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Warning message about my caches from Groundspeak


TheWeatherWarrior
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Got the following email from "Jessica":

 

Hi Jason,

 

It has come to our attention that a section of your cache pages goes against the Terms of Use of our site. The section in which you say:

 

"Donations to maintain or upgrade cache containers are welcome. I can no longer bare the cost due to frequent maintenance of my caches. Just place donations in the cache (where's george are perfect). Don't need much, mostly just to cover cost of a 'good' container. If anyone wants to donate containers, log books, etc. directly to me, just send me a message. Thank you."

 

Needs to be removed or the caches need to be archived. This needs to be done by January 13, 2010 or I will archive the caches for you.

 

Please let me know if you have any questions.

 

Best Regards,

Jessica

 

I took a look at the Terms of Use and the Guidelines and see nothing in there that violates the rules with my request for assistance.

 

I also find it interesting that this came after another geocacher (MotherWolf...aka Darlene) couldn't accept that I disagreed with here about my asking for assistance rather than just automatically archiving my caches.

 

I'm also only given a few days notice and my reply messages have been ignored. Groundspeak sure is isn't sympathetic to many caches owners these days...especially ones that had medical issues and are unemployed at the moment, and just want some help.

Edited by n3prz
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Asking for money is inappropriate. If you're unable to maintain your caches, archive them or adopt them to someone who can.

 

Got the following email from "Jessica":

 

Hi Jason,

 

It has come to our attention that a section of your cache pages goes against the Terms of Use of our site. The section in which you say:

 

"Donations to maintain or upgrade cache containers are welcome. I can no longer bare the cost due to frequent maintenance of my caches. Just place donations in the cache (where's george are perfect). Don't need much, mostly just to cover cost of a 'good' container. If anyone wants to donate containers, log books, etc. directly to me, just send me a message. Thank you."

 

Needs to be removed or the caches need to be archived. This needs to be done by January 13, 2010 or I will archive the caches for you.

 

Please let me know if you have any questions.

 

Best Regards,

Jessica

 

I took a look at the Terms of Use and the Guidelines and see nothing in there that violates the rules with my request for assistance.

 

I also find it interesting that this came after another geocacher (MotherWolf...aka Darlene) couldn't accept that I disagreed with here about my asking for assistance rather than just automatically archiving my caches.

 

I'm also only given a few days notice and my reply messages have been ignored. Groundspeak sure is isn't sympathetic to many caches owners these days...especially ones that had medical issues and are unemployed at the moment, and just want some help.

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I took a look at the Terms of Use and the Guidelines and see nothing in there that violates the rules with my request for assistance.

 

How about 4(e):

4. Use of Publishing Tools and Forums

<snip>

(e) Upload, post or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation.

 

You're soliciting donations.

Edited by Stunod
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Got the following email from "Jessica":

 

Hi Jason,

 

It has come to our attention that a section of your cache pages goes against the Terms of Use of our site. The section in which you say:

 

"Donations to maintain or upgrade cache containers are welcome. I can no longer bare the cost due to frequent maintenance of my caches. Just place donations in the cache (where's george are perfect). Don't need much, mostly just to cover cost of a 'good' container. If anyone wants to donate containers, log books, etc. directly to me, just send me a message. Thank you."

 

Needs to be removed or the caches need to be archived. This needs to be done by January 13, 2010 or I will archive the caches for you.

 

Please let me know if you have any questions.

 

Best Regards,

Jessica

 

I took a look at the Terms of Use and the Guidelines and see nothing in there that violates the rules with my request for assistance.

 

I also find it interesting that this came after another geocacher (MotherWolf...aka Darlene) couldn't accept that I disagreed with here about my asking for assistance rather than just automatically archiving my caches.

 

I'm also only given a few days notice and my reply messages have been ignored. Groundspeak sure is isn't sympathetic to many caches owners these days...especially ones that had medical issues and are unemployed at the moment, and just want some help.

