Buying in a presale...

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

OK, I'm going to post my opinion here since I have seen this topic raised in several other threads, and I have no input on the particulars of those situations. For those of you who are paying for coins in a presale, before they are minted, you are taking a risk with your money. Let's really look at what a presale is all about.

 

My Opinion:

 

"A presale is a way of the coin maker obtaining the capitol to invest in producing a coin. These are done by people who would like to have a coin produced, but are not willing or able to invest their own money in the project. They have a presale to get other people to take on the risk of investing in a coin project. Basically the buyers are buying a "share" in the final result of the project. It's exactly like giving someone money to start a company. If the company fails, you may lose your money. Unfortunatly, there will never be more profit for the investors than the coins they paid for, instead of getting a share of the profits."

 

I know there are flaws in this viewpoint, but if you're willing to pay for a coin in advance that isn't even minted yet, be prepared to lose your money.

 

As a side note, maybe Groundspeak shouldn't allow presales to be announced in these forums, since what they boil down to is a solicitation of an investment in a project that is only in the design phase at the time of payment.

 

Please don't hate me or flame me, that's just the way I see how they seem to work.

Edited September 20, 2008 by WRITE SHOP ROBERT

[+Rockin Roddy]

WSR, I agree with some of the points you made...but this simply isn't true for everyone!

 

There are good pre-sales and then there are those "other" pre-sales.

 

Besides that, Groundspeak has no control over a personal website doing pre-sales, so this wouldn't help much! Pinning a buyer beware thread to the top might help a bit, but not for those who don't frequent the forums. Truly, nothing can be done to stop this from happening that I can see.

 

Unless paypal were to step in....maybe it's time to take this matter to paypal? If an underhanded company's paypal account was shut down, no more money being taken fraudulently! Might also send a warning to others...no paypal, no business...or at least greatly diminished business!

Edited September 20, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

 

Pinning a buyer beware thread to the top might help a bit, but not for those who don't frequent the forums. Truly, nothing can be done to stop this from happening that I can see.

 

If GS were willing to do this, then maybe they should be willing to protect their own name by not selling codes to problem companies, and not approving their artwork. They can weild power over a company in these ways.

 

No codes = No Company.

No art approval = No Company.

 

Despite the fact that some "Good Companies" are using the presale tool, if those companies go down (for any reason) then the prebuyer's money will be lost. I'd guess than many of these "Companies" are not operating with a business liscense?? Are they even really companies??

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

Pinning a buyer beware thread to the top might help a bit, but not for those who don't frequent the forums. Truly, nothing can be done to stop this from happening that I can see.

 

If GS were willing to do this, then maybe they should be willing to protect their own name by not selling codes to problem companies, and not approving their artwork. They can weild power over a company in these ways.

 

No codes = No Company.

No art approval = No Company.

 

Despite the fact that some "Good Companies" are using the presale tool, if those companies go down (for any reason) then the prebuyer's money will be lost. I'd guess than many of these "Companies" are not operating with a business liscense?? Are they even really companies??

 

No codes didn't and hasn't stopped the pre-sales on Socal....they still advertise and take the money even without the codes (as I'm understanding it)!

 

The no art approval might help, but then, might not!

Edited September 20, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[ELTADA]

You have some valid points...I have been wary of presales and am doing my own research to see which "companies" I feel I can trust with my money.

 

But, having said this, there is a flip side to this that I wanted to point out. With some companies/designs, presales allow anyone who wants a coin, to get a coin. You don't have to get up at weird hours and compete with faster fingers on faster connections to get a coin.

 

Presales, if nothing else, equalize (to a certain degree) the current demand/supply while still being a valuable to the collector after the sale closes. (vs. open minting of a coin version)

 

Just another perspective...

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

 

No codes didn't and hasn't stopped the pre-sales on Socal....they still advertise and take the money even without the codes (as I'm understanding it)!

 

The no art approval might help, but then, might not!

They may be able to continue for a while with codes thay have already bought, but they will run out.

 

Let's try to avoid turning this into a duplicate of the socal topic already going. That is only one of the topics that has had me thinking about this. This thread is started to discuss the merits and function of the presale tool.

[+larry739]

I think presales are great myself.

 

I just cannot make myself do the timed buying routine, usually because I never end up with anything but lots of frustration. I do not mind at all financing a new coin project if I think it is a good one. I normally will buy 5. I keep one activate one and trade or sell the rest to underwrite my coin obsession. Because many people feel like you I have lots of customers for the three I have to get rid of later and they are scarce since usually you could only get them if you did the presale. I would say it is a great way to get coins you may want if you are willing to wait for them. I have never lost money on a presale.

 

I do not think Groundspeak should be the policeman here and do not think it is a good idea to suggest they disallow this activity. That would be a good way to see a competing service start.

Edited September 20, 2008 by larry739

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

Of course GS has no control over whether a vendor does a presale, but they could restrict coin sale links and annuncements to what is currently available. Maybe not a good idea. I don't know.

 

Buying coins in a presale is like buying seeds, some may not sprout.

[+MustangJoni]

Instead of talking about banning pre-sales, which isn't going to happen, why don't we discuss what to watch out for.

