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This sense of entitlement should not be a part of cache ownership.

 

[snip]

 

Bittsen may just be trying to say that if he owned a cache he would not have any expectation that the logs would be written in any particular style or level of detail.

 

You know, I just have a completely wrong view of this hobby.

 

I'm late for work. I'm going to reflect on this issue and get back you.

 

Think: "Here, I did this for you. What do you think?"

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Me-"Deleting a cacher's log or emailing them to tell them to edit their log because it doesn't meet your standards is the height of hubris."

 

Knowschad-"Just to clarify, (without re-reading the entire thread, I can't be 100% certain of this, but to the best of my knowledge,) the only person that even suggested deleting a log based on the "quality" of said log was the OP, and even he said that he'd sent an email inviting a re-log."

Just to clarify, I'll reword what I posted to more closely convey what I meant generically: "If a cache owner were to either delete a cacher's log or email them to tell them to edit their log because it didn't meet their standards that would be the height of hubris."

 

The OP suggested possibly deleting and/or emailing but I can't imagine anyone who would do either.

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Me-"Deleting a cacher's log or emailing them to tell them to edit their log because it doesn't meet your standards is the height of hubris."

 

Knowschad-"Just to clarify, (without re-reading the entire thread, I can't be 100% certain of this, but to the best of my knowledge,) the only person that even suggested deleting a log based on the "quality" of said log was the OP, and even he said that he'd sent an email inviting a re-log."

Just to clarify, I'll reword what I posted to more closely convey what I meant generically: "If a cache owner were to either delete a cacher's log or email them to tell them to edit their log because it didn't meet their standards that would be the height of hubris."

 

The OP suggested possibly deleting and/or emailing but I can't imagine anyone who would do either.

 

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post... I was not attempting to clarify what you said... I was attempting to clarify what this thread was saying. Some people have apparently gotten the idea from this thread that several folks here were suggesting that it was OK to delete the logs. That is simply not the case.

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Deleting a cacher's log or emailing them to tell them to edit their log because it doesn't meet your standards is the height of hubris.

 

Just to clarify, (without re-reading the entire thread, I can't be 100% certain of this, but to the best of my knowledge,) the only person that even suggested deleting a log based on the "quality" of said log was the OP, and even he said that he'd sent an email inviting a re-log.

 

Let me imagine playing the game this way.

 

I'm going to lump emailing for a re-log in the same basket as deleting a log. I'm calling the basket "Things I Could Do When People Don't Appreciate My Hard Work". We'll come back to the basket in a sec...

 

For me, just the finding of my cache is thanks enough. Yeah, I did some work hiding it and filling it with swag and getting permission from the land owners, etc. So let's say I've done 10 units of WORK to get this cache in place.

 

Now along comes Mr. Hunter and he find my cache. Yeah, he did some work too. He looked up caches in his area, he loaded up the coords to his Magarme GPSr, he printed or loaded up the pages to his PDA, he went out into the world and he used his eyeballs and found the cache, wrote his name in the log, went home and logged the cache at the website. Let's assume that he did... 6 units of WORK.

 

Here I am sitting at my computer and I see the logs roll in for the day and Mr. Hunter has left me a "TNLNTFTC!" log on my cache page. I do some deductions, a little math, and I determine that Mr. Hunter has not matched units of WORK with me. So I reach into my basket to pull out one of my options...

 

<POP!>

 

Seriously? This is what you guys consider fun? Telling people how wrong they are and how they don't meet your standards?

 

I can understand not agreeing with somebody, but you're actually sending a message to them "what you have done did not make me happy and I wish you would change it so that I can be happy".