 

If you can't afford to maintain your caches, for whatever reason, have someone adopt them or you can archive them.

 

I'm not going back to the guidelines to figure out what part of the guidelines a request for money would violate but I'm sure there is one. Even if there isn't a guideline that stops you from asking for money, there should be.

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From the Guidelines:

 

Caches that Solicit

 

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

Asking people to donate money is, quite obviously, a form of soliciting. Geocaching is a voluntary hobby. Nobody is forcing you to put yourself out for it.

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The Waterproof Matchstick containers are less than a dollar are less than a dollar at American Walmarts. They make fairly good containers, despite their small size.

 

As for a logbook, I make my own for virtually nothing. I take a piece of blank paper, cut it into strips the width of one of my rulers, 'staple' them together (I actually use a little piece of 20 gauge wire, because my stapler sucks...), and wrap the top of it with a piece of hockey tape. They only cost a couple of cents (if that) and 2 or 3 minutes of my time. They seem to be working well too!

 

Solicitations and agendas are against the guidelines, and although I know that you're not trying to cause any trouble with this, it is still a violation of the guidelines. I definitely think that you would be wise to simply comply with Jessica's request

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From the Guidelines:

 

Caches that Solicit

 

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

 

There must be some sort of grandfathering going on. I see caches with religious agendas all the time.

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I took a look at the Terms of Use and the Guidelines and see nothing in there that violates the rules with my request for assistance.

 

How about 4(e):

4. Use of Publishing Tools and Forums

<snip>

(e) Upload, post or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation.

 

You're soliciting donations.

 

It is a request for assistance....jeez...I mean is that so difficult. I guess the bottom line is my follow geocachers don't give a rats [butt] about another cacher. I disagree that it is a 'solicitation'. I have no interest in making any personal game, but simply want the caches to remain.

 

I especially find that interesting if you think that is solicitation when there is a whole series of travel bugs (the diabetes ones) solicit (which I supported)!

 

There is even a series of caches in Maryland (MML) that require patronizing a business to get credit for the cache. I don't see how that is above and beyond the fact that geocaching wasn't suppose to be commercialized.

Edited by n3prz
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Request for assistance = solicitation. That's no reflection or judgment on whatever medical issues one might have, nor is it an indication of anyone "not caring." Simply a statement of fact. It's a violation of that ToS section and needs to be respected.

 

--M (Rodan)

 

I took a look at the Terms of Use and the Guidelines and see nothing in there that violates the rules with my request for assistance.

 

How about 4(e):

4. Use of Publishing Tools and Forums

<snip>

(e) Upload, post or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation.

 

You're soliciting donations.

 

It is a request for assistance....jeez...I mean is that so difficult. I guess the bottom line is my follow geocachers don't give a rats [butt] about another cacher. I disagree that it is a 'solicitation'. I have no interest in making any personal game, but simply want the caches to remain.

 

I especially find that interesting if you think that is solicitation when there is a whole series of travel bugs (the diabetes ones) solicit which I supported!

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There is even a series of caches in Maryland (MML) that require patronizing a business to get credit for the cache. I don't see how that is above and beyond the fact that geocaching wasn't suppose to be commercialized.

 

That is against the guidelines, and it's probably only a matter of time before the CO gets a similar email

 

There must be some sort of grandfathering going on. I see caches with religious agendas all the time.

 

Quite often cache descriptions are changed after publication, or else slip through the cracks. Also, quasi-religious caches, such as ones that require you to visit historic churches are usually fine, as long as you put a disclaimer on the page, and as long as the cache page talks about history, rather than theology

 

I especially find that interesting if you think that is solicitation when there is a whole series of travel bugs (the diabetes ones) solicit (which I supported)

 

That's a grey area, and it ultimately is Groundspeak's call as to what constitutes 'solicitation'

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It is a request for assistance....jeez...I mean is that so difficult. I guess the bottom line is my follow geocachers don't give a rats [butt] about another cacher. I disagree that it is a 'solicitation'. I have no interest in making any personal game, but simply want the caches to remain.

