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Seawind

Corrected Coordinates of Owned Caches / Message Alerts

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I attempted to correct the coordinates for a puzzle cache that I own (enter corrected coordinates), but the pen icon for editing does not appear.  It does appear for anyone else's caches that I view.  But not for any of mine.  I have always used this feature to enter the final location for my puzzle caches.  What gives??

 

Secondly, for well over a week, I have not received an alert email when someone Messages me.  That has always worked well in the past, but is not working at all now.  I discovered about 10 unseen messages that never generated alerts.  I sure hope that feature hasn't gone away!  Any suggestions?  (I am still receiving alerts when my caches are logged)

 

Many Thanks!

Seawind

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14 minutes ago, Seawind said:

I attempted to correct the coordinates for a puzzle cache that I own (enter corrected coordinates), but the pen icon for editing does not appear.  It does appear for anyone else's caches that I view.  But not for any of mine.  I have always used this feature to enter the final location for my puzzle caches.  What gives??


Today I also discovered that I no longer can edit the coordinates of my own caches and now searched the forums for any information regarding this topic. I also need this feature for my caches and wonder why it was removed (maybe unintended?)?

Unfortunately I've already entered the final coordinates for a cache weeks ago, and now I need to change them because the final location changed.

It would be helpful to get any information.

Greetings, fraggle

Edited by fraggle_[DE]

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The removal of corrected coordinates on owned caches is indeed intentional (although I wasn't aware that the change had been made live already). The problem was that a lot of new cache owners mistakenly thought that that was the way to publicly change the coordinates on caches where they had been reported as off.

 

Owners should record the true locations of their caches as additional waypoints. 

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Thanks for the info, unwelcome though it is!  So on my hundreds of owned puzzle caches, I now have coordinates that can't be changed, even if the final is moved, it appears.  A method for correcting the coordinates other than the confusing way is very much needed!

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6 minutes ago, Seawind said:

Thanks for the info, unwelcome though it is!  So on my hundreds of owned puzzle caches, I now have coordinates that can't be changed, even if the final is moved, it appears.  A method for correcting the coordinates other than the confusing way is very much needed!

What Moun10Bike is trying to tell you is if you need to change the coordinates for the final location, you need to go to Admin Tools 'Edit',  'Add/Edit Waypoints'.  Click on the pencil for 'edit'.  That should bring you to the point where you can edit the final location.   Edit, and 'update waypoint'.

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I think (hope) there's some miscommunication here.

 

Yes, the pen icon beside the coordinates on the cache page does not appear when you're looking at a cache that you own. That would only change the coordinates for you.

 

No, you're not being prevented from changing the coordinates on your own caches. The 'Update Coordinates' log type is still present on both the current and the new logging page. And it still seems to allow you to change the posted coordinates. That changes them for everyone. I'm talking already published caches here, of course. I'm assuming that the posted coordinates on unpublished caches can still be changed via the Edit Waypoints method. And I think (I haven't checked this) that on unpublished caches, you can still just edit the posted coordinates by editing the cache page?

 

If there's a change coming that means that posted coordinates cannot be changed ever, at all, then I think there's going to be considerable complaining. But I think (hope) that's not what's happening.

Edited by van der Decken

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Thanks for the replies.  My normal procedure, for years, for my owned puzzle caches, is to click on the pen icon next to the POSTED coordinates and enter the FINAL coordinates.  Then, when the cache pulls into GSAK and my GPS receiver, I can easily navigate to the final for maintenance.

 

Today, I moved a puzzle cache final and used the usual method for updating the FINAL waypoint - no problem.  But, the cache listing still points to the old final location (the old corrected coordinates) that I originally corrected, which is useless.  No way to edit that that I can see.  In fact, the original, POSTED coordinates can't even be viewed any more, as they could using the pen icon.

 

I know there are other ways of maintaining final coordinates in GSAK, but this is the method that I have become accustomed to, and changing all my listings would be a big job.

 

I hope that clarifies the problem, and thanks again!

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6 hours ago, Seawind said:

Thanks for the replies.  My normal procedure, for years, for my owned puzzle caches, is to click on the pen icon next to the POSTED coordinates and enter the FINAL coordinates.  Then, when the cache pulls into GSAK and my GPS receiver, I can easily navigate to the final for maintenance.

