London Royal Parks - Geocaching refused

[+currykev]

RP's?

GAGB??

Coppers???

Writing to the PM????

Waffle!!!!!!

 

PS...at least you didn't archive 1st this time.

 

I may well go underground myself very soon!

I have a few good caching names up my sleeve.

Edited November 20, 2009 by currykev

[+ivanidea]

I may well go underground myself very soon!

 

Will the gps work underground though?

[+drdick&vick]

Petition is now waiting to be passed, I will post a link to it once it is active.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

RP's?

GAGB??

Coppers???

Writing to the PM????

Waffle!!!!!!

 

PS...at least you didn't archive 1st this time.

 

I may well go underground myself very soon!

I have a few good caching names up my sleeve.

 

Hmm.. I spotted a something earlier on your post that has been scrubbed.

 

I consider all my caches placed with adequate permission.

 

Though, I understand your post. It was weird to start this hobby in Canada then come back to the UK and discover the bureaucracy involved.

[+Happy Humphrey]

Sorry to snip, but for the third and last time, I'm going to point out no one has been banned from geocaching within London's Royal Parks. (Rather, 'assumed' permission to hide caches within the parks, due to the public nature of the spaces, has been actively refuted by the body with responsibility to manage those spaces.

Perhaps you have access to inside information, but this is not what has been presented here.

No-one has taken up your suggestion of setting stages of multicaches within parks, because we've been told that it's against the Royal Parks management's wishes;

...the Royal Parks authority have now made a final decision that they do not want any geocaching activity in any of their parks. This is unfortunate but we must abide by their wishes.

That's pretty clear and unequivocal. Even setting a virtual multi stage in a park would be against their wishes, as that's certainly "geocaching activity".

Also, not only "assumed" permission has been refuted; every cache, including those with full written permission, has to be withdrawn.

 

There is an existing cache which has a "virtual" stage - the Peter Pan (London) cache . I've physically found three of the series (including the Hyde Park one), so I know what the format is.

As things are now, the cache has to be redesigned so that the box is somewhere outside Hyde Park (which is going to be difficult in itself). On top of that; even though the theme is based on the Peter Pan sculptures, actually visiting the sculpture is to be discouraged (as it's very much "geocaching activity" within the park), so the instructions...

 

To find the Peter Pan (London) stage one micro go to the given location where in front of the statue you will find a plaque on the ground. On it there are two identical nascent dates ABCD for two persons involved in the statue. Your stage one nano is due north of Peter Pan by BC metres. Inside you will ONLY find the Latitude and Longitude of two other Peter Pans' final cache locations. The new coordinates of Liverpool are now in this cache.

 

...will have to change so that you don't have to go to the statue, and so that the micro is also outside the park. Bit of a tall order without losing the connection with the statue.

[+Haggis Hunter]

Sorry to snip, but for the third and last time, I'm going to point out no one has been banned from geocaching within London's Royal Parks. (Rather, 'assumed' permission to hide caches within the parks, due to the public nature of the spaces, has been actively refuted by the body with responsibility to manage those spaces.

Perhaps you have access to inside information, but this is not what has been presented here.

No-one has taken up your suggestion of setting stages of multicaches within parks, because we've been told that it's against the Royal Parks management's wishes;

...the Royal Parks authority have now made a final decision that they do not want any geocaching activity in any of their parks. This is unfortunate but we must abide by their wishes.

That's pretty clear and unequivocal. Even setting a virtual multi stage in a park would be against their wishes, as that's certainly "geocaching activity".

Also, not only "assumed" permission has been refuted; every cache, including those with full written permission, has to be withdrawn.

 

There is an existing cache which has a "virtual" stage - the Peter Pan (London) cache . I've physically found three of the series (including the Hyde Park one), so I know what the format is.

As things are now, the cache has to be redesigned so that the box is somewhere outside Hyde Park (which is going to be difficult in itself). On top of that; even though the theme is based on the Peter Pan sculptures, actually visiting the sculpture is to be discouraged (as it's very much "geocaching activity" within the park), so the instructions...