 

There are vendors out there that do a fantastic job on pre-sales: Coins & Pins, Hogwild Stuff, Dorkfish Designs to name a few.

 

The companies that have done pre-sales that have later been complained about all them have done things that made me think "Beware"

 

Here is what I watch out for:

1. A reputation for delivering coins in a timely manner.

2. Have the invested in a sample? Or are you only buying based on art? If so, this company has nothing invested in that coin.

3. Does the company give you a date to expect the coins? If not you could be waiting a while.

4. Does the customer service you receive from this company seem more combative than helpful? Everything is someone else's fault, and nothing is their fault.

5. Does the company come out with pre-sale after pre-sale, not delivering the last one before starting the next one?

6. Does the company come in and update the thread? Especially if there is a delay.

 

These are a few things I look for. I have yet to be burned by one of these rouge sellers.

 

Does anybody else have anything they look for before purchasing a coin through pre-sale?

[+uktim]

OK, I'm going to post my opinion here since I have seen this topic raised in several other threads, and I have no input on the particulars of those situations. For those of you who are paying for coins in a presale, before they are minted, you are taking a risk with your money. Let's really look at what a presale is all about.

 

A presale is a way of the coin maker obtaining the capitol to invest in producing a coin. These are done by people who would like to have a coin produced, but are not willing or able to invest their own money in the project. They have a presale to get other people to take on the risk of investing in a coin project. Basically the buyers are buying a "share" in the final result of the project. It's exactly like giving someone money to start a company. If the company fails, you may lose your money. Unfortunatly, there will never be more profit for the investors than the coins they paid for, instead of getting a share of the profits.

 

I know there are flaws in this viewpoint, but if you're willing to pay for a coin in advance that isn't even minted yet, be prepared to lose your money.

 

As a side note, maybe Groundspeak shouldn't allow presales to be announced in these forums, since what they boil down to is a solicitation of an investment in a project that is only in the design phase at the time of payment.

 

Please don't hate me or flame me, that's just the way I see how they seem to work.

 

Is it correct to say that the cast iron definition of pre sale is a coin that hasn't yet been ordered and paid for by the seller? Are there any definitions laid down anywhere?

 

Coins that I bill as presale have been ordered, paid for and a delivery date is set. Either I'm using the wrong term for this type of sale or the broad brush with which you're painting this doom and gloom picture will have an impact on myself and others operating in a simliar way

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Life:

You take a risk each time you wake up.

You take a risk when you drive on the freeway.

You take risks of all kinds everyday that have become part of your everyday life.

 

Risk is a concept that denotes the precise probability of specific eventualities. Technically, the notion of risk is independent from the notion of value, and as such, eventualities may have both beneficial and adverse consequences. However in general usage the convention is to focus only on potential negative impact to some characteristic of value that may arise from a future event.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

Is it correct to say that the cast iron definition of pre sale is a coin that hasn't yet been ordered and paid for by the seller? Are there any definitions laid down anywhere?

 

Coins that I bill as presale have been ordered, paid for and a delivery date is set. Either I'm using the wrong term for this type of sale or the broad brush with which you're painting this doom and gloom picture will have an impact on myself and others operating in a simliar way

Maybe I'm seeing them the wrong way. I thought they were being sold before they were ordered and produced. Maybe there are people doing it both ways. Your way sounds great and responsible.

[+LadeBear68]

Great response MustangJoni. I agree that there are several vendors that do a wonderful job of selling coins via a pre-sale, however, I think you need to watch out for new sellers that start out by doing a pre-sale because they can't afford to make their own coin. I also think updating the community is very important so people don't think you ran off with their money.

[+MustangJoni]

Great response MustangJoni. I agree that there are several vendors that do a wonderful job of selling coins via a pre-sale, however, I think you need to watch out for new sellers that start out by doing a pre-sale because they can't afford to make their own coin. I also think updating the community is very important so people don't think you ran off with their money.

 

This is how most companies start out. I remember when Geocoin Club and The Caching Place both did pre-sales.

 

There is a new company that I've bought a couple of coins from that have done a great job. LillySue.

 

They are on their 4th coin, and have done a great job keeping everybody informed of the status of their coins, and delivering their coins.

 

WTG LillySue!

[ELTADA]

I think there are different versions of presale.

 

1. There are companies that design the art and then sell coins.

 

2. There are companies that design the art, have samples made and approx. delivery date set and then sell the coins.

 

3. There are companies that design the art, have samples made, order the coins, set the approximate delivery date and then sell the coins.

 

Though I am not sure what the advantage for a vendor would be to do number 3. I think I would just wait until the coins are in hand and not call it a pre-sale in that case...but if you outlined in your pre-sale page or forum entry that you fall into #3 then at least buyers would know that the coins are on the way.

 

Obviously as MustangJoni pointed out (great list btw!), number 2 and 3 are more desirable from a buyer's perspective as it shows investment on the part of the vendor.

[+geocachingdragon]

I have only been around a couple of years but there has been a long history of presales in the forums.. Before it was people trying to raise the cash to produce a coin There has been some really sorted tales from these days ...These days there are a lot of company's that help in new coin designs so that is not needed , Before it was We will make 250 coins an see how it goes. The market changed and sometimes might not sell everything and the company or coin person had to eat a few coins. Or demand was so great and you missed out on a great coin . Or crashed a few web sites and people miss out.

