Poor judgement/behavior by a cacher

4.2k · September 15, 2003

Read the logs below copied from the cache page I was watching. The cache had a GeoCoin in it that I wanted to go get but it was a 100 mile drive (roundtrip) to get it. I decided to get it later this week when I was in the area if it was still there.

I was going to make this a poll, but I'll leave this open for comments. I sincerely hope this guy didn't have kids with him.

I've removed the names (not sure why, though...)

September 13 (by cacher):

Yikes! Our most serious caching moral dilemma to date. Never have come across a US Geocoin to date and would love to see it on my profile page as a find. However, notes in the ziploc and log book say it is for someone specific. So we sat there on the bench and analyzed the situation. This is actually my dilemma. XXXXX was neutral about this but did offer some insight into my overactive guilt mechanism as I was close to leaving the coin in the cache. But it gets worse yet. The item we would have traded for it did not fit in the container. In the end I couldn't resist and took the coin. We put the Canadian geocoin that was also in this container inside the Ziploc with the note requesting it be saved for someone specific so it is waiting for you.

Logic behind my taking the coin I really wanted it. It has been sitting here, unclaimed, for five days. When items are left for someone specific that someone should be notified in advance. When a highly coveted item is left for someone specific, that someone REALLY needs to be notified in advance. Occasionally you get to a cache, find something you absolutely need but don't have something of equal value, but you take it anyway. (We have placed over 50 container caches and can testify that geocachers generally trade up and leave items of lesser value.)

Additional support: We have replaced at least a dozen containers for other cachers when they lived too far from their cache. We have repaired and rehabbed many more caches. We almost never trade up at a cache. And dog-gone it, I really wanted to log this coin.

We live in a very rural area and don’t get out all that often to cache so we can’t pass up special items like this. Anyway – I will be making amends at future caches or will go out and place 5 new caches to make bring the universe back in balance.

By the way, nice cache placement!

September 14th (cache owner):

Wow, I just read your log Team XXXXXX. Guess what, I was that person that the coin was left for. I was just notifed today by the person who left it for me. I ran down to retrieve it immediately. It was a special present by a special friend. I'm extremeley disappointed. You knew that it was for someone specific, and took it anyway. That was wrong. All your excuses about helping out other cachers or whatever don't matter. It was wrong. I don't know what else to say.

September 15, 2003

I think the poor judgement was to leave a personal item in a public cache.

Is this a common practice?

2.3k · September 15, 2003

Well... ain't that a ***** *****!!!

This bozo was definately wrong and should apologize and return the coin to you immediately!

What he should have done was to mention his moral dilemma in his note (as he did) but leave the coin. He could have just logged finding the coin in xxx cache and returning it to xxx cache since it was promised to someone else. I don't think anyone would have taken issue with that.

---------------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow

September 15, 2003

I have never before seen such a pathetic display of self-serving rationalization. The man is a candid and audacious theif. Hopefully this thread will convince him that there was a serious error in his judgment, and he will put things right (at his expense).

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

4.2k · September 15, 2003

quote:
This bozo was definately wrong and should apologize and return the coin to you immediately!

What he _should_ have done was to mention his moral dilemma in his note (as he did) but leave the coin. He could have just logged finding the coin in xxx cache and returning it to xxx cache since it was promised to someone else. I don't think anyone would have taken issue with that.

FYI, it's not me, but thanks. I was just shocked when I read this.

I agree that he could have written down the coin # and logged it as a find noting that it was to be left for another cacher.

Sad, really.....

3k · September 15, 2003

If Team XXXXXXXX really wanted the coin just to have it show up on their cache page they could have taken it, and written down the number, taken photos of it of themselves with it, pics of them kissing it, or whatever, written down the number of it, and put right back into the same container. They didn't need to carry it away. If they so covet geocoins, they ought to order some. They should not have removed the coin from the cache when specific instructions were given. Bad Cachers!! Slap! Also, I think they mean trade down not up in their post. Trading up would mean putting in something good and taking out something crappy.

Planet

September 15, 2003

My favorite line is, "Logic behind my taking the coin I really wanted it."

Well, at least he justified it.