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Knowschad-"I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post... I was not attempting to clarify what you said... I was attempting to clarify what this thread was saying. Some people have apparently gotten the idea from this thread that several folks here were suggesting that it was OK to delete the logs. That is simply not the case."
I believe you're reading something into my post that just isn't there. I haven't said that anyone, other than the OP, has suggested deleting posts. Reading the thread you hill see that posters, other than the OP, have said they disagree with log deletions based on perceived quality. However he, and others, have remarked about sending an email to "educate" loggers on the proper way to log their caches. Either is a very bad idea and that is what I said.
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Knowschad-"I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post... I was not attempting to clarify what you said... I was attempting to clarify what this thread was saying. Some people have apparently gotten the idea from this thread that several folks here were suggesting that it was OK to delete the logs. That is simply not the case."
I believe you're reading something into my post that just isn't there. I haven't said that anyone, other than the OP, has suggested deleting posts. Reading the thread you hill see that posters, other than the OP, have said they disagree with log deletions based on perceived quality. However he, and others, have remarked about sending an email to "educate" loggers on the proper way to log their caches. Either is a very bad idea and that is what I said.

 

LOL! No, I believe that you are misreading my post :(

 

I simply quoted what you said in your post to clarify the entire thread. Please do not take it personally.

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Deleting a cacher's log or emailing them to tell them to edit their log because it doesn't meet your standards is the height of hubris.
Just to clarify, (without re-reading the entire thread, I can't be 100% certain of this, but to the best of my knowledge,) the only person that even suggested deleting a log based on the "quality" of said log was the OP, and even he said that he'd sent an email inviting a re-log.
Let me imagine playing the game this way.

 

I'm going to lump emailing for a re-log in the same basket as deleting a log. I'm calling the basket "Things I Could Do When People Don't Appreciate My Hard Work". We'll come back to the basket in a sec...

 

For me, just the finding of my cache is thanks enough. Yeah, I did some work hiding it and filling it with swag and getting permission from the land owners, etc. So let's say I've done 10 units of WORK to get this cache in place.

 

Now along comes Mr. Hunter and he find my cache. Yeah, he did some work too. He looked up caches in his area, he loaded up the coords to his Magarme GPSr, he printed or loaded up the pages to his PDA, he went out into the world and he used his eyeballs and found the cache, wrote his name in the log, went home and logged the cache at the website. Let's assume that he did... 6 units of WORK.

 

Here I am sitting at my computer and I see the logs roll in for the day and Mr. Hunter has left me a "TNLNTFTC!" log on my cache page. I do some deductions, a little math, and I determine that Mr. Hunter has not matched units of WORK with me. So I reach into my basket to pull out one of my options...

 

<POP!>

 

Seriously? This is what you guys consider fun? Telling people how wrong they are and how they don't meet your standards?

 

I can understand not agreeing with somebody, but you're actually sending a message to them "what you have done did not make me happy and I wish you would change it so that I can be happy".

I like your line of thought.

 

It appears that several people believe that in hiding a cache, they are making a gift to individual people. They then get upset when each individual finder doesn't put the same amount of effort into logging the cache as these hiders put into placing it.

 

I think that a more apt way to look at this is that the hider put an amount of effort into hiding the cache for the community. If the community doesn't give the same amount back in logs (cumulatively), then the cache owner should reevaluate the cache and his personal expectations. Those are the things that likely are broken, not the community.

Edited by sbell111
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Knowschad-"LOL! No, I believe that you are misreading my post. :( gif

 

I simply quoted what you said in your post to clarify the entire thread. Please do not take it personally."

I'm not taking it personally but you're making it appear that the only poster who understands what the thread is about is you and that certainly isn't the case. Others appear to understand what I have said. I apologize if you find my posts not up to your standards. Please don't delete my posts or email me telling me how to improve them! :(
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Knowschad-"LOL! No, I believe that you are misreading my post. :( gif

 

I simply quoted what you said in your post to clarify the entire thread. Please do not take it personally."