 

I especially find that interesting if you think that is solicitation when there is a whole series of travel bugs (the diabetes ones) solicit (which I supported)!

 

There is even a series of caches in Maryland (MML) that require patronizing a business to get credit for the cache. I don't see how that is above and beyond the fact that geocaching wasn't suppose to be commercialized.

 

A request for financial assistance is soliciting.

 

Also from the guidelines:

 

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache. If a cache has been published and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be "grandfathered" and allowed to stand as is.

 

Groundspeak sets the CACHE PLACEMENT guidelines, and they are free to make partnerships with corporations and charities as they see fit.

 

Before you start whining that other cachers don't care about you and your caches, why don't you see if there are any local cachers who would be willing to adopt your caches? I know if I was unable to take care of my caches, all I'd have to do is post a note on the local forum and I'd have plenty of volunteers to take care of them for me.

 

The fact that so many cachers ardently defend the solicitation guideline is a pretty good sign that we do, in fact, care.

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From the Guidelines:

 

Caches that Solicit

 

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

 

There must be some sort of grandfathering going on. I see caches with religious agendas all the time.

 

Yeah....GCFC thing I thought would have been prohibited. Makes me want to make a group: GCFD (D=Devil) and see what the reaction is! But this aspect really deserves it's own thread.

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I think the point has been made.. several times here now.

 

No, because asking for assistance should not be, and I feel is not against the rules.

 

The rules have been clearly posted here. I'm sorry you feel differently. I feel like everyone should leave me a free geocoin in my cache but don't expect the rules to be bent for little ole me. :grin:

 

I'm sure there are cachers local to you who would be willing to adopt your caches. Good luck!

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I think the point has been made.. several times here now.

 

No, because asking for assistance should not be, and I feel is not against the rules.

 

Even I, Mr. Contrarian, don't think you have a leg to stand on. That does not mean I don't feel your pain, I do, but I also believe that if you're not capable to hide, don't.

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I think the point has been made.. several times here now.

 

No, because asking for assistance should not be, and I feel is not against the rules.

 

How you "feel" is irrelevant. Once again, here's the definition of SOLICIT. Asking for money is SOLICITING and it is against the rules.

 

If you were asking for others to ADOPT your caches, that would be a different story.

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Request for assistance = solicitation. That's no reflection or judgment on whatever medical issues one might have, nor is it an indication of anyone "not caring." Simply a statement of fact. It's a violation of that ToS section and needs to be respected.

 

I was speaking of some of the responses in thread.

Edited by n3prz
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I was speaking of some of the responses in thread.

 

If the responses seem uncaring, it's because there is an obvious solution to your problem that you are entirely overlooking for no good reason. If your caches are precious to your community, let someone adopt them.

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Before you start whining that other cachers don't care about you and your caches, why don't you see if there are any local cachers who would be willing to adopt your caches? I know if I was unable to take care of my caches, all I'd have to do is post a note on the local forum and I'd have plenty of volunteers to take care of them for me.

 

 

I did, only one replied...on of the old timers like me. But only after getting ridiculed for asking for assistance.

 

There is a lot of nastiness and competitiveness with the hobby these days. I was here when the whole thing started, and none of this would have been a problem.

 

Many don't adopt around here. For a long time I was the one adopting. I have considered that option. It is one I will choose to do if and only if it is an absolute necessity.

 

I also find it so interesting that I was always more than willing to help someone with their caches when help was needed...but not that I need help....(trashy language deleted by moderator).

Edited by mtn-man
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There is a subtle but important difference in a cache listing having a religious agenda and the cache itself having a religious agenda. Feel free to report anything you deem to be a violation of the guidelines.

 

As a general statement, if you cannot afford to maintain and place caches - just don't. I find your solicitation to be tacky at best and downright distateful in practice.

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I did, only one replied...on of the old timers like me. But only after getting ridiculed for asking for assistance.

