Learning the ropes

[+Star*Hopper]

Hi all,

I don't want this to sound like a complaint directed at anyone, but a situation arose yesterday that gave rise to my inquiry. I am a noob to the sport, and as such am trying to learn the finer points of the 'ethics' involved.

 

I have placed a single cache thus far, and did so after much planning, and with considerable thought and consideration toward making it a quality cache, with a reason for bringing people there, and providing a decent challenge of a hunt without making it an overly arduous task.

 

Now, I realize that organizing hunts involving four, six or even eight or more geocachers is (apparently) considered acceptable behaviour. I myself hunt alone - if I find it, I want the pride of finding it, and don't want the experience diluted. But that's me, and I wouldn't try to force my beliefs onto others. But bottom line, I just wouldn't feel entirely comfortable taking credit for a find, when someone else actually found it for me.

 

My situation is this. Two geocachers working together arrived at my cache, only to find a "civilian" work party there performing grounds maintenance. Now as I understand it, much of the game lies in NOT revealing yourself & your intention to "muggles". Listings even go so far as to state when & where "stealth" is a factor - and countless log reports mention having to leave & return later, because of muggle presence. Not only did these guys "decide, since it was late, to press ahead with the search" they actually engaged the help of the muggles in their search - and sure enough, one of THEM found it!

 

So my question is - should this be an allowable 'find'? Both of the GCrs had great numbers of finds, and I feel the odds are that with more searching, they might have found it. But then again, perhaps they would not have! I'll say here that I am glad my cache was found - after all, I put it out there to BE found. And they were not first - it had been found a couple times already. But should a Geocacher take (or get) credit for a find he did NOT in fact find on his own, but rather, was actually found by an "outsider"?

 

So, what is the concensus as to a verdict -- where does this fall in the order of things? And if "wrong", what would you suggest be done about it?

 

Thanx for your patience & enlightenment,

~Star*Hopper

[+x_Marks_the_spot]

How you play the game of geocaching is entirely up to you. If you want to go it alone, have at it. We hunt with others sometimes.

 

As a cache owner, however, you call the shots on your cache. If you want to delete their log, you are at liberty to do so.

 

Me? I'd be a bit put off by it if it was my log. If you're worried about your cache being muggled, that's kind of the risk you take when you place a cache. if you're trying to control the way people play the game, then I have to wonder why.

 

But it's your cache do with it what you want.

[+webscouter.]

They signed the log they get a find. And they spread the sport a bit, you might even see the ground crew involved in the future. They may have also saved your cache in the future by letting the ground crew know about the game so they don't pick up your cache later.

[+Zolgar]

It's your cache, it's entirely up to you. You can remove their find if you see fit.

 

I think the choice of getting muggle involved in the find was a rather.. poor choice, personally. But there's no real "rules" laid down by the entire community.

 

Just as a hider removed the FTF log from one of their caches because the finder had done so outside of park hours. you can choose to remove the log because the enlisted the help of muggles to find it.

 

when you make the cache, you make the rules pertaining to that cache.

[+PaRacers]

Every different cache and individual situation has it's own perception of what's "right" or "wrong". While there is something to be said for you claiming each of your finds as your own, there are times when group finds are not only enjoyable but ethicly necessary such as a chance meeting of other cachers on the trail or at the site of a cache. Sometimes alittle restraint or stealth is the answer to finding a cache near muggles, sometimes not. I've encountered an upset landowner while unknowingly trespassing because of a mistake in the cache's coords. By using a level head and some manners, the landowner ended up helping us look for the cache and eventually finding it. He even signed the log!

Bottom line....You placed a quality cache, what the finders of that cache make their experience is up to them. If they short change themselves somehow in their hunt, it's their loss. Kick back and enjoy the game.

Edited February 22, 2008 by PaRacers

[Motorcycle_Mama]

It's a find.