 

Today, I moved a puzzle cache final and used the usual method for updating the FINAL waypoint - no problem.  But, the cache listing still points to the old final location (the old corrected coordinates) that I originally corrected, which is useless.  No way to edit that that I can see.  In fact, the original, POSTED coordinates can't even be viewed any more, as they could using the pen icon.

 

That describes exactly the same procedure I use for my mystery caches. I do not change the coordinates for others, but for myself for easier mainentance.

 

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I understand the reasoning behind this change. It is true, that for beginners, it is quite hard to find a way to change listed coordinates. Removing this intuitive "solution" does not solve the original problem. Wrong coordinates still apply to the cache.

I am sure that there is more intelligent solution available than totally removing the widely used function just because it is too complicated to some entry level users. Maybe the system should ask, what the cache owner is going to do and forward to the right tool if necessary.

Edited by arisoft

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The use of corrected coordinates by the owner of a cache is not widely used, though. This was determined before this change was made. In fact, only about 70k caches in the entire database are in this state.

 

I understand that this is inconvenient for those who are using this method. In the end, however, it is a bit like using a screwdriver to pound a nail - it is not the right tool for the job. It is best to store these locations as hidden additional waypoints. 

 

I'm currently on vacation, but when I return I will mention to the team that it appears that caches that owners have used this method on are now frozen in that location due to the inability to access the pencil icon anymore.  That needs to be addressed.

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5 minutes ago, Moun10Bike said:

The use of corrected coordinates by the owner of a cache is not widely used, though. This was determined before this change was made. In fact, only about 70k caches in the entire database are in this state.

I see - quite small amount. And how many of these were traditional caches? (Indication for misuse addresssed by this feature)

 

7 minutes ago, Moun10Bike said:

I understand that this is inconvenient for those who are using this method. In the end, however, it is a bit like using a screwdriver to pound a nail - it is not the right tool for the job. It is best to store these locations as hidden additional waypoints.

I have used this method about a year ago but then the API changed somehow and corrected coordinates are not working any more on my mobile device. For this reason I am not the one who will suffer for this change when maintaining my mystery caches.

But when I try to find a place for a new cache, I will have hard times if my caches are not positioned at the right place. Practically this function got broken few days ago, when found caches moved back to the bogus so no big deal at all. Everything is just a mess now.

 

7 minutes ago, Moun10Bike said:

I'm currently on vacation, but when I return I will mention to the team that it appears that caches that owners have used this method on are now frozen in that location due to the inability to access the pencil icon anymore.  That needs to be addressed.

Before you restore them back to the listed coordinates, I hope that you would try to find some other way to this user interface problem. For example limiting this feature only to traditional caches.

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8 hours ago, arisoft said:
9 hours ago, Moun10Bike said:

The use of corrected coordinates by the owner of a cache is not widely used, though. This was determined before this change was made. In fact, only about 70k caches in the entire database are in this state.

I see - quite small amount. And how many of these were traditional caches? (Indication for misuse addresssed by this feature)

There are less than 560k mystery/multi/Wherigo caches in the entire database, so 70k would be around 12.5% of caches. This is a small percentage of all mystery/multi/Wherigo caches, but I suspect the percentage would be higher for CO's with numerous such caches.  Cachers with only a few mystery/multi/Wherigo caches can more easily remember the exact location of those hides, so they didn't find a need for the corrected coordinates feature.  Cachers with numerous myster/multi/Wherigo caches, like the OP, would be more likely to find the corrected coord feature a useful tool.

 

8 hours ago, arisoft said:

Before you restore them back to the listed coordinates, I hope that you would try to find some other way to this user interface problem. For example limiting this feature only to traditional caches.

I agree that limiting the restriction to traditional caches could be a good compromise.  The new owners that need to correct their coords because finders report they're off usually start their 'CO careers' with traditional caches. By the time they are hiding mystery/multi/Wherigo caches, they should be familiar enough with the Admin page to know how to update coords correctly.

For example, when a finder includes corrected coords in their find logs (which is only possible with the 'old' logging page) then perhaps a link to the correct Help Center article could be displayed next to those coords in the online log. Or maybe if a finder includes corrected coords, then the CO automatically receives an email from GS advising them how to address the issue. Of course, it's a bit of a moot point since the ability to include suggested coords was removed in the new logging page.

---------------------

To assist newbie cachers, perhaps the emphasis should be on expanding and refining the Help Center so that newbies are better able to find answers to their questions. Perhaps there should be more efforts to teach and instruct new cachers, rather than removing or restricting functionality for all cachers. Those newbies, once they move beyond 'newbie' status, might have found that functionality to be quite useful.

