In case you were still open-minded

2.1k · September 23, 2003

I just wanted to point out this page that has links back to geocaching.com:

http://www.piratecaching.com/returned1.htm

It looks like NudeCacher had some fun with this game as well as Chorse and Sophia. They don't seem to post in the forums so instead of "how cool is this new game??" we get "my condolences for the loss of your loved ones, brian".

Just felt that it might be better if people kept a bit more "even keel", as the pirates say, about the whole thing by reading about good experiences from piratecaching.com's better members.

PS - If there are any pirates in the Boston area who would like to have a cache made available to them to pirate (By The Rules, not simply stolen) at a future date, contact me personally and I will place my first geocache (to be pirated at a later date).

--

http://www.nedevett.com/gollum.swf

2.1k · September 23, 2003

Thanks for posting that link ju66l3r. I see that have pirated my pirate smilie too...

Brian

www.woodsters.com

38.2k · September 23, 2003

Nudecacher may be having fun. He's been known to have fun in strange ways. I look at the comments in logs for caches that have been pirated in my area and see stuff like "What kind of person would do this?" and "The kids were disappointed". Woah, a boatload of fun for these people! Lets give the local families more fun like this!

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

2.1k · September 23, 2003

Reason it away however you like, but the fact remains someone had fun doing the pirated cache.

And yes, Brian, we have already read about those (and they are the only 2 negative ones so far). The person who wrote "kids...disappointed" also wrote "this cache was fun" after they went and retrieved the pirated goodies. They also correctly pointed out that the person who pirated that cache did not completely follow the rules (they shouldn't have combined 2 pirating adventures..or they should have left the same note at both caches).

My post was so that people could see ones that weren't negative and get a much more even view of this whole matter. And if anyone's interested in keeping score, that's 3 happy/neutrals and 2 unhappies. The more zealous will comment that any unhappy is one too many, but have we all been beaming about every caching experience we've ever had?

--

http://www.nedevett.com/gollum.swf

1k · September 23, 2003

"Reason it away however you like, but the fact remains..." theft is still theft, and it is wrong. Attempting to justify it by giving examples of someone deriving pleasure from it just doesn't float. Tolerance, or even popularity, is not a valid measure of the morality of ANY conduct. "Open-mindedness" that seeks to justify bad conduct doesn't help one "keep an even keel"; it leads to moral shipwreck. There is greater need for discernment and discrimination here than for open-mindedness.

worldtraveler

September 23, 2003

quote:
August 27 by Peanut Butter Brigade (0 found) [owner of cache]

Thanks to everyone for leaving extra trinkets behind in our cache. The geocaching pirate emailed us with coordinates for a cache filled with new loot. Chorse found that for us today, and she'll be placing the contents in our Dragonfly Pond cache this evening.

Chorse, you deserve a round of applause!

clap clap CLAP CLAP clap clap CLAP CLAP clap

Bravo!!!!

Granted, this is just one log of the three but it sounds like the owner was happier with the cacher who restored the contents of his/her cache than the pirates for providing a "new dimension" to the game.

Maybe what the "official" pirates are doing doesn't deserve the lynching most cachers are working up to but they've sailed out into uncharted seas and must face the consequences.

The pirates may be having fun with this but the fact remains that most of the owners of the caches are displeased with the pirates actions. You can talk all you like about how this is "adding something to the game" but until you can SHOW the cache owners this, you're just going to be wasting your breath.

Would I be furious if one of my caches was looted? No. Would I be put out at the extra work it created? Yes. I have enough to do already: please don't make me go out and check my caches if it's not necessary. (And don't tell me it wouldn't be necessary: any responsible cache owner checks on her cache when something goes awry.)

Ode to a Pigeon: Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, You Lookin' at Me? YOU LOOKIN' AT ME?! (b. katt, 7/14/03)

1.6k · September 23, 2003

I am perplexed still about something I have heard in various threads. Some folks who have never hidden a cache would like the pirate to visit their area so they can get a 'free' container?