 

There is a lot of nastiness and competitiveness with the hobby these days. I was here when the whole thing started, and none of this would have been a problem.

 

Many don't adopt around here. For a long time I was the one adopting. I have considered that option. It is one I will choose to do if and only if it is an absolute necessity.

 

If that's true, that's sad. I know that in Ottawa, we have a great caching community with plenty of people who would be willing to help.

 

That doesn't change the fact that your request for cash assistance is blatantly against the rules. If you really can't maintain your caches, and can't find someone to adopt them, you should archive them. I really don't see how cash will help you if you're ill/disabled, anyway.

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This whole thread is kind of silly. You can't afford to maintian your cache? Realy? How much does a lock-n-lock cost down in your area? $1.50? As for a log book, look here for how to make one out of a single sheet of paper (and if you are too poor to use a printer, you can just do the folds on a blank paper and do the rest by hand). If you cache is being muggled regularly (maybe that is why is costs so much), maybe you should move it.

 

Please change your cache page. I don't want you to have your cache archived because of something goofy like this!!

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Please don't place caches that you cannot maintain.

 

If you place a cache and later realize you cannot maintain it, please remove it and archive the listing. Another option is to adopt them to someone that can care for them.

 

Yes, it would be wonderful to have a whole bunch of caches and have someone take care of them for you, but that isn't fair.

 

Don't get me wrong, but many people will care for each other's caches. I have helped others and they have helped me out. Log book here, wipe out the water there. Heck, I have even replaced busted tupperware with an ammo can. That person would do the same thing for me.

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As a general statement, if you cannot afford to maintain and place caches - just don't. I find your solicitation to be tacky at best and downright distateful in practice.

and responses like this is exactly why I and many of my former geocache friends aren't happy of what geocaching has become and left the hobby.

 

After reading the responses in this thread, and that of the MARYLAND group, I guess since I'm poor I don't belong in geocaching anymore...perhaps it's just for the rich folks these days. Perhaps there should be an income requirement when you sign up here.

Edited by n3prz
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I think the point has been made.. several times here now.

 

No, because asking for assistance should not be, and I feel is not against the rules.

 

Asking for assistance isn't not against the rules. Using the Groundspeak cache listing service to ask for assistance, however, is not allowed.

 

You could, for example, submit an event listing, and as long as you don''t solicit for contributions and follow other guidelines it would be submitted. You can then use that event as an opportunity to ask for assistance.

 

Finally, I understand what it's like to be unemployeed and it's certainly no fun at all. I'm sure that you'd prefer to be gainfully employeed so that you don't have to ask for assistance at all.

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From the listing guidelines:

 

Caches that Solicit

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

Asking for money is a charitable request.

 

You, supposedly, read the guidelines before placing the cache so you, supposedly, knew this already.

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and responses like this is exactly why I and many of my former geocache friends aren't happy of what geocaching has become.

 

After reading the responses in this thread, and that of the MARYLAND group, I guess since I'm poor I don't belong in geocaching anymore...perhaps it's just for the rich folks these days.

 

There have been several suggestions of ways to cut down on costs.

 

Anyone who hits hard time financially has to cut back on unnecessary expenses. It is unfortunate that you've hit rough times, but you're breaking the rules and trying to lay a guilt trip on everyone now that you've been caught.

 

The rule against soliciting have been in place for as long as I've been caching. Having health problems and financial problems doesn't excuse you from violating it.

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Finally, I understand what it's like to be unemployeed and it's certainly no fun at all. I'm sure that you'd prefer to be gainfully employeed so that you don't have to ask for assistance at all.

 

<OT>

Being unemployed IS fun. It's the being broke part that sucks

</OT>

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BTW, the Maryland Geocaching Society has a forum where you can post a request for assistance with your caches.

Yes, been there, done that.....see post above! One response

 

This whole thread is kind of silly. You can't afford to maintian your cache? Realy? How much does a lock-n-lock cost down in your area? $1.50?

