Caches in Caves

January 7, 2003

I, geospotter, do hereby solemnly swear that I will neither place nor hunt a geocache in a cave.

Please do not take my opinions or words to be that of other geocachers. Do not judge geocachers or geocaching based on my posts. My words and opinions are mine alone. I, in no way, speak for other geocachers, so please do not deem my attitude to be that of others here.

My problem is with the secret caver club attitude that seems to feel that non-cavers are somehow not worthy. That only true cavers have the knowledge and the experience to truly enjoy caves.

[sarcasm on]

Some people that I work with feel the same way about casual computer users. Unless you have a computer science degree or at the very least are A+ certified, perhaps you are not qualified to use a computer and you certainly cannot comprehend the dangers that lurk here on the internet. Viruses, trojan horses, java, backdoors, spyware, hackers, you just don't get it. There are some users that only use computers to do harm, so to protect the internet, and until such time that you can prove proficiency in the science of computing, we will be locking the internet and banning all non-professionals until further notice. Disclosure of passwords will now be a Federal offense.

[sarcasm off]

I understand that secrecy is only one tool you use to help protect caves. But to rely so heavily on it, in the information age, seems, well, fruitless.

geospotter

January 7, 2003

Environmental Impact Statement?

I guess the answer is that there is no reason to bring in an archeologist unless there is reason to believe there are remains or artifacts in the area. If the cave were a known habitation, I could imagine that permission would be required beforehand, but many caves have never been seen by man, or in some cases, animal.

Usually cave diggers are trying to further exploration by removing debris in passages, and in some cases widening them. If evidence is found, professionals are called in. Pretty simple, really.

Just like the developers who dig up artifacts while bulldozing...it just gets reported and the professionals take it from there.

January 7, 2003

It's lame. It's unreliable. But it is pretty functional most of the time.

Not only is it used by cavers, but software developers.

1.1k · January 7, 2003

4georges:

Thanks for the offer but can you spell claustrophobic? I used to cave in Central Oregon quite a lot way back when and then one day as I was laying under a house I was helping to build, boom it hit me and now I pretty much have to stay away from tight spots.

Do not get me wrong, I still get into lava tubes and such but I have to have plenty of room and lights. I can sit here and get the shakes from thinking about what I used to do as a kid sliding in and out of tubes with back and belly scraping for hundreds of yards between rooms.

Brrr, shivers even typing this.

An EIS is a Enviromental Empact Statement. The feds require them for just about anything done on federal land and I would think digging in caves would require a MAJOR EIS to be done and might even be required by state entities.

Out here, The local college came out and did a dig in front of a cave, not in the cave. Over two dozen people worked for three months on ONE trench 11 feet deep by twenty feet long and 9 feet wide, or there abouts.

And that's another thing, somewhere back up in the threads, someone said that a cave is not a cave unless you need light in the back of it? Right? Then what do you call a cave that has daylight clear to the end? A hole? It seems to me that if a group of old time native americans lived in it for generations, it could be called a cave. Also, i know of several lava tubes hundred and thousands of feet long that are skylighted. Are those caves or holes?

And that's where I come back to the EIS for digs. How do the cavers know that people at one time or another did not live in those caves and they are digging through thousands of years of history?

And for those who wonder why I am even involved in this thread if I do not go into caves? Even outside of geocaching I do not like to think that One group has control over public ground and wants to keep the others who might use them out. Be it caves, Wilderness areas, lakes, rivers or ocean beaches. But the beaches is a whole new thread.

Again, thanks for the offer but unless things change, I will stay mostly above ground.

TTFRN, logscaler.

January 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
It's lame. It's unreliable. But it is pretty functional most of the time.

Not only is it used by cavers, but software developers.

That's right! I use "security through obscurity" to make sure that I can have complete control over what other people do with my software.

You DO get it!

geospotter

1.1k · January 7, 2003

nincehelser :

Fast question. How many cavers are trained in knowing what they are even looking at when digging?

