Snake Bite Liability

[+SPSF700]

A small child was nearly bitten by a rattlesnake while finding one of my caches.  Had she been bitten, am I prsonally liable?  Cache is located next to a public road.

 

SPS Fan

[+colleda]

Did you place the snake there?

[+Max and 99]

25 minutes ago, SP&S Fan said:

A small child was nearly bitten by a rattlesnake while finding one of my caches.  Had she been bitten, am I prsonally liable?  Cache is located next to a public road.

 

SPS Fan

Jeesh! These liability stories make me uneasy.

I think the adult taking the child geocaching is responsible for both of their safety!  Same thing would apply to scorpions under a log, black widow spiders, and wasps. Geocaching is an outdoor activity with inherent risks. 

[+MNTA]

Or getting hit by a car/bus

[joesdolphins]

5 hours ago, SP&S Fan said:

A small child was nearly bitten by a rattlesnake while finding one of my caches.  Had she been bitten, am I prsonally liable?  Cache is located next to a public road.

 

SPS Fan

Absolutely not. It’s your cache not your pet snake. She could have fallen off a cliff it’s the finders responsiblity to be safe.

[joesdolphins]

It’s your cache not your snake. 

[+hzoi]

When asking for free legal advice, one gets what one pays for.

 

In theory, likely not.  That wouldn't bar someone from attempting to sue you, it would just make the odds of their success low.

[+lee737]

7 hours ago, colleda said:

Did you place the snake there?

Gold mate!

 

[+lee737]

I wouldn't stress..... I wonder how many times we've 'nearly' been bitten by snakes that we 'almost' saw?

[+arisoft]

9 hours ago, SP&S Fan said:

Had she been bitten, am I prsonally liable?

 

Maybe not by law, but I see that you could be at least mentally responsible if something happens due to your acts.

 

It is best to add a warning in the cache description if there is a heightened risk of snakes what occasional geocacher cannot take account.

[+cerberus1]

Odd, I couldn't find a cache owned by you on your profile.  Looks like that ampersand problem here that still isn't fixed...

 

Wanted to see if you had attributes listed for all possibilities.  We cover bases with attributes that we've yet to experience, simply as a JIC. 

If a  snake ever became your problem,  it would probably be by the same people  saying you gave them poison ivy.

 

 

[+kunarion]

11 hours ago, SP&S Fan said:

A small child was nearly bitten by a rattlesnake while finding one of my caches.  Had she been bitten, am I prsonally liable?  Cache is located next to a public road.

 

What is the rattlesnake situation at that cache? Are snake encounters likely? What are finders tending to do, to reach the container?

 

If there are large flat rocks or a lot of logs, especially if those are the convenient nooks for cache placement, if it is a snake habitat, it is time to consider changes. Even adding a better hint may help, if, say, people tend to poke around in the rocks, and the container is not even hidden there. It's less a liability thing, more a rattlesnake thing.

 

And it's not because a snake will go out of its way to harm people, but because people will try to harm the snake. Someone sees a snake, and what they do next creates the situation where they get bit.

[+J Grouchy]

13 hours ago, SP&S Fan said:

A small child was nearly bitten by a rattlesnake while finding one of my caches.  Had she been bitten, am I prsonally liable?  Cache is located next to a public road.

 

SPS Fan

 

 

That's precisely what stuff like this is for:  

 

But yeah...not on you unless you have a trained attack snake.

[+SPSF700]

GC75K2Y    - Ruby         Cache in question and attached finder's log.

 

Suggestions for additional warnings welcomed - thanks for all the great comments so far

[+cerberus1]

Looks fine to me.    Attributes in place, TD for shooing that critter away, and all good to go now. 

Both finders have 2T as their max, so probably just lucky they never had that happen yet.

This is an outdoors hobby, and I think your logs were a lot better than mine might have been. 

[+Jayeffel]

16 hours ago, SP&S Fan said:

am I prsonally liable

Very good question, I would think yes ONLY if you placed it in an area known to harbor them.  You can as others mention list attributes and description stating the possibility of them, you are not responsible for others action if all reasonable care is taken. Would I want to find a cache there? Maybe I better had not place one there then.