 

To find the Peter Pan (London) stage one micro go to the given location where in front of the statue you will find a plaque on the ground. On it there are two identical nascent dates ABCD for two persons involved in the statue. Your stage one nano is due north of Peter Pan by BC metres. Inside you will ONLY find the Latitude and Longitude of two other Peter Pans' final cache locations. The new coordinates of Liverpool are now in this cache.

 

...will have to change so that you don't have to go to the statue, and so that the micro is also outside the park. Bit of a tall order without losing the connection with the statue.

HH I have got to say that I am surprised that a person like yourself, who generally tends to get his facts straight before posting, has missed this good sized confirmation post made by Graculus?

 

Regarding multi-caches and mystery caches with waypoints/clues. These would be OK in the parks as long as they are not physical containers - these must be outside the park boundaries.

If anyone has just archived a multi-cache or mystery cache that had the final location or a stage physically in the park and would prefer it to remain but is able to move the physical elements outside the park then we can unarchive it subject to the new location(s) meeting current guidelines and proximity to any other caches. Please contact either myself or my colleague The Bee Keeper.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

So it would appear that the Peter Pan cache can remain, it just needs to be re-jigged to have the container outside the park.

[+The Blorenges]

Sorry to snip, but for the third and last time, I'm going to point out no one has been banned from geocaching within London's Royal Parks. (Rather, 'assumed' permission to hide caches within the parks, due to the public nature of the spaces, has been actively refuted by the body with responsibility to manage those spaces.

Perhaps you have access to inside information, but this is not what has been presented here.

No-one has taken up your suggestion of setting stages of multicaches within parks, because we've been told that it's against the Royal Parks management's wishes;

...the Royal Parks authority have now made a final decision that they do not want any geocaching activity in any of their parks. This is unfortunate but we must abide by their wishes.

That's pretty clear and unequivocal. Even setting a virtual multi stage in a park would be against their wishes, as that's certainly "geocaching activity".

Also, not only "assumed" permission has been refuted; every cache, including those with full written permission, has to be withdrawn.

 

There is an existing cache which has a "virtual" stage - the Peter Pan (London) cache . I've physically found three of the series (including the Hyde Park one), so I know what the format is.

As things are now, the cache has to be redesigned so that the box is somewhere outside Hyde Park (which is going to be difficult in itself). On top of that; even though the theme is based on the Peter Pan sculptures, actually visiting the sculpture is to be discouraged (as it's very much "geocaching activity" within the park), so the instructions...

 

To find the Peter Pan (London) stage one micro go to the given location where in front of the statue you will find a plaque on the ground. On it there are two identical nascent dates ABCD for two persons involved in the statue. Your stage one nano is due north of Peter Pan by BC metres. Inside you will ONLY find the Latitude and Longitude of two other Peter Pans' final cache locations. The new coordinates of Liverpool are now in this cache.

 

...will have to change so that you don't have to go to the statue, and so that the micro is also outside the park. Bit of a tall order without losing the connection with the statue.

 

Was this not clarified in post #29?

 

Clarification regarding virtual waypoints/clues within the Royal Parks.

 

"Regarding multi-caches and mystery caches with waypoints/clues. These would be OK in the parks as long as they are not physical containers - these must be outside the park boundaries."

 

I read that to mean that you can wander around HM's park, holding your GPS, looking for waypoints and collecting information but the final physical cache container that you then go to seek must be outside the park's boundaries.

 

MrsB

[+Happy Humphrey]

I did notice that, but I took it to be a geocacher's interpretation, whereas the original statement was "straight from the horse's mouth". But I could be wrong, as I admit that Chris's clarification does look quite authoritative..

Edited November 20, 2009 by Happy Humphrey

[+MartyBartfast]

On the issue of Hyde Park and my Peter Pan cache, I would like suggestions and guidance.