Try $6 per container...it is also a matter of needing "quality" containers because I'm having to maintain them every month, because newer cachers are not closing the containers. Maintenance was running $25 or more per month. I just wanted to reduce that cost.

 

Please don't place caches that you cannot maintain.

 

If you place a cache and later realize you cannot maintain it, please remove it and archive the listing. Another option is to adopt them to someone that can care for them.

 

Yes, it would be wonderful to have a whole bunch of caches and have someone take care of them for you, but that isn't fair.

 

Don't get me wrong, but many people will care for each other's caches. I have helped others and they have helped me out. Log book here, wipe out the water there. Heck, I have even replaced busted tupperware with an ammo can. That person would do the same thing for me.

 

I have placed and maintained caches for longer than almost anyone here. I started geocaching in 2002. I don't need a lecture about how to maintain caches.

 

The point of this discussion is whether or not I'm soliciting. While a BOOK DEFINITION may qualify it, the geocaching rules is:

 

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

I'm seeking no religious, political, social agenda or charitable contribution other than that to support the hobby.

 

ALSO...the email stated I violated the TOU...not the guidelines.

Edited by n3prz
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As a general statement, if you cannot afford to maintain and place caches - just don't. I find your solicitation to be tacky at best and downright distateful in practice.

and responses like this is exactly why I and many of my former geocache friends aren't happy of what geocaching has become.

 

After reading the responses in this thread, and that of the MARYLAND group, I guess since I'm poor I don't belong in geocaching anymore...perhaps it's just for the rich folks these days.

I have adopted caches from other cachers.

 

I replace logbooks and repair containers.

 

I do it to be kind to others.

 

What I don't do is throw out things knowing right from the beginning that I cannot take care of them and then I expect and beg others to do it for me. Too much of that kind of thinking already goes on in society. That doesn't seem like a terribly caring or kind thing to do.

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As a general statement, if you cannot afford to maintain and place caches - just don't. I find your solicitation to be tacky at best and downright distateful in practice.

and responses like this is exactly why I and many of my former geocache friends aren't happy of what geocaching has become.

 

After reading the responses in this thread, and that of the MARYLAND group, I guess since I'm poor I don't belong in geocaching anymore...perhaps it's just for the rich folks these days.

 

...And that post doesn't deserve an eye roll at all...

 

I've given you a suggestion as to how to maintain your caches for around $1 US each, and we've all told you that using a Groundspeak cache page to ask for donations is against the guidelines.

 

There's really very little we can do aside from that. You own a GPS, and therefore you can still participate if you so desire, however you can't violate the guidelines in order to keep your caches active - They will be archived if you don't comply with Jessica's request. It's not unreasonable to ask that you comply with the guidelines.

 

Nobody is telling you that you don't 'belong in geocaching anymore,' all we are saying is that the caches that you own are your responsibility.

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The point of this discussion is whether or not I'm soliciting. While a BOOK DEFINITION may qualify it, the geocaching rules is:

 

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

I'm seeking no religious, political, social agenda or charitable contribution other than that to support the hobby.

 

The key words being "for example." You are seeking charity, therefore you are soliciting, and it's against the rules. It is irrelevant if the charity is "Save the Whales" or "Save My Geocaches."

 

Groundspeak's staff thinks it's against the rules, and so does everyone who has replied to you.

 

I am looking at the Maryland forums right now, and I see lots of requests for cache adoption, all of which seem to have received enthusiastic offers of help from other Maryland cachers. I don't see any requests by you.

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I'm seeking no religious, political, social agenda or charitable contribution other than that to support the hobby.

 

I'd debate that.

 

You're seeking assistance in maintaining your own caches - That is asking for charity - It is asking to support you and your property, regardless of whether or not that property is a part of the hobby.

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I'll make you a deal, Jason.

 

Set up a Montgomery County meet-and-greet event and I'll come and give you a tenner.