 

When I first started reading the OP, I thought that the concern was going to be that the cachers claimed a find even though they couldn't get to the cache itself due to the grounds crew. That, IMHO, would not be a find.

[saopaulo1@hotmail.com]

Personally I would let it be. They found it with a little help. Plus might've got a new person into the game. Personally I wouldnt worry about it too much. It's just a game.

[+TrailGators]

They were there and they signed the log. It is very common practice for people to cache in groups.

[+briansnat]

It's common practice that if you find the cache as a team, everybody logs the find.

 

I geocache with my wife a lot. Sometimes she actually finds it, sometimes it's me. We both log the find because we acted as a team.

 

Another example from this weekend. My wife and I were geocaching in RI. We were searching and coming up empty, when another geocacher came along. He joined in the hunt and the 3 of us still couldn't find it.

 

He was a local and mentioned something about the usual style of the hider. That set a light bulb off in my head and I pointed to an object about 30 feet away and said "there". The 3 of us approached the object and we each took an end to search. He actually found it. We all logged the find because it was a team effort and we were all part of the team.

 

Now if I just sat there and read the paper while my wife and the other guy searched, I wouldn't log the find because I wasn't involved in the hunt.

[+StarBrand]

It is quite common to cache in groups. Enlisting the help of courious onlookers is also common (when it happens). Anybody involved in the hunt usually claims credit as a "find".

 

I cache with my family and have found my 5 year old and 2 year old sometimes are able to find the cache before me. But I have no problem with logging a find. My account is the only one my family uses. I am always there but various other members of my family may or may not be at any given cache.

 

Geocaching is what you make of it. I respect that you like the purity of a 1 man single effort to hunt and find. Others go caching for the fun of interacting with others and seeing new places.

[Neos2]

I agree with the majority here--and I would even add that this is a very cool story. We cache in groups sometimes, and when we do whoever actually finds it gets bragging rights among out group for being the one to spot it before the rest of us, but we all log the find.

 

We've had "muggles" find the cache while "with" us a few times. Once was a landowner, who I suspect didn't quite belive us until he found the cache before us (at which point he was on cloud nine!). Another time it was a police officer who wondered why we were so interested in a road barrier--we told him the story and he used his mag light to make the find.

 

Still another time, we were "discovered" by a group of teens while searching for a cache at "their" local swimming hole. They insisted on knowing what we were doing, and were excited to see how GPS units work. Some more teens pulled up in mid lesson, and they exictedly explained the whole thing to them and then the entire crew of kids spread out to find the cache. I watched that cache for months to see if it disappeared because the kids knew about it, but it was just fine. Still is (I just checked).

 

Here's another way to look at this: You have every right to be pleased, I think. People are finding your cache and complimenting it. Cachers have used your cache to teach others about the hobby. People doing landscaping near your cache saw it as a good thing to have there rather than a nuisance to the landscaping--so if you were worried that it would be accidentally discovered and removed you can probably remove that fear from your worry list now (at least as far as the work crew is concerned--and if you had permission from the land manager you are totally 'good to go' now).

 

I've never seen a cache where the owner required cachers to hunt solo. You could make that a requirement, but it might cut down on the number of people hunting the cache.

 

Of course, you can continue to prefer to hunt alone and take solo credit for your own finds, too. There is also nothing at all wrong in doing that either.

[+frogsaunt]

I've used muggles before to help me find a cache. I was hunitng one that was by a popluar fishing area that's used quite frequently.

I walked to the cache area and started looking when one of the fishermen asked me what I was looking for, so I explained GCing to him and then 4 of the fisherman told me excatly where the cache was.

 

Once I retrieved the cache they all wanted to know what was in it, and wanted to know more about Gcing so I explained it to them, showed them my GPSr, one of the younger ones wanted to know more so I gave him the website and the last I heard he's now dong GCing.

 

[+angevine]

Aha, the eternal frustration of geocaching: "they don't play the game the way I want them to."

