My "Armchair cacher" and false logs dilemma

June 24, 2011

I'm relatively new to geocaching (less than a year under my geobelt) and I think I've just found what the geocaching community refers to as an "armchair cachers" -- someone who logs finds online that can't be substantiated when looking at the physical log.

This completely perplexed me, because... why? I know it's just a game, but if you're not going to play by the rules, what's the point? And also, I just don't personally get what a fake logger gets out of it? So, I started reading these forums, and I calmed myself down: maybe I'll mention it to one of the CO's I'm a friend of, maybe not, maybe they'll delete the log, maybe not. Live and let live. Cache and let cache? I'm okay with that.

So here's my question for the more veteran geocachers: what do you do when that armchair cacher logs an FTF on a multiple-DNF'd newly posted cache? And the cacher immediately following that person, ostensibly the second to find, arrives to find a crisp blank log? The armchair cacher posts a note about not having a pen. Er... okay. Perplexing.

To top that, the armchair cacher logged FTF on the first hide of (I believe) another armchair cacher. Quite possibly... the same cacher, or at the very least, a friend of. Confused yet?

It's a long story, and I do have evidence for all this. I want to add that I'm not looking to "police" the area or others' geocaches. I guess I'm just curious what, if anything, cachers with far more experience than I, would do?

And also, to be honest, I'm posting to vent a little and maybe find some solace in that. (My muggle friends wouldn't understand. Literally!) It's silly, I know, because this is just a fun hobby, but when I first discovered this, it was such a shock to me that it actually made me a bit Disheartened would be the word for it. Oh, I'll get it over it. And in the end, I should't let my being appalled by such brazen dishonesty affect how much I personally enjoy the game, right? Live and let live. Cache and let cache?

From the thread "Fake smilies":

"What's to stop me from going to random cache's online and logging that I found them even if I didn't?"

"A sense of honor, ethics and truthfulness?"

Well, I'd better get some sleep. I have tomorrow off and there's some caches near the beach I've got on the to do list. Happy summer caching, everyone!

-tvchick.

9.3k · June 24, 2011

Hi TVChick, love the avatar!

You will soon find yourself deluged with answers to your concerns, with many of them directly contradicting others. The responses will run the gamut from "Death to the cheaters!" to "Don't worry, be happy". Then the most vocal of those two factions will belittle each other's opinions, and the thread will devolve until it gets locked.

But there is still hope!

As you sift through the many varied responses, you will eventually come up with a solution that works for you, and your solution, (which may or may not resemble any of the ones suggested here), will be the correct one.

Personally, I lean toward the "Don't worry" side of things, but that's just me.

Good luck and cache on!

June 24, 2011

I have never had any problems with such "Armchair cachers", but if I had the suspicion that one cacher logs all my caches with the explanation "I forgot my pencil", then I would check the logbooks as soon as possible, because I know, that I put a pencil in most of my containers :rolleyes:

But it if it doesn't concern my own caches, I wouldn't do anything.

If someone likes to log caches without finding them - well, that's not my problem.

I could never (and would never want) to compeed with the top cachers of the world / Europe / Austria, so I am not concerned about somebody's logging preferences.

For example, I do not understand it either, when two or more cachers (each with an own GPS) go caching at different locations and log for the same username.

That's cheating in my eyes - but as there is no official competition in our hobby, that's matter of personal attidude and goals as well.

June 24, 2011

I'd demand proof of the find or erase the log. Death to cheaters! :rolleyes:

June 24, 2011

FTF finds a way to prove they were there, hell a dirt x, a bloody fingerprint, or even a torn corner on the log changes the situation in their favor.

10.2k · June 24, 2011

Interesting. Armchair caching usually refers to looking up answers to virtuals from home without going there. Although there was an incident a couple years back where some retired guy would log caches just for driving within a mile of them (and eventually got all his logs deleted), I think what you describe, posting find logs from home for local caches, is extremely rare. Who does this? You think they are kids? I can see Tweens and or Teens possibly doing something like this.

I suppose ultimately nothing you can do but the individual cache owners delete the bogus logs without a signature on their individual caches.

7k · June 24, 2011

My opinion: Fake found logs per se don't affect anyone other than the user posting them, so there's no need to worry about them too much. Fake FTF logs in the other hand do affect other cachers, so no signature = no FTF.