A lot can be learned even from flakes of obsidion, chunks of bone with tool marks or even sticks with tool marks.

I have knowlwdge of a person who was going through a Wood rat nest in the High desert of Oregon. It was hundreds of yeras old, if not thousands, and found some old tools used by native americans.

How do you know that something your throwing in a heap pile is not of that same style?

Oregon Caves was found by a hunter chasing a bear into a hole. How do you know a native was not in one of those caves and died in there and all that remain are scraps of bone and you just set back research thousands of years?

All this may be far fetched but, can you say without a doubt that it has not happened? Never?

TTFRN, logscaler.

January 7, 2003

I'm sure if you were digging or working in a cave owned by the federal government, all kinds of paperwork might be involved. But many caves are owned by states and even private individuals.

How do you know if a cave has been inhabited before? Lots of things may tip you off. Cave drawings, bones, artifacts, fire pit remains...in some sections of caves things don't change very much, so you may not have to dig. Some caves have remains embedded in the walls as formations grew around them...that's a pretty good tip.

January 7, 2003

You're talking about a very small minority of cavers. Are they trained? Doubtful. Are construction workers trained to recognized artifacts? No. Only when something obviously of interest is found do archeological digs begin.

Small artifacts are bound to be lost in all sorts of projects. Even professionals miss them unless they are specifically looking for them.

Otherwise, everyone would be digging holes by hand using spades and toothbrushes for every construction project. That doesn't happen unless there's evidence. It's the same with caves.

Frankly, a lot of caves it's pretty clear there has been no human habitation. For example, a cave near me routinely floods. It's not a very good place for humans to live or seek shelter.

1.1k · January 7, 2003

nincehelser :

If any/all the reasons you listed above for things found in a cave or cave wall leads you to think the cave was at one time lived in or used, Why would you even consider going into the cave until all the proper people have been through it??

It might take years before the paperwork gets done.

It might be years after that before funding get approved.

It might be years after that before the right people can get there, but in the interest of the cave, you would be willing to forgo going into the cave, right?

You would be willing to stop others from going ito it, Right?

Even on private lands, in the interest of the cave, right?

Now, Prove that this has happened.

Now, prove that the reverse has not happened.

TTFRN, logscaler.

January 7, 2003

Say what? If you're using STO, it also means *anyone* could take control of your software once they figure out the secret.

STO in no way implies any sort of control...it just hopefully delays the inevitable.

In the case of caves, it's the only thing that can be done at the moment.

January 7, 2003

I assume you're talking about caves with signs of habitation.

Why do you seem to have a problem believing that cavers would hold off after a discovery? Cavers often hold off going into certain caves that are declared very sensitive because of a particular insect or animal (though sometimes it's a judgement call and arguments ensue).

If a cave has been declared off limits due to something interesting being found, most cavers will respect that, if not volunteer their services to help with the find. Not all archeologists (can't spell tonight) are expert cavers, you know.

1.1k · January 7, 2003

And there you have it.

Cavers have a hard time staying out even for a good reason.

Not all cavers cross the line, but some do.

Now, replace "cavers" with "geocachers" in the above statements and in your own response.

Things happen. Period.

No matter the best intentions of any one person or any one group, things happen that we have no control over.

But when "WE" try to control anything, "WE" should look at all the reasons why we are

trying to control. There are real reasons, and there are perceived reasons.

Which do cavers run under?

Real?

Perceived?

TTFN, logscaler.

January 7, 2003

Just how do you get "Cavers have a hard time staying out even for a good reason."? If there is a good reason they do stay out. Can you not read?

Maybe they argue about the importance of a particular bug, but when it comes to human remains, there is no argument.

The rest of your posting makes no sense.

"Things do happen. Period." Boy, what an insight!

It's apparent you're just trolling now, and refuse to engage in logical conversation or debate.

Like I said before, with attitudes like yours, secrecy seems to be well advised. You've certainly conviced me of that.

