a store is considered private property. if you are in a car accident on the property, the police will not write up a report. not even for insurance purposes

That doesn't make any sense at all. If someone breaks into your car in the lot, will the police write a report? If my wife beats me up (again ), is it OK as long as she does it on our property? Some states have odd laws, but this sounds real weird. I had to fill out a police report, for insurance purposes, when a tree fell on my car in my driveway.

Store parking lots are private property.

As far as a mall lot, or shopping center lot being private property, it is. I don't think there is any debate about that. But some states (if not all) consider them a "public accomodation", or something similar. This puts them in a grey area. Laws may vary from state, to state, but the public accomodation status is why a mall can't ban people based on race, sex, etc... I can refuse to allow an Italian into my house, but a mall owner doesn't have the same prerogative. It's also why, in some states, they allow political campaiging and leafleting in malls.

Should we ask permission to place a cache on mall property? Probably. But is it the same as putting a cache on old Mr. Zimmer's land without his permission? Definitely not.

Mall caches aren't my cup of beer, so I probably would never place one. But if I were inclined, I'd probably do it without asking permission under the "no harm, no foul rule". There is a similar debate going on in the NE forum about the propriety of placing caches in telephone booths.

The cache approvers can tell that it is in a private lot. If they are letting them go through, I would not worry about it.

I'm not so sure about that. They have the same tools we have. Topozone, Mapquest, etc... It's not always clear what the status of the cache site is using these tools.

A hide like that around here would catch a lot of flak. Not from property owners, but from the local caching community.

True. Is this really an issue in some areas? With all the caches in NJ, I've yet to find one, or hear about one in a mall lot. Not that they don't exist, but if they do, there aren't many of them.

Edited February 6, 2004 by briansnat

February 6, 2004

I think that it's pretty safe to assume that anybody who would be lame enough to hide a "cache" in a Wal-Mart parking lot is not going to take the time to ask permission. It would double or triple the effort required to hide the stupid thing. I hear these stories about caches being hidden in parking lots and I begin to wonder if geocaching hasn't "jumped the shark".

By the way, I was desperate enough once to set up a tent on the pavement in a Wal-Mart parking lot to spend the night. Nobody said a thing. I hope that I won't ever be desperate enough to go looking for a cache there. *LAME*

1.1k · February 6, 2004

If store parking lot lamppost base micros turn out to be banned as a result of this and other discussions, then the cache density in Nashville (the generally-acknowledged cache density capital of the world...and this is a big reason why!) will drop by about half!

-Dave R. in Biloxi (but have cached Nashville)

Edited February 6, 2004 by drat19

3.1k · February 6, 2004

Great usuage of the word lame, I think you lame users should incorporate lame in your gpsing handles even.

4k · February 6, 2004

This is a good topic/debate. Over 30 posts and nobody's fighting.

Thanks, everyone.

You may proceed.

Aw, shut up and stay out of it, Mrkablooey!!! j/k :rolleyes: :lol:

21.9k · February 6, 2004

The cache approvers can tell that it is in a private lot. If they are letting them go through, I would not worry about it.

A good point. This brings another question, if the approvers are approving, does this mean these are ok--that in the eyes of gc.com this does not constitute private property?

When considering a cache submission, the volunteer cache reviewers look at geocaches against the published listing requirements and known, published landowner permission policies. One of the requirements for listing is that the owner has obtained whatever permission is appropriate. In a vast majority of cases, the reviewer has no way of verifying what is "appropriate." There are exceptions: if the cache is in a National Park, it will be archived because of NPS' published policy. If the cache is in a State Park with a published policy requiring a permit, the cache owner will be asked specifically about their permit. In contrast, for the typical town park, we have no way of knowing what their permission policy is, so we typically don't ask about it.

To my knowledge, Wal-Mart does not have a policy regarding geocaching. Neither does Target, Starbucks, K-Mart or lots of other businesses that are popular hosts for micros. For the reasons explained above, when I approve a cache in a Wal-Mart parking lot, I am NOT saying that it is "permitted." That is the owner's responsibility. Geocaching.com is just a listing service.

Likewise, when I approve such a cache, I am required to put aside any personal opinions about the quality of the cache or whether it is the type of cache I would enjoy hunting. There is presently nothing in the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines which prevents the placement of a lamp post micro, provided that all of the other guidelines are met (528 foot rule, no railroad tracks, not a vacation cache, and so forth).

February 6, 2004

Just for the record, not all parking lot caches are lame. There are some devilishly clever hides out there. I generally find a well-hidden urban micro to be much more difficult than most "real" geocaches. To take the other side of the coin from what you usually see in the forums, anyone can walk three miles into a wilderness area and stick a box in a hollow tree, under a rock, etc. but it takes some real planning and ingenuity to hide a cache well in a parking lot. I do agree that too many of these are just thrown out there, but remember there is a difference between a cache that is placed and a cache that is hidden. And that goes for the "real" ones too.

