FTF Etiquette when you know the cache owner

[+Darick]

I have been searching the internet for an answer to this, but haven't turned up anything. While there is much out there about FTF etiquette, I have a rather specific question and am looking for opinions.

 

I am visiting my brother in law out of state in a couple of weeks. I recently turned him on to geocaching and he is very enthusiastic about it. He emailed me today and said he plans to place a cache, but he is planning to hide it and then publish it so it will coincide with my visit so I can go after the FTF.

 

We have been caching together before, and I have mentioned him in my logs, so others are likely to know there is a connection between us. If I have no prior knowledge of the cache location, container or placement, is it legitimate for me to seek the FTF? Would you suspect foul play if you were a local FTF Hound? If yes, what if I explain in my log that I had no prior knowledge of the details of the hide... would you still be put off?

 

Not that big of a deal to me either way as far as the FTF goes... just don't want to squelch his enthusiasm by passing on his offer to go after the FTF on his cache. Your thoughts are appreciated.

[+TerraViators]

I don't see anything wrong with it. It's his cache and he can have it publish when and why he wants as long as it passes muster with a reviewer.

[+briansnat]

FTF is a side game only practiced by a small segment of geocachers and there is no "one" etiquette book. If your brother in law wants to publish caches while you are visiting so you have a shot at FTF there is nothing wrong with that. Heck if he wanted to hand you the coordinates before it was published there is nothing wrong with that either. It's his cache and nobody else's business who he gives the coordinates to and when.

Edited July 28, 2011 by briansnat

[+Coldgears]

I have been searching the internet for an answer to this, but haven't turned up anything. While there is much out there about FTF etiquette, I have a rather specific question and am looking for opinions.

 

I am visiting my brother in law out of state in a couple of weeks. I recently turned him on to geocaching and he is very enthusiastic about it. He emailed me today and said he plans to place a cache, but he is planning to hide it and then publish it so it will coincide with my visit so I can go after the FTF.

 

We have been caching together before, and I have mentioned him in my logs, so others are likely to know there is a connection between us. If I have no prior knowledge of the cache location, container or placement, is it legitimate for me to seek the FTF? Would you suspect foul play if you were a local FTF Hound? If yes, what if I explain in my log that I had no prior knowledge of the details of the hide... would you still be put off?

 

Not that big of a deal to me either way as far as the FTF goes... just don't want to squelch his enthusiasm by passing on his offer to go after the FTF on his cache. Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

Yeah, I introduced my friend to geocaching. He recently hid a geocache, and when we were hanging out together he told me exactly where it was hidden. I'd have no trouble going over for the FTF. The cache isn't published yet. Honestly though, I couldn't give two craps about FTF, I think the whole idea is utter absurd. I'm not going to rush over to find the cache, however, if I am in the area anyway, I will have no problem getting the FTF. I don't see the issue here. Go for it, nobody will care, people search for caches for fun, not to be the first.

 

If you are REALLY that worried that somebody cares about getting a FTF, then let them claim it, or call your friend up on hid cell and tell him to put that the FTF was taken in the description.

[+Hemorrhage]

Competition in my area is pretty tough when it comes to FTF's. I know if I rushed out to try for a FTF as soon as it published and found another name on the log from before the cache was published I'd be a little disappointed. Some people take FTF very seriously and probably wouldn't like it if they thought someone had an unfair advantage over them. I know if I gave the coordinates to one of my caches that hadn't published yet to a friend for a FTF there would be some angry cachers where I live. Every area is different and it's a decision you and your brother in law will have to make for yourselves. If I were you I would log the find, but leave the FTF for after the cache gone public.

[+Mom-n-Andy]

If I have no prior knowledge of the cache location, container or placement, is it legitimate for me to seek the FTF? WHY NOT?

 

Would you suspect foul play if you were a local FTF Hound? WHY WOULD YOU CARE IF THEY DID?

 

If yes, what if I explain in my log that I had no prior knowledge of the details of the hide... would you still be put off? NO, I WOULD WONDER WHY YOU FELT THE NEED TO EXPLAIN.

 

Seriously, it's a game. As long as you follow the published rules of the game (i.e. the "guidelines") all else is fair. FTF is a side game played by a minority of the participants and has no bearing on the "main" game. Around my area, FTFs are usually "scored" by people who happen to be off from work and in the neighborhood when a cache is published. Why should that confer any distinction?