I'm not taking it personally but you're making it appear that the only poster who understands what the thread is about is you and that certainly isn't the case. Others appear to understand what I have said. I apologize if you find my posts not up to your standards. Please don't delete my posts or email me telling me how to improve them! :(

 

I think I am the referenced person who had the impression that many cache owners felt it was ok to delete logs. I gleaned that impression from this thread, from the thread on deleting logs used for a challenge cache and from last month's ALR thread. So it was not merely this thread, though this one contributed to my impression and fears. I have since learned that log deletions are relatively rare and so I'm no longer sitting up in bed biting my nails and moaning (which is a great relief to my beloved since he can now get some sleep). :)

 

Carolyn

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I think that a more apt way to look at this is that the hider put an amount of effort into hiding the cache for the community. If the community doesn't give the same amount back in logs (cumulatively), then the cache owner should reevaluate the cache and his personal expectations. Those are the things that likely are broken, not the community.

 

In a perfect world, all caches would be unique, exciting experiences and the folks that found those caches would write of their experience finding the cache. The only time I think a cache owner should delete a log is when they have reason to believe that the person did not actually find the cache.

 

That being said, I also think a group of 50 people doing a cache machine, all writing "Portland Cache Machine #175" is a MAJOR annoyance. Should those be deleted? No...

 

Perhaps the answer is giving an option on the website to mark the cache found without entering any text. The find count would increase, but the online cache logs would not get flooded with completely worthless cache logs. When I'm out in the field looking at the last 5 logs and they're all "TFTH", that's completely worthless. The only reason they write it is because they are forced to write *something*...

 

To sum up, the suggestion is: Allow cachers to log a cache as found without any notes

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But I'm not going to write:

 

"The scenery of this particular store's front parking lot was quite exquisite, the blacktop looked like it was paved yesterday and the stripes were so pretty all in a row, looked like an angel laid them down from on high... You could hardly notice where the truckers park overnight despite the trash strewn about, and if you can hold your gag reflex, the odor of something dying under the bush next to GZ is hardly a distraction. The muggles were a real surprise but we cleverly used the georig as cover...Thanks for bringing me to this special and unique place"

 

 

oh, but you SHOULD!

 

it's great fun.

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...

I think that a more apt way to look at this is that the hider put an amount of effort into hiding the cache for the community. If the community doesn't give the same amount back in logs (cumulatively), then the cache owner should reevaluate the cache and his personal expectations. Those are the things that likely are broken, not the community.

That's reasonable. However there is a possiblity that it's the community thats broken. Then what?

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Knowschad-"LOL! No, I believe that you are misreading my post. :( gif

 

I simply quoted what you said in your post to clarify the entire thread. Please do not take it personally."

 

I'm not taking it personally but you're making it appear that the only poster who understands what the thread is about is you and that certainly isn't the case. Others appear to understand what I have said. I apologize if you find my posts not up to your standards. Please don't delete my posts or email me telling me how to improve them! :(

 

That (the bolded part) was never my intention. A good part of this, however, was about me.

 

Hey, can't we all try to lower the angst here just a bit? I'm trying to do my part.

Edited by knowschad
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The bits where I had fun with Unspecified Level of Friendship With This Chad Person were pretty much no added value to the thread but I enjoyed them.

 

Yes, lower angst is good especially when it appears pretty much that most are on the same page and even those who aren't aren't on the same page as the OP :(

 

Pretty clear to this point

 

Deleting logs for quality - not permitted

Enjoying quality logs - normal

Writing quality logs - optional

Enjoying that someone has found your cache - almost universal

Annoyance at TFTC logs - varied

Reasons for logging and expectations thereof - still contentious.... oops!

Getting out and enjoying places via finding and placing caches - priceless (couldn't resist)

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But I'm not going to write:

 

"The scenery of this particular store's front parking lot was quite exquisite, the blacktop looked like it was paved yesterday and the stripes were so pretty all in a row, looked like an angel laid them down from on high... You could hardly notice where the truckers park overnight despite the trash strewn about, and if you can hold your gag reflex, the odor of something dying under the bush next to GZ is hardly a distraction. The muggles were a real surprise but we cleverly used the georig as cover...Thanks for bringing me to this special and unique place"

 

 

oh, but you SHOULD!

 

it's great fun.