 

Nobody ever hosts events down here. They're always in Westminster, Hagerstown and so forth. I've thought about doing it myself, but I'd rather attend than host. I've seen your sig in several caches, and I'm eager to meet you and all the other people behind the logs-- _JohnnyCache, in particular.

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....

This whole thread is kind of silly. You can't afford to maintian your cache? Realy? How much does a lock-n-lock cost down in your area? $1.50?

Try $6 per container...it is also a matter of needing "quality" containers because I'm having to maintain them every month, because newer cachers are not closing the containers. Maintenance was running $25 or more per month. I just wanted to reduce that cost.

 

Maybe you should shop around for a better price. Try Walmart (that is 6 for $10.50 or $1.75 each (my guess was quite close)). If by "maintaining them every month" you mean replacing them, you need to re-think your approach. A cache should not need to be repaired or replaced every month.

 

I see you have 22 chaches. So for $25 you could be replacing 12 (over 50% of your caches) every month. This seems a little over kill. As for quality, as a self diclaired poor person, you can't be too choosy. RubberMaid Lock-n-locks are realy not that bad. I use them sometimes, and I have not declaired myself poor.

 

You could also try adding the solicitation to your stash note rather than on the cache page. That would not be against the guidlines.

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A further investigation of the Maryland forum reveals that you haven't asked for cache adoption, you've asked people to donate cache containers. You've also demonstrated an alarming sense of entitlement, and drawn ridicule for inappropriate content in your signature line.

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As a general statement, if you cannot afford to maintain and place caches - just don't. I find your solicitation to be tacky at best and downright distateful in practice.

and responses like this is exactly why I and many of my former geocache friends aren't happy of what geocaching has become.

 

After reading the responses in this thread, and that of the MARYLAND group, I guess since I'm poor I don't belong in geocaching anymore...perhaps it's just for the rich folks these days.

I have adopted caches from other cachers.

 

I replace logbooks and repair containers.

 

I do it to be kind to others.

 

What I don't do is throw out things knowing right from the beginning that I cannot take care of them and then I expect and beg others to do it for me. Too much of that kind of thinking already goes on in society. That doesn't seem like a terribly caring or kind thing to do.

 

I'm behind StarBrand on this one. He's one of the good guys.

 

Personally, if you think I don't care because I'm not giving you money? ah...yeah...right. Try asking for help instead. You'll probably get a much better response.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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I know as a newbie I'm kind of treading in dangerous waters here.

 

But what's SO BAD about a cache being archived. Especially if they're too "expensive" to maintain for you at the moment? Doesn't that just open an opportunity for a NEW cache to be placed in the area and maybe someone new to the hobby to have a chance to contribute too?

 

And when your situation improves, what stops you from making new caches or un-archiving the old ones?

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I have placed and maintained caches for longer than almost anyone here. I started geocaching in 2002. I don't need a lecture about how to maintain caches.

 

The point of this discussion is whether or not I'm soliciting. While a BOOK DEFINITION may qualify it, the geocaching rules is:

 

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

I'm seeking no religious, political, social agenda or charitable contribution other than that to support the hobby.

 

ALSO...the email stated I violated the TOU...not the guidelines.

 

I call bull.

 

157 finds and 13 active caches would hardly classify you as being more qualified than most. You DO appear to need a lecture on how to maintain caches if you are spending that much time and money maintaining caches.

I don't care if you started caching in 2002 or just yesterday, you seem to have a lot to learn.

 

$25 per month to maintain 13 active caches? What are you maintainint them with, gold leaf?

 

This hobby isn't a "pay to play" activity whether or not you want to make it one.

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I know as a newbie I'm kind of treading in dangerous waters here.

 

But what's SO BAD about a cache being archived. Especially if they're too "expensive" to maintain for you at the moment? Doesn't that just open an opportunity for a NEW cache to be placed in the area and maybe someone new to the hobby to have a chance to contribute too?

 

And when your situation improves, what stops you from making new caches or un-archiving the old ones?

 

A toast to my new favourite n00b!

 

:grin:

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