From another thread I posted in:

quote:
These 'para-sites' aim to gain their own momentum by leeching off of someone else's efforts. In the specific example of p#####caching.com, it is clear that any momentum that site hopes to gain will come solely from the efforts of geocachers and geocaching.com

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
Reason it away however you like, but the fact remains someone had fun doing the pirated cache.

No doubt, but in order for them to enjoy it, someone (the owner) had to be disappointed.

When I was six I stole a candy bar from Roses Dept. store & it was very satisfying....didn't make it any more right though.

4.2k · September 23, 2003

Sounds like a lot of fun for me. I take the time to place a cache near a spot that I've carefully picked out and want others to join, and some knucklehead takes all the stuff out of my cache so that others have to make another hike to find the goods?

Yeah, sounds like a blast to me......

2.1k · September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by enfanta:

Granted, this is just one log of the three but it sounds like the owner was happier with the cacher who restored the contents of his/her cache than the pirates for providing a "new dimension" to the game.

This is from the same person of the Peanut Butter Brigade as posted on piratecaching.com:

"The Pirate has given out loot back and it looks to new and better that before!

So far this has turned out ot be fun I see no reason to put the Pirate in Jail.

The Peanut Butter Brigade has teamed up with a cacher in the area where our cache Dragonfly Pond is placed and Chorse is has proven to our friend.

Pepper "

Just wanted to say that it seems they found it more enjoyable than even their gc.com note said.

As far as the extra work goes, if the very next cacher (after the pirate has been by) plays along, then you wouldn't even have known anything happened (cache contents in place and pirate booty added as well).

--

http://www.nedevett.com/gollum.swf

2.1k · September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:
I am perplexed still about something I have heard in various threads. Some folks who have never hidden a cache would like the pirate to visit their area so they can get a 'free' container?

In a previous thread there was a photo of one of the ransom letters. In the letter, it stated that the cache contents were rehidden in a container that would be suitable for a new cache somewhere else should the searcher want to use it for such.

Also, in response to Kealia, this was a blast for quite a few folks in Seattle evidently.

--

http://www.nedevett.com/gollum.swf

38.2k · September 23, 2003

quote:
Also, in response to Kealia, this was a blast for quite a few folks in Seattle evidently.

--

Oh yeah, it's a real blast for me. I have to drive 50 miles round trip to hunt down the contents that were stolen from my cache, so I can re-activate it. That will be soooo much fun! I just can't wait! Yeee haaaa!

Isn't it ironic that most of the people who so enthusiastically support cache thievery either don't own any caches, or own a couple?

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

September 23, 2003

So Brian are you are aren't you going to pull all your caches? I haven't done any of yours so cannot say if they are good or su*k I just wanted to know as I have a trip coming up and I saw one of your caches in the general location. I can see why you may be pi$$ed if someone mess's with one of your caches, you have way to many to maintain alone, and if someone adds any extra work to one you're done. Have you ever thought of maybe asking some cachers in the area to help you with the maintance of some of the caches you place? From the reaction of the posters i think it would be a shame to lose your caches, so if you need a little help just ask, I'm sure people would be more then willing to help out, I know I would if I lived in your area.

September 23, 2003

OK, I'm a newby, and even though I own a couple of caches, they're micros and not the kind of thing jerks (oh, I'm sorry, "pirates") would want to mess with (so far, anyway.) I have had one of my micros dissappear and I had to replace it. So while I don't actually "have a dog in this fight" as a friend of mine used to say, I have spoken up about this pirating thing in the forums, because I think it's basically wrong for the game.

It's NOT an interesting twist on the game, it's just annoying as hell and very inconsiderate to the cache owner and the poor people who come upon the empty cache. If they get permission, sure, but otherwise you're just stealing or tampering with a cache. seems simple to me, I don't know whay a few apologists are so gung-ho about condoning this activity.