OMG, spit water out the nose following the link... That is awesome. I gotta start doing that!!!! :(

 

Geez, I got tears in my eyes from this.

 

I bow down to you! :(

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... When I'm out in the field looking at the last 5 logs and they're all "TFTH", that's completely worthless. ...
I disagree. Those logs have just as much worth as a bunch of unique non-spoiler logs. The let you know that the cache was available on that date.

 

... I think that a more apt way to look at this is that the hider put an amount of effort into hiding the cache for the community. If the community doesn't give the same amount back in logs (cumulatively), then the cache owner should reevaluate the cache and his personal expectations. Those are the things that likely are broken, not the community.
That's reasonable. However there is a possiblity that it's the community thats broken. Then what?
If the hider comes to the conclusion that the community is broken because no one is living up to his expectations, I would argue that the community is fine and the cache owner is out of step. Perhaps his expectations need adjustment. Edited by sbell111
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...If the hider comes to the conclusion that the community is broken because no one is living up to his expectations, I would argue that the community is fine and the cache owner is out of step. Perhaps his expectations need adjustment.

 

That's where you started.

 

I used to belong to a home owners association. They worried about barking dogs. It was outside their scope. The community was broken there. The highway district accepted a broken drainaged system for maintaince by my HOA. My HOA didn't force the issue and had to pay for a warranty repair against my advice. My community was broken there. My community voted to move halloween to another day then expressed shock that most folks didn't honor the new day. My community was broken there.

 

Broken communities happen. Especially in an era of feel good non solutions and the entitlement attitude. "How dare you lower my property value by having that project 67 Camaro in your driveway and painting your house a color that doesnt' match the drab personalities of the Architectural Controll Committe"

 

There is such a thing as the Tyranny of the masses that gets in the way of freedom. (or perhaps it's the tyranny of the well organized PC crowd since few I know ever agree with most of the BS that gets handed down yet it comes from somewhere).

 

Of course you have been saying "If you have the same problem with everone, then the real problem is you" You being the cache owner in this case.

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My solution was to hide more caches that "power cachers" avoid.

Kit, I like the way you think.

If you hide a P&G, expect P&G type logs.

If you hide something that requires actual effort to get to, you will likely be rewarded with longer logs.

It's been working for me for years.

I agree with both of you, but what frustrates me (and what spurred me to write the post that Kit linked to) is when you have a fantastic cache, one of the best in your area, and you get the "Found with Lunkhead. TFTC". :(

My question is....

 

So what?

You've not hidden a cache, so I guess you really wouldn't know what is like, huh? :(

 

So what if he has or has not hid any - that does not diminish his point of view of which I happen to agree with.

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(snip) It's VERY annoying when I go to read the log and it's "#100/293848372 Today. TFTH" I would never delete their log, but it is extremely annoying. I agree with others in this thread: The more difficult, the better the logs. You get out of this what you put into it.

 

I am sorry but you have a broken annoyance button. :(

 

Like if too short and has too many problems for such a minor (made out to be a mole hill) items as a TFTC log. You have to be kidding me - are any of you even thinking?

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My solution was to hide more caches that "power cachers" avoid.

Kit, I like the way you think.

If you hide a P&G, expect P&G type logs.

If you hide something that requires actual effort to get to, you will likely be rewarded with longer logs.

It's been working for me for years.

I agree with both of you, but what frustrates me (and what spurred me to write the post that Kit linked to) is when you have a fantastic cache, one of the best in your area, and you get the "Found with Lunkhead. TFTC". :(

My question is....

 

So what?

You've not hidden a cache, so I guess you really wouldn't know what is like, huh? :)

 

So what if he has or has not hid any - that does not diminish his point of view of which I happen to agree with.

We've already hashed this out. Thanks for reading the thread Frank. :(

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My question is....

 

So what?

You've not hidden a cache, so I guess you really wouldn't know what is like, huh? :(

 

9Key,

 

Don't feed the troll! After 85 park and grabs, no hides, and nearly every one of his posts being "trollish," you shouldn't waste your time with him/her.

