Idea to Thwart Trackable Theives

May 23, 2011

Here is an idea to try and thwart theives and at least make them work hard to steal trackables. I think many theives use the website and especially pocket queries to target caches with trackables; the below optional setting would prevent this, and make finding a trackable a true discovery experience.

Allow owners of trackables the option to hide the current location of their trackable, so would-be thieves can't easily go around stealing all the coins and TBs from caches.

I've submitted the idea and you can vote here.

Details:

1) This would be an optional check box that an owner can click on the trackable edit page.

2) Any Geocacher could request that an owner allow them to follow the current position of a trackable; the owner would get a notification and then allow that geocacher to see the current location (similar to friend request).

3) Always visible would be the trackable description page, and the past history of the trackable, just not the most recent 'placed in' location.

3) The current location, if it is a cache, would be hidden. If it is currently in the hands of another geocacher, this could be visible. The current location would have to be removed from all pages and also pocket queries, until it becomes a matter of history.

4) Event caches could be exempt.

Again, this is optional, and doesn't really detract from the website much, since the inventory of any given cache is always wrong anyway. I think this could improve the quality of cache contents in the long run, and safeguard trackables so that there are more in play to discover.

Edited May 23, 2011 by ATXTracker

6.7k · May 23, 2011

Why exempt events? There was a mangy little weasel at ASP GeoBash yesterday who tried to steal a coin right out of the coin expo.

May 23, 2011

I don't see a down side to this idea. Anyone else, thoughts?

22k · May 23, 2011

I don't see a down side to this idea. Anyone else, thoughts?

Yes, why in the heck are you releasing anything worth stealing or that you don't want to lose? Plus, hiding the locale under the assumption that it is being targeted simply leads to confusion, and even more likelihood it'll be misplaced.

edit.

Edited May 23, 2011 by BlueDeuce

May 23, 2011

... hiding the locale under the assumption that it is being targeted simply leads to confusion, and even more likelihood it'll be misplaced.

Good point, the trackable page should be clear when the current location is being hidden, and it should not show up as being located in the previous cache it visited. Maybe it could say, "CacherName placed it in a cache in Texas" or something like that.

1.7k · May 23, 2011

Why exempt events? There was a mangy little weasel at ASP GeoBash yesterday who tried to steal a coin right out of the coin expo.

You're worrying me. I have a total of 3 geocoins, I just bought one more. I was planning on putting them all out on the table next event...

Now, not so sure...

22k · May 23, 2011

... hiding the locale under the assumption that it is being targeted simply leads to confusion, and even more likelihood it'll be misplaced.

Good point, the trackable page should be clear when the current location is being hidden, and it should not show up as being located in the previous cache it visited. Maybe it could say, "CacherName placed it in a cache in Texas" or something like that.

I've dealt with misplaced bugs and have a general opinion as to why it happens. The main point is to never release anything you are not willing to lose. If you want to keep your bug in circulation the best thing is to put logging instructions in the hands of the finder. Thieves only account for a small portion of lost bugs. Get your bug properly labeled and proper logging will keep your bug alive longer than any security system that keeps them hidden.

22k · May 23, 2011

I've submitted the idea and you can vote here.

I'd rather see a search option to determine the goal/destination of nearby bugs.

May 23, 2011

[i'd rather see a search option to determine the goal/destination of nearby bugs.

Good idea, but not quite the same. You should post that in the feedback site. I'd vote for it.

1.3k · May 23, 2011

Why exempt events? There was a mangy little weasel at ASP GeoBash yesterday who tried to steal a coin right out of the coin expo.

Hmm, Love to hear how that all went down.

22k · May 23, 2011

[i'd rather see a search option to determine the goal/destination of nearby bugs.

Good idea, but not quite the same. You should post that in the feedback site. I'd vote for it.

I can do that. I do have to wonder why your missing travelers apparently went missing just after being placed in their first cache. The odds seem a little high.

May 23, 2011

Trackable theives...uncommon, but existing.