 

The way the company,s that are mention by Mustang Joni do it is not the same presale it is more of a advance order . You go to the store make your purchase its made and delivered on a set time frame. Just like ordering a couch . They now how many to make and every one who wants one has the opportunity to buy one. Its a good service a bit longer wait but if with a good presale or advance order program everyone is happy..

 

If there are no samples or no history i would beware.

[YemonYime]

*in a booming, echoing voice* CAVEAT EMPTOOOOOOOOOR......

[+LadeBear68]

Great response MustangJoni. I agree that there are several vendors that do a wonderful job of selling coins via a pre-sale, however, I think you need to watch out for new sellers that start out by doing a pre-sale because they can't afford to make their own coin. I also think updating the community is very important so people don't think you ran off with their money.

 

This is how most companies start out. I remember when Geocoin Club and The Caching Place both did pre-sales.

 

There is a new company that I've bought a couple of coins from that have done a great job. LillySue.

 

They are on their 4th coin, and have done a great job keeping everybody informed of the status of their coins, and delivering their coins.

 

WTG LillySue!

 

And there are at least three if not four individuals who did pre-sales that now can't fund the project or are letting people hang on whether they will ever receive their coins.

[+tsunrisebey]

Here are a couple threads to read over that have all touched on this subject... I know there are more. I've discussed this issue until I'm blue in the face.

 

Just one comment as a person who does not do presales and doesn't like them: Groundspeak shouldn't have to 'ban' presales because of a few bad apples. Bad behavior and business practices are the fault of the company doing the presales if things go wrong. You invest your money, you should be prepared to lose it, sad as it is.

 

There have been a number of signs and behaviors exhibited by certain vendors that have repeated themselves during each sale (dies broke, mint problems, blah, blah, blah) wake up people! While that does happen with complicated coins or during Chinese New Year, how come the majority of vendors don't keep having the same issues?

 

Trust a business because they have proven themselves over and over, not because you like the person behind the business or think they are honest. I always wonder why people need a boulder dropped on their foot to finally wake up to what is going on vhen all along they've been throwing small rocks at you?

 

Ok, off to my football game, have fun here

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...hl=reservations

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...hl=reservations

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...8&hl=prefer

[+Droo]

Is it correct to say that the cast iron definition of pre sale is a coin that hasn't yet been ordered and paid for by the seller? Are there any definitions laid down anywhere?

 

Coins that I bill as presale have been ordered, paid for and a delivery date is set. Either I'm using the wrong term for this type of sale or the broad brush with which you're painting this doom and gloom picture will have an impact on myself and others operating in a simliar way

Maybe I'm seeing them the wrong way. I thought they were being sold before they were ordered and produced. Maybe there are people doing it both ways. Your way sounds great and responsible.

 

Pre-sale encompass all sales for product not yet received from the factory. So that could mean anything from the order not yet placed with the factory to even the design not yet finalized.

 

Edit to add: I just hate the notion of pre-sale as an investment in the company and therefore should be prepared to lose the money as any investor is programmed to do. It's not an investment. No dividends are paid out, no discount no share in the profits. Those pay offs are what compel an investor to risk losing their money.

 

Pre-sales are sales contracts for product not yet available. It's a contract to deliver that product and a paid guarantee to receive it. If it doesn't get delivered within a reasonable time frame it's called FRAUD. I don't care how many grandmothers died or legs were broken that impeded the fulfillment of the pre-sale contracts. If you don't deliver you've de-frauded your customers. And I believe it to be quite fair to publish the names of those guilty of not delivering on their promises to honour their contracts. Call me a hard a** but after seeing the current debacle with the financial institutions I have no patience with Mom and Pop shops thinking they're Bear Stearns (or Enron, WorldCom, AIG, Global Crossing, Lehman Bros etc).

Edited September 20, 2008 by Droo

[+Boom!pa]

I have only been around a couple of years but there has been a long history of presales in the forums.. Before it was people trying to raise the cash to produce a coin There has been some really sorted tales from these days ...These days there are a lot of company's that help in new coin designs so that is not needed , Before it was We will make 250 coins an see how it goes. The market changed and sometimes might not sell everything and the company or coin person had to eat a few coins. Or demand was so great and you missed out on a great coin . Or crashed a few web sites and people miss out.

 

The way the company,s that are mention by Mustang Joni do it is not the same presale it is more of a advance order . You go to the store make your purchase its made and delivered on a set time frame. Just like ordering a couch . They now how many to make and every one who wants one has the opportunity to buy one. Its a good service a bit longer wait but if with a good presale or advance order program everyone is happy..

 

If there are no samples or no history i would beware.

 

Alot of these comments can be true but not of all vendors or people who enjoy making coins. As I have done pre-sales (and never to raise the money to actually buy the coins!) and maybe lucky for me have never had any major delays at the mint or ehatever ther problems could arise. I think you do take a chance when you pre-pay but if your not willing to take that chance (remember they aren't all huge risks) then don't pre-buy anything. No one forces anyone to pre-buy anything.