January 7, 2003

Dear All,

Sorry I haven't had an opportunity to respond lately, but work commitments (and a grant deadline) have kept me busy.

I just wanted to briefly respond to Logscaler's comments:

Yes, we obide by all regulations with regard to what we can and cannot do in caves - whether they be on Federal lands, or the cave that 'Regular Joe' lets us explore in his backyard.

If an EIS is required, then we will get one. However, digs are rare, and in most cases the caves we are digging in to have had sediment fill since the last glaciation (i.e. before 'known' human habitation of the continent).

Usually what occurs is that we identify sites to archeologists and paleontologists - who would have had absolutely no idea a cave existed at that site, or an area within a cave that was previously not known.

Two examples come to mind. Cavers were exploring a limestone ridge for caves in Colorado. They discovered a small cave, and upon entering found what appeared to be a human skeleton. Realizing that this was significant, they left the sight immediately and called in archeologists. The archeologists determined that the find constituted the second most ancient human remains in the Americas (>8,000 years old I believe). It turned out to be a VERY significant find. The cave remains a secret to all but a handful of cavers and the archeologists to protect the site (it appears the aboriginal Indian fell and died trying to explore the cave).

A second example was a cave I helped map for the Carnegie Institute. Cavers, once again, rediscovered this cave, which was originally opened by prospectors. Inside the cave they found a pack-rat nest full of bones. As experienced cavers, they realized that the nest of bones was unusual and called in paleotologists. The paleotologists called in were from the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, and subsequently the Carnegie institute. It took 10 years to completely excavate the pack-rat nest. The lowest levels were over 9 million years old, and the information unearthed resulted in a complete re-write of the known paleontological record for Colorado.

These are just two examples I am directly aware of. Almost every caver I know has a similar story. It comes with experience - the more familiar you are with an environment, the more you are aware when things are unusual and could be significant.

BTW - the cave with the pack-rat nest. The room it was discovered in was protected from vandals by concealing the passageway leading to it. Spray-paint and trash lead up to that point.

January 7, 2003

Dear All,

Sorry I haven't had an opportunity to respond lately, but work commitments (and a grant deadline) have kept me busy.

I just wanted to briefly respond to Logscaler's comments:

Yes, we obide by all regulations with regard to what we can and cannot do in caves - whether they be on Federal lands, or the cave that 'Regular Joe' lets us explore in his backyard.

If an EIS is required, then we will get one. However, digs are rare, and in most cases the caves we are digging in to have had sediment fill since the last glaciation (i.e. before 'known' human habitation of the continent).

Usually what occurs is that we identify sites to archeologists and paleontologists - who would have had absolutely no idea a cave existed at that site, or an area within a cave that was previously not known.

Two examples come to mind. Cavers were exploring a limestone ridge for caves in Colorado. They discovered a small cave, and upon entering found what appeared to be a human skeleton. Realizing that this was significant, they left the sight immediately and called in archeologists. The archeologists determined that the find constituted the second most ancient human remains in the Americas (>8,000 years old I believe). It turned out to be a VERY significant find. The cave remains a secret to all but a handful of cavers and the archeologists to protect the site (it appears the aboriginal Indian fell and died trying to explore the cave).

A second example was a cave I helped map for the Carnegie Institute. Cavers, once again, rediscovered this cave, which was originally opened by prospectors. Inside the cave they found a pack-rat nest full of bones. As experienced cavers, they realized that the nest of bones was unusual and called in paleotologists. The paleotologists called in were from the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, and subsequently the Carnegie institute. It took 10 years to completely excavate the pack-rat nest. The lowest levels were over 9 million years old, and the information unearthed resulted in a complete re-write of the known paleontological record for Colorado.

These are just two examples I am directly aware of. Almost every caver I know has a similar story. It comes with experience - the more familiar you are with an environment, the more you are aware when things are unusual and could be significant.

BTW - the cave with the pack-rat nest. The room it was discovered in was protected from vandals by concealing the passageway leading to it. Spray-paint and trash lead up to that point.