 

Welcome to geocaching! I suspect that this is not going to be the only time when others' actions annoy or frustrate you. You need to decide how *you* want to play the game, and then -- as much as you can -- ignore people who play it in ways that you don't like.

 

I don't like lame micros. I don't like people living for the numbers. Can I do anything about it? Not a chance, and the only person I'm hurting by fretting is myself. Be Zen: be like water.

 

In any case, it's your cache, it's your call. You may choose to delete the log. Or you may choose to be excited that some muggles got introduced to the hobby through finding *your* cache -- that's pretty dadgum cool!

 

Your mileage is up to you ...

 

Jeannette (angevine)

[cliff_hanger]

I'd let it stand the way it is, but your cache, your rules. Ask yourself this: Would you allow the log under these circumstances?

Edited February 22, 2008 by cliff_hanger

[+the hermit crabs]

So my question is - should this be an allowable 'find'? Both of the GCrs had great numbers of finds, and I feel the odds are that with more searching, they might have found it. But then again, perhaps they would not have!

Here's another way to think about it: say these two cachers had been there alone, and there was no encounter with the groundskeeping crew at all. Cacher "A" spots the cache first, and they both sign the log and log the find online.

 

Would you allow only the find from Cacher "A", and delete the one from Cacher "B"? The odds are that with more searching, Cacher "B" might have found it -- but then again, perhaps he would not have!

[+Derb522002]

I was out caching with my hubby and I saw some people in the woods. They were looking around and I thought they were cachers. I talked to them and discovered they were not. I explained geocaching to them and they helped us find the cache. I opened the cache and showed them what was in the box. They thought it was cool how the cache was hidden so it would not be found. They were interested and they said if they came along a cache they would not take it out of the woods as trash. We had nice talk with them and then we all parted company.

 

So it can be educational experience too

[+Star*Hopper]

Hi again,

Muchly appreciate all the candid replies. The concensus seems to be that it's pretty much an open affair - a find is a find, no matter how you come about it. Kinda like love and war then? At any rate, as someone said, it's just a game. (To which I usually think, but most games do have rules of play, right? I just want to know what they are.)

 

But hmmmmm. "Of course, you can continue to prefer to hunt alone and take solo credit for your own finds, too. There is also nothing at all wrong in doing that either." Are you sure about that? Isn't that playin' pretty fast & loose with the rules?? I'm mighty glad to know I slid in under that stricture by the skin o' my teeth, playing the game in its purest form! *LOL* J/K of course!!

 

Please don't anybody get me wrong - as I stated in the premise, I was really just wanting to understand the difference in what's considered right and wrong, if there is a line of distincton. I'm sure I will be participating with someone at some time, and would rather not be getting "the skunkeye" due my own ignorance. And also as stated, am not one to force my beliefs on anyone else, nor their game. Heck, when golfing alone, I have been known to move my ball a bit with my foot, to improve my lie! (*sob*....the shame!) <G>

 

Now, to further amuse you, I purposely withheld one bit of information, in anticipation of the sure-to-come comments regarding the spread of the sport - exposing it to potential newcomers. You see, I don't think we can look to gain any new members thru this particular incident. Not for a while, at least. That particular "grounds maintenance crew"? Prison inmates.

 

And for your dessert -- the GCr who got their help? Unbeknownst to them....he's a cop!

 

Clear skies!

~Star*Hopper

[+Renegade Knight]

...So, what is the concensus as to a verdict -- where does this fall in the order of things? And if "wrong", what would you suggest be done about it? ...

 

Two cachers and some former muggles found the cache. When busted looking for a cache one solution is to sell the muggles on caching. Some of them go on to be cachers, most go on thinking that while this activity isn't for them, they get a kick that it's 'out there' and become allies. And to be fair, some few will make it so that the cacher should take the cache with them as it's toast.

 

The prisoners that I work with, most of them would follow the pattern above. Few if any would take the cache. If they are out working they are low risk.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[crawil]

...