About Nashville, I live in easy driving distance of the cache density mecca, and i know many of the local cachers. Yes, there are lots of what you would consider lame caches, but there are also lots of really good caches. One of the beauties of Nashville, is that you can cache on whatever level you want. I can give you a list of caches where you could easily do 100 in a day or i could give you five that you would be lucky to accomplish this week. The important thing to realize is this, Nashville's caching community is quite a bit older than any I have seen in my travels. We have several active cachers who are past retirement age and who are prolific hiders. When an older lady with a cane places a cache it is probably not going to be hanging off the side of a cliff. She hides the kind of caches the she and her friends like to find. There is nothing wrong with that. That said I have noticed that when people blow in from out of town they always hit the easy ones and go for big numbers (although those don't matter to anyone do they) the tough stuff around town rarely gets visited when people come hunt easy Cacheville. That being said, come hunt the tough ones before you talk about how easy an area is.

There is a certain charm to finding an extremely well-hidden urban micro that goes beyond the hide. You have to be discreet, no stopping in the location, taking off your pack, setting up base camp and starting a fire before you start to seriously look for the cache. When you get near the area you have to plan your search, aometimes it is obvious and just a matter of positioning the car to hide your activities or creating a diversion. For the tougher ones we have done all kinds of things, from staging a picnic to feigning car trouble. Just a different part of the game we all love.

I do not discriminate amongst caches, I want them all. Virt, loc, lame micro, lame traditional with a long walk, awesome hides of any size, I do not care, they are all precious in my eyes.

9.4k · February 6, 2004

There is a certain charm to finding an extremely well-hidden urban micro that goes beyond the hide. You have to be discreet, no stopping in the location, taking off your pack, setting up base camp and starting a fire before you start to seriously look for the cache. When you get near the area you have to plan your search, aometimes it is obvious and just a matter of positioning the car to hide your activities or creating a diversion. For the tougher ones we have done all kinds of things, from staging a picnic to feigning car trouble. Just a different part of the game we all love.

We practically had to set up a base camp for one urban micro, but that was the first lamp-post-base one we had seen.

6.5k · February 6, 2004

Well written MB. I can't wait to visit soon. We've been talking about a March roadtrip to Cacheville around here. :rolleyes:

PS this cache is kinda sorta like a parking lot lampost micro, but not exactly. It is far from lame, and has stumped some pretty experienced cachers along the way.

Edited February 6, 2004 by wimseyguy

2.2k · February 6, 2004

n michigan the parking lot of a store is considered private property. if you are in a car accident on the property, the police will not write up a report. not even for insurance purposes

That doesn't make any sense at all. If someone breaks into your car in the lot, will the police write a report? If my wife beats me up (again ), is it OK as long as she does it on our property? Some states have odd laws, but this sounds real weird. I had to fill out a police report, for insurance purposes, when a tree fell on my car in my driveway.

the key word in the statement is accident. a break-in is different. i work at a truckstop. last week someone backed into a semi, then left without saying anything. when the police got there, they would not write up a report even for insurance purposes. dumb? i agree. if you are in michigan, you are S.O.L. if your car is damaged in a parking lot.

4k · February 6, 2004

if you are in michigan, you are S.O.L. if your car is damaged in a parking lot.

In Kansas, you can sue the supermarket for damage to your car caused by shopping carts! :rolleyes:

9.4k · February 6, 2004

if you are in michigan, you are S.O.L. if your car is damaged in a parking lot.

In Kansas, you can sue the supermarket for damage to your car caused by shopping carts!

Even if the buggy isn't at the store?

Honest officer, Sparky here assaulted me with this buggy. I want to sue the store because they let him use it!

February 6, 2004

That begs the question, would the parking lot, or the border of the lot, be considered private property and the hider responsible for getting permission?

Back to the original question at the start of the thread, the hider is always responsible for seeking permission. Public or private land is irrelevant. If the land isn't yours, it is ours (public) or theirs (private).

The entire paragraph from the FAQ - "If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. "

G.

4k · February 6, 2004

if you are in michigan, you are S.O.L. if your car is damaged in a parking lot.

In Kansas, you can sue the supermarket for damage to your car caused by shopping carts!

Even if the buggy isn't at the store?

Honest officer, Sparky here assaulted me with this buggy. I want to sue the store because they let him use it!

Wouldn't be the first time I got arrested for buggy assault! :rolleyes: :lol:

Micros On Private Property

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