1.1k · January 7, 2003

Cavess.

Thank you very much for the well worded and courtious response. That was all I was looking for as an answer.

I seem to have gotton off on the wrong foot with one of the other posters and I apoligize to him if I offended him, It was unintentinal.

TTFRN, logscaler

January 8, 2003

And one final word from me...

I'd like to thank Cavess for opening up this dialogue. I'm sure that you've convinced a number of cachers (myself included) about your concerns.

geospotter

January 8, 2003

Dear All,

I think it’s appropriate at this time to close this discussion and thank everyone for the excellent discussions, ideas and points. I have a lot of faith that I can take away these ideas and introduce them to the broader caving community, and I am personally looking forward to working with many members of the geocaching community.

I just want to re-emphasize one point: We, the caving community, do NOT think that the geocaching community is damaging caves. We are simply concerned about the posting of sensitive cave locations, which could allow vandals to damage these environments.

Since this discussion began, several incidents have occurred which make me believe that a new level of understanding and cooperation is about to begin between our two communities.

Many thanks

Hazel

January 8, 2003

We are all familiar with new Geocachers who don't realize the pencil sharpeners, pencils, pens, and disposable cameras should stay with the cache! Cache's need to be returned to their proper location with proper level of concealment. If you're taking something, try to leave something of like value (although subjective). If you take a TB, treat it responsibly.

There are certain protocals that one should follow, information imparted by Geocaching.com, the cache note, and/or these forums.

The NSS, not surprisingly, functions the same way! Cavers are a tremendously open community (like Geocachers), welcoming anyone who shows an interest. When I take new people caving, they are surprised that solid rock can be so fragile and takes so long to form. There are safety considerations, etc.

The "secrecy" issue that many don't comprehend relates to the same thing.

Surely you can appreciate that ignorance is not a good thing. The entire purpose of cache notes is to eliminate ignorance and thereby hopefully prevent vandalism before it occurs.

That's the same purpose of not posting cave coordinates publicly.

(There, I believe that's comprehendable..)

So, are cavers keeping caves just for themselves? Nope! The NSS is an open organization that invites anyone to join and willingly shares information.

Please come caving, you can find a local chapter (called "Groto" within the NSS) via the website. For those in Southwestern, CT, feel free to contact me. My brother and I grew up caving and have extra equipment specifically for the un-initiated.

Lastly, I would like to thank Cavess/Hazel for doing a phenomenal job as a representative of the NSS. You successfully objectively provided very useful information in answer to all queries in a rather timely fashion. Thank you!

Although the NSS has simply asked for open communication and a receptive attitude, I still personally think we should take it upon ourselves to integrate some pro-cave guidelines into Geocaching.com.

My choice would be for existing caches to be evaluated by the new guidelines and future cache approval be moderated by such.

I know Cavess/Hazel thinks this discussion can conclude, but I'm a person of action! I'd ask that we turn to discussing how we might help, what course of action might be suitable.

So, can we formulate some guidelines?

Randy

4.4k · January 8, 2003

Like Me I am sure that most cavers when contacted, in person,and were were asked to show you what they know about would be glad to give you a tour.That is one of the main aspects of Geocaching to show others or to bring them to areas that they might never know about.Like me also I believe that they require a code of ethics as we do, as well. I would not take ole JOE BLOW just anywhere!I have Learned like the Scout Master Know before you Go.that is not being secret!!!!!!!!!!

When all else fails Geotry again.

2.5k · January 16, 2003

Hmm, I may have to rethink my feelings about secrecy of caves after seeing this.

2.5k · January 16, 2003

Hmm, I may have to rethink my feelings about secrecy of caves after seeing this.

January 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:
Hmm, I may have to rethink my feelings about secrecy of caves after seeing http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cachelog_details.asp?ID=138239&L=796447.

I agree with you Cachew Nut... Don't think that something like this should be on the family-oriented webpage.

Funny, though...

Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now.

Caches in Caves

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