 

Now, to further amuse you, I purposely withheld one bit of information, in anticipation of the sure-to-come comments regarding the spread of the sport - exposing it to potential newcomers. You see, I don't think we can look to gain any new members thru this particular incident. Not for a while, at least. That particular "grounds maintenance crew"? Prison inmates.

 

And for your dessert -- the GCr who got their help? Unbeknownst to them....he's a cop!

 

Clear skies!

~Star*Hopper

It's a good thing there wasn't a pocket knife, lighter or some other banned article in the cache. That story might have ended quite a bit differently!

[+uxorious]

At any rate, as someone said, it's just a game. (To which I usually think, but most games do have rules of play, right? I just want to know what they are.)

 

Yes most games have rules, but like Geocaching, a lot of the rules seem to be "house" rules.

 

I got a Mexican Train game for Christmas. While this is a great game, I've found you need to discuss the rules with any players that have played before. There are many many variations. Looking on line for rules I've found several web sites with conflicting rules.

 

When I was in the Navy I noticed the same thing about many card games. People from different parts of the country would have different rules. Even using the book of Hoyle didn't always help, as the alternate rules are sometimes listed.

 

I have found with Geocaching the important thing is you find a set of "rules" you and your caching mates like and then stick with those. If you go with a different group try to work those out before you go. Then try not to let the rules others use bother you too much.

[+nekom]

Like everyone else said, how you play the game and what you do with YOUR cache is entirely your call. In my personal opinion, if you write your name in the logbook, you can legitimately claim the find. I also personally would never delete a find unless the text were obscene or in some other way violated the terms of use. I never worry about what others are doing, I just do my own thing.

[+clevek]

I was introduced to this wonderful out door adventure 3 months ago by a friend while in Palm Springs, Ca. We had several great days of fun looking for hidden treasure as I learned how to use "the force" and an old blue e-trex unit. Being out doors with a buddy was great, and we found a few, and missed a few. He did not even keep track. One thing I've learned since starting is that there are no dumb questions. It's good to have a forum to ask these questions as they arise. I like to read the logs when I do log a DNF as well as a found it. Thanks again for all the good advice.

[+Team Cotati]

They need to learn a lesson. Delete their log without public comment. Then send them an email telling them why.

 

Two geocachers working together does not include whom ever happens to stumble upon them during the search. Irresponsible.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+Star*Hopper]

...That particular "grounds maintenance crew"? Prison inmates.

And for your dessert -- the GCr who got their help? Unbeknownst to them....he's a cop!

 

Clear skies!

~Star*Hopper

 

It's a good thing there wasn't a pocket knife, lighter or some other banned article in the cache. That story might have ended quite a bit differently!

 

See? Rules.

 

Usually there is a purpose for them....I'm inclined to not only question some rules, but their reason for being. I feel that really knowing the rules, and well, lets you play a better game.

 

As for some of the other comments....no, not going to delete or even comment on this incident in the logs. This example was just that - an example - and my wanting to understand the protocol in certain situations.

 

I know that some folks who've never won a trophy, have resorted to going to a trophy shop & buying one. If that's what it takes for them to feel better about themselves - so be it! The way I'm made, everytime I would see or think about it in the future, I'd be reminded I am a loser. That make sense?

 

Of course, some folks have no problem going out & robbing a bank or convenience store....without a moment's remorse. How I feel about it would't affect them one whit. Or stop them. Ergo, blogging it? Fail.

 

Thanx again for the input. I appreciate the guidance.

 

Clear skies!

~Star*Hopper

[Neos2]

Now, to further amuse you, I purposely withheld one bit of information, in anticipation of the sure-to-come comments regarding the spread of the sport - exposing it to potential newcomers. You see, I don't think we can look to gain any new members thru this particular incident. Not for a while, at least. That particular "grounds maintenance crew"? Prison inmates.