 

Regarding samples, on our current coin we do not have samples made because due to it being a halloween coin, we wanted to make sure we could try to get it to people BEFORE halloween and making samples lengthens the process by 2 weeks.(though we normally would go with samples first as having a picture of the physical coin helps sell the coin)

 

My comments are not to rag on people who rag on pre-sales so much as to defend the sellers who have pre-sold and kept their word. I say, use your own comfort levels to assess the risk (checking facts such as email responses, history in selling, etc) and make your own choice. And remember, that not all of us are out there to rip you off.

[avroair]

A presale is a way of the coin maker obtaining the capitol to invest in producing a coin. These are done by people who would like to have a coin produced, but are not willing or able to invest their own money in the project.

 

Sounds a lot like the current financial markets!

 

I buy on presales and don't think the idea of them is bad, but recent actions by multiple individuals or vendors has soured me to this idea for geocoins.

 

I still buy presales from a couple vendors I feel reputable, but if someone doesn't have to money to make a coin, there are other ways to get it done, one such option is partnering with one of the main vendors rather than trying to do all the selling and minting yourself.

[+Wandering Vikings]

There is a new company that I've bought a couple of coins from that have done a great job. LillySue.

 

They are on their 4th coin, and have done a great job keeping everybody informed of the status of their coins, and delivering their coins.

 

WTG LillySue!

First off, thank you Joni for the kind words and confidence in our company!

This is an important topic and we felt the need to weigh in with our opinion...

There are a couple main things that come to mind on with the current controversy on pre-sales.

 

1. It seems that it has become a case of one (or two) bad apples spoiling the barrel. There are a few well documented threads on here of unscrupulous companies who have taken money and disappeared without honoring their obligations to their customers. These companies (IMHO) should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. It is fraud and theft. Period. They took funds in exchange for a product that was not delivered. That is illegal and should be handled as such.

 

2. The second issue muddling these waters is established companies that are having delivery delays. Some have been huge, months long delays and these seem to be happening with a little more frequency. It was a whole lot easier for us to be smug on this one, until we were hit with it! We are dealing right now with the issue of having received a coin order that had 90% of the LE's unsellable. The mint is remaking them, but for what ever reason is having issues getting the coins right, and we are faced with the ramifications. This coin was offered on a pre-sale, but has been completely paid for. The delay has nothing to do with funding- it is entirely a production issue. We have tried to do everything within our power to deal with this- emailing the mint daily, shipped all orders we could, pulled the problem coins from sale until the corrected coins are available, sent individual emails to those who were affected, offered refunds and shipped partial orders for all who requested it. There are some people who took us up on our refund offer, but most have been willing to wait. We are hoping that the coin production problems are resolved quickly, but the feeling of helplessness has definitely hit us. Even though this is a delay that we had no control over, we are responsible for our business and any delay is a direct reflection on our public reputation.

 

3. As has been said on other forums, communication is the key! Pre-sales are a crucial part of our business, so we make every effort to keep our customers informed during every step of the process. We post anticipated delivery dates on the website and update it every time we can, send newsletters and emails when needed, etc. To the best of our knowledge our customers are happy with the way we do business and satisfied with our coins. Why punish the companies that *are* responsible business owners for the few that are not? Take a couple minutes to look into a new company that is offering to sell you a product before you hand over your money. Have they made coins before? Are they active cachers? Does their website have contact information easily available? Is there an anticipated delivery date available? Be smart about pre-sales, but I don't feel that pre-sales are the problem, the individual companies are. If a company is unscrupulous they can be just as bad with coins they are claiming are in-stock as coins they claim are pre-sale.

 

As purchasers we have never lost money buying a pre-sale coin. We have only had one coin that we bought that had a delay and when it did arrive we were thrilled with the coin and felt it was worth the wait. As sellers we work very hard to make sure our customers are happy with their interactions with us. To read the forums a newbie would think that every pre-sale transaction was suspect and on the verge of corruption, but there are a huge percentage of companies that do pre-sales with no problems ever. It is really a very, very small fraction of pre-sales that ever have issues.

 

Pre-sales enable us to stay in business. As a small company we offer pre-sales for several reasons, first and foremost is that we need to be able to order correct quantities of our coins and not sit on large quantities of coins that are not going to sell. Financially, any coin that we produce has funds set aside to cover production costs before we sell it. In order to keep that financial buffer intact we have to be careful that our order numbers are in-line with the purchase numbers.

 

As a purchaser, I love the variety of amazing coins available, a large number of those would not be possible without pre-sales. In a perfect world pre-sales would not be needed, but the reality is that small companies need to utilize every tool they can to make their businesses secure and profitable. Pre-sales, right now, are a great way to help us plan and manage our business- please don't penalize us for the few companies that have caused problems in the past.

[+fairyhoney]

It seems that up until about a year ago, the one "co" that we have discussed in other threads - and yes, been brought up in this one - they did a righteous job at delivering even though they were pre-sale.