September 23, 2003

I have been reading the message boards on the pirate cacher page. All they do is steal caches and then brag about it to each other.

Reminds me of the bullies in school. They would take someones things and then make the victim humiliate themselves to get it back.

If you are wanting to support such a group of attention loving vandals go ahead. I have seen your kind come and go all my life. You will get your jollies and then move on when you feel the need for more attention. How someone can support such acts is beyond me.

There was a saying in the old west- Ride with an outlaw, hang with an outlaw.

Get a life and leave the rest of us alone!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

4.2k · September 23, 2003

quote:
Also, in response to Kealia, this was a blast for quite a few folks in Seattle evidently.

You know what would be fun for me? Coming to your house in the middle of the night and moving your car to a new location while you weren't aware of it. Imagine the fun I would have knowing that you were looking for something that was supposed to be there but wasn't .

Of course, I could leave a note telling you were it was and how to get it back and I could even use a cool pirate voice (Irish accent, heiroglyphics, Arabic, you choose) and call myself a cool name.

Forget about the fact that this might inconvenience you in some way. What a great surprise that would be for you, eh?

Sounding like fun?

Before you post that moving a car and moving McToys are a world apart - they're not. The concept is the same. That's like saying that stealing a candy bar and stealing a watch are different as well. They're not; the concept is the same. It's wrong.

If the 'pirate experience' is what I wanted cachers to have, I would have set up the cache as an offset or a mystery cache with my own note!

'Nuff said.

September 23, 2003

Kelia,

I think you are off the mark on those activities being the same. When I park my car in my driveway, I'm (usually) not playing a game, nor do I expect the car to disappear.

When I hide a geocache 1) I am playing a game and 2) I HAVE to accept that my cache, eventually, no matter how well hidden, may get stolen.

I think the example may be lacking, and that there may be better analogies.

Pan

Here there be tigers. - My response when asked by a fellow Geocacher to describe the attitude of the forums.

September 23, 2003

Hmm lets see if this stands up, if I parked my car and you decided to move it, I can shot you and not go to jail. If I moved your cache and you shot me you'd go to jail. Not the same thing, but I do get the point.

6.5k · September 23, 2003

No I'm with Kealia on this one.

Pantalaimon wrote:

quote:
think you are off the mark on those activities being the same. When I park my car in my driveway, I'm (usually) not playing a game, nor do I expect the car to disappear.
When I hide a geocache 1) I am playing a game and 2) I HAVE to accept that my cache, eventually, no matter how well hidden, may get stolen.

I beg to disagree with this position. You are agreeing to play a game by the rules that have already been established, not by some jerk who wants to rewriite them.

And as to your car being a different issue-I guess you never drive a bit east to Boston? You just might need to wonder if your car will be where you parked it in that fair city.

These changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes;

Nothing remains quite the same.

Through all of the islands and all of the highlands,

If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:
sorry for the double.

Actually, you just quoted yourself.

******************************************************

Caching without music is like swimming without water.

******************************************************

September 23, 2003

It is amazing to me that anyone (ju66l3r) who owns zero caches should think his opinion on this matter has any value whatsoever.

If you have such a low opinion of yourself that you would invite disrespect for your own creativity, then that's your problem, I guess. But leave the rest of us out of it.

Go put some creative work into some caches (no drive-bys, please), then come back and tell us how you feel after someone uses them for their own version of the game - one that you personally have no interest in.

Pirating caches without permission is wrong. YOu may THINK you would have more fun looking for pirated caches, but if all of us who place our own caches decide to stop doing it because of this - where will you be then.

It's really no skin off my nose if I never place another cache. If pirating becomes a problem in my area, I will do something entirely different to make pirating impossible. Maybe I'll go fishing. I won't do this to give cheap thrills to someone who is arrogant enough to hijack others work for their own entertainment - or arrogant enough to disrespect others in the name of "improving the game" without their consent.