More commonly, cachers grab a TB, and forget to log it in that day, only to discover it 5 years later in their drawer. This is the most common reason why a TB gets "lost".

6.7k · May 23, 2011

Why exempt events? There was a mangy little weasel at ASP GeoBash yesterday who tried to steal a coin right out of the coin expo.

Hmm, Love to hear how that all went down.

He waited until a friend was distracted. Grabbed a coin out of his binder and headed out the door. Unfortunately for him my wife saw him and called out to me to stop him. I chased him down and confronted him. He gave up the coin. Looked like he was gonna wet himself. Headed for the parking last I saw him.

The funny part is he coulda just denied the whole thing and walked. There was no way I'd touch him over a fifteen dollar coin. But he didn't know that. :anibad:

May 23, 2011

Trackable theives...uncommon, but existing.

I think coins are much more frequent targets of theft than are TBs, but I think both are sometimes taken.

22k · May 23, 2011

Trackable theives...uncommon, but existing.

I think coins are much more frequent targets of theft than are TBs, but I think both are sometimes taken.

And why is that.

6.7k · May 23, 2011

Trackable theives...uncommon, but existing.

I think coins are much more frequent targets of theft than are TBs, but I think both are sometimes taken.

And it only takes one trackable thief in an area to make a whole bunch of stuff go buh-bye.

19k · May 23, 2011

I think that it is an extremely small minority of trackables that go missing because somebody wants to steal/collect them. My guess is that most are 1) lost in car seats 2) lost on desktops of ex-cachers that have just discovered Facebook or some other shiney object or 3) think that they can trade a dirty used golf ball for it.

6k · May 23, 2011

The problem is not theft. It is mostly people with a lack of knowledge about what a traveler is or someone who doesn't care. Noobs take them and stop caching with them still in a drawer. Basically it is one of negligence not intentional effort.

As such this feedback is another reason they should let people vote no.

Is it a good idea to create a whole new layer of work for the very rare thief. Sounds like overkill to me. Let me get that hammer out so I can deal with the fly that is annoying me.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Walts Hunting

22k · May 23, 2011

I think that it is an extremely small minority of trackables that go missing because somebody wants to steal/collect them. My guess is that most are 1) lost in car seats 2) lost on desktops of ex-cachers that have just discovered Facebook or some other shiney object or 3) think that they can trade a dirty used golf ball for it.

Kind of wants you to make your tb worth less than a dirty golf-ball, doughnut?

May 23, 2011

Is it a good idea to create a whole new layer of work for the very rare thief. Sounds like overkill to me. Let me get that hammer out so I can deal with the fly that is annoying me.

Eve if it IS rare (which I doubt - but none of us have actual evidence of that one way or another), it only takes one or a few to do incredible damage.

The current trackable inventory is COMPLETELY ineffective. I think they should all be hidden. Since we as cachers aren't able to uphold the responsibility of logging trackables appropriately to keep the website inventory valid, why have it? What possible purpose is it serving in it's current state?

22k · May 23, 2011

Is it a good idea to create a whole new layer of work for the very rare thief. Sounds like overkill to me. Let me get that hammer out so I can deal with the fly that is annoying me.

Eve if it IS rare (which I doubt - but none of us have actual evidence of that one way or another), it only takes one or a few to do incredible damage.

The current trackable inventory is COMPLETELY ineffective. I think they should all be hidden. Since we as cachers aren't able to uphold the responsibility of logging trackables appropriately to keep the website inventory valid, why have it? What possible purpose is it serving in it's current state?

What you are saying is that people shouldn't release travelers. Whatever sub-method you can think of wouldn't work either.

I find the community to be very good at moving bugs. I do however keep my expectations realistic. I don't release shiny, cool, un-replaceable coins.

May 23, 2011

I really can't think of a reason to NOT at least let someone hide it from showing up in a caches inventory. I know some people collect and even sometimes steal geocoins they haven't seen before... and t's definitely made me think coins are a waste of money next to a TB.