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I use this feature all the time for my mystery caches and adding a waypoint would not help at all as I need them to show in position that the cache is placed for maintenance and distance when setting new caches. It makes no sence that we can see other people caches in solved position but not our own. 

 

The low percentage which is quoted is probably because many are traditional caches which do not need editing - I would be interested in the percentage of mystery only caches that are edited by CO. 

There must be another way to warn new cachers (a message pop up) rather than removing this valuable feature for COs

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Bring back the pencil! This is a really useful feature, especially to those who like to set puzzle caches and want to update our own page with the corrected co-ords.

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What GeoJaxx and Boomshanka said. This is a terrible retrograde step. I have over 300 puzzle caches, all of which have corrected coordinates on the page. This allows for easier maintenance to my caches when needed. Please change it back!!

Edited by MrCryptic
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15 hours ago, Moun10Bike said:

 

The use of corrected coordinates by the owner of a cache is not widely used, though. This was determined before this change was made. In fact, only about 70k caches in the entire database are in this state.

 

If the assessment above is correct that this equates to ~ %12.5 of placed Multi/Unknown/Wherigos is correct then it may not be widely used but it's certainly not an insignificant number that should be dismissed out of hand.

 

 

15 hours ago, Moun10Bike said:

I understand that this is inconvenient for those who are using this method. In the end, however, it is a bit like using a screwdriver to pound a nail - it is not the right tool for the job. It is best to store these locations as hidden additional waypoints. 

Yes it is the right tool for the job, we want to be able to see our placed caches on the map in their final location for any number of reasons and it's completely bizarre to think that as the CO I'm the only one who won't be able to see where my caches are on the map!.

 

Taking your handyman analogy, I would say that disabling this feature for all COs simply because a few new COs don't understand how to use the tools at their disposal is indeed using a screwdriver to pound a nail - you should be addressing the fundamental problem and educating those new COs, either by better labelling, popups or whatever.

 

I don't remember seeing anything about this in the release notes, was it included somewhere?

 

Put me down as another one who wants the ability for COs to correct their cache co-ords back.

 

 

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When I download mystery cache and multicaches that I own, using the "GPX" button on the cache page, all of the additional waypoints (including hidden waypoints) are part of the download.  I use those waypoints for navigating to my cache when doing maintenance.  I thought everyone did it like this, so I learned something by reading this thread.  I would not have thought to use the 'corrected coordinates' feature on my own cache, because the waypoints are already available to me.

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26 minutes ago, The Leprechauns said:

I would not have thought to use the 'corrected coordinates' feature on my own cache, because the waypoints are already available to me.

 

But when you look at the geocaching.com map, it doesn't show the waypoints it shows the unknown/multis at their published co-ords. By using the corrected coordinates feature it shows them on the map at their physical location.

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I use the corrected coordinates feature on my caches and I'm very disappointed that this has gone. Of course now, (should I want to) I can't change them back to the original because the pencil is no longer there!

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I certainly use this feature.. why take it the feature away when it could be solved by a simple pop-up to educate less experienced COs? :(

 

As a CO with ~3500 FPs I have quite a few caches in very saturated area and it's really difficult to work out where is still available so I need to adjust the final co-ords on my own puzzles and multis. Being able to adjust my final co-ords on my own caches makes it much easier as adjusted co-ords are in the gpx file where waypoints are in a separate gpx file.

 

More and more of my caches now tend to be puzzles/multis as when GCHQ started offering a month free Premium Membership, this removed the PMO protection for special caches - those with expensive or custom containers, or where extreme stealth is required. Inexperienced cachers often broke/stole/exposed these traditional caches. Now COs have to make them puzzles/multis to skew finders to those with a little more experience.

 

Futhermore, I still don't understand what problem needed to be solved that meant COs were no longer allowed to put NM flags on our own caches. This causes me a right pain and my cache maintenance has gone downhill because of it.

 

I hope that GCHQ look to hire a few more developers who actually play the game (both finding and hiding) so they can understand geocaching a little better...

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I too use corrected coordinates on my puzzle caches.    Mostly so that they show up on the map in their real locations.

 

I also have "additional waypoints".   It won't stop me being able to find my caches and maintain them.   Just a slight backwards step that they don't show their real location on my map.

 

The worst thing for me - I didn't correct all of mine.   And new ones I won't be able to correct.   But the ones I corrected, I can't "uncorrect".   So some of my puzzles show for me at posted coords, some show at correct coords, and I can't do anything to make it consistent.    I can live with this, but it is an annoyance.  