 

This is an international multi involving all 7 Peter Pan statues in 5 countries across 3 continents. Its immediate closure will bring down all the other six parts of the multi.

 

Any sensible thoughts on how to keep this up and running in any form will be much appreciated. My 'beg' to reviewers is NOT to wade in and immediately archive it. Just give me time to sort things out.

 

I did this cache, and very much enjoyed it - thanks. Why not move the physicals to nearby Holland Park, which isn't a Royal Park so doesn't fall under this ruling, but leave the virtual part of visiting the statue as is?

[+kewfriend]

I did this cache, and very much enjoyed it - thanks. Why not move the physicals to nearby Holland Park, which isn't a Royal Park so doesn't fall under this ruling, but leave the virtual part of visiting the statue as is?

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

If there is a problem it will hang on the issue of cache density in HP. This may be one of those rare instances when reviewer 'discretion' may be needed re cache densities. Its not that far between the parks. The main problem on this cache is that all the relevant linked caches will need to have their first stages updated so this will not be a quick process which is why I am asking the review team not to wade in archiving left right and centre.

 

I have already archived SPOUT in Bushy.

 

Again I note that the RP said access after dark was not permitted in their parks. WRONG WRONG WRONG: in Richmond we have the legal rights, we exercise those rights and the RP respect that. I have real difficulties with the continual double double speak emanating from the central RP - but down on the ground in Richmond our rights are in fact respected.

[+currykev]

I did this cache, and very much enjoyed it - thanks. Why not move the physicals to nearby Holland Park, which isn't a Royal Park so doesn't fall under this ruling, but leave the virtual part of visiting the statue as is?

 

Oi...that's my manor!

But of course I'll allow it.

[+NickandAliandEliza]

Pointless posting deleted.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Nick & Ali

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Pointless reply deleted

 

"Nick & Ali"

 

Please cache on, the more people in your positions that we have caching, the more understanding can be spread throughout the wider community.

 

 

(said it here because forum software wouldn't let me send private message)

Edited November 21, 2009 by _TeamFitz_

[Neath Worthies]

Pointless posting deleted.

From what I recall of reading it, I would hardly describe your posting as pointless. I think it raised some very valid points worthy of saying, even if I didn't personally agree with everything. On the whole it was very valid.

 

Good on you.

[+Loony Londo]

I was preparing a multi going round St James'd Park. I had found a really good location for the actual cache in St James's Park which I now can not use but as I understnad the ruling I can have the waypoints in St James's Park using existing plaques and so on .I will just have to put the final actual cache outside the park. Is that correct?

[+drdick&vick]

 

Clarification regarding virtual waypoints/clues within the Royal Parks.

 

"Regarding multi-caches and mystery caches with waypoints/clues. These would be OK in the parks as long as they are not physical containers - these must be outside the park boundaries."

 

 

It would appear so

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

 

Clarification regarding virtual waypoints/clues within the Royal Parks.

 

"Regarding multi-caches and mystery caches with waypoints/clues. These would be OK in the parks as long as they are not physical containers - these must be outside the park boundaries."

 

 

It would appear so

 

This is going to sound mean, but what if we, ie. the geo community, just said to RP "No" we're not going to have any caching activity there at all - we're going to ask our members, which includes tourists, to avoid the parks altogether under any circumstances.

 

I mean on the one hand what I'm suggesting is we 'pick up our football and go home' but on the other it's giving a message that maybe they won't miss us till we're gone.

 

If they truly value visitors to their parks, then we'd be effectively calling their bluff if you see what I mean? I'd prefer to have them chasing us saying "Please put caches in our parks....!"

Edited November 21, 2009 by _TeamFitz_

[+Pharisee]

...........that maybe they won't miss us till we're gone.

Believe me... they would not miss us at all. They have more 'muggle visitors' in one day than geocachers in a year.

[+currykev]

I thought we had been avoiding London's RPs for the last couple of years anyway. Since the last flare up with "the Met".

I wouldn't count Richmond Park as it's not in London.