38.2k · June 24, 2011

My opinion: Fake found logs per se don't affect anyone other than the user posting them, so there's no need to worry about them too much. Fake FTF logs in the other hand do affect other cachers, so no signature = no FTF.

Fraudulent logs can and do affect others. When someone logs a find he is essentially telling the community that the cache was there. If it wasn't really it can entice other cachers to search for it, wasting their time and gas. They may even put extra effort into the hunt because "it has to be here, someone found it this morning".

It's not that far fetched. I know one cacher who embarked on a fruitless 50+ mile drive because someone logged a phony found it log on a cache that had been thought missing. From a personal standpoint I once selected a cache to hunt specifically because it had recent finds. I wasted my time and gas hunting a cache that was long gone thanks to the bogus found it logs.

Phony found it logs can also delay needed maintenance. I recall a cache of mine that had several DNFs. I decided to check on it, but just before I did someone logged a bogus find on it. With that I decided that there was no need to make the maint visit. Then I noticed something fishy about the log and decided to check on it anyway. There was a problem with the cache that made it virtually unfindable. Had the bogus log been slightly more believable I would have delayed maintenance and other cachers would have wasted their time and gas hunting it.

Phony found it logs are not harmless fun, they can inconvenience other gecachers and it just ain't nice to intentionally mislead other cachers.

Edited June 24, 2011 by briansnat

19k · June 24, 2011

Don't worry. Be happy.

Somebody had to say it.

(by the way, your 2lablovers cache, which was a multi and is now a traditional? You said that you were looking for a way to change the symbol. You can't. To go from a multi to a traditional requires a new cache listing)

2.1k · June 24, 2011

I find the original post a bit confusing... tvchick, are you talking about someone posting an armchair log on a cache you own? Or on someone else's cache?

If it's on your cache, feel free to delete it. Or ignore it. Whichever makes you the happiest.

If it's on someone else's cache, you have two choices: point it out to the cache owner, or ignore it. Personally, I'd go with "ignore it." I try to avoid getting caught up in Someone Else's Problems.

6.1k · June 24, 2011

So here's my question for the more veteran geocachers: what do you do when that armchair cacher logs an FTF on a multiple-DNF'd newly posted cache? And the cacher immediately following that person, ostensibly the second to find, arrives to find a crisp blank log? The armchair cacher posts a note about not having a pen. Er... okay. Perplexing.

To top that, the armchair cacher logged FTF on the first hide of (I believe) another armchair cacher. Quite possibly... the same cacher, or at the very least, a friend of. Confused yet?

They are using the site to purposely annoy others. Send a message to Brad W (look at the top of the page) and ask him to send them a nice message.

I noticed a hard to find cache recently that was missing a few signatures. The online log of one non-finder gave erroneous info about the area that made the find more difficult. Another was from someone on vacation who wrote that if someone needed a hint, they could e-mail them. I suppose that would make the log seem more legit, but they most likely just asked someone else for a hint so they could pass it along. If someone really forgets their pen then thats fine with me, but to post something completely bogus is just unacceptable. I guess if they dont find it, they ask someone else for a description. Then if they get asked by the CO to describe the container, then they an describe it. :rolleyes:

Edited June 24, 2011 by 4wheelin_fool

1.8k · June 24, 2011

Fake FTF logs in the other hand do affect other cachers

Fraudulent logs can and do affect others. When someone logs a find he is essentially telling the community that the cache was there. If it wasn't really it can entice other cachers to search for it, wasting their time and gas.
...

Phony found it logs can also delay needed maintenance.

These are the two instances where I think fraudulent logs are irritating.

