Cavess Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 Dear geocachers, Allow me to introduce myself. I am a member of the National Speleological Society (NSS), a 13,000-member organization dedicated to the study, exploration and protection of caves. I am also the chair of the NSS Ad-Hoc Geocaching Committee. This committee was created by the NSS President to address the concerns of our members to the placement of geocaches in caves. My role is not to start a flame-war, keep geocachers out of caves, or point an accusing finger at anyone. My job is to attempt to find a common ground between geocachers and cavers that will benefit caves and their environment. In the past, caves have been considered simply ‘holes in the ground’, which people often found to be convenient locations to dump trash. The result was destruction of the cave environment. Caves often form an integral part of the local hydrology, and this trash would often find its way into the local water table, destroying the environment on a larger scale and sickening the local populace. Some caves are more fragile than others. While some caves may have thousands of visitors a year without significant problems, other caves may contain extremely delicate cave formations, sensitive populations of endangered bats, or medically significant populations of microbes. Caves, without the proper training and equipment, can also be extremely dangerous. The goal of the NSS is to educate the population about the importance of caves and many of our members dedicate their lives to the protection and preservation of caves. Just as many members of the geocaching community are passionate about their sport, we are passionate about ours. So it is not surprising that some of our members have not handled the discovery of geocaches or the posting of sensitive cave locations on the internet well. My goal, with the help of the geocaching community, is to change the miscommunication that has occurred. We are asking our members not to remove any cave geocaches, but to contact the geocacher who placed it directly. This caver should then explain to the geocacher the reason that the cave may be sensitive to the presence of a geocache and subsequent visitation. In turn, it is my hope that the equally conservation minded geocacher will be receptive to the needs of the cave ecosystem. Hopefully we can find a common ground where we may all enjoy our respective sports, not only benefiting ourselves, but also the environment that we care about so much. Many thanks, Hazel A. Barton, Ph.D. Quote Link to comment
+leatherman Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 Hmm no contact information. No mention of future resolution. Must be a closed statement. "Hi I'm so-and-so good bye." If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do. Mokita! Quote Link to comment
Cavess Posted December 29, 2002 Author Share Posted December 29, 2002 I was aware that this was an open discussion forum, and was very much looking forward to that - an open discussion. If you feel it necessary to contact me directly, I believe if you click my user name you can do that. Alternatively, I posted my full name and a google search works very well. If you require more information on the NSS, our website can be found at www.caves.org. Quote Link to comment
+Logscaler and Red Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 Re-read my posting and it came back real bad, Sorry about that. I should not post while in a hurry. So I have changed it. Most of the lava tubes/caves around here are closed and posted for bat habitat part of the year. But a lot of them are closed due to being "chalked" up by climbers. But most of the damage done in all the caves around here is from parties by kids who have no idea what they are really into. Although some of our locals will remember the guy who used dynamite to try and close some caves he thought where dangers. The USFS people spent a lot of money fixing that problem. And as for posting the cords for some of the caves, all it takes is a little digging and all those caves are to be found anyway. Just not on some up to date maps, but there are a lot of old maps out there that will have them marked. If "we" all work together, some give and take both ways, things will work out all around for the better for both camps. Maybe the geocachers can help in plotting out cave routes above ground and as it seems we are always looking in weird places, maybe we will find a cave for you. And as always, trash out hurts no one at any time. Heck, I have made a few bucks cleaning beer cans out of caves and parking spots. I have no troubles working with anyone, as long as they see it my way. TTFN, logscaler. [This message was edited by logscaler on December 29, 2002 at 05:16 PM.] Quote Link to comment
Cavess Posted December 29, 2002 Author Share Posted December 29, 2002 Dear logscaler, There is no implication of 'we were here first', the aim of the letter is to talk about cave conservation and work with interested geocachers toward this goal. As for the coordinates already being posted on the internet, this is not the case. True, in many states it is possible to find the locations of a handful of caves this way, but not the hundreds of sensitive caves we are attempting to protect. Quote Link to comment