I presumed the grounds crew were prison inmates when I read your first post. Perhaps because I have seen work crews in parks so many times. Because of that, I also "got" the inside joke that the cacher who was telling the story was a police officer.

 

As other have said, these folks are usually low-risk individuals and may even be paid token amounts for their work. It's a win-win situation for all concerned--the fellows get to engage in a productive activity in the fresh air (instead of sitting around watching daytime soap operas), and the community gets low-cost landscaping crews, clean-up crews, etc. Since "the community" is already 'paying' room and board for these fellows, it just makes sense that they get the chance to pay back a bit to the community.

 

I'm not sure anyone other than a police officer would have had the nerve to stay that close to the work crew. While they aren't dangerous, most of us give the guys some space when they are working. For starters, it tends to make the guards accompanying them nervous if citizens get too close to the work crew. While the crew might be trusted, who knows whether the civilans might try to slip someone some contraband? But even more than that, well, most of the time it's just polite to stay out of the way of anyone who is trying to get some work done.

[+SniperChicken]

My thoughts:

First of all if it was me seeking the cache and it was pretty clear that i couldn't locate and replace the cache without being inconspicous then it would just be appropiate to just walk away from that cache for now.The cache will be there for me to find later .

 

Since the cache was found...by whoever and however means; it IS a legitimite find.

 

One of the first things i think about when hiding a cache is placement.

What access can be used to get to the cache.

When someone is seeking this cache will they be spotted?

If there is a lot of muggle activity expected and there is little or no cover available

include a hint that will get the cacher in and out in a hurry and ensure they don't attract a lot

of attention.Cache security is both the hiders and the hunters responsibity.Try to place the cache in a location where muggle activity will not be a factor if possible : )

[+Team Teague]

We cache as a family of 4. Sometimes I find it, sometimes my husband, a lot of times our 6 year old and sometimes our 3 year old. We (the adults) each sign the log. It's meant to be a fun game, no matter how you play it.

 

Maybe the muggles that they involved will come to love the sport and place many caches to be found. Maybe not. We tell people about the game all the time, because we love it so much!

 

I am sorry, though, that as a new cacher and placer of caches you are so upset....that's no fun.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

My thoughts:

First of all if it was me seeking the cache and it was pretty clear that i couldn't locate and replace the cache without being inconspicous then it would just be appropiate to just walk away from that cache for now.The cache will be there for me to find later .

 

That's not always the case for me. Caches *do* get archived. However, for anyone that caches while traveling revisiting a site may not be feasible. A recently business trip took my to Africa and I managed to squeeze in a small amount of time to grab some caches. One of them is what I consider to be a "once in a lifetime" cache. It was located in a heavily visited spot near what many consider the most scenic waterfalls on earth (Victoria Falls). For a cache like that I'm going to be extra diligent about trying to get a find.

 

I *have* taken a DNF on a cache while on business in Rome. I even spotted the cache but there was a group of about 30 people on a tour sitting 10' from the cache facing the direction from which I would have made my approach. Fortunately, I had found several other caches earlier so I didn't leave Italy without a find.

 

One of the first things i think about when hiding a cache is placement.

What access can be used to get to the cache.

When someone is seeking this cache will they be spotted?

If there is a lot of muggle activity expected and there is little or no cover available

include a hint that will get the cacher in and out in a hurry and ensure they don't attract a lot

of attention.Cache security is both the hiders and the hunters responsibity.Try to place the cache in a location where muggle activity will not be a factor if possible : )

 

I know that some caches, a high muggle factor is intentional as part of the challenge of logging a find. However, I recently found a cache that was in a busy area just outside a Starbucks. What made this one difficult was that the cache was hidden such that it was very difficult to retrieve. There was also a letter box (in a key case) essentially at the same location that was hidden exactly the same way. I found the letter box first, then located the actual cache. It look me a good 10 minutes from the time I arrived at GZ to when I replaced the cache after logging. Fortunately, I searched for this cache at around 9:00am on New Years Day so the muggle activity was extremely low. I can't imagine trying to grab this cache on a regular day.