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Please add me to the list of COs who think this is a backward step and need to be able to adjust the co-ords of my own caches. I really do NEED to see where they are on a map and am exceedingly dismayed at having this facility removed.

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Add us to the list too! Yes it's confusing but why remove the option just give us the option and give people who are confused by it the option to contact the reviewer. We aren't all confused by it stop reducing down things to the lowest common denominator!

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1 minute ago, Smokeypugs said:

Add us to the list too! Yes it's confusing but why remove the option just give us the option and give people who are confused by it the option to contact the reviewer. We aren't all confused by it stop reducing down things to the lowest common denominator!

 

As I understand it, the problem is the "confused person" doesn't know they are confused.

I think this is the problem:

 

- Cache owner gets feedback that their coordinates are out, or decides to move the cache.

- This CO wrongly thinks that using "corrected coordinates" will "correct" their coordinates for everyone, and they use that.

- This results in a situation where the CO thinks they fixed their coordinates for everyone, but they haven't.

 

 

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17 hours ago, arisoft said:

Before you restore them back to the listed coordinates, I hope that you would try to find some other way to this user interface problem. For example limiting this feature only to traditional caches.

 

Sounds like this might be the best solution.

 

Allow COs to change final co-ords on their own caches.

Don't allow anyone to change final co-ords on trads.

 

Or of course you could set requirements for new COs... a simple test they understand the features before they can place their first cache... or a minimum number of finds... or both...

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On 22/07/2017 at 11:30 PM, Moun10Bike said:

The removal of corrected coordinates on owned caches is indeed intentional (although I wasn't aware that the change had been made live already). The problem was that a lot of new cache owners mistakenly thought that that was the way to publicly change the coordinates on caches where they had been reported as off.

 

Owners should record the true locations of their caches as additional waypoints. 

Yes there is an option to add a hidden final waypoint (which is done at the time of submitting a cache anyway) but this is really not the same and doesn't give the additional benefits (such as viewing on the map at a glance for multiple owned caches) that corrected coords gives. 

Please reconsider this and change. 

As others have said I'm sure there is a way to educate new CO's.

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As this useful piece of functionality has been disabled for own caches, can you please advise how to display the icons on the map in the corrected/final location rather than the indicative. 

 

Surely it is better to educate people than restrict functionality for everyone and have to make additional changes. A simple popup along the lines of "this will only  change the coords for you viewing, if you wish to correct final coords of your cache for everyone please do x, y, z" 

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18 hours ago, arisoft said:

Before you restore them back to the listed coordinates, I hope that you would try to find some other way to this user interface problem. For example limiting this feature only to traditional caches.

Trads wouldn't use this feature as there is always only one set of co-ords for trads - this would only apply to puzzles, multis, LBHs surely as it is they that would have different final co-ords 

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1 minute ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

Trads wouldn't use this feature as there is always only one set of co-ords for trads - this would only apply to puzzles, multis, LBHs surely as it is they that would have different final co-ords 

 

I think that's the point. Currently, you *can* update the 'corrected coordinates' for trads and some new COs are changing this, thinking they are updating the headline co-ords.

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I used this feature too - I appreciate the finals for all my puzzles and multis are stored in as hidden waypoints - but for maintenance purposes having the ability to alter the main page co-ords meant I could do a PQ of all my caches and go straight to them without the awkwardness.

 

The use of corrected coordinates by the owner of a cache is not widely used, though. This was determined before this change was made. In fact, only about 70k caches in the entire database are in this state

 

h'm 70,000 caches use this feature - OK  so not all cache owners use it but there are 70,000 caches where they have - 70K as a %age of ALL caches is around 2.3% - however as this feature would only be used on Unknown, Multi, LBH and propably Wherigo  (which amount to around 580,000 worldwide) - that takes it up to 12% 

thats not a definition of not widely used 

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As a CO of lots of multis and puzzles I find this feature very useful for maintenance and when placing new caches so I know the proximity. Just because not everybody uses it, it doesn't mean it isn't valued by those who do. 

 

It doesn't harm anyone to have it there -  even a little help thing like that on the personal cache note box, just to explain what the feature does, would benefit the newer cachers who do not understand, while still keeping the feature there for those who use it.

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11 minutes ago, -KROP- said:

 

I think that's the point. Currently, you *can* update the 'corrected coordinates' for trads and some new COs are changing this, thinking they are updating the headline co-ords.