[+cerberus1]

2 minutes ago, Jayeffel said:

Very good question, I would think yes ONLY if you placed it in an area known to harbor them.  You can as others mention list attributes and description stating the possibility of them, you are not responsible for others action if all reasonable care is taken. Would I want to find a cache there? Maybe I better had not place one there then.

 

That would cover the majority of the game lands and state parks in your state. 

It's Summer and there's rocks.  Common sense says be careful outdoors (isn't there a thread on that?) .

How could anyone possibly know that a snake is never going to be there? 

If I place a cache and don't bump into one,  how would I know that a snake's not there?

[+Bear and Ragged]

Covered by the "Disclaimer" on all the cache pages?

 

Quote

 

Please note Use of geocaching.com services is subject to the terms and conditions in our disclaimer.

Geocaching.com Disclaimer

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

Geocaching.com is owned and operated by Groundspeak Inc. Information in the Geocaching.com database is updated regularly. Neither Groundspeak Inc., nor any agent, officer, employee of Groundspeak Inc. or any geocaching community volunteer warrants the accuracy, reliability, or timeliness of any information and shall not be liable for any losses caused by such reliance on the accuracy, reliability, or timeliness of such information. While every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this information, portions may be incorrect or not current. Any person or entity that relies on information obtained from Geocaching.com does so at his or her own risk.

Geocaching, hiking, backpacking and other outdoor activities involve risk to both persons and property. There are many variables including, but not limited to, weather, fitness level, terrain features and outdoor experience, that must be considered prior to seeking or placing a Cache. Be prepared for your journey and be sure to check the current weather and conditions before heading outdoors. Always exercise common sense and caution.

In no way shall Groundspeak Inc. nor any agent, officer, employee of Groundspeak Inc. or any geocaching community volunteer, be liable for any direct, indirect, punitive, or consequential damages arising out of, or in any way connected with the use of this website or use of the information contained within.

 

 

[+SPSF700]

Thanks to all who responded.  I plan on adding the disclaimer and a warning about protecting children and pets from snake issues to all my hides (thank goodness for "cut and paste" - I have over 800 active hides!!)

 

Now if I could just figure out a way to protect pill bottle hides from grass fires!!

[+Max and 99]

10 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

Odd, I couldn't find a cache owned by you on your profile.  Looks like that ampersand problem here that still isn't fixed...

 

Wanted to see if you had attributes listed for all possibilities.  We cover bases with attributes that we've yet to experience, simply as a JIC. 

If a  snake ever became your problem,  it would probably be by the same people  saying you gave them poison ivy.

 

 

SP&S must have more than one account.

[+barefootjeff]

5 hours ago, Jayeffel said:

Very good question, I would think yes ONLY if you placed it in an area known to harbor them.  You can as others mention list attributes and description stating the possibility of them, you are not responsible for others action if all reasonable care is taken. Would I want to find a cache there? Maybe I better had not place one there then.

 

That's fine, but the latest iteration of the official app has both the description and attributes mostly hidden and they have to be specifically opened to see them. There doesn't seem to be any way now for a CO to warn app users of hazards near the cache in a way that will be immediately visible when the seeker opens the cache, except perhaps in the cache title.

[+Team Christiansen]

40 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

SP&S must have more than one account.

Don't click on the forums avatar, which strangely will take you to SP's account (somebody else), but click here instead.

[+Max and 99]

8 minutes ago, Team Christiansen said:

Don't click on the forums avatar, which strangely will take you to SP's account (somebody else), but click here instead.

Ohhhhhhhh. I see!    Sorry about that, Chief!

 

But the numbers still don't match, so maybe I'm not wrong after all?

Edited July 24, 2018 by Max and 99

[+cerberus1]

37 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Ohhhhhhhh. I see!    Sorry about that, Chief!

But the numbers still don't match, so maybe I'm not wrong after all?

 

It's an issue that's been in the forums at least since that mary hyde promotion. 

Ampersands, spaces, a few things send you to someone' else's account when clicking on their name here.