Let them place their own caches, and then pirate those caches. If it is truly about improving the game, that should work for them - but it won't, because the whole thing is really about messing with someone and the "power" they feel as a result.

"...clear as mud?"

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:
It is amazing to me that anyone (ju66l3r) who owns zero caches should think his opinion on this matter has any value whatsoever.

Sorry after that statement all I heard was blah blah blah.

I too own zero caches, so in your eyes both myself and all the other hundereds of cachers who do not own a cache have no value or anything to add to the game. Great

"...clear as mud?"

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:

Let them place their own caches, and then pirate those caches. If it is truly about improving the game, that should work for them - but it won't, because the whole thing is really about messing with someone and the "power" they feel as a result.

yes, I think this is true. Thanks!

September 23, 2003

I think that is true for some and not for others. There is a problem in trying to place everyone in a group, It just shows you are unwilling to see anyone eles's point of view, and that your point of view is the only valid one out there. My problem is I see the good and bad on both sides so have a hard time picking what is the best solution. I envy the people that see their side as right and everyone else is wrong. No matter what anyone else says.

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:
Hmm lets see if this stands up, if I parked my car and you decided to move it, I can shot you and not go to jail.

What state are you in?! Here in Kalifornia, you can only shoot someone if you can later prove in court that your life was in danger. Heck, a burglar who slips on a roller-skate while cleaning out your house can take you to court for negligence - and win! *sigh*

--

Pehmva!

Random quote:

sigimage.php

September 23, 2003

I live in NH the Live Free or Die State

2.5k · September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:
If I moved your cache and you shot me you'd go to jail.

You are assuming that you lived to testify.

September 23, 2003

LOL very true nut.

September 23, 2003

Yes, I think I'd enjoy messing with someone else’s cache but if someone messed with mine and I found out who did the deed I'd mess with them in every way possible. I've always had a philosophy of seven times, if someone does something to me I repay them seven times. The eye for an eye thing just doesn't cut it for me.

September 23, 2003

quote:
If I moved your cache and you shot me you'd go to jail.

They would never find the body. Remember, Geocachers know all the good hiding spots.

Friends help you move, REAL friends help you move bodies!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

4.5k · September 23, 2003

A visit to the woods….shhh, let’s listen in…

“Hey buddy, what’d’ya doin’ in the lake with my minnow bucket?”

“Ah, ahem, ah, well, I was just adjusting it so them little shiners could get more fresh water. It’ll keep ‘em alive longer, ya know.”

“Well, maybe so, but I wish you wudn’t mess around with my personal property. Fer a moment I thought yer wuz stealin’ it. By the way, ya haven’t seen an ammo can around here have ya? I cud a swore I placed it nearby. My son’s a preacher man and geocacher, ya know. Asked me to hide it fer himself while I was out bassin’. Strange hobby he has, ya know. Takes these little bibles, sticks em in an ammo box and hides it in them woods. Then people come alookin’ fer it. Strange way to find God if you ask me. Why not just go to church or sumthin'? By the way, nuthin wrong with hiding bible-filled ammo boxes is there?”

“Ohh no. Ah, Of course not. Go right ahead. I can't imagine anyone just takin' it and messing around with God.”

2.5k · September 23, 2003

Where the heck are Ranger Jim and Ranger Rick when you need them?

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Greenback:
Yes, I think I'd enjoy messing with someone else’s cache but if someone messed with mine and I found out who did the deed I'd mess with them in every way possible. I've always had a philosophy of seven times, if someone does something to me I repay them seven times. The eye for an eye thing just doesn't cut it for me.

Just a thought Greenback, what if the person who messed with you also had the "seven times rule"? So he messed with you, you mess him up seven times he messes with you 49 times? Then where do you go from there? Theres one thing I remember that was drilled into me in the Army. There is always someone better then you, and if you try and find him you will, most times you'll regret it. I don't think you should compermise your beliefs, do what you think is right, just remember not all people play be your rules.