Ah I see that and yes - I would say just do that for the Trads , but leave the others alone :-) 

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20 hours ago, Moun10Bike said:

The use of corrected coordinates by the owner of a cache is not widely used, though. This was determined before this change was made. In fact, only about 70k caches in the entire database are in this state.

 

I understand that this is inconvenient for those who are using this method. In the end, however, it is a bit like using a screwdriver to pound a nail - it is not the right tool for the job. It is best to store these locations as hidden additional waypoints. 

 

I'm currently on vacation, but when I return I will mention to the team that it appears that caches that owners have used this method on are now frozen in that location due to the inability to access the pencil icon anymore.  That needs to be addressed.

 

 

I understand the problem, but this solution* is lazy and creates another problem.

CO need to see real position of their owned caches on the map. 70K is likely to be rapidly growing number, because corrected coords on map is brand new and very welcome feature. More and more CO will use it, because of huge benefit. But you are now taking it away from cache owners. :(

 

* It is very questionable, whether you really solved the original problem, actually. This way, unexperienced owners still remain uneducated, what is the correct way to update coordinates. They just don't see the option. My proposal is to keep the pencil and implement pop-up question for CO -  A. Do you want to update the coords just for yourself? B. Or for everyone? Answer B would take the cache owner to Update Coordinates log. CO will reach his goal and will be educated for future.

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I have used the corrected co-ordinate feature for most of my mystery caches. If we are unable to use this in future at least let us choose to the the hidden FN waypoint on the map.

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Good news, folks. I've spoken to the team and they are planning to revert this change based on your feedback. Look for the change to happen later today. Thanks for letting us know how you felt!

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I use this feature for all of my owned puzzles and multis - it means that it is very easy to navigate to them, as all I need is a PQ of my owned caches.  Having to manually enter the coordinates every time I want to carry out maintenance on any of these caches is a retrograde step - please re-enable this feature. 

EDIT - just read the above post so hopefully problem solved!

Edited by chilihouse

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THANK YOU for the great news, Moun10Bike.  I have looked into quite a variety of ways of remedying this problem for my situation, and none were acceptable.  For many of us it IS the right tool, or at least the tool that is established, familiar and works very well.  

I will watch for the return of the wonderful pencil!  Thanks for listening!

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3 hours ago, Moun10Bike said:

Good news, folks. I've spoken to the team and they are planning to revert this change based on your feedback.

Thank you very much!

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I think what we are seeing here is an issue with using similar words for different functions. I'm sure there would be a different set of push back, but maybe the term "corrected coordinates" might be better served by rephrasing it to "solved coordinates".

 

Or... maybe when you click the pencil icon, the popup window could have a bit of a warning describing what the function is for.

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On 7/23/2017 at 4:32 PM, Moun10Bike said:

The use of corrected coordinates by the owner of a cache is not widely used, though. This was determined before this change was made. In fact, only about 70k caches in the entire database are in this state.

 

I understand that this is inconvenient for those who are using this method. In the end, however, it is a bit like using a screwdriver to pound a nail - it is not the right tool for the job. It is best to store these locations as hidden additional waypoints. 

 

I'm currently on vacation, but when I return I will mention to the team that it appears that caches that owners have used this method on are now frozen in that location due to the inability to access the pencil icon anymore.  That needs to be addressed.

But there is no way to see the hidden additional waypoints in any of the geocaching apps. I use this feature for my own caches on the apps I use to see where the cache actually is so I can check on it, or if I want to place a new cache nearby.

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23 hours ago, Moun10Bike said:

Good news, folks. I've spoken to the team and they are planning to revert this change based on your feedback. Look for the change to happen later today. Thanks for letting us know how you felt!

 

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

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On 7/24/2017 at 0:55 PM, Moun10Bike said:

Good news, folks. I've spoken to the team and they are planning to revert this change based on your feedback. Look for the change to happen later today. Thanks for letting us know how you felt!

Thank you for allowing us to keep this feature. As I said above, I use this a lot

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On 24/07/2017 at 5:55 PM, Moun10Bike said:

Good news, folks. I've spoken to the team and they are planning to revert this change based on your feedback. Look for the change to happen later today. Thanks for letting us know how you felt!

Many thans for reacting so quickly on this issue. Perhaps relabelling the pop up box from "Corrected Coordinates" to "Solved Coordinates" assist inexperienced geocachers.

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