June 24, 2011

Hi, all - thanks so much for the helpful replies and comments, all very non-inflammatory. :grin: For clarification, this cacher (or group?) didn't log on any of my (few) cache hides. It's only been on others' logs. I pieced it together after geofriends of mine went to find a new multi-DNF'd hide that had recently been logged as found, thought they'd be STF and found the blank log. It was a first time hide by a new cacher, and the FTF was logged by another new cacher, who had signed up that same day. <_< A few of us thought this was sort of fishy, and playing Nancy Drew, I buzzed by one of the nearby caches logged on both cachers' finds and sure enough, no signatures for either of them. :blink:

I think you're right, sounds like some teens/tweens or just one person who may have created 3 different accounts. Our theory is that the cacher posted their first hide without actually placing the cache (hopefully unintentionally?) and after all the DNF's, placed it, then created an account to log a FTF to make it more legit. Now, I realize first time hiders screw up all the time, it's an honest mistake, but I was completely flummoxed by the cover-up ruse. That's a lot of effort! :huh:

Thanks for everyone's input on my meandering post. It dawned on me this morning that the reason I might be taking this so personally may be because I recently (and very accidentally) caught someone at my work forging prescriptions for narcotics. Someone we all trusted. I have to talk to the police today, actually.

If anyone interested has been looking through my finds, for the record, I haven't logged the cache that started this all yet. But plan to today. I haven't decided if I'm disturbed or amused by all this. It's Friday, so I'm leaning toward the latter.

I'm caching on!

-tvchick

6.5k · June 24, 2011

I find the original post a bit confusing... tvchick, are you talking about someone posting an armchair log on a cache you own? Or on someone else's cache?

If it's on your cache, feel free to delete it. Or ignore it. Whichever makes you the happiest.

If it's on someone else's cache, you have two choices: point it out to the cache owner, or ignore it. Personally, I'd go with "ignore it." I try to avoid getting caught up in Someone Else's Problems.

+1 Cache owner's, not other cachers, are responsible for policing their own caches.

It's just a game.

Have I missed any?

1k · June 24, 2011

...the armchair cacher logged FTF on the first hide of (I believe) another armchair cacher. Quite possibly... the same cacher, or at the very least, a friend of.

An armchair hide? Hmm, you really do have quite a situation going on here. :huh:

June 24, 2011

Trust me, there's more things more worthy out there to get mad about. so they claimed a FTF and didnt sign the log? no big deal. Who's going to know? I can say I have 50 FTF (I only have one) and who will that affect? no one's going to go back and check. what I'm saying is if you play the FTF game (and there's nothing wrong with that) and you found a empty log after they claimed to find it, go ahead and and claim FTF. in this game, the one that it affects is YOU. If you know your FTF, claim it. remember were really playing a game with no rules how we play, just like the power trails with the droped containers when they cant find one or they split and find every other one and claim a find on all of them. They can play how they want, I'll play how I want, (but I do form a opinion of them).

3.8k · June 24, 2011

On my cache I would delete the log, on a friends cache I would point it out to my friend, on someone elses cache I would just ignore it.

10.2k · June 24, 2011

On my cache I would delete the log, on a friends cache I would point it out to my friend, on someone elses cache I would just ignore it.

This.

June 25, 2011

Trust me, there's more things more worthy out there to get mad about. so they claimed a FTF and didnt sign the log? no big deal. Who's going to know? I can say I have 50 FTF (I only have one) and who will that affect? no one's going to go back and check. what I'm saying is if you play the FTF game (and there's nothing wrong with that) and you found a empty log after they claimed to find it, go ahead and and claim FTF. in this game, the one that it affects is YOU. If you know your FTF, claim it. remember were really playing a game with no rules how we play, just like the power trails with the droped containers when they cant find one or they split and find every other one and claim a find on all of them. They can play how they want, I'll play how I want, (but I do form a opinion of them).

If I see a new cache that already has a FTF before I leave work, I don't bother with it unless I happen to pass by it within a mile or three. If it is still blank, however, I'll swing by. So yes, fake logs do mess with some of us.

June 25, 2011

What WebScouter said, right on the money.

1.8k · June 25, 2011

On my cache I would delete the log, on a friends cache I would point it out to my friend, on someone elses cache I would just ignore it.

This.

What WebScouter said, right on the money.

Yes, yep and yeah.

7.9k · June 25, 2011

On my cache I would delete the log, on a friends cache I would point it out to my friend, on someone elses cache I would just ignore it.

This.

What WebScouter said, right on the money.

Yes, yep and yeah.

Agreed.

Attempting to police the logs on caches you don't own will probably put you in the looney bin.

At the very least, you will not gain favor in the local community.

Let it go...it's not your problem.