And, who are you to judge? Hey, I mean, you aren't trying to force your morality on him, are you?

(sarcasm, for those of you who don't know my stand on objective morality)

Ever notice how anyone that caches more than you do is a maniac, while anyone that caches less than you do is an idiot? -Dru Morgan

5.3k · September 15, 2003

I am rubbing poison ivy on the groin region of a voodoo doll, hoping to "bring the universe back in balance."

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

Eamus Catuli AC145895

24.7k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Stunod:
I am rubbing poison ivy on the groin region of a voodoo doll, hoping to "bring the universe back in balance."

http://208.55.63.109/images/stunod_sig.gif

_"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson_

__Eamus Catuli AC145895__

Stunod, Now that's good.

Taking the coin marked for another was unethical. Deserving of perpetual poision ivy until they rectify the situation.

September 15, 2003

Well from what I have learned from previous posts, the cache is owned by the people who placed it...we are guests who visit it and leave our mark. period.

And as I have stated before, Geocaching is based on the honor system...some people have it...some people don't.

Imagine publishing for all to see that you don't... hrmmmmmph

38.2k · September 15, 2003

I think it was pretty rude, because there was a note specifically saying that the coin was for someone else. But Solohiker does have a good point (maybe for the first time ever). Why leave a personal item in a public cache?

It was rude on the part of the person who took it, but bad judgement on the part of the person who left it.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

4.8k · September 15, 2003

quote:
But Solohiker does have a good point (maybe for the first time ever). Why leave a personal item in a public cache?

Since it was a geocoin, I was assuming that it traveled to that cache through the system. Kind of like when people send objects to each other by travel bug.

September 15, 2003

Yeah, bad judgment but great rationalization!

I was quite miffed when I went out of my way to get to a cache that had a geocoin in it (long-ish drive, long-ish hike) to discover it had been taken by someone who had never cached before. They logged it in the book, but never on the site, so I didn't know it was already gone. I suspect it was who was tipped off by the leaver - "Hey man, this is pretty cool. Just go out there and get this coin...." The person isn't registered under that name, either. Maybe it was just someone wanting to keep it and not use it as a travel bug - which I can understand. In the case mentioned by the thread parent, I think we can expect he will keep it.

September 15, 2003

What zip code was the cache in?

September 15, 2003

Sounds like the guy wanted to keep the geocoin and not just move it along.

So if I donate money to charity, does it mean it is ok for me to steal from banks?

September 15, 2003

quote:
Yikes! Our most serious caching moral dilemma to date.

MORAL DILEMMA!?!!

How is theft a moral dilemma? This person stole someone's 'mail'.

"I was in a moral dilemma whether to take something addressed to someone else..."

PLEASE!

Sure, the person who left it couldn't guarantee delivery, but were that necessary they wouldn't used a different delivery system. They trusted the cache wouldn't be plundered, that some other disaster wouldn't befall it, and that cachers would respect it. Guess that person's been corrected and have learned from their mistake, having a more jaded perspective of the caching community now.

To whomever took it, please make restitution and buy your own geocoin.

If I read the circumstances wrong, please forgive me, but this seems pretty clear-cut as presented...

Randy

4.2k · September 15, 2003

The more I think about this the more it really irritates me.

To avoid me having to post any further notes from the cache page, here is the waypoint:

GCE06C.

I'm going to email the person who took the coin and let them know what I think. I'm going to be rational and not attack the person, but let them know that I think they've completely gone against both the spirit of the game and common decency. I don't want to start a flame war and am not going to engage in multiple emaisl back and forth, but maybe if he gets a few nicely worded emails about his decision we can get him to reconsider....

It's actions like this that discourgage people from leaving GeoCoins, TBs, and other nice gifts. In any case, I'm not going to let one guy spoil it for the rest of us.

September 15, 2003

So the coin was left for the owner of the cache, which if anything makes it worse. It seems reasonable to me that if someone wanted to get something to us, they might leave it in one of our caches.

If all these people really wanted was to have the coin show up on their found page, they didn't have to take it with them.