+georgeandmary Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Cavess:We are asking our members not to remove any cave geocaches, but to contact the geocacher who placed it directly. This caver should then explain to the geocacher the reason that the cave may be sensitive to the presence of a geocache and subsequent visitation. In turn, it is my hope that the equally conservation minded geocacher will be receptive to the needs of the cave ecosystem. Hopefully we can find a common ground where we may all enjoy our respective sports, not only benefiting ourselves, but also the environment that we care about so much. Many thanks, Hazel A. Barton, Ph.D. I see no problem with that. I think most geocachers I know would be ok with that. Where the battles start is when people start taking matters into their own hands without contacting the site and the cacher hider. george Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more. Quote Link to comment
+jonboy Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 I for one welcome your alerting us to these issues, and I think most cachers would respond positively if approached about potential problems. This is not to say that we would give another group of enthusiasts control over our sport, but rather that we would be willing to consider perspectives other than our own when placing caches. Naturally your post will arouse the flame warriors in our midst,but when all the dust settles, you will find you get the best response by appealing to our collective conscience. Quote Link to comment
husqui Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Cavess: My goal, with the help of the geocaching community, is to change the miscommunication that has occurred. Thank you for you and your organization's open-minded approach to whatever issues may have happened or may happen. I personally have never hunted for a cache in a cave but would like a chance to do so someday. Hopefully, continued communication between our groups will allow me that experience at some point in the future. Welcome to the forums! Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 Well now you pose a position and more than a few questions. For example. If your organization says "the cache has to go" and our local one says "no problem" what's that mean? Another thing is general caver clubs don't advertise caves. Out of sight out of mind. So if I find a cave and put a cache in it that was on your secret list how am I supposed to know that I was doing a bad thing, or not? When it comes to permission what caves do you actually have any authority over so that we could ask? If not specific caves, what area? Do you have a home page with a map and a copy of something that does give your group authority posted? As for my cave cache, I don't think I'm in danger of doing anything but improving the cave with our cache in trash out theme. Were you to visit this cave you would most likely agree. Do the cracks that make up the great rift count as caves? I've got a cache in the works for the great rift national monument but I'm only working with the BLM on it. Quote Link to comment
Cavess Posted December 29, 2002 Author Share Posted December 29, 2002 Thank you for your questions, hopefully I can answer them. And yes, I was hoping to encourage comments from the geocaching community on how we can best approach and solve this issue. The NSS is directly responsible for the cave systems we own. We presently own 11 cave preserves, containing dozens of caves and are in the process of purchasing a 12th. At these locations, we leave the decisions on management up to the local group responsible for the preserve. These are posted on our website, www.caves.org. We also have numerous memorandums of understanding with the Federal land agencies (including the BLM) to manage other cave systems. However, the final decision on management of caves on Federal lands lies with each agency. As for other caves, the NSS' governing body leaves local decisions up to the local grottos (or chapters) of the organization. So, if the local grotto deemed the cave suitable for a cache, we would respect that decision. As well as if they considered it too sensitive. As for your cave, the argument as to 'what constitutes a cave' is a very long one, discussed ad nauseum on our own discussion page. However, the general consideration is that if it 'goes beyond daylight' (i.e., is completely dark), then it is a cave. A lot would depend on the rock the cave is located in. It sounds as though your 'cracks' would be in granite, making these legitimate 'fault', or 'talus' caves. [This message was edited by Cavess on December 29, 2002 at 09:38 PM.] Quote Link to comment
+Jamie Z Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 Cavess, While there aren't any cave caches in my area (that I know of), I appreciate your organization coming to us with the discussion and with an open mind. I don't have any questions for you, but I wanted to point out that it is refreshing to see another environmentally conscious group willing to find a compromise. Thank you. Jamie Quote Link to comment
+georgeandmary Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 I have the hardest time getting a good satalite lock inside a cave....... don't know why that is. george Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more. Quote Link to comment