Never heard of someone stealing a TB unless you attached something nice (why would you do that?)

Still, there are better places to put resources right now...

May 23, 2011

What you are saying is that people shouldn't release travelers. Whatever sub-method you can think of wouldn't work either.

I don't think anyone would suggest getting rid of trackables all together. I lock my car even though the chance of it being stolen is low, and even though locking it doesn't absolutely prevent it from being stolen. It is just a deterrent. I'm definitely not going to stop driving.

Right now pocket queries allow people to get a list of all the locations of recently placed coins/TBs, and it only takes a few bad cookies to make a big dent in the coin/TB population of an area.

I am proposing an OPTIONAL feature, so nothing would change for those owners who don't care. But it could definitely prevent someone for grabbing a PQ, looking for all the newly dropped coins, and then driving around picking them all up.

I think it would be much better if trackables were a pleasant surprise, rather than a constant disappointment.

If you don't like it, then simply don't check the check box.

8k · May 23, 2011

I've seen this suggestion before. I have trouble understanding why a coin/bug onwer would think this would keep trackables from going missing.

My guess is that the major problem are when trackables are found in a cache by someone who doesn't know what they are. These people take the assuming there are just another trade item. I foo many trackable owners take the option of hiding that their trackable is in a cache that would just increase the probability that the they will be found by someone who doesn't know what a trackable is. When cache page or pocket query shows that there are trackables, one would hope that a finder would notice and if they didn't know what a trackable was they could click on the link to see it.

Probably the next biggest problem are caches that get muggled and the muggle takes everything in the cache, trackable or not. The muggles aren'r looking for caches with lots of trackables to muggle. They just happen to find the cache by accident in most cases.

A few cache maggots may search for caches to steal and some may even decide that a cache with coins in it may be more worthwhile stealing. I suppose that this proposal might make these caches a little more secure. Still I think the muggles will just go for regular size caches that are likely to have coins in them even if these are not advertised. It just doesn't seem clear to me that this idea would make a significant difference.

On the other hand some trackable owner will now complain that their trackable is stuck in a remote cache because no one but the trackable owner (and the person who left it) will know it is there.

May 23, 2011

I'm having trouble seeing any upsides to the plan.

I will go out of my way to pick up your trackable and help it move. When I have a trip planned, the 1-2 weeks before I will gather trackables wanting to move that way. At the destination, I will research nearby trackables that would like to come back with me to replenish the TBs and coins that were removed from my area. Do you want movement, or not? And forget photos of the area where your trackable got placed--it would be spoiling the hidden drop zone now. Forget rescue missions to get stuck bugs moving again, too.

No more notes in logs about if the trackables are still in the cache. How are we supposed to remember if this one wants a "It is still safe in the cache" and which ones don't during runs? I try to take a photo for most of the trackables, even if it is just a discover from a cache. That would have to stop, too. And what are you going to do about cachers that include information on the trackables in the cache log? Ask the CO to delete their logs? Many CO won't even bother to remove missing bugs from the cache inventory, so good luck with that.

Surprise! a trackable is in the container. I have no idea how long it has been there because the drop is hidden. Vacation bug? When should grab and record kick in? New cachers finding unlogged trackables on a regular basis will result in them disappearing even more frequently. And only the owner will know they even supposed to be there. If hidden coins disappear in great numbers from a certain caches, how would other cachers know that it has become an unsafe drop container? Collectable/not collectable confusion is going to merge with cachers not knowing how to set the hidden/unhidden box. Wonderful.

Ask owners for permission to watch their trackables? Not going to happen here. Watching can be brief, or lengthy, and for many varied reasons. Bothering the owners with e-mails, trying to explain reasons, wondering if I will hear back in time or at all...forget it! If the owner is the only one supposed to be having fun with trackables, then they can move their own bugs where they want them to go. :tongue:

May 23, 2011

I've seen this suggestion before. I have trouble understanding why a coin/bug onwer would think this would keep trackables from going missing.