As for you Bilder....not gonna mess with you either you have to many "REAL" friends, and my insurance policy states the body needs to be found for the family to collect the money.

2.1k · September 23, 2003

In response to some of the latest posts, I'd like to just say "so what?". But I can't because I'm more verbose than that.

1) BrianSnat: If driving 50 miles is too arduous to maintain your cache, then maybe you should not have placed it 50 miles away... n'est pas? Assuming your cache was pirated according to the rules, you don't have to do anything other than re-enable it for the next cacher to work out the mystery (warn them ahead of time, if you like, so only the hardiest of souls will walk the extra 2000 feet to get the bag of goodies)...if it was pillaged in any other way, I'm not defending it, don't even try and pin that kind of junk in my justification.

2) Bilder: No, you're not reading their website at all...you're skimming. The owner of the website is very nice to the hiders of the caches he has gone too and has been very courteous in getting their stuff back to them quickly. One or two others have not been the best pirates and one or two others (who only posted once or twice and are not 'official') have claimed to pillage a cache taking everything including logbook and not leaving any trace or clue of how to retrieve the contents for the next cacher (although we've heard nothing of this from the actual hiders of these caches).

3) Kealia: Move my car (a locked possession in my private driveway that in no way involves or invites you) or move your cache contents (an unlocked tupperware in the woods that is listed on a website intended to be found and rifled through)...oh, right, completely analogous. Took nothing, left .

4) Starship: Finally, it's amazing to me that you think your opinion has any value whatsoever, especially after you disqualify yourself by making such a base statement about the other people in this sport (the finders). It is not about disrespecting me for my creativity (if they were to pirate a cache of mine) but that it would be about evolving and adding to a game that I've found to be enjoyable in its old and new form. Some people put a $500 under Free Parking in Monopoly to be given to the first person who lands directly on that corner. Originally, the rules didn't include that at all. Now, if you buy a Monopoly set, it's listed in a "variation of the game" section at the end of the rules. It was so popular and did not spoil the original game, so it was finally recognized as a variant. This has that same potential, if it is done right.

Read the piratecaching.com website for the caches that were pirated in Seattle (there are three at the link above). These weren't power trips, they were good clean fun and the recipients (cache hider and note finder) played it as such and had a good time.

Ultimately, this will probably my final serious response to those that would disparage rather than attempt to develop or incorporate this new diversion into the game. I even used an appropriate topic title ("in case you were still open-minded") because I didn't want to preach to the zealots (and I didn't want them trying to preach to me). Unless you're willing to work on a solution that enables enjoyable pirating (such as pre-warning a cache hider of an upcoming pirating), then I wasn't looking to discuss the topic with you anyways, since you're not looking to change your mind and I'm only willing to change mine to better fit this into the game, not to dissolve and destroy it. So, posts of the nature seen above (i.e., your opinion is devoid of value and you're unfit to play my game with me unless I get to steal your car) will not be responded to in the future.

I'm not looking to tame a behemoth, I'm trying to see if we can play a new variation on an old game. BTW, the All-Star game in baseball this year determined the home-field advantage for the World Series. It didn't used to be that way, but some say it enhanced the appeal of the All-Star game. Games evolve. Dinosaurs go extinct. C'est la vie. Only those truly open-minded need apply (there's 6 page thread already going for the rest of you to witchhunt and pirate-hate). Thank you, The Management.

--

http://www.nedevett.com/gollum.swf

Edited for clarity.

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:
I think that is true for some and not for others. There is a problem in trying to place everyone in a group, It just shows you are unwilling to see anyone eles's point of view, and that your point of view is the only valid one out there. My problem is I see the good and bad on both sides so have a hard time picking what is the best solution. I envy the people that see their side as right and everyone else is wrong. No matter what anyone else says.