[+Team Cotati]

This has got to be a joke.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I do not think highly of getting muggles to help hunt for the cache. That's a great way to get a cache muggled. Nope. I do not think highly of 'introducing stranges to the hobby.'

"Sign the log - get a smiley" is the way I play the game. Usually, but not always, I cache with another. One of us finds it. That means that the other does not. We both sign the log. If I cache with my brother or sister, one of us finds it. We all sign. I've met quite a number of people on the hunt. If I have the cache in hand, I will usually ask "want me to hide it again so you can find it?" No one has ever said "Yes". When none of us has found it, we all search as a team.

There is a local cache with the rule "Everyone must retrieve the cache to find it." It's 45' up a tree. I can understand that requirement. I ain't never going to attempt that one. If you want everyone to retrieve it. or even for everyone to find it, in order to log it, then you should put that on the cache page. Team caching is very common.

[+Former Hawkeye]

As a 56 year old granny my husband likes me to cache with another person when he is out of town working-most of the time I take a friend MJ and her dog. MJ just signs the log but does not care to log on-line. There are so many different ways to play and for so many different reasons-I say leave it a find. This is suppose to be fun

[+Star*Hopper]

Snip:

"..."Sign the log - get a smiley" is the way I play the game. Usually, but not always, I cache with another. One of us finds it. That means that the other does not. We both sign the log. If I cache with my brother or sister, one of us finds it. We all sign. I've met quite a number of people on the hunt. If I have the cache in hand, I will usually ask "want me to hide it again so you can find it?" No one has ever said "Yes". When none of us has found it, we all search as a team. ..." /Snip

 

There is a caching concept that covers this point - and I like it. I think it really adds to the fun and intent of the game, by retaining the element of 'discovery' for all in the party involved. Borrowing from the 'Lexicon':

Huckle-Buckle-Beanstalk – A method of group caching, which takes its name from a classic children's game. When a member of the group spots the cache, they walk elsewhere (to not give away the cache's location), then call out, “huckle-buckle-beanstalk!” (or whatever word or phrase the group has decided on). This continues until everyone in the group has either spotted the cache, or given up, after which the cache is retrieved and logged. Compare this to the Three Musketeers method.

 

(& for the reference:)

Three Musketeers – A method of group cache hunting, which takes its name from the Musketeer motto, “All for one and one for all.” Unlike the Huckle-Buckle-Beanstalk method, as soon as one person in the group finds the cache, the hunt is over, and all members of the group log their find.

 

Unfortunately (and this is strictly my opinion), the 'HBB' concept - and the fun it keeps in the game - seems to be either ignored or overlooked by the vast majority, for which it has become "all about the numbers".

 

And finally, I passed over this the first time w/o comment, but...

"I am sorry, though, that as a new cacher and placer of caches you are so upset....that's no fun."

Probably an innocuous comment, but just for the record, .... WHAT?!?!? I have no earthly idea where nor how you derived that I am or was, "so upset"!! Perhaps you should re-read the opening post - as I said, I'm ONLY inquiring about this in order to learn the proper way to play the game. 'Learning the ropes', just as the topic title says....& not "upset".

 

And on that point - I'm learning pretty quickly. I've been witness to at least 4 incidents since posting this -:

} A geocoin removed without its being logged as being taken, nor re-dropped -- in effect, STOLEN!

} An entire, full, large ammo-can cache EMPTIED of its swag (all new merchandise) - & not a single item mentioned in any log. And trust me, NO one would ever go to this place unless they were geocachers looking for it, so it was not muggled -- it was MUGGED.

} A whole new 15-cache series put out recently, where every one was FTF'd by one player....and "coincidentally" the FTF'r was the cacher's teammate & GC'g partner. (Then the guy was stupid enough to tell on himself in his loggings.)