It's the circle of life. TB placed in cache, grabbed by person, lost in desk for five years, gets discovered and goes in the trash, becomes recycling and becomes new computer.

21.9k · May 23, 2011

I am moving this thread from the Geocaching Topics forum to the Travel Bug forum.

May 23, 2011

With a FREE membership available which gives users easy access to finding caches this will always attach thieves, those who have no intention of playing the game properly. Only to benefit themselves.

Until travel bugs/items are clearly labbled as such, they are going to be overlooked, and mistaken as swag. I missed a travel bug a few week ago as it wasn't oBvious

I don't have solutions as I'm still new to this, but maybe something could be done to protect the intensional theft of items/caches first. As this is surely the most frustrating.

We are loving the game, but maybe like the 'monopoly' board game, the longer you play the more annoyed you get when people are stealing property from you. ;-)

6k · May 23, 2011

There are a number of tbs that are the key to finding/opening a cache. This would eliminate that part of the game

May 23, 2011

There are a number of tbs that are the key to finding/opening a cache. This would eliminate that part of the game

As proposed, this is optional, so any owner would not have th check the box.

May 23, 2011

Until travel bugs/items are clearly labbled as such, they are going to be overlooked, and mistaken as swag.

Aren't most travels bugs labeled as such. The tags I have say "Do not keep me! I am and a Travel Bug ... visit Groundspeak.com to learn more..."

I also have some personal coins that are clearly labeled "do not keep or collect" in multiple places, and yet quite a few have gone missing.

Obviously, we have to know what we're getting into and I do expect some to go missing, but I still think this could help a little.

Edited May 23, 2011 by ATXTracker

8.8k · May 23, 2011

I just am not seeing how it will help the game. Especially not cachers who like to move TBs. A lot of missing bugs are blamed on thieves, when all it is is that someone failed to log properly, or wait for the previous cacher to log it, and then gets frustrated, because it got messed up. Good idea in theory maybe, but not in implementation.

May 23, 2011

... Especially not cachers who like to move TBs.

Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm curious about 'cachers who like to move TBs' - how do these cachers differ from other cachers? Do they search for caches with TBs and only visit those caches? I my experience, most inventory lists are wrong anyway, so how does these cachers' behavior differently from everyone else?

In my area, I definately think there are cachers who use pocket queries to target coins. It is rare for a coin to stay in a cache for more than a day after being placed, unless that cache is a multi or otherwise time consuming. Many are taken without the coin or the cache being logged. Anyone else see this phenomenon?

May 23, 2011

Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm curious about 'cachers who like to move TBs' - how do these cachers differ from other cachers? Do they search for caches with TBs and only visit those caches? I my experience, most inventory lists are wrong anyway, so how does these cachers' behavior differently from everyone else?

As someone who is still in first year of caching, the TB/geocoins are one of the more enjoyable parts for me. If I'm heading out of town, I enjoy having some trackables that I can take along with me. Gives me extra motivation for making sure I get out to cache while out of town too.

So yes, when picking caches to search for on vacation or in a new area, among other criteria such as favorites, terrain, size, I do look at whether or not a trackable is supposed to be there. Sometimes it is not, sometimes it is. Either way, I enjoy doing my part to clean up that listing to make the experience more enjoyable for the next person to come along. From this process, I can indirectly account for 30+ trackables being marked as missing which is my form of cache CITO. :anitongue:

I also have started searching for caches around my house and slowly expanding the radius, trying to update cache listings as I go. This makes it more enjoyable when I see a new trackable appear within the radius, knowing that I can use that cache to introduce someone to geocaching, pickup a trackable for an upcoming trip, or just watch what comes through my area.

I will admit it is frustrating that a geocacher can't update the missing inventory themselves, or there is no automatic way yet for them to be marked missing. Yet, my hope is my little part will help, at least until this improvement gets built for geocaching.com

8.8k · May 23, 2011

... Especially not cachers who like to move TBs.

Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm curious about 'cachers who like to move TBs' - how do these cachers differ from other cachers? Do they search for caches with TBs and only visit those caches? I my experience, most inventory lists are wrong anyway, so how does these cachers' behavior differently from everyone else?

In my area, I definately think there are cachers who use pocket queries to target coins. It is rare for a coin to stay in a cache for more than a day after being placed, unless that cache is a multi or otherwise time consuming. Many are taken without the coin or the cache being logged. Anyone else see this phenomenon?

As opposed to cachers who don't like to, or who won't move them. For some cachers, this is the most enjoyable part of the game, and they like to look for them.

If people wouldn't be in such an all fired hurry to log them from their phones, people might be able to keep them straight. Back in the day, we'd wait a week or more to give someone a chance to log it. Since these new fangled smart phones came out, it has gotten worse. I guess a smart phone is not called a "patient phone" for a reason, eh? Everyone wants it NOW these days, and they don't wait for logs to catch up to the trackable. Another reason why this idea might not help. No one will see where it is supposed to be.

May 23, 2011

How will you know when it has gone missing? If it does not show up in the inventory, no one will know to look for it or to note that it is not in the cache. I have been able to track down a few of my when someone noted that it is not in the cache, if they did not know that it was in the cache they would not of wrote the note on the trackable page and I would not have been able to go through the logs in a timely manner.

I would think you are just providing a better way for the trackable to go missing.

1.9k · May 23, 2011

Trackable theives...uncommon, but existing.

More commonly, cachers grab a TB, and forget to log it in that day, only to discover it 5 years later in their drawer. This is the most common reason why a TB gets "lost".

Agreed. That's how many of mine have dissappeared.

11.6k · May 24, 2011

Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm curious about 'cachers who like to move TBs' - how do these cachers differ from other cachers? Do they search for caches with TBs and only visit those caches?

As aka Momster previously replied, some caches are bad places to put Trackables, being frequently raided (or even the Cache Owner specifies no Trackables be placed). There's a particular local cache where I rescued a TB that was dropped there. If that Travel Bug drop were invisible, it would be gone tomorrow when the thieves drop by (unless you're suggesting that Find logs which mention placing new Swag also be hidden). And I wouldn't know the TB was ever there -- or that there's an issue.

If there were invisible TB drops, people would have to consistently log when they find no Trackables in a cache (that's good). And they'd have to NOT mention when there are Trackables (that's really really bad).

Edited May 24, 2011 by kunarion

May 24, 2011

but then surely...

If you log to say you found NO trackables

and do not say anything if you did find them.

all you would have to do is look for logs that say nothing about tb and that would tell you one was/and may still be in there.

as all the ones with out tb say theres none as people log to say so :blink:

Edited May 24, 2011 by the borgs

11.6k · May 25, 2011

all you would have to do is look for logs that say nothing about tb and that would tell you one was/and may still be in there.

True. So maybe lots of people could retrieve/drop Trackables and incorrectly do the retrieve/drop logs, so some caches would list TBs that aren't there, and others would list none, or the wrong TBs. It would be the perfect solution. Too bad that could never happen.

11.6k · May 25, 2011

all you would have to do is look for logs that say nothing about tb and that would tell you one was/and may still be in there.

True. So maybe lots of people could retrieve/drop Trackables and incorrectly do the retrieve/drop logs, so some caches would list TBs that aren't there, and others would list none, yet have TBs inside. It would be the perfect solution. Too bad that could never happen.

8.8k · May 25, 2011

You can't get everyone to even know whether to mention or not mention. There is no way to get that word out to everyone. A very small percentage of cachers even know about these forums.

I still think it's best to leave it the way it is, and be more careful about what caches you leave a trackable in. This idea could cause chaos. High muggle area=bad. Caches that constantly need replacing=bad. Caches in flood zones=bad.

If an owner really doesn't want anyone to know where their trackable is, and I can't think why they wouldn't, just mark it missing.

8.6k · May 25, 2011

... If an owner really doesn't want anyone to know where their trackable is, and I can't think why they wouldn't, just mark it missing.