5k · June 25, 2011

FTF finds a way to prove they were there, hell a dirt x, a bloody fingerprint, or even a torn corner on the log changes the situation in their favor.

Enough with the blood on the log already. I'm not singling you out, but I have read this at least ten times this week. If someone were to leave biological fluids in my cache, I'd be inclined to delete their online log just to express my displeasure.

IMO, if you want to claim FTF, sign the log with a pen or a pencil. Vandalizing the cache to prove that you found it doesn't make sense.

6.7k · June 25, 2011

duplicate. Haven't had my coffee.

Edited June 25, 2011 by TheAlabamaRambler

6.7k · June 25, 2011

Don't sweat the small stuff. Serisouly. You will enjoy the game a lot more if you don't worry about what other players do or don't do.

Edited June 25, 2011 by TheAlabamaRambler

June 25, 2011

Your the cache owner. But I think if I found evidence of someone not signing it then I would delete the log. Maybe if enough of that happened the "Cacher" would get bored and quit playing or start caching. I found a cache one time and had no pencil. Well I found a rock to use and made the sign. I also notified the owner. I wish if that happened a few times they would ban the cacher. YEs I know yhou can play the game the way you want. But that would mean I could stay at home for 10 days and log enough to be number one in the world. I could log caches from people who don't play anymore. SO i do think there should be some accountability and i think that would go toward the Cache owners. They can look for suspicous crap. I maen honestly does anyone of you who finds caches want these morons in the game with us. I don't want them or need them. They are LOSERS and I would prefer them to play video games, Watch Glee, and eat some potato chips then be involved what is clearly one of the coolest activities.

All the activites mentioned usually involve sitting around. I am not against any of them. Well I don't care for Glee.

6.5k · June 25, 2011

Don't sweat the small stuff. Serisouly. You will enjoy the game a lot more if you don't worry about what other players do or don't do.

No no no-the line is:

don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff!

Sheesh do we have to have Ambient_Skater add 'correct usage of witty repartee' to the official schedule too?

1.8k · June 25, 2011

They are LOSERS and I would prefer them to play video games, Watch Glee, and eat some potato chips

Uh oh. I did all of those things this week - some of them more than once.

1k · June 25, 2011

They are LOSERS and I would prefer them to play video games, Watch Glee, and eat some potato chips

Uh oh. I did all of those things this week - some of them more than once.

Me too! Well except watch Glee, I've never understood that show. Would I be a good armchair logger?

6.7k · June 25, 2011

They are LOSERS and I would prefer them to play video games, Watch Glee, and eat some potato chips

Uh oh. I did all of those things this week - some of them more than once.

Me too! Well except watch Glee, I've never understood that show. Would I be a good armchair logger?

Me too, but I like Glee, it's one of the few shows my wife and I watch together. And I'm sitting here eating potato chips and banging away at the computer right now. I guess I'm SUCH a loser! I better look around online for some caches to log. :huh:

June 25, 2011

They are LOSERS and I would prefer them to play video games, Watch Glee, and eat some potato chips

Uh oh. I did all of those things this week - some of them more than once.

Me too! Well except watch Glee, I've never understood that show. Would I be a good armchair logger?

Me too, but I like Glee, it's one of the few shows my wife and I watch together. And I'm sitting here eating potato chips and banging away at the computer right now. I guess I'm SUCH a loser! I better look around online for some caches to log.

I never said that doing those things made you a loser but I prefer people who are going to sit at home and do whatever have fun doing that and not wasting time logging. Way to take it out of context. I even said I liked all but Glee. The point of all of this is if you arnt going to really log them stay at home and spend yourt time doing those things that are not wasting others times.

But I do hold to the point if you are an armchair logger you are a loser.

1k · June 25, 2011

...I prefer people who are going to sit at home and do whatever have fun doing that and not wasting time logging.

But I'm having FUN doing the logging! It's not wasting time if it's FUN!

June 25, 2011

I'm relatively new to geocaching (less than a year under my geobelt) and I think I've just found what the geocaching community refers to as an "armchair cachers" -- someone who logs finds online that can't be substantiated when looking at the physical log.