} A cache I went out early and tried to FTF - I arrived at the site in the rain and sat there a good 10 minutes acquiring satellite signal & analyzing likely GZs from the readout before starting for it. Went straight to the most likely point (40-yard walk) thru mud....opened the container, found a perfectly dry log sheet (raining, remember?) FTF'd 4 MINUTES prior to the present time (I'd been there 10+ minutes, remember?) and not a single person in sight, & no footprints nor tireprints in the surrounding field of 2-3" deep mud, other than my own. By the way - the FTF'r was the same "series" FTFr mentioned above. Also cached by his buddy.

 

So yes, I'm learning. For some, obviously, it's "ANYTHING GOES!"

 

And what astounds me is - for the 'number seekers'....all they go thru, the lengths to which they'll go....& all it gets them is a number beside a 'handle', on some mundane web page, that 99% of the world will never ever see.

Amazing.

 

***

[+Driver Carries Cache]

I see two separate issues here. I hunt with a buddy all the time. One or the other will make the find, usually with the other only a scant couple of feet away. If I find first, typically I'll step aside and wait. He'll look up at me and say "you found it, didn't you?" and I'll nod and leave him to finish his search. I wouldn't want to rob him of the adventure!

 

Now if it's a group of 30 people finding your cache, it's a bit different, but I'd probably still allow the find(s).

 

As far as employing muggles to help... I think that endangers the placement and would have passed on the search and come back when the coast was clear. Now if you're searching and are surprised by muggles, many times an explanation is in order.

 

DCC

[+Renegade Knight]

...Three Musketeers – A method of group cache hunting, which takes its name from the Musketeer motto, “All for one and one for all.” Unlike the Huckle-Buckle-Beanstalk method, as soon as one person in the group finds the cache, the hunt is over, and all members of the group log their find.

 

Unfortunately (and this is strictly my opinion), the 'HBB' concept - and the fun it keeps in the game - seems to be either ignored or overlooked by the vast majority, for which it has become "all about the numbers". ...

 

it's my opinion that anyone who uses "it's about the numbers" in their post is trying to discredit whoever it is they are blaming it "being about the numbers" on.

 

Let me make this simple. I enjoy caching becuase it's an activity we do to get away from the daily crap in life and outside. That means when I use the three muskateers method it's because that's how my group has the most fun. Not becuase we are holding a beer on high and saying a toast "All for one and one for all the numbers".

 

The HBB concept is flawed for me and my group for a simple reason. The excitment in my group is to be the first in the group the fine the cachd. After that the challenge is done and the fun would not be prolonged by extending the hunt. The challege we enjoy has been met, tt's time to sign the log and move on where another may get their turn to be the lucky one to find the cache. For others the fun is finding the cache themselves without help. Great. That's their fun and within this activity there is room for that. There is room without the concept of numbers even coming up.

 

One interesting set of irony's I've found.

Those who say "it's about the fun" have the least.

Those who blame others for being "about the numbers" are also having the least fun.

 

Caching isn't perfect,but it's about as fun as you let it be.

[+TrailGators]

The HBB concept is flawed for me and my group for a simple reason. The excitment in my group is to be the first in the group the fine the cachd. After that the challenge is done and the fun would not be prolonged by extending the hunt. The challege we enjoy has been met, tt's time to sign the log and move on where another may get their turn to be the lucky one to find the cache. For others the fun is finding the cache themselves without help. Great. That's their fun and within this activity there is room for that. There is room without the concept of numbers even coming up.

I cache this way sometimes too. It's boring to do things the same exact way everytime you go out, so this changes things up!

[+tozainamboku]

And finally, I passed over this the first time w/o comment, but...

"I am sorry, though, that as a new cacher and placer of caches you are so upset....that's no fun."

Probably an innocuous comment, but just for the record, .... WHAT?!?!? I have no earthly idea where nor how you derived that I am or was, "so upset"!! Perhaps you should re-read the opening post - as I said, I'm ONLY inquiring about this in order to learn the proper way to play the game. 'Learning the ropes', just as the topic title says....& not "upset".