September 15, 2003

People are right, they didn't have to take the coin with them if they wanted it to show up on their found page. Maybe they realize that now and made a mistake. So, before we amass 150 posts that berate the person for the next three weeks, why don't we give the cacher a chance to redeem himself.

Apparently, the person in question is being contacted. Why don't we settle down and wait for a response? Maybe this was all a big misunderstanding and all will be set straight.

Pan

What does anybody want? I want the Red Sox to win the World Series. - Bill Pullman as Alan Safian in Malice, in response to being asked "What do you want?"

September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kite & Hawkeye:
So the coin was left for the owner of the cache, which if anything makes it worse. It seems reasonable to me that if someone wanted to get something to us, they might leave it in one of our caches.

I agree. I was so pleased with a particular cache I wanted make a donation to the owner, but I knew there would be a chance it would be nabbed.

2.3k · September 15, 2003

I just notice that the person in question has 544 finds and over 50 placements...

Definately not a newbie and he certainly has enough geocaching experience to have known better.

I think he made a bad judgement call and hopefully he will make restitution once he realizes it.

---------------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow

5.7k · September 15, 2003

Note to self: If I ever end up doing the wrong thing, don't document it on geocaching.com.

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
_Note to self:_ If I ever end up doing the wrong thing, don't document it on geocaching.com.

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

LOL!!! I was just about to post the same thing.

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

"Never declare war on a man who buys his ink by the gallon."

September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
_Note to self:_ If I ever end up doing the wrong thing, don't document it on geocaching.com.

Honest, or stupid? YOU DECIDE.

September 15, 2003

OK. I have decided. Stupid. In my experience, a thief always has justification for taking something.

September 15, 2003

While I agree with the posts about taking the geocoin was wrong,but are any of you really surprised that it was taken? I just placed a geocoin #10699 and asked that it be passed through 50 caches and the 50th finder was free to keep it or keep it going. How many caches do you think it will make? Yes it has been taken and logged by the first finder.

I see your lips moving but all I hear is blah blah blah

September 15, 2003

It was wrong for him to take it when he knew it was for someone else.

However, the only thing that I will even consider a bit in his defense is: Did it say in the LOGS that it was for someone else? Currently, it says "Also left Geocoin#2 for Frankenlurch to find." -- but the message has been edited after this stuff occurred.

I am curious if it originally said something along the lines of "Also left Geocoin#2." (without the note that it was for someone specific). If that IS the case, then I think the person leaving did something fairly rude too...

If went there expecting it to be available because of the logs, and then it had a note on it there saying not to take it -- well, I can see him being upset. I can even see him coming here to complain about it (i.e. "If you are going to leave something for someone specific, you should mention that IN THE LOG"). Of course, he'd still be wrong to TAKE it -- but he'd at least have an argument for being upset.

Of course, if the log has always said that it was for someone specific, then that whole point is moot and he was just a jerk to take it at all.

- John...

September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:
I just placed a geocoin #10699 and asked that it be passed through 50 caches and the 50th finder was free to keep it or keep it going. How many caches do you think it will make? Yes it has been taken and logged by the first finder.

Are you saying you don't think the person who took the coin will place it in another cache?

He has only had it for 2 days and even says that his next trip will be on "9/16 or so".

I hope you will give him some time to place it before you get upset with him.

~Shaggy~

September 15, 2003

Shaggy I was by no means implying that the person that had taken the geocoin and logged it would keep it and not move it on. I do however think that it will not make the 50 caches before it disappears. I hope I am wrong, but would you like to place a little geobet on it? If I win you have to do 2 of the hardest caches in your area the same weekend, if you win I'll do the same. ps. I'm still sore as heck after this weekends cache lol.

September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:
Shaggy I was by no means implying that the person that had taken the geocoin and logged it would keep it and not move it on. I do however think that it will not make the 50 caches before it disappears. I hope I am wrong, but would you like to place a little geobet on it? If I win you have to do 2 of the hardest caches in your area the same weekend, if you win I'll do the same. ps. I'm still sore as heck after this weekends cache lol.

Sorry, It's hard to read the emotions or meanings behind some posts. Thats why I asked the question and stressed patience.