[+Max and 99]

3 hours ago, SP&S Fan said:

Thanks to all who responded.  I plan on adding the disclaimer and a warning about protecting children and pets from snake issues to all my hides (thank goodness for "cut and paste" - I have over 800 active hides!!)

But am I right? More than one account? Even though SP isn't one of them?

[+SPSF700]

Sorry about that - try rcbpasco.  Since I own so many caches, I am moving some of them to another account.  I transferred the cache in question today.

[+SPSF700]

Proposed snake warning for my cache pages - please critique 

 

 

 

WARM WEATHER RATTLESNAKE WARNING:

Although rattlesnake encounters are rare, they have been sighted. In over 90,000 logs I have received, there have been fewer than 10 encounters with snakes mention in the logs. However, please protect children and/or pets while geocaching. LOOK before reaching under rocks, in sage or in tall grass, especially near water. If it does not feel safe, skip the hide and move on to another one.

Please note Use of geocaching.com services is subject to the terms and conditions in our disclaimer.

Geocaching.com Disclaimer Quote:

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache. Geocaching, hiking, backpacking and other outdoor activities involve risk to both persons and property. There are many variables including, but not limited to, weather, fitness level, terrain features and outdoor experience, that must be considered prior to seeking a Cache.

[+Max and 99]

7 minutes ago, SP&S Fan said:

Proposed snake warning for my cache pages - please critique 

 

 

 

WARM WEATHER RATTLESNAKE WARNING:

Although rattlesnake encounters are rare, they have been sighted. In over 90,000 logs I have received, there have been fewer than 10 encounters with snakes mention in the logs. However, please protect children and/or pets while geocaching. LOOK before reaching under rocks, in sage or in tall grass, especially near water. If it does not feel safe, skip the hide and move on to another one.

Please note Use of geocaching.com services is subject to the terms and conditions in our disclaimer.

Geocaching.com Disclaimer Quote:

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache. Geocaching, hiking, backpacking and other outdoor activities involve risk to both persons and property. There are many variables including, but not limited to, weather, fitness level, terrain features and outdoor experience, that must be considered prior to seeking a Cache.

That goes above and beyond!

[+cerberus1]

I think it's a shame that it's come to that.  Coddle folks because they have no common sense...

Had a big rant about recreational use and cache logs , but finally gave up, bro. 

I think it's a bit much for a 2/2, but it's your cache and you're the one that needs to be okay with it.

  - But spiders, PI or bees could be next. 

 

[gpsblake]

Not a lawyer, only a qualified lawyer really can answer your answer. But I'll give an opinion. 

 

I would say no because you were not negligent unless you owned the snake, or had knowledge that a snake den was active,  or if you knew the property owner owned the snake. Now, if she were bitten by a dog owned or controlled by the owner of the property, then perhaps you could face a lawsuit because of negligence if you had the knowledge of a dog.

 

Suggestion. email legal@Groundspeak.com and ask their opinion, they maintain a full time lawyer on staff.   They might be able to give you a legal opinion

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by gpsblake
additional info

[+Jayeffel]

7 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

an area known to harbor them

I did not write what I meant exactly, I was not intending to say an area in general, but a specific spot that the Co knew had such snakes; not a wise choice then.  

[+J Grouchy]

15 hours ago, Jayeffel said:

Very good question, I would think yes ONLY if you placed it in an area known to harbor them.  You can as others mention list attributes and description stating the possibility of them, you are not responsible for others action if all reasonable care is taken. Would I want to find a cache there? Maybe I better had not place one there then.

 

Nonsense.

There's one near me that is even named after the danger (there are signs posted in the area warning of rattlesnakes).  

 

[+kunarion]

2 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

There's one near me that is even named after the danger (there are signs posted in the area warning of rattlesnakes).  

 

 

The one where the cache is among the trees behind the canebrake warning sign?  I thought of that exact one, when I read this thread!

 

One very important thing about warnings is not so much that we're in imminent danger, but that we are to refrain from messing with the wildlife (it's the snakes that are in danger).  The sign is all about safety, but mainly that we let snakes be.