 

You may simply be asking what the "rule" or the norm is for certain situations. However you go on with

And on that point - I'm learning pretty quickly. I've been witness to at least 4 incidents since posting this -:

} A geocoin removed without its being logged as being taken, nor re-dropped -- in effect, STOLEN!

} An entire, full, large ammo-can cache EMPTIED of its swag (all new merchandise) - & not a single item mentioned in any log. And trust me, NO one would ever go to this place unless they were geocachers looking for it, so it was not muggled -- it was MUGGED.

} A whole new 15-cache series put out recently, where every one was FTF'd by one player....and "coincidentally" the FTF'r was the cacher's teammate & GC'g partner. (Then the guy was stupid enough to tell on himself in his loggings.)

} A cache I went out early and tried to FTF - I arrived at the site in the rain and sat there a good 10 minutes acquiring satellite signal & analyzing likely GZs from the readout before starting for it. Went straight to the most likely point (40-yard walk) thru mud....opened the container, found a perfectly dry log sheet (raining, remember?) FTF'd 4 MINUTES prior to the present time (I'd been there 10+ minutes, remember?) and not a single person in sight, & no footprints nor tireprints in the surrounding field of 2-3" deep mud, other than my own. By the way - the FTF'r was the same "series" FTFr mentioned above. Also cached by his buddy.

 

So yes, I'm learning. For some, obviously, it's "ANYTHING GOES!"

 

And what astounds me is - for the 'number seekers'....all they go thru, the lengths to which they'll go....& all it gets them is a number beside a 'handle', on some mundane web page, that 99% of the world will never ever see.

Amazing.

 

***

Many newbies ask questions about geocaching ethics such when it is OK to log a find and and most of them are more than willing to accept that there is a wide variety of opinions on the subject. After all this is just a game. There are no winners or losers. Everyone who participates can have fun. Those that want to have some kind of competitive motivation can set their own goals and use the numbers to see if they can achieve their goals. They soon realize it makes no sense to compare yourself to other geocachers. Some may only look for high difficulty caches while other stick to 1/1 hides. Some may want to find everything solo without any hints or spoilers. Others see geocaching as way to spend time with friends and it doesn't matter who in the group finds the cache or if they had to phone a friend for a hint.

 

Some people do end up becoming what I have called puritans. A puritan is someone who feels that everyone should play the game according their rules and believe that those who say "What someone else claims as a find doesn't affect me" are allowing the "cheaters" to degrade the game. I have to say you seem to be well on your way to becoming a puritan. It is reasonable for a person to adopt their own standards for claiming a find. You can choose to only log a found it online when you have signed the physical log. You can choose to only log found it when you personally found the cache and when you cache with others let them know you want to use the huckle-buckle-beanstalk method. The concern I have is that you might be trying to lump what are widely accepted ways to play with activities that truly do degrade geocaching. Stealing geocoins and not trading fairly definitely affect other people's enjoyment of the game. While sometimes this occurs because a player is not familiar with concepts concerning trading, it is certainly reasonable to raise awareness of the proper way to track coins and to consider others who will visit a cache after you when you trade. While I think it is legitimate for a cache owner to allow friends to find a cache before it is published, if this is done in a way that causes another cacher to make a special trip to be FTF, it seems to be at least inconsiderate. Around where I cache, the "beta" finders usually indicate this in the physical log and leave the FTF position free for the FTF'er after the cache is published. By agreement here the FTF after the cache is published gets to claim FTF. But this is not universal. When it comes to FTF, you probably have to tolerate a bit of strangeness since there doesn't seem to be a consensus on these issues yet. Getting upset about not getting FTF is somewhat silly, since there is always a chance some will beat you the cache. If you think someone beat you unfairly just keep your own count of caches that you were the first to find "fairly".