As for the Geobet lol, I am willing if you are. Seems like I can think of alot of excuses to avoid the harder caches. Maybe that will get me off my tail and moving. If I lose you can pick the caches!

~Shaggy~

September 15, 2003

Deal! and the same goes for you if it makes all 50 you get to pick the caches. Somehow I think I'm going to regret this lol.

September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by John & Bretta:
It was wrong for him to take it when he knew it was for someone else.

However, the only thing that I will even consider a bit in his defense is: Did it say in the LOGS that it was for someone else? Currently, it says "Also left Geocoin#2 for Frankenlurch to find." -- but the message has been edited after this stuff occurred.

I am curious if it originally said something along the lines of "Also left Geocoin#2." (without the note that it was for someone specific). If that IS the case, then I think the person leaving did something fairly rude too...

If went there expecting it to be available because of the logs, and then it had a note on it there saying not to take it -- well, I can see him being upset. I can even see him coming here to complain about it (i.e. "If you are going to leave something for someone specific, you should mention that IN THE LOG"). Of course, he'd still be wrong to TAKE it -- but he'd at least have an argument for being upset.

EXCELLENT point. I'd be pissed if it just said there was a coin there online and got out there and there was some note reserving it for someone.

Giving it to the cache owner is cool, but I hope this doesn't become a trend where people trade with certain cliques (I doubt it).

Also, I don't really like this idea of geocoins being travel bugs - I'd rather they just be coins.

September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
...But Solohiker does have a good point (maybe for the first time ever). Why leave a personal item in a public cache?

I find comfort in the fact that BrainSnag rarely agrees with me.

4.2k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Also, I don't really like this idea of geocoins being travel bugs - I'd rather they just be coins.

The nature of the coin is to be tracked (thus the number of them). I agree that sometimes a coin is a very cool collectible, but the ones that are aren't numbered. I know for a fact that at least some of the Oregon coins don't have numbers and are meant for prizes.

On a side note, I would have been VERY mad after driving 50 miles to get this coin (me, not him) only to find out that it was meant for someone special. I still wouldn't have taken it, though.

I also agree that it was bad etiquette for the 'leaver' to not note this on the page originally. Still.....

September 15, 2003

Only 2 words for that "person"

dirt bag

or mabybe just 1 word

thief

Post his nick

1.7k · September 15, 2003

No matter what the rational, no matter how inconvenienced you are, it still isn't right to take something that specifically says is meant for another person. It isn't like it was done out of ignorance. This cacher deliberately thought it through and figured out a way to justify it to him/herself. Weasel.

Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes

On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so:

"Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges --

"Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!"

Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898

4.2k · September 16, 2003

To close the loop on this one:

The person who took the coin has agreed to send it back to the original recipient.

I exchanged a few emails with the recipient and she has kept me in the loop. Glad to know that it eventaully worked out for her.

Sheesh!

9.5k · September 16, 2003

That's excellent to hear. Thanks for the update!

Cheers!

TL

5.3k · September 16, 2003

Well, that worked out in the end. Nice work Kealia!

Now, does anyone know how to remove a voodoo poison ivy curse?

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

Eamus Catuli AC145895

2.7k · September 16, 2003

Hey! I'm the guy who took #10699!

Just kidding... The weather looks to be clear , so I will be placing it Wednesday morning after I get out of my 3rd shift job.

I'll leave the location as an awesome suprise. Or maybe a mildly entertaining suprise. Or... meh.

*shuts up now*

---------------------

Don't hurt me. I'm new here.

2.7k · September 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by New England n00b:
Hey! I'm the guy who took #10699!

http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/kaelerraenen/images/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

_PUT UP YER DUKES!!!!!_

Just kidding... The weather looks to be clear , so I will be placing it Wednesday morning after I get out of my 3rd shift job.

I'll leave the location as an awesome suprise. Or maybe a mildly entertaining suprise. Or... meh.

*shuts up now*

---------------------

http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/kaelerraenen/images/16x16_smiley-mad.gif Don't hurt me. I'm new here.

---------------------

Don't hurt me. I'm new here.