 

Where the snakes are prevalent, don't place a cache container inside a hidey-hole that snakes may use.  Otherwise, leave the snakes alone, and they leave you alone.  The cacher in the OP's story did the right thing, create distance from the snake.  And not every snake is a rattlesnake, although it's a great idea to leave snakes alone anyway.

[+hzoi]

9 hours ago, gpsblake said:

Suggestion. email legal@Groundspeak.com and ask their opinion, they maintain a full time lawyer on staff.   They might be able to give you a legal opinion

 

No guarantee.  When lawyers represent an organization, they generally do not give legal advice to those outside the organization, as it's a potential conflict of interest -- when you have only one paying client, everyone else is a potential adverse party.

[BlueRajah]

Plus every state has different laws that would deal with liability. 

[belangora]

On 7/24/2018 at 7:46 AM, cerberus1 said:

I think it's a shame that it's come to that.  Coddle folks because they have no common sense...

Had a big rant about recreational use and cache logs , but finally gave up, bro. 

I think it's a bit much for a 2/2, but it's your cache and you're the one that needs to be okay with it.

  - But spiders, PI or bees could be next. 

 

Your microwave manual probably has a warning somewhere not to attempt to dry one’s pets in it... People are not used to exercising common sense anymore.  

 

Glad no one got hurt. The CO has gone above and beyond to ensure people are aware of potential dangers. 

[+Elektrazz]

On 7/23/2018 at 5:32 PM, Bear and Ragged said:

Covered by the "Disclaimer" on all the cache pages?

 

 

Best answer by far!  

[+hukilaulau]

OK. is it time for favorite disclaimer stories yet? here's mine:

A man took the handle off his lawnmower and tried to use it as a hedge trimmer. He dropped it and cut off his foot.

He sued the company because there was no warning against taking off the handle and using it as a hedge trimmer!

(One of the reasons mowers now have automatic shutoffs. It wasn't always that way)

 

And as anyone living in a sunshine state knows: those windshield shades all have some variation of this warning: "Don't use while operating vehicle."

[+captnemo]

I put the following on my hides:

 

Caution!! As with any desert Cache, NEVER put your hands in or under any rocks or containers that you can't see fully. Always turn over rocks with a stick before picking them up. Things that like to bit and sting love to hide and wait just for you! .

 

I did find a baby rattle snake under one of my caches, so I moved it.

[+NanCycle]

23 minutes ago, captnemo said:

I did find a baby rattle snake under one of my caches, so I moved it.

 

The snake or the cache? 

[+captnemo]

On 11/22/2018 at 5:09 PM, NanCycle said:

 

The snake or the cache? 

Both! The snake very carefully

[+wmpastor]

The broader question is cache placement in general.  The finder takes risks that the CO is not responsible for, because walking in the city or the forest has risks.  Put the snake warning in the cache listing, now that the risk is known.

 

The greatest risk of liability would be if a CO intentionally created a hidden risk, almost a booby-trap.  That's an extreme and bizarre scenario, likely to be disallowed or archived immediately.

 

The CO can rest easy here because the risk of snake bite is out of the CO's control, and is a normal risk of being outdoors in that area.

[+Mudfrog]

On ‎7‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 9:12 AM, arisoft said:

 

Maybe not by law, but I see that you could be at least mentally responsible if something happens due to your acts.

 

It is best to add a warning in the cache description if there is a heightened risk of snakes what occasional geocacher cannot take account.

 

This is the way I see it. Depending on the cache, especially those set in woodsie areas,  I usually add a warning that finders watch for critters that might bite, sting, or scare the bajeebies out of them. Even with the warning, I'd still feel bad if someone got snake bit but I believe I could live with myself if it happened out in the wild where these things are more expected. 

 

This is a little different but is something that got me to thinking a while back..  Myself, I love tree climbing, scuba, and other challenging cache types. I would never dream of blaming someone if something went wrong attempting one of these caches. But knowing that bad things can happen, especially with people not thinking things out, I've been reluctant to hide anything too difficult. I did hide one cache about 35 feet up in a tree that had few branches a while back. It was difficult and not for the faint of heart so only a few people actually made the climb. I really liked the cache placement but I decided to take it down after about a year because I hated the thought that someone could get hurt, or worse, doing it.