+MaxEntropy Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 Cavess, Thanks for coming to our little sandbox with your concerns. As you read through these forums you'll notice that underneath the silliness and goofing-off, you'll see that most of the geocachers here are outdoors types. They share with you a consience of preservation of the lands. read carefully and you'll see a concern regarding creating social trails, disturbing wildlife, polluting and our favorite way of paying back the community, trashing-out. I don't think that you have muich to be concerned about if a cacher places a cache in a cave. Look at the existing caches. Has the cave been damaged? Instead, I'll wager that you'll find that someone may be a bit more interested in the cave itself and perhaps interested in forwarding your goal of preserving the caves. Infortunately, previous contact with cavers here has been under an umbrella of a "we were here first, get lost" attitude. I'd suggest that if a cache is in a cave and it's doing no harm, leave it. You might even be able to use the cache to recruit into your organization. If it's likely to hurt the cave, we'll remove it if you ask. Mickey Max Entropy More than just a name, a lifestyle. Quote Link to comment
+CCrew Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 I do find it rather ironic that caves.com redirects to cavediggers.com. Isn't digging contrary to proper management of a cave too? :-) Sometimes a majority only means that all the fools are on the same side Quote Link to comment
+nincehelser Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 Excellent timing. I'm trying to get a virtual approved at a gated cave entrance but I'm meeting resistance that seems to say it has to be a real cache. Being a caver myself, I know a physical cache nearby isn't appropriate in this location. It is in a developing residential neighborhood, and the local cavers thought it best to make the area a small nature preserve with trails, with attempts to educate the general public on the importance of cave conservation. There are quite a few caves in my subdivision (keeping them hidden now is pointless) and I was hoping to make virtuals of them somehow explaining their importance, but if the admins require that they be physical, I may just have to pass on the whole idea. I was summarily archived an hour or so after submitting Saturday morning. I sent back a note asking for reconsideration and saying a physical cache isn't appropriate, but I'm still waiting for a response. Thoughts? George Quote Link to comment
+sbukosky Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 I've been interested in caves since I was a kid and have visited a fair amount of them in my travels. I never considered that a cave would be a location to consider for a geocache. Just not getting a lock would be reason enough. Also, I thought most caves of any interest have already been located and secured. But, I can appreciate not wanting anyone not in good standing with a caving organization to enter a new cave unescorted. I've seen what damage can be done to thousands of years of nature's work by someone taking a souvenier or grabbing onto a structure and having skin oil disrupt the water pattern. Steve Bukosky N9BGH Waukesha Wisconsin Quote Link to comment
Cavess Posted December 29, 2002 Author Share Posted December 29, 2002 Thank you to everyone who has posted their comments, I am very grateful to everone who shares my passion for caves and conservation. I would however like to make a response to CCrew's post. I'm sorry, you have the wrong URL (my original mistake). The address for the National Speleological Society is www.caves.org not .com as you posted. I believe the .com site is affiliated with a commercial enterprise, but thanks for taking the time to look us up. Quote Link to comment
+nincehelser Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 I think there are still quite a few undiscovered caves out there. From time to time the local cavers around here go on cave hunts, looking for new caves in areas that have promising signs. Geocachers could probably be a big help in this area. If they were trained to report possible caves they come across in their travels, that information could be forwarded to local caving groups for further exploration. George Quote Link to comment
+cachew nut Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 Despite my avatar, I really don't know much about caves, except that if there is a geocache near one, this might be my opportunity to see one up close. Geocaching has brought me to places I have never been before, it may bring me to a cave someday. It's refreshing that Dr. Barton is interested in discussing the coexistence of the two sports. It's my understanding (from their website discussion forums) that they are also fighting for access to caves, for cavers in particular, not necessarily for geocachers. In doing a couple searches and reading through the search results of the forums, I get a good feeling that Dr. Barton is well respected there, quite famous among cavers, actually. I think she would represent her group well in any dialog. However, a search on their site on geocaching revealed two threads that I would urge those wishing to participate in a dialog to go read. There you will find out what some cavers think about geocachers. Not all, but some. There are those who think geocachers should not be kept out of these areas, but it seems that others have taken it upon themselves to keep all geocachers away. They have gone so far as to make statements that geocaching will cause theft in caves, cause people to urinate at the entrances and to spray paint their girlfriend's names on the walls. While a dialog is nice, I woud urge any of those wishing to participate in a discussion to go to their site and read through the forums to get a feel for the sort of people Dr. Barton is representing. Quote Link to comment