This completely perplexed me, because... why? I know it's just a game, but if you're not going to play by the rules, what's the point? And also, I just don't personally get what a fake logger gets out of it? So, I started reading these forums, and I calmed myself down: maybe I'll mention it to one of the CO's I'm a friend of, maybe not, maybe they'll delete the log, maybe not. Live and let live. Cache and let cache? I'm okay with that.

So here's my question for the more veteran geocachers: what do you do when that armchair cacher logs an FTF on a multiple-DNF'd newly posted cache? And the cacher immediately following that person, ostensibly the second to find, arrives to find a crisp blank log? The armchair cacher posts a note about not having a pen. Er... okay. Perplexing.

To top that, the armchair cacher logged FTF on the first hide of (I believe) another armchair cacher. Quite possibly... the same cacher, or at the very least, a friend of. Confused yet?

It's a long story, and I do have evidence for all this. I want to add that I'm not looking to "police" the area or others' geocaches. I guess I'm just curious what, if anything, cachers with far more experience than I, would do?

And also, to be honest, I'm posting to vent a little and maybe find some solace in that. (My muggle friends wouldn't understand. Literally!) It's silly, I know, because this is just a fun hobby, but when I first discovered this, it was such a shock to me that it actually made me a bit Disheartened would be the word for it. Oh, I'll get it over it. And in the end, I should't let my being appalled by such brazen dishonesty affect how much I personally enjoy the game, right? Live and let live. Cache and let cache?

From the thread "Fake smilies":

"What's to stop me from going to random cache's online and logging that I found them even if I didn't?"

"A sense of honor, ethics and truthfulness?"

Well, I'd better get some sleep. I have tomorrow off and there's some caches near the beach I've got on the to do list. Happy summer caching, everyone!

-tvchick.

Thus the reason I ALWAYS have a Space Pen in my wallet, one in my car, one on my work clothes, and 2 spares at home. IF on a FTF, I'll Always have 2. There was one time that Somehow I left home without the wallet, and had just changed pants... so no pen xcept in the car. After hiking to the cache and finding that it was a micro in the woods. I found the cache and had no pen. Took a Picture, ran BACK to the car, and another cacher was just pulling in at that time. Luckly, they were walking as I was jogging back. Still got the FTF, but learned my lesson.

The Steaks

P.S. Has also happened where I went to the nearest cache(that was a regular) and borrowed that pen to sign the log of the other cache.

6.1k · June 25, 2011

I'm a loser, but I haven't played any video games, watched glee, or ate ANY potato chips in a long time.

Perhaps I'm doing something wrong???

Edited June 25, 2011 by 4wheelin_fool

3.8k · June 26, 2011

If it's my cache, and the person in question didn't sign the log, the on-line finds gets deleted.

No appeals, no exceptions.

1k · June 26, 2011

If it's my cache, and the person in question didn't sign the log, the on-line finds gets deleted.

No appeals, no exceptions.

And you have FUN deleting those logs, right? See, everyone's happy.

9.3k · June 26, 2011

On my cache I would delete the log, on a friends cache I would point it out to my friend, on someone elses cache I would just ignore it.

A slightly different version for me:

On my cache I would ignore the log, on a friends cache I might point it out to my friend, if I felt they were concerned about such things, on someone elses cache I would just ignore it.

6.7k · June 26, 2011

I have never checked the log book in one of my caches against the online logs. Never intend to. If someone logs a bogus find on one of my caches so be it, that's their problem.

I have deleted exactly two logs, and then only because a thread in our local forum warned that an armchair cacher was logging caches in our area. One of my caches that he logged is the oldest in Alabama and I felt like the logs for it should be kept as clean as possible of this sort of thing. We discussed it online and decide that was just too lame to let go, so all of us deleted his logs. Short of something like that coming up again I can't see myself policing and deleting logs.

10.2k · June 26, 2011

Don't sweat the small stuff. Serisouly. You will enjoy the game a lot more if you don't worry about what other players do or don't do.

Don't think your little "Serisouly" went unnoticed. Well yeah, what you say, and the consensus seems to be delete if your own, tell a friend if theirs, ignore if just observed. Heck no, don't ignore it. It's certainly fun to watch, and point at them and laugh. You think I ignored Oculus Prime when he armchair logged 2,000 caches all over North America? :lol:

My "Armchair cacher" and false logs dilemma

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