[+LadeBear68]

"As has been said on other forums, communication is the key! Pre-sales are a crucial part of our business, so we make every effort to keep our customers informed during every step of the process. We post anticipated delivery dates on the website and update it every time we can, send newsletters and emails when needed, etc. To the best of our knowledge our customers are happy with the way we do business and satisfied with our coins. Why punish the companies that *are* responsible business owners for the few that are not? Take a couple minutes to look into a new company that is offering to sell you a product before you hand over your money. Have they made coins before? Are they active cachers? Does their website have contact information easily available? Is there an anticipated delivery date available? Be smart about pre-sales, but I don't feel that pre-sales are the problem, the individual companies are. If a company is unscrupulous they can be just as bad with coins they are claiming are in-stock as coins they claim are pre-sale."

 

Interesting response. Your coins are ones that I am staying away from right now as you have not been selling coins long. You popped onto the scene and started selling them one after another. The ink hasn't dried on one coin sale and you are selling another coin. You also have 210 finds which isn't a lot. So if we are basing this on your criteria you would fall short of someone that I would feel comfortable handing money over to. I am glad that some people think your pre-sales are fine, but you are starting out the same as the other company that is now in trouble.

[+fairyhoney]

"As has been said on other forums, communication is the key! Pre-sales are a crucial part of our business, so we make every effort to keep our customers informed during every step of the process. We post anticipated delivery dates on the website and update it every time we can, send newsletters and emails when needed, etc. To the best of our knowledge our customers are happy with the way we do business and satisfied with our coins. Why punish the companies that *are* responsible business owners for the few that are not? Take a couple minutes to look into a new company that is offering to sell you a product before you hand over your money. Have they made coins before? Are they active cachers? Does their website have contact information easily available? Is there an anticipated delivery date available? Be smart about pre-sales, but I don't feel that pre-sales are the problem, the individual companies are. If a company is unscrupulous they can be just as bad with coins they are claiming are in-stock as coins they claim are pre-sale."

 

Interesting response. Your coins are ones that I am staying away from right now as you have not been selling coins long. You popped onto the scene and started selling them one after another. The ink hasn't dried on one coin sale and you are selling another coin. You also have 210 finds which isn't a lot. So if we are basing this on your criteria you would fall short of someone that I would feel comfortable handing money over to. I am glad that some people think your pre-sales are fine, but you are starting out the same as the other company that is now in trouble.

 

They have been good with their coins - besides, they have the same last name as the AEToys. So maybe they had clout established going in ?

[+LadeBear68]

I see that they are connected with AEToys, but not sure the clout is good. Aren't people having difficulty with Aetoys and communication?

[+LionsLair]

simply put, anytime I read the words "pre-sale" on any coin offered, it is a total turn off to me any more, after having the huge delays(several months) with some of the companies. These so called 'few bad apples' have left a sour taste in my mouth and have caused me to pass on several 'pre-sale' coins. I have a small limited few companies I still trust when offering pre-sales. but from an individual or new company, I avoid them like the plague.

I am not as willing anymore to put myself at risk of losing my $ or have it tied up for several months before I can get what I ordered. I guess I'm just a bit old school when it comes to buying and selling, I think a company should have the product(coins) in hand before it is ever even offered for sale.

Many good points are made by several cachers here and although a policy for sales of coins would not make everyone happy, I think someone, whether it be PayPal or Groundspeak, should set up certain rules and guidelines for coins that haven't been produced yet before they are offered for sale. simply having the artwork alone should not be enough to be able to sell them.

 

not to change the suject, but....

..... if someone doesn't have to money to make a coin, there are other ways to get it done, one such option is partnering with one of the main vendors rather than trying to do all the selling and minting yourself.

this is an interesting alternative... I'll need to research this further as I have a couple of ideas for coins that may prove to be pretty good and maybe a larger vendor would be willing to help make it a reality are there any threads that you know of on this subject?

[+Boom!pa]

Interesting response. Your coins are ones that I am staying away from right now as you have not been selling coins long. You popped onto the scene and started selling them one after another. The ink hasn't dried on one coin sale and you are selling another coin. You also have 210 finds which isn't a lot. So if we are basing this on your criteria you would fall short of someone that I would feel comfortable handing money over to. I am glad that some people think your pre-sales are fine, but you are starting out the same as the other company that is now in trouble.

 

Not sure if you are refering to me but I assume the coincidence that I have 210 finds may not be much of a coincidence. If so, I respect your choice to stay away from our coins if you are not comfortable buying as a pre-sale, again, nothing says you have to buy from me. As for the "The ink hasn't dried on one coin sale and you are selling another coin" comment we don't start pre-selling another coin until ALL of our last coins are sold out AND shipped. I didn't know there was a timeline to when it is acceptable to sell another coin as I have seen multiple companies selling multiple coins at a time. An active geocaching account is a good sign of if a person can be reachable and the number of finds doesn't affect anything unless its under 10. I doubt people would just search out 200+ caches as a trial! It's not fair to pigeon-hole a newer seller just because of other sellers business practices.

[+LadeBear68]

No, I was quoting Sofi and Holmbiorn. I wasn't referring to you at all.

[+Boom!pa]

No, I was quoting Sofi and Holmbiorn. I wasn't referring to you at all.

 

My bad...sorry!

[+Kealia]

<snipped for brevity>

Basically the buyers are buying a "share" in the final result of the project. It's exactly like giving someone money to start a company. If the company fails, you may lose your money. Unfortunatly, there will never be more profit for the investors than the coins they paid for, instead of getting a share of the profits.