[+Darick]

Competition in my area is pretty tough when it comes to FTF's. I know if I rushed out to try for a FTF as soon as it published and found another name on the log from before the cache was published I'd be a little disappointed. Some people take FTF very seriously and probably wouldn't like it if they thought someone had an unfair advantage over them. I know if I gave the coordinates to one of my caches that hadn't published yet to a friend for a FTF there would be some angry cachers where I live. Every area is different and it's a decision you and your brother in law will have to make for yourselves. If I were you I would log the find, but leave the FTF for after the cache gone public.

 

Wow... lots of replies so quickly, thanks all. To clarify... he doesn't plan to give me the coordinates or any fore-knowledge of the hide. He simply wants to delay the submitting for publication until I am there so I can go for the FTF when it pops up.

 

I understand that FTF is not an official part of the game and that there are those that don't care a lick about it. This is certainly, then, an opinion question. I am mostly interested in hearing from people that do enjoy trying for an FTF, and if they would be put off if someone legitimately beat them to a FTF who was a known friend of the cache owner.

 

I enjoy the excitement of the FTF, but rarely go after them... it is competitive here too. I don't move heaven and earth to run out every time a cache is published, but I do have a few where I was in the right place at the right time and not too busy to give it a shot. Thanks again for the quick replies... eager to hear more opinions.

[+Coldgears]

friend for a FTF there would be some angry cachers where I live.

Who gives a dam? If sombody was to do that then I have no sympathy for them. Hoenestly? I'm all for keeping everything cool between oteher cachers. But, if they were do get angry over it then I wouldn't care. They are not the kind of person I think highly of. It's a game, not a sport, it shouldn't be a competetion. I realize that some people turn it into one, I turn a lot of non-competitive things into one. When I "win" I'm a little happy, when I "lose" I get a little saddened but laugh it off. To get angry over losing something that doesn't give you anything material? Pathetic to say the least. Even more so when you consider it was one oppotrunity out of how many daily? 2-3 a day? And you get angry over something that you can do mulipule times a day, and doesn't give you anything? That is so beyond ridiculus. So much so, I'd hide 10 caches, and give the coordinates to my friends, just to see his reaction.

[+briansnat]

I understand that FTF is not an official part of the game and that there are those that don't care a lick about it. This is certainly, then, an opinion question. I am mostly interested in hearing from people that do enjoy trying for an FTF, and if they would be put off if someone legitimately beat them to a FTF who was a known friend of the cache owner.

 

I couldn't imagine anyone having a beef with that. Then again you never know, there are a few oddballs in this sport.

 

...Some people take FTF very seriously and probably wouldn't like it if they thought someone had an unfair advantage over them. I know if I gave the coordinates to one of my caches that hadn't published yet to a friend for a FTF there would be some angry cachers where I live...

 

Not everybody is playing the same game they are, so they are bound to be disappointed from time to time.

It's tough cookies if they get upset.

Edited July 28, 2011 by briansnat

[+Panther&Pine]

Off topic. But ColdGears what is it with the swearing today? You had such a nice post in the dating thread and then gave up on clear communication or something.

 

On topic: That doesn't seem like an unfair advantage. Have fun!

[+Chokecherry]

We have a tiny community of cachers up here. When a cache is put out by someone chances are the FTF will know the person who put it out. But FTF is not a widely participated side game here and it's not unusual for caches to sit for days or weeks without finds until people get around to doing them.

[+DanOCan]

Go for it, nobody will should care, people search for caches for fun, not to be the first.

 

Fixed that for you. Given the number of threads that get started here every week from people who complain that someone cheated them out of a FTF, it is clear that a fair number of people do care.

 

Personally, I think the OP shouldn't worry and go for it. After all, there are no guarantees and since he doesn't live in the area it doesn't really matter all that much what the locals in that area of think of him.

 

I've had FTFs on cache hides done by friends. They were all "legitimate" -- no prior notification, no advance knowledge. I didn't mention it on the cache page when I logged them and no one has ever said anything to me. And, from what I can tell, they don't laugh, point and snicker at me at events either -- unless I show up with my fly down.

[+Coldgears]

I've had FTFs on cache hides done by friends. They were all "legitimate" -- no prior notification, no advance knowledge.