+Freelens&Mosie Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 I understand your wish to keep things as pristine as possibile for your sport. I just think maintaining a cave must be a lot like maintaining a ruin. When do you know when you have done enough? Do you sacrifice some caves to tourism to get cash to purchase more holes in the ground? Just asking. It seems like a nice sport but doesn't make as much sense as hiding stuff in the woods for people to find.. Uh wait a minute, maybe I need to think on this some more. Don't get me started on preservation of battle fields. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. Quote Link to comment
Team Dragon Racing Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 cavess i anser that one the nss uses memer donations and the dues and funraiseing to buy the land the caves are on slith formor member of the orlando groto Quote Link to comment
+CYBret Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 is get involved in a serious discussion something I know nothing at all about. I've never been in a cave (outside of the Injun Joe's Cave at Six Flags, that is). There just aren't that many around here in Central Illinois. I have had a few friends who were very into caves and have asked me to come with them to Southern Illinois/Indiana sometime. From the stories they tell, though I don't know if they're encouraging me to go with them or to stay above ground! Having said that, I feel totally inadequate to make any comment on caves, caving, or cave maintenance. And, having said that, I notice that it appears you've never been on a geocache hunt, Cavess. This is not meant as a crack or a flame or anything else inflammatory, but my recommendation is get a few caches under your belt before you do anything else as chair of the NSS Ad-Hoc Geocaching Committee. If you're looking for common ground the best place to start might be in yourself. And thanks for taking interest in this sport. This has to be one of the better discussions of caves and caches I've seen. Bret "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again." Mt. 13:44 Quote Link to comment
+MacBWizard Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Rather interesting discussion here in their forums: Geocaching in Caves I suggest that you read it [This message was edited by MacBWizard201 on December 30, 2002 at 06:42 AM.] Quote Link to comment
Kiddguy Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Geocachers don't want trash in their caves. Cavers don't want geocachers in their caves. Archaeologists don't want cavers in their caves. Animals don't want archaeologists in their caves. Where will it end? Quote Link to comment
magellan315 Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Dr. Barton is being reasonable and trying to work with the Geocaching community, which is more than I can say for some past posts by other individuals. Who have told us how our sport is damaging the environment and how theywill make every effiort to stop us.. As Geocachers we try to be very aware of the environment, given the individuals specific knowledge and input from the community. I would strongly agree that the Dr. Barton and the rest of the Geocaching community be encouraged to go Geocaching to better understand the sport. Perhaps if Dr. Barton could let us know how we could contact all of the committee members to find out where they live. This way local Geocachers could take them Geocaching, I'd be more than willing to volunteer. Quote Link to comment
+Team Golden Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 It's nice to see some are trying to work back and forth. I read their website and wow you would think they own the caves and all geocachers are terrible people who dig holes and destroy things. Quote Link to comment
Cavess Posted December 30, 2002 Author Share Posted December 30, 2002 Thank you all for what is turning into an interesting and informative discussion. At this point, I'd like to answer some of the questions raised. As far as myself never specifically having gone geocaching, this is true. However, I was introduced to the sport in October 2001 when a couple of friends along on a hike were geocachers, and our hike became a geocaching 'hunt'. I am also a member of our local Search and Rescue unit, so I have used GPS units many times to hunt for something or someone in the woods and mountains - albeit to save someone's life. Now as to previous discussions, on both the geocaching and NSS discussion forums. The very reason I am approaching the geocaching community is to try and correct the misunderstandings that have taken place in the past. Geocachers, who are intimately involved with their sport know little about caves and caving, and cavers, intimately involved in ours, know little about geocaching. Everyone got off on the wrong foot, and nothing was accomplished other than some animosity. Only an open and honest discussion between the two groups can change this. My job is not to make any false promises to the geocaching community. My goal is to determine how we can work together, towards our common goal – conservation of our environment. If you are interested in caving, the best way to contact local cavers in your area is through the local grotto (chapter) of the NSS. Information on these grottos can be found at http://www.caves.org/info/grotto/. You may also contact me directly (click on my geocaching user name), and I will help in any way I can. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Since you gave a reasoned responce to my semi resoned initial post I'll give you some advice. Nothing you haven't thought of. First of all, be active with your local geocaching group. If a member of your orginzation is an active geocacher all the better. You then have a built in interface. Second. Watch the caches in your area. Sooner or later you will spot caches of concern, but if you are not pro-active you will miss them. We don't always know who to go to for permission. Third. Consider the effective use of virtual caches. By creating a virtual cache you almost gurantee a 0.1 mile radius as a cache free zone. While this will increase traffic to a location, it will decrease the possiblity of a real cache and the associated turning over of rocks, logs etc. that goes with looking for a cache. Also remote caches don't get visited that often. Most geocachers are armchair types that like park and bag geocaches close to the comfort of their own homes and near their favorite resteraunt. Lasty this is not a complete list, but you will see far more damage from non cachers (do you really think it's geocachers who toss Keystone can's out their windows and into holes in the ground?). Don't automaticly blame geocachers for damange and destruction. Case in point is my cave cache. It's a well known local cave. It's also a local party spot for teenagers. They toss down firewood and have frequent bonfires. The smell of smoke permiates the cave (a lava tube). Beer can's litter the area as well as spray paint cans. The walls are grafitied. We have had an annual clean up where the cave was cleaned up. This didn't last long but it helped. When I visit to maintain the cache I haul out something just because. The name of the Cache if you are interested in reading about it is. Kuna Kave Krawl. Wherever you go there you are. Quote Link to comment
luxem Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 I think there is a misunderstanding about who Geocachers really are. I would think that most of us are people who enjoy the outdoors and are insterested in preserving our environment. You should look at Geocaching as a way to create interest in your organization and cave conservation. We are nota bunch of kids who post coordinates of places to party in the woods. I head out with a GPS in one hand and a compass in the other....not a can of spray paint and a case of Busch. If a cache is in an ecologically sensitive area, then contact the owner or a Geocache admin to have it removed. My guess is that none, or very few, caches are in these areas. Our interest is in enjoying the environment, not destroying it. Quote Link to comment
TriCityGuy Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 I too have caved some and know enough about the principles of caving that I'd never post cave coordinates anywhere. When I first started caving I was invited to a Speliocamp where cavers camped together and in essence supervised and guided the newbies into the sport. It was great because they started us out in damaged caves to see what happens when coordinates get out and then to a pristine cave that as far as I knew only a few dozen knew about. Perhaps if cavers have a similar event in the future you'd want to invite geocachers to participate. Give them the GPS coordinates to camp and the list of suggested supplies. It's called an "event cache". The ethos of the two sports is also fairly similar. Cache In, Trash Out and Take Only Photos, Leave Only Footprints, Pack In, Pack Out spawn from the same philosophy of preserving the environment. Quote Link to comment
Cavess Posted December 30, 2002 Author Share Posted December 30, 2002 Renegade Knight, thank you for your post. These are some very good points. How do we contact the geocaching groups? I think the idea of virtual caches is an excellent one, and certainly a postive step. I would also like to respond to Luxem's statement. I certainly do not consider geocachers a problem, it is the posting of coordinates that we are particularly concerned about. From my experience, geocachers tend to be either families or conservationists. However, with cave coordinates posted on the internet, they are available to anyone, and it is these 'anyone's' we are concerned about. Let me give you an example. In New Mexico, there was a cave with a significant population of endangered bats. This cave was protected from vandals through it's location being a secret. Unfortunately, someone was not careful and gave out information that allowed the cave to be discovered by local teenagers. These teenagers proceeded to take a can of hairspray and a lighter into the cave. They then made a flame-thrower and burnt most of the bat colony off of the walls (hundreds of bats from a species threatened with extinction). Then to finish the job they sprayed graffiti all over the cave. A terrible waste for anyone, but a devastating and heartbreaking loss for the caving community. It is this that we are working to prevent. We don't want to keep geocachers out of caves, we want to keep the cave locations out of the hands of the wrong people. Quote Link to comment
Wordslinger Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 I love caves -- and would have never thought to do a cache in one. It's kind of dangerous in the non-commercial caves and you can so easily damage formations by careless climbing. Perhaps a nice medium... like a cache only at the entrance of a cave that's basically a logbook of the visits? And available only on a fairly exclusive basis with the cave owner's permission? I can see that approaching a cave owner (perhaps through the association), explaining the cache process, and working together might be of mutual benefit. A brochure could be left at the visitors' desk explaining that there is a cache around and explaing a bit about geocaching (perhaps have a "beginner's" cache and a more advanced cache that would require permission)... and, of course, the cave owners get their sites listed on a geocaching database. I think it could work. (g) I volunteer to do Cave Without A Name here in Texas (we just LOVED that cave!!!) Quote Link to comment