Xitron, I sympathize with your moral dilemma, I really do-- I'm often there myself-- but I have to ask for a little explanation and elucidation about the "good side" of tampering with caches, stealing goods from caches and placing them elsewhere, or outright stealing caches and not replacing anything, all without permission or knowledge of the owner or other cachers.

is the good side that it provides an "interesting twist" on the game? because most cachers I've seen post about this topic don't agree this is true. Maybe that's because I'm too morally simple and see my point of view as the only one out there.

September 23, 2003

I also apologise to ju66l3r for helping screw up his thread which was supposed to unite and give voice to all the open-minded cachers who agree with and support the actions of the downtrodden and falsely accused pirates and would like to find ways to incorporate this fascinating new twist into the game!

No offense, ju66l3r, but you didn't really make that crystal clear when you started this thread, and to complain about hearing dissenting voices now is a little weak.

I AM still open-minded, though, and will consider any argument that can convince me that pirate activity on unsuspecting caches is fun for all and for the good of the game!

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
I'm not looking to tame a behemoth, I'm trying to see if we can play a new variation on an old game.

Ju66l3r, you have not made it very clear to me where you stand on the basic ethic of respecting the property of others. Tell me unequivocally that you do not support, or in anyway advocate the interference of caches without the owner's consent/permission, and I would be pleased to listen to any suggested variations on Geocaching that you may have.

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:

...it would be about evolving and adding to a game that I've found to be enjoyable in its old and new form. Some people put a $500 under Free Parking in Monopoly to be given to the first person who lands directly on that corner. Originally, the rules didn't include that at all. Now, if you buy a Monopoly set, it's listed in a "variation of the game" section at the end of the rules. It was so popular and did not spoil the original game, so it was finally recognized as a variant. This has that same potential, if it is done right.

The caveat is, and I believe this is the thing that some are missing, is that in the above example, all the people playing the game agree to the variant. this isn't true of the current pirate activity, that I am aware of.

4.2k · September 23, 2003

quote:
3) Kealia: Move my car (a locked possession in my private driveway that in no way involves or invites you) or move your cache contents (an unlocked tupperware in the woods that is listed on a website intended to be found and rifled through)...oh, right, completely analogous. Took nothing, left .

Final post for me as this topic is ridiculous.

Look at the big picture in my comparison. Why is moving a car wrong? Because society acts by an agreed upon set of rules, both written and unwritten. By playing this game of Geocaching we have also agreed to play by a set of rules.

I did not agree to put my caches out there for others to manipulate, move, etc. because they (alone or a small majority) think it's fun. In both situations a behavior that is not an agreed upon standard is unwelcome.

If you can't see that comparison and and take the easy route of 'car vs. tupperware' how open-minded is that? Thinking a bit small if you ask me.

quote:
Only those truly open-minded need apply (there's 6 page thread already going for the rest of you to witchhunt and pirate-hate).

So, only those who agree may post and earn the right to have an opinion here. All others with differing opinions are close-minded. Got it.

1k · September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
...I'm trying to see if we can play a new variation on an old game...Thank you, The Management.

Whoa, ju6613r, time for a reality check.

First, how is this game OLD? The ones you used for comparison have been around for over 100 years. Geocaching is a little over 3.

Second, there IS Management, and you are not it.

Third, the REAL management has already spoken: Pirating in all its variations is NOT a legitimate twist on this game at this website. If you want to promote it, have the decency to get your own soapbox.

worldtraveler

[This message was edited by worldtraveler on September 24, 2003 at 04:52 AM.]

1.3k · September 23, 2003

Within the guidleines of the game there is the potential to have a multi spring off an existing cache. It says that among the things you may find in a cache are clues to other caches. If pirates want to give us a longer walk, or an extra challenge, let them leave some clues to another, unlisted, cache in the caches they visit. They should, however, grow up and stop taking the contents of the cache as they do this.

Some people are born great, some achieve greatness, and some just grate

38.2k · September 24, 2003

quote:
1) BrianSnat: If driving 50 miles is too arduous to maintain your cache, then maybe you should not have placed it 50 miles away... n'est pas?