 

I know there are flaws in this viewpoint, but if you're willing to pay for a coin in advance that isn't even minted yet, be prepared to lose your money.

I disagree with this entirely. If you hand over your money, it's a contract in my opinion, not a risk. They are promising to deliver something in exchange for your funds. If it becomes a "chance" that you'll get something, then we're talking about a lottery which is a whole other ball of yarn to unwind.

 

Buying coins in a presale is like buying seeds, some may not sprout.

Again, disagree. It's an agreement to deliver goods in exchange for money.

 

The way the company,s that are mention by Mustang Joni do it is not the same presale it is more of a advance order . You go to the store make your purchase its made and delivered on a set time frame. Just like ordering a couch . They now how many to make and every one who wants one has the opportunity to buy one. Its a good service a bit longer wait but if with a good presale or advance order program everyone is happy.

I agree with this. There's a difference in my opinion of "pre-sales" which I think of as a way for those who can't (or won't) front the money for a coin to have a coin made - and I've never liked this practice, OR

 

Advanced orders which means the samples are minted and only enough coins to fulfill orders will be made. The former is normally done by individuals while the latter is typically done by companies that don't need your money to have a coin made. I'll buy on advanced order if I like the coin, but won't support the other method.

 

Pre-sale encompass all sales for product not yet received from the factory. So that could mean anything from the order not yet placed with the factory to even the design not yet finalized.

 

Edit to add: I just hate the notion of pre-sale as an investment in the company and therefore should be prepared to lose the money as any investor is programmed to do. It's not an investment. No dividends are paid out, no discount no share in the profits. Those pay offs are what compel an investor to risk losing their money.

 

Pre-sales are sales contracts for product not yet available. It's a contract to deliver that product and a paid guarantee to receive it. If it doesn't get delivered within a reasonable time frame it's called FRAUD. I don't care how many grandmothers died or legs were broken that impeded the fulfillment of the pre-sale contracts. If you don't deliver you've de-frauded your customers. And I believe it to be quite fair to publish the names of those guilty of not delivering on their promises to honour their contracts. Call me a hard a** but after seeing the current debacle with the financial institutions I have no patience with Mom and Pop shops thinking they're Bear Stearns (or Enron, WorldCom, AIG, Global Crossing, Lehman Bros etc).

Amen. I didn't read this thoroughly before posting my above responses but this hit the nail on the head.

 

In the end, I go back to what I said from day 1. If you can't afford to pay for a coin to be produced on your own, you shouldn't be making a coin. It's just hard reality. I'm sick of the sense of entitlement that I hear that "everybody should be able to have/make a coin". No, everybody should not. If you can afford to make a coin, more power to you. If you can't, that's life.

 

Not everybody has the "right" to everything. If you can't afford a Mercedes, you drive something less expensive. Can't afford the new Garmin Coloroda, maybe you use an eTrex, etc. Can't afford a geocoin, make wooden nickels, PathTags, GeoTags, etc.

 

Do what you can afford and don't overstretch yourself. That's where people get in trouble.

</soapbox> (although I'm not quite sure where it started.....)

[+fairyhoney]

"Do what you can afford and don't overstretch yourself. That's where people get in trouble."

 

And then say YEAH !

[+MustangJoni]

"As has been said on other forums, communication is the key! Pre-sales are a crucial part of our business, so we make every effort to keep our customers informed during every step of the process. We post anticipated delivery dates on the website and update it every time we can, send newsletters and emails when needed, etc. To the best of our knowledge our customers are happy with the way we do business and satisfied with our coins. Why punish the companies that *are* responsible business owners for the few that are not? Take a couple minutes to look into a new company that is offering to sell you a product before you hand over your money. Have they made coins before? Are they active cachers? Does their website have contact information easily available? Is there an anticipated delivery date available? Be smart about pre-sales, but I don't feel that pre-sales are the problem, the individual companies are. If a company is unscrupulous they can be just as bad with coins they are claiming are in-stock as coins they claim are pre-sale."

 

Interesting response. Your coins are ones that I am staying away from right now as you have not been selling coins long. You popped onto the scene and started selling them one after another. The ink hasn't dried on one coin sale and you are selling another coin. You also have 210 finds which isn't a lot. So if we are basing this on your criteria you would fall short of someone that I would feel comfortable handing money over to. I am glad that some people think your pre-sales are fine, but you are starting out the same as the other company that is now in trouble.

 

I know that this company is somehow associated with AE Toys, but I see a bit of a difference. First off, they have come into the community as a person and not a company. They have been participating. I've always felt this was good.

 

Number 2, their communication has been great. They give you a due date on the coin, and if there are any issues, not only do you get an email, and their site is updated, they also communicate this in the thread they've create to sell the coin. I haven't gotten a due date of "soon" from them.

 

Also, they have invested in samples of their coins. Several coins by AE, people just bought from the artwork. I feel samples are important so you can work out any production bugs before you offer them for sale.

 

I'm not sure, but I think that they don't start the sale of the next coin until they have delivered the previous coin. If not, I wouldn't buy more than one coin on pre-sale from them at a time.