luxem Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Cavess:It is this that we are working to prevent. We don't want to keep geocachers out of caves, we want to keep the cave locations out of the hands of the wrong people. I personally wouldn't want to see a cache in a sensitive or protected (secret) cave. Maybe this is something that should be specified in our placement guidelines? Quote Link to comment
+Logscaler and Red Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 After going to the page MacBWizard201 posted, It looks to me like the cavers are having a big fight within their ranks as what is best for caves also. A lot of " we where here first and we know what is best" to "the caves are not ours" to " I own a couple caves". It still seems to me as there has to be middle ground somewhere and it hurts both side to argue that "my" side is right. It would be my bet that the vast majority of the damage done to caves is from people going specifically to damage the cave in some form or the next and those people will know where the caves area any way or know how to find them. Also, just go to Google and type in caves. You will get something like 1,220,000 hits. Somewhere in there will be enough information for anyone to find just about any cave known to man. As for those people in Colorado who have basically tied up the caves for their use, why? Are you going to go after certain vistas next? “ I do not want people standing on MY rock watching the sunset. They might break off a bit of moss, a twig from my favorite sagebrush,,,,," and I am getting carried away. TTFN, logscaler. Quote Link to comment
Wordslinger Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 By the way, folks, this also comes up with another sensitive issue... petroglyphs and other rock art. While it would be valuable to enthusiasts (such as myself) and archaeologists to have good locations for them, it would encourage vandalism. So this could be quite an important issue, here. I'm going to volunteer my services with a rock art group to help get good coordinates for some of this art (important for preservation.) But I can see that publishing the data on Internet is dangerous. Quote Link to comment
+cachew nut Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 All this talk about caves is really starting to make me get interested in something I never cared about before. Now knowing there are secret caves in publicly accessable areas just fuels my desire to go find them. I think I would like to see a database of secret cave coordinates. After all, our geocache coordinates are available to all non-caching cavers. Quote Link to comment
Rubbertoe Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Granted, most geocachers are good folks. That doesn't mean I'd want a cache hidden in a cave for which I was responsible. As with any group, there are going to be a few dinks that insist on being stupid. I imagine we've all seen it at least once... a cache in the middle of nowhere, with slim jim wrappers and an empty pop can nearby. Definitely from geocachers? No. Quite likely from geocachers? Yup. I'm just saying I can see why the "cave people" would be concerned with a group of people from another hobby, with apparently little interest in the actual cave, suddenly coming to their cave in large numbers - looking for stuff. "Hey Dad! While you look for that cache I'm gonna go in the cave and pick me some of them there cave icicles to take home with us!" If you don't like what I say, please try to explain why I am wrong - rather than just flaming, kthnx. The Toe Pages "Now with 50% less yuck, and 100% more color!!" Quote Link to comment
Rubbertoe Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by luxem:I personally wouldn't want to see a cache in a sensitive or protected (secret) cave. Maybe this is something that should be specified in our placement guidelines? The main guideline of obtaining permission before placing a cache covers this issue. Obviously if a cache is hidden in a protected cave, it was placed without permission - and it should be removed. Preferrably by the owner, but if they can't/won't - then I have no problem with the people in charge of that cave removing it. If comeone places a cache without permission, they've got no right to complain if someone in charge of that area removes it. I don't think anyone can disagree with that. Quote Link to comment
Chameleon Circuit Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Rubbertoe:I'm just saying I can see why the "cave people" would be concerned with a group of people from another hobby, with apparently little interest in the actual cave, suddenly coming to their cave in large numbers - looking for stuff. All they would have to do is rate the cache 3.5 or higher and that would automatically limit the total number of visitors to fewer than 6, because everyone knows that 99.9% of geocachers are lazy couch potato wimps. Quote Link to comment
Rubbertoe Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by GeoPrincess:All they would have to do is rate the cache 3.5 or higher and that would automatically limit the total number of visitors to fewer than 6, because everyone knows that 99.9% of geocachers are lazy couch potato wimps. Crap... I'll have to change my bumper sticker, then. I have the current motto as: "Geocachers: Littering, Vandalizing, Tromping, Stomping, and Up to No Good!" On a side note - I've gone to the NSS forums (as mentioned in an above post) and made a wordy reply on their Geocaching thread. I encourage others to do so as well. Feel free to correct anything I've said there, too. The Toe Pages "Now with 50% less yuck, and 100% more color!!" Quote Link to comment