 

GOF - I found one (you reading this thread?) here is an example of someone using numbers to justify some kind of superiority. I regress on my gitbuff posts on the subject - you are absolutely right. I was wrong.

 

So the guy is a troll because he is not qualified to speak as he is inferior for not having the stats of the great ones. Poppy cock! The guy is 100% right on - if so called bad logs are offensive ya'al who are offended with them have a serious pride problem.

 

Man, GOF I thought I had a good argument going on gitbuff!

Edited by Frank Broughton
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My solution was to hide more caches that "power cachers" avoid.

Kit, I like the way you think.

If you hide a P&G, expect P&G type logs.

If you hide something that requires actual effort to get to, you will likely be rewarded with longer logs.

It's been working for me for years.

I agree with both of you, but what frustrates me (and what spurred me to write the post that Kit linked to) is when you have a fantastic cache, one of the best in your area, and you get the "Found with Lunkhead. TFTC". :)

My question is....

 

So what?

You've not hidden a cache, so I guess you really wouldn't know what is like, huh? :D

 

So what if he has or has not hid any - that does not diminish his point of view of which I happen to agree with.

We've already hashed this out. Thanks for reading the thread Frank. :(

 

Okay - I need to shut up my yap - I am not being nice today! :(

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GOF - I found one (you reading this thread?) here is an example of someone using numbers to justify some kind of superiority. I regress on my gitbuff posts on the subject - you are absolutely right. I was wrong. [/b]

 

So the guy is a troll because he is not qualified to speak as he is inferior for not having the stats of the great ones. Poppy cock! The guy is 100% right on - if so called bad logs are offensive ya'al who are offended with them have a serious pride problem.

 

Man, GOF I thought I had a good argument going on gitbuff!

 

I took it as you did.

Soemone somehow stating they were superior based on some data gleaned. I can't imagine they are a troll though because trolls usually act superior and use info gleaned as an attack...

 

~LOL~

 

BTW, I could have taken offense but I realized that someone who has over 2000 forum posts is clearly a superior person.

 

Thanks for agreeing with me on the OP issue. Thanks for speaking up on your position

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...If the hider comes to the conclusion that the community is broken because no one is living up to his expectations, I would argue that the community is fine and the cache owner is out of step. Perhaps his expectations need adjustment.

 

That's where you started.

 

... Broken communities happen. Especially in an era of feel good non solutions and the entitlement attitude. ...

 

Of course you have been saying "If you have the same problem with everone, then the real problem is you" You being the cache owner in this case.

Of course, the irony is that it is those that expect others to write logs solely to please them that really have the entitlement attitude.
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But I'm not going to write:

 

"The scenery of this particular store's front parking lot was quite exquisite, the blacktop looked like it was paved yesterday and the stripes were so pretty all in a row, looked like an angel laid them down from on high... You could hardly notice where the truckers park overnight despite the trash strewn about, and if you can hold your gag reflex, the odor of something dying under the bush next to GZ is hardly a distraction. The muggles were a real surprise but we cleverly used the georig as cover...Thanks for bringing me to this special and unique place"

NRV = No Redeming Value

 

Oh, man, I wish you would. What a hilarious log! You could turn some LPC into a "three wolf moon" cache. ; )

 

Edited to add: I see that flask beat me to it. ROFL -- terrific log, on both your parts! : )

Edited by Jackalgirl
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I think it would be a shame to have a log deleted becuase the cache owner deemed it "poor".

 

Let's tell people that that they didn't really find our caches becuase we disagree with their competence with the english language. Let's tell little Billy that he doesn't get the smiley becuase, well, we think he's too stupid to soothe our egos with grandiose descriptions of our cache.

 

Many others have given good reasons I don't need to repeat - just add me to the list of people who think this idea stinks.

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To sum up, the suggestion is: Allow cachers to log a cache as found without any notes

 

That's actually a reasonable option. You should make a pitch in the website forum.