 

I propose a new acronym

FTFWPKOAKOASUTCOFWLOHIWCOOLWTTFOTCOSATSTPLTCWHIWLOGITPTCWLWANCATPWHOWTCBPWTCOTGOAFTCAHLOFTLVOTCBTLODHLGAWTNIALHOBTOOWFMOTCTEBANOTCPTSTIAHDBFTFITDTTMONWTFTCOAEWMGYASOUATAFTFHTWAFS*

 

First To Find Without Prior Knowledge Or Advanced Knowledge Or Accidentally Stumbling Upon The Cache Or Finding While Letterboxing Or Hiding It With Cache Owner Or Living Within Two Thousand Feet Of The Cache Or Shopping At The Store The Parking Lot The Cache Was Hidden In Was Located or Geocaching In The Park The Cache Was Located When A New Cache At The Park Was Hidden Or Watching The Cache Being Place While The Cache Owner Then Going Over And Finding The Cache After He Leaves Or Finding The Letterbox Version Of The Cache Before The Letterbox Owner Decided He Likes Geocaching And Wants To Make It A Letterbox Hybrid Or Being The Only One Within Fifty Miles Of The Cache Tempted Enough By A Note On The Cache Page That Says There Is A Hundred Dollar Bill For The First Idiot To Drive To The Middle Of No Where To Find The Cache Or Anything Else Which May Give You Any Sort Of Unfair Advantage To A First To Find Hunter That Wants A Fair Shot.

 

*May be subject to verification by the CO via no less then 5 calls, 2 meetings in person, and 10 exchanged e-mail to prove that you did nothing at all that gave you an unfair advantage.

 

Compared to a FTF which simply means you are the first one to find the cache. I think the new FTFWPKOAKOASUTCOFWLOHIWCOOLWTTFOTCOSATSTPLTCWHIWLOGITPTCWLWANCATPWHOWTCBPWTCOTGOAFTCAHLOFTLVOTCBTLODHLGAWTNIALHOBTOOWFMOTCTEBANOTCPTSTIAHDBFTFITDTTMONWTFTCOAEWMGYASOUATAFTFHTWAFS* allows for a much greater set of rules. No longer is logging a FTF simply a matter of being the first to find, you must now go through rigorous test.

 

It's the only FAIR way!

[+BrixingtonPaddler]

I have the same trouble with my dad, the first cache I put out he was with me, he didnt signed it mainly because I didnt want him to but he still didnt want to go back there after it was published, he claimed FTF on the site. The first "real" person came along and claimed FTF as well as he was the first to sign.

 

I put a note on there saying the "real" one was first as I thought it was unsporting that my dad claimed by being there when it was put out

 

Since then I havent told him that I have put one out until I get the mail saying its gone live, then its fair game.

[+fizzymagic]

If I have no prior knowledge of the cache location, container or placement, is it legitimate for me to seek the FTF? Would you suspect foul play if you were a local FTF Hound? If yes, what if I explain in my log that I had no prior knowledge of the details of the hide... would you still be put off?

 

Go for it. FTF hounds generally deserve to be "put off," IMO, so anything that annoys them is a plus in my book.

[+kunarion]

Not that big of a deal to me either way as far as the FTF goes... just don't want to squelch his enthusiasm by passing on his offer to go after the FTF on his cache. Your thoughts are appreciated.

Ask if he'll put a line on the cache page like "not even my own brother knows where it's hidden, so it's fair game for anyone to find."

 

I did something similar when I hid a cache near a spot where an archived cache once was. I specified that the previous cache owner was allowed a new Smiley (in case people assumed he had helped hide it). He didn't have FTF, but that would have been fine, too, and the extra text would maybe prevent any hurt feelings, for people who play the FTF side game.

Edited July 28, 2011 by kunarion

[knowschad]

Competition in my area is pretty tough when it comes to FTF's. I know if I rushed out to try for a FTF as soon as it published and found another name on the log from before the cache was published I'd be a little disappointed. Some people take FTF very seriously and probably wouldn't like it if they thought someone had an unfair advantage over them. I know if I gave the coordinates to one of my caches that hadn't published yet to a friend for a FTF there would be some angry cachers where I live. Every area is different and it's a decision you and your brother in law will have to make for yourselves. If I were you I would log the find, but leave the FTF for after the cache gone public.

 

The question was:

If I have no prior knowledge of the cache location, container or placement, is it legitimate for me to seek the FTF? Would you suspect foul play if you were a local FTF Hound?