50 miles RT is reasonable for a maint trip, when I do it on my own schedule. If I'm responding to a plundered cache, it's annoying, but I assume it's my fault, because I chose a poor spot, or didn't hide it well enough. What really ticks me off are the miscreants who intentionally target caches to F with. Until this current theif came along, this type of cache tampering, or theft was extremely rare in this area. I have a lot of caches to maintian and a fairly regular maintnenace schedule and I really don't need morons like this giving me added work.

quote:
Assuming your cache was pirated according to the rules, you don't have to do anything other than re-enable it for the next cacher to work out the mystery

It wasn't, but that's just part of the problem. As more of these miscreants come along and join in on the "fun" of tampering with other people's hard work, there will be more who don't follow the "rules", or who make their own variation of their "game".

Tell you what. Since you think this is such a dandy idea, how about you place a few caches? Go and shell out a few hundred dollars to put together a dozen, or so caches. Spend a few weeks studying sat photos and topo maps, looking for good spots. Then spend the good part of a few afternoons hiking to these areas to plan your placement and a few more to actually place them. After you're done, post to the pirate website inviting them to come and raid your caches. That should please you to no end.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

2.7k · September 24, 2003

FWIW, BrianSnat, in the 'other' forum they are calling you a conspirator with Jeremy to ultimately lock out GC.com from the public. Funny stuff, if it weren't for the fact they are thieves (see Snoogles(sp?) post on p.7 of Jeremy's thread).

I'll likely never be down there to check out your caches, but thanks for doing it anyway.

As to the initial topic:

I was open-minded until I read that one of the official pirates decided to 'eliminate' all the TB he had collected. He went from a gamer to a true thief, yet I didn't see anything being done by the "Cap'ns" to recover the lost goods. They seem to be able to provide real name, numbers & addresses for people who email them, yet they don't seem to be doing this for 'one of their own'. That settled the matter for me. What could have been a good interesting twist (PROPERLY executed) has gone into the crapper by the very people who advocated that twist.

---------------------

Don't hurt me. I'm new here.

3k · September 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
In response to some of the latest posts, I'd like to just say "so what?". But I can't...

...because you're so open-minded?

September 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
Assuming your cache was pirated according to the rules, you don't have to do anything other than re-enable it...

Oh, so the pirates have rules?? Um...so do we.

What if someone doesn't play by the pirate rules? Would they be banned from the pirate site?

September 24, 2003

The pirates' self-justification reminds me of the guys who create computer viuses and then tell the world this is to show the vulnerabilities of the system. Course, a bunch of people have screwed-up computers, but it's worth it, right?

22k · September 24, 2003

My company is making all of us take an ethics course today (the lousy bums) and here is a couple of somewhat "appropriate" burbs.

"It's all for a good cause" is a seductive rationale to apply loose interpretations to various unethical acts, including deception, concealment, conflicts of interest, favoritism, and violations of established rules and procedures

We too often rationalize our behavor in order to convince ourselves that our choices are acceptable, even then they are morally syspect. Being able to recognize and avoid the rationalizations that remove our sense of responsibility for our conduct are key in both knowing the right thing to do and doing it.

--------------

Seems to me this is requiring a lot of justification to make people agree that this is perfectly acceptable behavior.

'bout time to call this a duck.

[This message was edited by TeamX40 on September 24, 2003 at 09:31 AM.]

September 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:
It is amazing to me that anyone (ju66l3r) who owns zero caches should think his opinion on this matter has any value whatsoever.

Sorry after that statement all I heard was blah blah blah.

I too own zero caches, so in your eyes both myself and all the other hundereds of cachers who do not own a cache have no value or anything to add to the game. Great

"...clear as mud?"