2.7k · September 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by New England n00b:

quote:
Originally posted by New England n00b:
Hey! I'm the guy who took #10699!

Just kidding... The weather looks to be clear , so I will be placing it Wednesday morning after I get out of my 3rd shift job.

I'll leave the location as an awesome suprise. Or maybe a mildly entertaining suprise. Or... meh.

*shuts up now*

---------------------

http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/kaelerraenen/images/16x16_smiley-mad.gif Don't hurt me. I'm new here.

---------------------

http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/kaelerraenen/images/16x16_smiley-mad.gif Don't hurt me. I'm new here.

---------------------

Don't hurt me. I'm new here.

4.2k · September 16, 2003

Don't suppose there's any chance you'll be dropping that coin in my neck of the woods, huh?

Probably not enough time between shifts to jump coasts....

2.7k · September 16, 2003

Ohhhhhh, man where's the cream filling?

Er, the EDIT button?!?!?!

That was NOT what I intended, sorry folks.

*hangs head in shame*

---------------------

Don't hurt me. I'm new here.

2.7k · September 16, 2003

quote:
Probably not enough time between shifts to jump coasts....

Hehehehe, an accurate assessment...

---------------------

Don't hurt me. I'm new here.

1.1k · September 16, 2003

ok so we all agreed that the person who took the coin not intended for him was wrong...I am sure that maybe a small percentage of people here woudl do the same...maybe. In the end though he has agreed to sent it to the original intended receipients, and in the process has hopefully learned something and made his life better because of this. Remember, we all learn from our mistakes.

But one question that I am curious about is, Why did the person who originally leave the coin, leave it specifically for the cache owner? What was so special about it that the cache owner specifically wanted it. Who is the owner of the coin? Is it the cache owner or the person who left the coin? If the coin is owned by someone else, then a very good question is, what right did the person who left the coin have to specifically leave it for the cache owner (without the coin owner's consent), as these coins are meant to move from cache to cache. And what did the cache owner intend to do with the coin after they got it? Move it on, or keep it? Anyone have a link to the coin page so that we can track the coin as that might provide some more insight to these questions? And lastly, was there an actual note attached to the physical coin while in the cache?

...just some extra stuff to think about.

http://ca.geocities.com/geocachingcanada

http://ca.geocities.com/rsab2100/pond.html

September 16, 2003

Aha!

A mistake recified. Poor judgment admitted and the problem set straight.

Whew. Luckily we didn't berate the person who made the mistake with 40 posts about what a jackass he was.

That would be embarassing.

Pan

What does anybody want? I want the Red Sox to win the World Series. - Bill Pullman as Alan Safian in Malice, in response to being asked "What do you want?"

9.5k · September 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
Aha!

A mistake recified. Poor judgment admitted and the problem set straight.

Whew. Luckily we didn't berate the person who made the mistake with 40 posts about what a jackass he was.

That would be embarassing.

Pan

_What does anybody want? I want the Red Sox to win the World Series._ - Bill Pullman as Alan Safian in Malice, in response to being asked "What do you want?"

ROFL too late

Cheers!

TL

September 16, 2003

In response to res2100's post:

I am the cache owner that the coin was being dropped off to. The reason was - that I had just missed it in another cache that I had found, but it was still logged as being there. So in my disappointment, I mentioned it in my log. Well, the person who had just picked it up felt bad for me (I had never found one before), and knew that I had a cache nearby and left it for me. It was for me to find, log and pass on to another cache - not keep! He just did it because he's a very sweet man, and knew how disappointed that I was. That's all that was intended! And I can't give you the number to track, because the man who took it still has it. He says that he's mailing it to me. Oh, and yes, there was a physical note in the cache, with the request on it. It was actually in the ziplock bag with the coin - that he took out and replaced with the Canadian coin, which seemed a bit disceetful to me. He said that he'd do it again, he doesn't think he did anything wrong. Except he'd word it differently next time. He actually edited the entry on the cache page so that he doesn't look so bad. Interesting, that's all I have to say. I hope that clears up any questions you may have had.

2.3k · September 16, 2003

I feel closure...

and a job well done??

---------------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow

Poor judgement/behavior by a cacher

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