 

In a perfect world but then someone would whine complain that people don't write when they log a find. And someone will come along and ask if its OK to delete logs if the finder didn't write anything.

 

Best to leave things as they are.

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I seem to be getting a number of poor logs e.g. Found with XYZ, or Found It! I've decided to delete these but do send a polite message saying why it's been deleted and they're welcome to resubmit with a log that includes interest.

 

I'm not going to read the replies that follow this OP, I'm sure they've been pretty dissident to your train of thought.

 

Short logs that don't praise your cache are more the norm than the exception, so try to get used to it.

 

I've got some caches that usually get pretty good logs, some of them very verbose logs. I enjoy those. Then along comes a cacher who writes "sl" for every one of my caches he finds. That's fine by me. He found it, made note that he signed the log, and that's A-OK. Anything written beyond that is gravy.

 

Lighten up, enjoy the reports of found caches, and don't sweat the small stuff.

 

Could this be because every other log he wrote on your caches got deleted?

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To sum up, the suggestion is: Allow cachers to log a cache as found without any notes

 

That's actually a reasonable option. You should make a pitch in the website forum.

 

i'm against this option simply because people in general are lazy. given the opportunity to write nothing at all, many more people would jump at it. if they have to write SOMETHING, we have a better likelihood that they will write something decent.

 

not a huge likelihood, but better at least.

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To sum up, the suggestion is: Allow cachers to log a cache as found without any notes

 

That's actually a reasonable option. You should make a pitch in the website forum.

 

i'm against this option simply because people in general are lazy. given the opportunity to write nothing at all, many more people would jump at it. if they have to write SOMETHING, we have a better likelihood that they will write something decent.

 

not a huge likelihood, but better at least.

 

I'd prefer to see a Forum option to post without writing anything.

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I'd prefer to see a Forum option to post without writing anything.

 

Given the number of posts I see with nothing, I believe this option has already been implemented.

 

Jim

 

Posts or logs?

There IS a way to make a log entry that is blank. I don't want to give out the secret and I woud never do that while posting a log entry but its very easy.

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Posts or logs?

There IS a way to make a log entry that is blank. I don't want to give out the secret and I woud never do that while posting a log entry but its very easy.

jholly means posts - either posts with nothing useful in them, and / or duplicate posts. I suspect the former :)

 

But now you have everyone all interested and I suspect a whole bunch of experimenting is going on now. Do you mean a log entry that shows up with nothing in it, or do you mean a log entry that will increase the Visits count but does not appear in the log section? Former I can think of a few possibilities, the latter would be a good hack.

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Posts or logs?

There IS a way to make a log entry that is blank. I don't want to give out the secret and I woud never do that while posting a log entry but its very easy.

jholly means posts - either posts with nothing useful in them, and / or duplicate posts. I suspect the former :)

 

But now you have everyone all interested and I suspect a whole bunch of experimenting is going on now. Do you mean a log entry that shows up with nothing in it, or do you mean a log entry that will increase the Visits count but does not appear in the log section? Former I can think of a few possibilities, the latter would be a good hack.

 

Yes, we were talking about forum posts, although the idea evolved from a suggestion about allowing blank logs.

 

Could to "blank" logs using white on white text, but it would still show in emails unless you had an email client that accepted BBCode. I've seen people use nothing more than a period. But otherwise, I'm curious, too.

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Posts or logs?

There IS a way to make a log entry that is blank. I don't want to give out the secret and I woud never do that while posting a log entry but its very easy.

jholly means posts - either posts with nothing useful in them, and / or duplicate posts. I suspect the former :)

 

But now you have everyone all interested and I suspect a whole bunch of experimenting is going on now. Do you mean a log entry that shows up with nothing in it, or do you mean a log entry that will increase the Visits count but does not appear in the log section? Former I can think of a few possibilities, the latter would be a good hack.

 

I mean a log entry that shows up with nothing in it. The way to do it is remarkably simple.

I would NEVER attempt to hack the website. (but I could if I wanted to. ~WEG~)

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