Xitron, if you will put a little more effort into reading comprehension, you would know that I never implied that cachers who do not own a cache have no value. I am speaking specifically to the issue of stolen caches. If you don't own one (a good one that took some effort to create, and is enjoyed as it is), how can you suggest that those who do should just sit back and enjoy the attack on their cache? Hmmm...kinda sounds like what some folks used to tell rape victims....

Everyone has a right to their opinion. But that doesn't mean all opinions have value. If you form your opinion with limited experience in the matter, it's value is suspect. That is true for all aspects of life. And - for the record - it applies to me sometimes as well.

"...clear as mud?"

September 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
...4) Starship: Finally, it's amazing to me that you think your opinion has any value whatsoever, especially after you disqualify yourself by making such a base statement about the other people in this sport (the finders). It is not about disrespecting me for my creativity (if they were to pirate a cache of mine) but that it would be about evolving and adding to a game that I've found to be enjoyable in its old and new form...

ju, you need a course in reading comprehension too. You forget that I too am a "cache finder". The only people I targeted in that statement were those who have never placed a good cache, yet have plenty to say about what those who have should find acceptable. I'm no "cache king". I have only three. I'm just like all the other "finders" except, I took the time to see the sport from the other side as well.

quote:
...Ultimately, this will probably my final serious response to those that would disparage rather than attempt to develop or incorporate this new diversion into the game. I even used an appropriate topic title ("in case you were still open-minded") because I didn't want to preach to the zealots (and I didn't want them trying to preach to me)...

Yeah...how's it feel to have people take what you started and turn it into something you don't like, without so much as asking?

quote:
...Unless you're willing to work on a solution that enables enjoyable pirating (such as pre-warning a cache hider of an upcoming pirating), then I wasn't looking to discuss the topic with you anyways, since you're not looking to change your mind and I'm only willing to change mine to better fit this into the game, not to dissolve and destroy it...

There is no solution to work on. If you want your cache pirated, post that fact on the cache page. I'm sure someone will oblige. If the pirates were truly looking to improve the game, they would ASK - not "pre-warn" the cache owner. It's as simple as that. Just because you think a concept is too complicated for some to see the answer, doesn't mean it ain't there. This is no nebulous concept. There is a right and a wrong.

If pirate caching is such great fun for everyone, then there should be no fear in doing it by invitation or permission, and without anonymity. Done any other way, it is malicious at worst and just plain anti-social, at best. Someone else's failure to see that does not make me stubborn, inflexible, shortsighted, or anything else. Step away from the fuzzy logic for awhile and see the light.

"...clear as mud?"

September 24, 2003

As someone who enjoys creating variants on this game (Finders Keepers, Scavenger Hunt, Fox Hunt) I've been trying to decide how the pirates went wrong in what COULD have been an interesting variant on geocaching. And the best I can figure out is that you guys broke trust. We have certain expectations when we set and seek caches and the pirates messed with that too much. We weren't expecting it and when we said we didn't like it, the pirates didn't respect that: they just directed us to their rules to show us it was really okay.

Well, it wasn't okay. And the pirates haven't done much to repair the broken trust as far as I can tell.

In order for this to have worked I think there needed to be some announcement that the pirates were coming to our area and give people a chance to decide if they wanted to participate or not.

But that seems like it wouldn't have been fun for the pirates. Which makes me wonder what their real motivation is...

quote:
It's ironical for someone to comment on the actions of others when he, himself, has setup the architecture for these misguided intentions to spawn these pirate games.

Could it be that all this is a personal vendetta against Jeremy? I suspect so. In which case, you've alienated any moderate people who may have agreed with your arguments against gc.com and brought together folks who normally wouldn't agree with each other.

GC.com may lose some people to that N site but it's hardly going to weaken them.

The Pirates have done little except ruin another "variant" on the game and made themselves unwelcome, to boot.

Oh, and next time you want to "punish" Jeremy leave the rest of us out of it.

Ode to a Pigeon: Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, You Lookin' at Me? YOU LOOKIN' AT ME?! (b. katt, 7/14/03)

In case you were still open-minded

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