 

I didn't spend a lot on my first order. I bought one coin. I now have the Greatest Cache coin on order. I'm not at all worried about it.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

 

Let's try to avoid turning this into a Discussion of any particular companies or vendors. That is only one of the topics that has had me thinking about this.

 

This thread is started to discuss the merits and function of the presale tool.

Edited September 20, 2008 by WRITE SHOP ROBERT

[+Wandering Vikings]

 

Interesting response. Your coins are ones that I am staying away from right now as you have not been selling coins long. You popped onto the scene and started selling them one after another. The ink hasn't dried on one coin sale and you are selling another coin. You also have 210 finds which isn't a lot. So if we are basing this on your criteria you would fall short of someone that I would feel comfortable handing money over to. I am glad that some people think your pre-sales are fine, but you are starting out the same as the other company that is now in trouble.

 

I know that this company is somehow associated with AE Toys, but I see a bit of a difference. First off, they have come into the community as a person and not a company. They have been participating. I've always felt this was good.

 

 

We have no interest in a flame war, we are just trying to weigh in on this important discussion, but really feel the need to respond to a few of the comments made. I apologize for continuing an off-topic discussion, but since the original post was made here, this is the most logical place to post a response.

 

We are not connected in a business way to AE Toys. The owner of AE Toys is my husband (Holmbiorn's) brother and is the one who introduced us to Geocaching. They did manufacture our first geocoin for us, but since that time our business connection has been limited to posting a link on each others page. We love them and are greatful for their introduction to such a fabulous hobby- but our business' are completely seperate and in no way connected.

 

We are a legal company- Lillysue, LLC registered and maintained in Utah state, with a federal tax ID number and subject to all of the laws and regulations that entails.

 

We completely respect the right of each person to make a choice on what business they want to support. Our point earlier, and the reason I am responding now, is to ask people to not blame *every* company who does pre-sales for the shady business dealings of the few.

 

Any person who has ANY issue with an order placed with our company is encouraged to contact us, and/or voice their displeasure. But please don't judge us based off of speculation from other companies actions.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Kudos to WSR for trying to keep this on topic. Just because there is one off-topic post doesn't mean that it warrants a response. It's like kids who claimm "she started it", "no, he did". Not calling any of you children, mind you.

 

Please keep this discussion on the topic of pre-sales and not the practices of any one person or company. Electrons are nearly free, use them for a new thread if you need to.

[+fairyhoney]

(But, I didn't do it . . . )

[+dardevle]

I have bought a couple of coins using the "presale" method and I have never run into a problem. I really like it. If the coin does end up being made then I am guarentied to get one. I only usaully buy 1 or 2 coins at atime when I do buy them so....If it the coin is not made and I lost some money I would be upset but would not stop doing the pre-sale option. We lost $5,000 two quarters ago in one of our investments, $10-20 is the least of my worries.

[+Cheesy pigs]

I have to agree with Kealia. People should only commit to something they, themselves, can afford.

 

When I first got into geocoins a couple of years ago, I had some spare change lying about which I spent on geocoins. There was not a chance back then that I could have afforded a coin by myself, and there was no way I wanted to risk money that belonged to other people. I had seen the horror stories, and I didn't want to mint and sell a coin for profit. I wanted to make something that had meaning to me, was pretty to look at, and had some value as a trader.

 

A couple of years on, I decided I wanted to create a coin, so I saved up as much money as I could, and my geocaching friend went me halves. So $2000 - what can we get for that? Turned out to be coin codes, die art, designer fee, and minting of 300 coins.

 

I didn't make a monetary profit from my coins - but I did get myself 30 'free' geocoins, which I was happy with.

 

Pre-sales, to me, seem like money-making ventures for coin 'companies'. They dont want risk (although they are happy enough for the buyer to risk their money) but they want profit. They dont want to over-buy coins so they have a heap left over (and lose money) and they dont want to under-buy and lose out on potential profits. What some 'companies' forget is that it IS fraud to accept money and not deliver as promised.

 

There are a couple of 'companies' that I am happy to use pre-sales for, because over the years they have never failed to deliver to anyone. They keep their buyers updated at all times, and they are friendly and efficient, sometimes even adding a pin or patch or something as an extra if the buyer has been inconvenienced through mint delays.

 

Their customer service is excellent, but they refuse to take risks. But because they are reputable, the risk to the consumer is next to zero.

 

For the people who have no business sense, really want their own coins but cant afford it or hope that geocoins will make a them a large profit - say please submit your design to a reputable company that can make it for you and sell it for you. Removes much of the risks to everyone concerned!

 

PS I miss Georgia

[Theotokos]

Personally, we will not do any pre-sales for our coins. The Puzzle Coin we've been working on is an example of why. It has taken so long to make and I would have hated to have taken everyone's money for such a long time. Because of this coin, it's also backed up 7-8 other coins we've got at the mint. So that one coin pushed everything else back.

 

Pre-sales may work for some but I feel to guilty doing it that way. I like to wait until the coins are in before putting them up for sale.

 

Edit....Sorry, but who is Georgia may I ask?