[+Hemorrhage]

I seem to have misunderstood the question. I thought the OP meant his brother in law was waiting to have the cache published until AFTER he had already found it. That would be unfair in my eyes. If the brother in law is waiting to publish the cache until he is in town, I think that is perfectly fine as it gives the FTF hounds in the area the same chance that he has. It's perfectly fine to log a FTF on a cache owned by a friend or a family member. Many of the cachers where I'm from already know each other. If you allow someone to claim FTF on a cache awaiting publication IN MY AREA it would be frowned upon. Every area is different with their own set of "rules". We like to follow those "rules" to respect our local cachers and friends. If a cache has already been published it is fair game to EVERYONE even if you know the owner. So if it appears online, go for the FTF.

[+TerraViators]

I've had FTFs on cache hides done by friends. They were all "legitimate" -- no prior notification, no advance knowledge.

 

I propose a new acronym

FTFWPKOAKOASUTCOFWLOHIWCOOLWTTFOTCOSATSTPLTCWHIWLOGITPTCWLWANCATPWHOWTCBPWTCOTGOAFTCAHLOFTLVOTCBTLODHLGAWTNIALHOBTOOWFMOTCTEBANOTCPTSTIAHDBFTFITDTTMONWTFTCOAEWMGYASOUATAFTFHTWAFS*

 

First To Find Without Prior Knowledge Or Advanced Knowledge Or Accidentally Stumbling Upon The Cache Or Finding While Letterboxing Or Hiding It With Cache Owner Or Living Within Two Thousand Feet Of The Cache Or Shopping At The Store The Parking Lot The Cache Was Hidden In Was Located or Geocaching In The Park The Cache Was Located When A New Cache At The Park Was Hidden Or Watching The Cache Being Place While The Cache Owner Then Going Over And Finding The Cache After He Leaves Or Finding The Letterbox Version Of The Cache Before The Letterbox Owner Decided He Likes Geocaching And Wants To Make It A Letterbox Hybrid Or Being The Only One Within Fifty Miles Of The Cache Tempted Enough By A Note On The Cache Page That Says There Is A Hundred Dollar Bill For The First Idiot To Drive To The Middle Of No Where To Find The Cache Or Anything Else Which May Give You Any Sort Of Unfair Advantage To A First To Find Hunter That Wants A Fair Shot.

 

*May be subject to verification by the CO via no less then 5 calls, 2 meetings in person, and 10 exchanged e-mail to prove that you did nothing at all that gave you an unfair advantage.

 

Compared to a FTF which simply means you are the first one to find the cache. I think the new FTFWPKOAKOASUTCOFWLOHIWCOOLWTTFOTCOSATSTPLTCWHIWLOGITPTCWLWANCATPWHOWTCBPWTCOTGOAFTCAHLOFTLVOTCBTLODHLGAWTNIALHOBTOOWFMOTCTEBANOTCPTSTIAHDBFTFITDTTMONWTFTCOAEWMGYASOUATAFTFHTWAFS* allows for a much greater set of rules. No longer is logging a FTF simply a matter of being the first to find, you must now go through rigorous test.

 

It's the only FAIR way!

Before long, everybody would be doing it. Then, we'd have Co-FTFWPKOAKOASUTCOFWLOHIWCOOLWTTFOTCOSATSTPLTCWHIWLOGITPTCWLWANCATPWHOWTCBPWTCOTGOAFTCAHLOFTLVOTCBTLODHLGAWTNIALHOBTOOWFMOTCTEBANOTCPTSTIAHDBFTFITDTTMONWTFTCOAEWMGYASOUATAFTFHTWAFS logs.

[+LewisClan77]

I think if you are First, then you are First no matter haw it happens. In my area there are several husband and wife teams with different caching handles. On numerous occasions I have seen the wife get FTF on the husbands caches and vice versa. As a recovering FTF hound, I do not have a problem with it.

[knowschad]

Actually, I think that even if you are just a normal, non-premium member of geocaching.com that you already have a distinct unfair advantage over the ordinary muggle passing by that may stumble upon the cache first. Perhaps nobody should be able to claim FTF until the cache has been muggled at least once. Seems fair to me. Any differing opinions?

[+John in Valley Forge]

I kinda remember a cache hidden as sort of a welcome home to the CO's brother who was returning from Iraq. If I remember it right, the CO mentioned that he hoped his brother would get the FTF and the local hounds stayed away from it.

[+ngrrfan]

He simply wants to delay the submitting for publication until I am there so I can go for the FTF when it pops up.

So what happens if you sit on the couch and don't go after it when it is published?? What's he going to do then?

[+popokiiti]

What happens if you're sitting on the pot when it is published? Seconds can make all the difference!