+MacBWizard Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by cachew nut:All this talk about caves is really starting to make me get interested in something I never cared about before. Now knowing there are secret caves in publicly accessable areas just fuels my desire to go find them. I think I would like to see a database of secret cave coordinates. After all, our geocache coordinates are available to all non-caching cavers. Good point. Am I right in assuming that there are "secret" caves on public property? If so, these should not be secret. Like cachew nut said, nothing about geocaching is secret(anyone in the world with internet access can see every cache), and it shouldn't be because many caches are on public property. I think that caves should not be kept secret from the public if they are located on the land that we own. I think you should meet more cachers. As a whole you will find that we are not the types that go around looking on the internet for coordinates to some cave so that we can go and ruin it. A previous poster mentioned finding locations for a cave on google. This is true, I'm sure somewhere online you could find almost every cave. My question is have you actually seen cave vandalism as a direct result of a nearby cache? Quote Link to comment
+Minex Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Caches in caves? ...and I thought I had poor reception with caches under trees. Quote Link to comment
+fizzymagic Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Cavess, I really appreciate your coming here to discuss the matter with us. We had one interaction with an NSS person in the past that was not very, well, productive. Here's an idea for a way to make cave caches doable for geocachers without posting the coordinates: simply request that geocaches at caves considered moderately sensitive be done as multicaches. If you're not familiar with multicaches, here's how it works: the coordinates posted to the website are not for the geocache, but for a microcache that itself contains the coordinates of the actual geocache. Usually the initial coordinates are within a reasonable walking distance of the main geocache; probably within a mile. This idea completely solves the problem of having the coordinates of caves posted online, but does not in any way restrict the ability of serious (and therefore probably environmentally sensitive) geocachers to enjoy the cave. Do you think this might allay the fears of the caving community? Quote Link to comment
+fizzymagic Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Yet another way to keep cave locations from being posted yet still making them accessible to geocachers is by using some variant of the "puzzle cache" approach. Perhaps the coordinates could be derived by solving problems that would require you to do some research about the particular cave in question, or about cave preservation in general. Once again, this keeps out the casual vandals while allowing serious geocachers access. This idea has the additional potential for including some education about caves and cave preservation. Quote Link to comment
+geospotter Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 I like fizzy's idea. Use a cache as an opportunity to educate. If you go with a multi, you might include two caves. One that has been vandalized, and one that hasn't. Keep in mind that only a small percentage of cachers in any area read these forums. But if you make a cache you will reach almost all of the cachers. geospotter Quote Link to comment
+MaxEntropy Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by GeoPrincess:All they would have to do is rate the cache 3.5 or higher and that would automatically limit the total number of visitors to fewer than 6, because everyone knows that 99.9% of geocachers are lazy couch potato wimps. Hey! I represent that remark! Mickey Max Entropy More than just a name, a lifestyle. Quote Link to comment
Cavess Posted December 30, 2002 Author Share Posted December 30, 2002 I think Fizzymatic's idea is an excellent one, on many levels. It seems like an opportunity to enjoy caves, help preserve them, and educate people about cave conservation and safe caving techniques. I would be delighted to go to our membership with such a proposal, and in turn encourage our members to approach the geocachers on the local level, in the hopes of establishing a positive relationship. Quote Link to comment
+Duc996 Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Thank you Cavess for starting this thread. I never realized we had such a problem. I too went to your web site forum and got an "eye opening" experience. I'm quite livid over some of the comments at the NSS site. Hopefully you will be successful in educating your members on our activities. I volunteer to do what I can to help you in any capacity. No one wants this to get any uglier than it already is. This sport is still in its infancy and while not giving in to irrational demands from others we should all realize any unintentional results from our activities. Quote Link to comment
+cachew nut Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Nice going Fizzymatic Quote Link to comment
dboggny Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 cavess, i would be willing to meet cave folks in the NYC - metropolitan area to exchange ideas and such. SR and dboggny. Quote Link to comment
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