Here's a link to one of my geocoin where I did just that. Every time it got placed into a new cache I marked it as "missing" so that it would not show up as being in that cache inventory. Why do it? - Just for a bit of fun, so that cachers might find it as a "surprise", not because I thought it would actually prevent it from disappearing (permanently) eventually... which is what happened! It might re-appear one day:

"Disappearing Dog"

MrsB

May 29, 2011

A lock only keeps HONEST men honest...

This idea seems like a thief's dream. Previously they may have been deterred from logging their find in order not to be discovered for taking the object.

Not the case with this idea. The location it is in is hidden. When they enter a log, nobody knows it's in the cache to begin with except the cacher who dropped it (who will most likely not look back on it) & the TB owner. They don't have to mention it at all, & nobody will know that it went missing right at the time they visited, except the TB owner. One person across the country knowing they took it is a LOT more appealing than the handful in their area that would have known otherwise.

They just got a smilie & a brand new shiny object for themselves, & didn't lose a single friend in their area in the process. I would vote "no".

5k · May 29, 2011

A lock only keeps HONEST men honest...

This idea seems like a thief's dream. Previously they may have been deterred from logging their find in order not to be discovered for taking the object.

Not the case with this idea. The location it is in is hidden. When they enter a log, nobody knows it's in the cache to begin with except the cacher who dropped it (who will most likely not look back on it) & the TB owner. They don't have to mention it at all, & nobody will know that it went missing right at the time they visited, except the TB owner. One person across the country knowing they took it is a LOT more appealing than the handful in their area that would have known otherwise.

They just got a smilie & a brand new shiny object for themselves, & didn't lose a single friend in their area in the process. I would vote "no".

THIS is EXACTLY what I though of when I read the original post.

May 31, 2011

How about make your trackable "viewable to premium members only". Of course you would have to be a Premium member to have that option.

22k · May 31, 2011

How about make your trackable "viewable to premium members only". Of course you would have to be a Premium member to have that option.

Well that would certainly start up a bunch of new forum threads. PMO Bug Owners are Elitists! :anibad:

May 31, 2011

Well that would certainly start up a bunch of new forum threads. PMO Bug Owners are Elitists!

Yep, that's me. Elitist Geocacher. Bwahahaha! :laughing:

But, I think it's the best way to be able to still look for caches with trackables in them, keep them from coin stealers, etc. Benefits Geocaching.com, too. Which with "The Competitor" out there, any little bit might help.

22k · May 31, 2011

Well that would certainly start up a bunch of new forum threads. PMO Bug Owners are Elitists!

Yep, that's me. Elitist Geocacher. Bwahahaha!

But, I think it's the best way to be able to still look for caches with trackables in them, keep them from coin stealers, etc. Benefits Geocaching.com, too. Which with "The Competitor" out there, any little bit might help.

Even if PMO, regular members can still find and move them. We're still back to why you would release something that you didn't want people to find.

Edited May 31, 2011 by BlueDeuce

5k · June 2, 2011

Well that would certainly start up a bunch of new forum threads. PMO Bug Owners are Elitists!

Yep, that's me. Elitist Geocacher. Bwahahaha!

But, I think it's the best way to be able to still look for caches with trackables in them, keep them from coin stealers, etc. Benefits Geocaching.com, too. Which with "The Competitor" out there, any little bit might help.

Even if PMO, regular members can still find and move them. We're still back to why you would release something that you didn't want people to find.

I think the whole idea is to keep people from steeling them than to keep people from finding them.

Unfortunately, I don't know the answer, but I think the original idea would do more harm than good. I think hiding TB locations from basic members would just create a whole new bunch of problems that hs nothing to do with angst on the forums.

BTW. On May 20th, someone logged a find on a high terrain and highly watched cache in our local mountains. He logged that he left a Yellow Jeep 4X4 TB. On Monday, a bunch of us climbed up there. The Jeep is gone. No log on the cache page.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Don_J

Idea to Thwart Trackable Theives

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