 

Edit again...I also don't feel that the number of caches you have found has anything to do with selling geocoins. We love caching but this year has been extremely difficult for us and it is rare that we can get out. We still love it and hope things will improve but I hope we aren't judged by our numbers.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Theotokos

[+Cheesy pigs]

Edit....Sorry, but who is Georgia may I ask?

Georgia and Sharon from The Caching Place....great people, but no longer in the geocoin business. Although the new people running it seem great too

[Theotokos]

Edit....Sorry, but who is Georgia may I ask?

Georgia and Sharon from The Caching Place....great people, but no longer in the geocoin business. Although the new people running it seem great too

 

Ah yes, thank you..

[avroair]

..... if someone doesn't have to money to make a coin, there are other ways to get it done, one such option is partnering with one of the main vendors rather than trying to do all the selling and minting yourself.

this is an interesting alternative... I'll need to research this further as I have a couple of ideas for coins that may prove to be pretty good and maybe a larger vendor would be willing to help make it a reality are there any threads that you know of on this subject?

 

All the established "big" vendors have partner programs where you get some coins for your design. If you haven't made a coin before they can be quite a learning experience.

[+Cav Scout]

We know who you are .

 

Kudos to WSR for trying to keep this on topic. Just because there is one off-topic post doesn't mean that it warrants a response. It's like kids who claimm "she started it", "no, he did". Not calling any of you children, mind you.

 

Please keep this discussion on the topic of pre-sales and not the practices of any one person or company. Electrons are nearly free, use them for a new thread if you need to.

[+CornCrazy]

..... if someone doesn't have to money to make a coin, there are other ways to get it done, one such option is partnering with one of the main vendors rather than trying to do all the selling and minting yourself.

 

I am very new to trying to make my own coins. I have, in fact, contacted Hogwild Stuff in order to try to make a coin. I have been considering doing a presale. Hogwild offered to do a resell program for me. It would eliminate my risk, however, I basically lose the rights to my design. They said I would get 25 "limited edition" coins, and then 5 percent of any of my future coins minted by them. If I make a coin that turns out to be popular (which Hogwild thinks will happen with my coin), then I want to be the one to profit from it. I understand it is still a risk I will have to take, and realize I may lose money in the process, but I want to try to mint the coin myself.

 

It is very sad for me to hear that some people are ripping others off by doing presales. It makes it hard for people who really want to make some coins, but don't necessarily have all of the funds to do it. I guess I will be doing some more research into presales and making my own coins.

[+CornCrazy]

..... if someone doesn't have to money to make a coin, there are other ways to get it done, one such option is partnering with one of the main vendors rather than trying to do all the selling and minting yourself.

 

I am very new to trying to make my own coins. I have, in fact, contacted Hogwild Stuff in order to try to make a coin. I have been considering doing a presale. Hogwild offered to do a resell program for me. It would eliminate my risk, however, I basically lose the rights to my design. They said I would get 25 "limited edition" coins, and then 5 percent of any of my future coins minted by them. If I make a coin that turns out to be popular (which Hogwild thinks will happen with my coin), then I want to be the one to profit from it. I understand it is still a risk I will have to take, and realize I may lose money in the process, but I want to try to mint the coin myself.

 

It is very sad for me to hear that some people are ripping others off by doing presales. It makes it hard for people who really want to make some coins, but don't necessarily have all of the funds to do it. I guess I will be doing some more research into presales and making my own coins.

[+tsunrisebey]

Here's one of the old threads I could find on presales. Didn't want to hijack the other thread.

 

Folks, speaking as a vendor, don't buy on presales. It doesn't matter how reliable someone is, life does happen and things get delayed or never delivered and there goes your hard earned money.

 

Like someone else mentioned in another thread, we've seen it over and over and it never turns out pretty.

 

I've spoke numerous times in other threads about the one time I tried a presale and I will NEVER do another one. As a vendor, I got my paypal account locked for doing a presale years ago for a geocoin sale. It got locked the day the presale ended and all the money was sitting in my account and I had no access to it. I had alot of coins that needed to be minted and thank goodness I had funds in a savings account because that could have been an ugly mess for me and my customers. It was an event that I never anticipated happening but it did and paypal can be a son-of-a-gun to deal with.

 

Buying in a presale is a RISK and nothing more. It's really that simple.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again for those of you newer to the geocoin craziness, if a vendor/coin designer can not afford to make a coin without getting your money in their hands first, then they shouldn't be making coins. That way the only risk is to the coin vendor/designer, right where it should be.

 

tsun

[+goosefraba1]

Thanks Tsun... yep I believe that I will not be investing in presale items any longer. I had never thought of it the way that Robert put it. That is a good perspective.

[+Bhob]

two advantages that I can see to the concept of a presale -

 

1. to the collector

some assurance that they will actually be able get the item(s) in question

 

2. to the vendor

they know in advance what the demand will be

they do not make too many (meaning getting stuck with un-salable inventory)

and they do not make too few (meaning lost sales opportunities, and disappointed customers)

 

both of these situations (and most of the concerns listed above) can be address via accepting reservations

 

with reservations, no money needs to be "risked" by the consumer

the right number of the geocoin will get made

everybody who wants one will get one

and, if there is not enough demand, the project can be canceled, without any need to refund pre-payments

 

seems like a win-win, to me