[+saddler21]

So, if we have to stop doing geocaching activity in any RP, I'm stuck - I consider walking to be an essential part of geocaching. So, are they banning geocachers from walking on the land?

[+Simply Paul]

Sorry to snip, but for the third and last time, I'm going to point out no one has been banned from geocaching within London's Royal Parks. (Rather, 'assumed' permission to hide caches within the parks, due to the public nature of the spaces, has been actively refuted by the body with responsibility to manage those spaces.

Perhaps you have access to inside information, but this is not what has been presented here. No-one has taken up your suggestion of setting stages of multicaches within parks, because we've been told that it's against the Royal Parks management's wishes;

...the Royal Parks authority have now made a final decision that they do not want any geocaching activity in any of their parks. This is unfortunate but we must abide by their wishes.

That's pretty clear and unequivocal. Even setting a virtual multi stage in a park would be against their wishes, as that's certainly "geocaching activity".

No inside information, just a logical interpretation of what I've read about this situation. Short of banning GPSrs from the royal parks, and frisking the sort of people who might find a plaque or other feature without one, it only makes sense to ban physical, hidden-object stages from the parks. I'm hoping people do continue to 'hide' virtual stages in the parks, although I'd not dress it up as 'my suggestion' -I merely make the observation that caching hasn't been banned in the parks.

Also, not only "assumed" permission has been refuted; every cache, including those with full written permission, has to be withdrawn.

I wasn't aware of any caches in the parks in question with the proper permissions- I'm glad there is/was some. But permission can be withdrawn for any cache, at any time- so yep, they can still do that. Always could. Edited November 22, 2009 by Simply Paul

[+maxkim]

Also, not only "assumed" permission has been refuted; every cache, including those with full written permission, has to be withdrawn.

I wasn't aware of any caches in the parks in question with the proper permissions- I'm glad there is/was some. But permission can be withdrawn for any cache, at any time- so yep, they can still do that. Always could.

My two caches in Hyde Park had specific permission from the park office and this was why the 'solve the puzzle cache' was published during the moratorium. Maxkim for info...

[+Graculus]

Initially after the Greenwich park problems last year we went for the 'local' permission option from each park manager. This was rather variable and once discussion were underway with the park authorities it was decided to stop any new caches being placed at all until an agreement was reached.

 

Chris

Graculus - Volunteer UK Reviewer for geoacaching.com

Resource website for UK and Ireland geocachers www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

[+kewfriend]

I have submitted an application to the Office of the Public Guardian under the Freedom of Information Act for:

 

All internal emails, notes of meetings and communications with other government departments and with the Metropolitan Police by the Royal Parks Agency concerning the pastime of ‘geocaching’ within the last two years.

 

I hope (provided it does not cost me too much) to unravel the true reasoning - if there is any - behind the RP actions. Wish me luck!

[+Von-Horst]

I have submitted an application to the Office of the Public Guardian...

 

Ummm.

 

You are joking aren't you? sorry if I'm being a bit dim - I've got a lousy cold...

 

 

Mike

[+kewfriend]

Absolutely serious!

[+keehotee]

Looking at The Royal Parks and Other Open Spaces Regulations and the things that ordinary park users would be used to, but are prohibited in the Royal parks , I'd say we got off lucky.....

 

But this bit in particular stands out -

 

Acts in a Park for which written permission is required

.......

(4) attach any article to, climb or interfere with any tree, railing, fence, statue, seat, building or structure;

which seems to imply that any cache that wasn't lying in full view on the open ground would need written permission from the Secretary of State anyway. And caches that were lying in full view on the open ground would fall under littering...

[+Von-Horst]

Absolutely serious!

 

Oh!

 

But isn't the Office of the Public Guardian an organisation that helps people with dementia write wills and stuff?

 

What information would they have about geocaching in the Royal Parks?

 

 

Sorry to be so dim/gullible or whatever but I'm feeling decidedly today!