[+Crow-T-Robot]

My latest cache had almost this exact scenario. About a week prior to having the cache published, I had mentioned to my brother in law that I was working on a new cache and he stated that he thought it would be fun if he could get the FTF. I didn't give him any details on the hide and didn't specify as to when it would be ready. I just told him I had one in the works.

 

I submitted it on Saturday night and when I woke up early Sunday morning, it had been published for two hours already. I texted my BIL the link to the page and wished him luck and he was able to be the FTF. I had no qualms about that at all. Even if I had decided to send him the coordinates prior to publication, I'd have no qualms about it. But, the fun of FTF's is the feeling that you're racing other cachers to find the cache and an unpublished cache doesn't have that same thrill, so I didn't want to deprive him of that.

[+kunarion]

I kinda remember a cache hidden as sort of a welcome home to the CO's brother who was returning from Iraq. If I remember it right, the CO mentioned that he hoped his brother would get the FTF and the local hounds stayed away from it.

Yes, it would be best if any particular cache wishes are mentioned out on the cache page. There was a "Birthday" cache published, which I added to my list one day, but I didn't make it to that one. The Birthday Boy then had FTF and praised all the FTF hounds for leaving it for him. I would have felt like a heel if I'd already done that cache before him. I'm kinda thick, so go ahead and spell things out on the cache page.

Edited July 29, 2011 by kunarion

[+briansnat]

I kinda remember a cache hidden as sort of a welcome home to the CO's brother who was returning from Iraq. If I remember it right, the CO mentioned that he hoped his brother would get the FTF and the local hounds stayed away from it.

Yes, it would be best if any particular cache wishes are mentioned out on the cache page. There was a "Birthday" cache published, which I added to my list one day, but I didn't make it to that one. The Birthday Boy then had FTF and praised all the FTF hounds for leaving it for him. I would have felt like a heel if I'd already done that cache before him. I'm kinda thick, so go ahead and spell things out on the cache page.

 

I'd feel like a heel if I was so into FTFs that I'd want others to hold off so I could get it. Since FTF is supposed to be a competition what possible fun can it be if all the other contestants don't join in?

Edited July 29, 2011 by briansnat

[+Q10]

Would you suspect foul play if you were a local FTF Hound?

 

No. Just go ahead.

[+drain13]

i like the fact that coldgears ackronym goes beyond the page borders... but aside from that as everyone else has stated, nope its not gonna be a big deal if you get the FTF. If its their first hide i wouldnt be surprised if it didnt publish exactly when they expect it to , so that'll make it even more of an adventure.

[+A & J Tooling]

I'd let someone else have it. Appearences are everything you know.

[+power69]

knowing blood is thicker than water, I would just find it at my leisure.[not jump up and rush out]

whos to say the log wasn't pre-signed with the relatives handle[you know it happens]

i only go for ftfs i think i might have a chance at.

[+FraenCache]

Competition in my area is pretty tough when it comes to FTF's. I know if I rushed out to try for a FTF as soon as it published and found another name on the log from before the cache was published I'd be a little disappointed. Some people take FTF very seriously and probably wouldn't like it if they thought someone had an unfair advantage over them. I know if I gave the coordinates to one of my caches that hadn't published yet to a friend for a FTF there would be some angry cachers where I live. Every area is different and it's a decision you and your brother in law will have to make for yourselves. If I were you I would log the find, but leave the FTF for after the cache gone public.

 

OFFTOPIC:

Really? This is so ... SAD ...

 

What about the fact that going out on a search is the important part of it for itself. No matter who´s first. Sounds like people to me, who want the caches by any means, e. g. plowing cross-country on a four wheeler through a National Park just for the goal to be THE FIRST at a dadgum ammo box.

 

C´mon ...

 

For those people, I´d extra give my new coordinates to a few people before posting them online, just as some sort of "cure" for theyr craziness ...

 

ONTOPIC:

 

Just find it, and don´t loose a word about your brother in law. It´s not someone elses business ...

[+JL_HSTRE]

It's a tribute cache published to coincide with your visit - absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[+Sven.]

You're only cheating yourself at the end of the day.

 

If you know it's fair, then it's fair. My brother missed a couple of FTF's knowing full well i had put a video of my unique caches on youtube.

[Clan Riffster]

IN MY AREA it would be frowned upon.

I really must move to Montana. I could have so much fun messing with the locals!

I am not competitive by nature, and I am usually put off by those who are so driven they have to create some form of competition in everything they do, including those activities that are strictly recreational. For the most part, I can just shake my head at their particular silliness, but when that drive is so strong that it approaches entitlement, I consider them fair game.