 

Mike

[+kewfriend]

But isn't the Office of the Public Guardian an organisation that helps people with dementia write wills and stuff?

Yep - my mistake - its gone to the Chief Exec RP Agency. Call it early onset of senility!

[+Von-Horst]

its gone to the Chief Exec RP Agency.

 

Aha! All is now clear. Best of luck.

 

Mike

[+kewfriend]

Thank you for your enquiry dated 23 November 2009, regarding geocaching, under The Freedom of Information Act 2000.

 

Your enquiry is being dealt with and The Royal Parks will aim to reply to your enquiry within 20 working days, commencing from the day after receipt, 24 November 2009.

 

If you have any questions pertaining to this enquiry or require further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me. My contact details are listed below.

 

Anne Marks | Records Manager & Data Protection Officer | The Royal Parks |The Old Police House | Hyde Park |London W2 2UH | Tel: 020 7298 2070 | Fax: 020 7298 2005 |

[+Amberel]

You are joking aren't you? sorry if I'm being a bit dim - I've got a lousy cold...

My turn to apologise for being dim - why should he be joking?

 

Edited to say I've now read the rest of the thread and understand. I would have thought it was fairly obviously a typo.

 

Rgds, Andy

Edited November 23, 2009 by Amberel

[+Dorsetgal & GeoDog]

Absolutely serious!

 

Good for you, will be very interested in the result

[+drdick&vick]

Petition up and running now folks.

Available for signing using this link Sign the petition here

[+kewfriend]

signed

[+Team Noodles]

yup

[+Amberel]

Petition up and running now folks.

Available for signing using this link Sign the petition here

Well done Richard, just waiting for the confirmation email.

 

Rgds, Andy

[+drdick&vick]

ROYAL PARKS PETITION

 

Don't forget to click on the Petition confirmation link in the email that will be sent you.

Edited November 23, 2009 by DrDick&Vick

[+Hillhappy1]

Signed and delivered.

[norsch]

done it

[+MartyBartfast]

me too

[+drdick&vick]

Any chance of local forum users adding the link on there please.

[+Amberel]

Any chance of local forum users adding the link on there please.

I already did the SE Cachers site, OpenCaching and TerraCaching, Lianne saw my SE Cachers post and put it on NW Cachers too.

 

Rgds, Andy

[+emgi]

Signed and sent x

[+The Blorenges]

I've put it into the South Wales forum and have also added it to the Geocaching UK group on facebook.

 

MrsB

Edited November 23, 2009 by The Blorenges

[+kewfriend]

Do put the link to my Christmas Card to the Royal Parks as well.

[+pklong]

Signed. Not that I think it will make the slightest difference.

 

Philip

[+drdick&vick]

We can but try.

[+careygang]

I've not been on the UK forum for about 5 months... its disappointing to see that not a lot has changed I've just read all 3 pages of this topic and feel the need to have a big sigh

Just give it another 2 years and see how restricted London is for caching. As has been pointed out here, there are great swathes of the US that are off limits, principally National Parks where just a few Earth and grandfathered Virtuals exist.

Just live with it. Re-assess in a few years perhaps, but there are many more things worth getting upset about. Now I'm going away for a few more months.

We come back to England in about a year. It'll be nice to cache back in the wet and green again!

Is it my imagination or does this forum get more heated and debating when the winter draws in?

[+kewfriend]

I've just read all 3 pages of this topic and feel the need to have a big sigh ... There are great swathes of the US that are off limits, principally National Parks where just a few Earth and grandfathered Virtuals exist. ... Just live with it.

 

We come back to England in about a year. It'll be nice to cache back in the wet and green again!

We wondered where you'd gone - this green & pleasant land awaits.

 

Without question it is the precisely the refusal to embrace the Just live with it. philosophy that opened up swathes of the countryside, has kept public footpaths open, gave us the right to roam, defeated the crown in Richmond Park etc etc - the list is quite long.

 

No - I (and others I hope) will not just live it. We will challenge it, confront it, debate it and finally we hope - change it.