To trespass or not to....that is the question!

[+Rockin Roddy]

A topic on the MiGO forums about this has been going with most favoring one side. What about YOU??

 

A cache is placed in a park that is CLEARLY marked with closing hours (listing mentions this as well). The cache gets published after dark (closing hours) and is waiting for it's FTF! Would you be LEGAL and wait until morning to go after it, or would you break the law, go against the rules of that cache and go after it right then?

 

To further that, would you consider any after hours FTFs tainted? Since no one should be there after hours, does the find count? Should the find be deleted if the owner knows about the after hours search?

 

This is a big concern for me as I'm worried what an after hours hunt would do to my relations with the S.P I am working with to place hides. One side is campground, only campers can hunt after dark there, but the beach, picnic and boat launch areas are on the other side of the road and they watch for trespassers after hours there! If a few rogue cachers were caught, the park MAY ask for the removal of the hides!

 

What say you? Are FTFs a reason to break the law?

[+sbell111]

Did I see the posted hours? If I didn't and I didn't have to hop a fence, I would very likely make the find.

 

To answer what is clearly your primary question, I would not delete the find. If the log mentioned an after-hours search, I would encrypt it and request that the verbiage be changed. If the verbiage was not changed within a reasonable amount of time, I would delete the log and allow the finder to relog the find without the offending verbiage.

Edited June 21, 2007 by sbell111

[+Rockin Roddy]

I doubt the cops will care if you "saw" the posted hours or not. And this isn't about what you saw... FTSOA...the listing has the "not available 24 hrs" attribute marked, posts the hours right in the beginning of the listing, and the park has ONE entrance with a gate which is closed and locked.

 

No, the primary question IS would you go after the FTF (or even just a find) KNOWING the park is closed. Since this is mainly an FTF problem (as some FTF hounds seem to think they're exempt from normal laws), I asked the follow up question as well!

[+sbell111]

I doubt the cops will care if you "saw" the posted hours or not. And this isn't about what you saw... FTSOA...the listing has the "not available 24 hrs" attribute marked, posts the hours right in the beginning of the listing, and the park has ONE entrance with a gate which is closed and locked.

 

No, the primary question IS would you go after the FTF (or even just a find) KNOWING the park is closed. Since this is mainly an FTF problem (as some FTF hounds seem to think they're exempt from normal laws), I asked the follow up question as well!

Knowing that the park was closed, I wouldn't go after it. However, if I didn't see the hours, I wouldn't know it was closed.

 

It is important to remember that attributes do not show up on PQs. Also, I'm reminded of the med trip that I just returned from. All of the caches that I had downloaded went to my GPSr without a problem, but there was some kind of error with about ten percent of the listings that I sent to my pda. I could tell what kind of cache it was, but I was not able to access the description. It is certainly possible that I would have attempted a traditional without the benefit of the cache description since I know that those are at the posted coords. If I did not see a sign at the location giving park hours, I could have looked for the hypothetical cache after hours.

[+Stargazer22]

Personally, no, I wouldn't intentionally go after a cache at night in a park after hours just for a FTF.

It's well known here that most parks close at night and do not allow night caching. Even if I didn't know it was a park and had gone there, once I arrived and realized it was a park, I would not go in at night to cache without checking posted park hours first. It's very common in our area that park officials request no night caching in the parks.

Hey, the FTF would be great, but not at the risk of having geocaching banned from the park.

I think it's especially important for the first few finders to 'play nice' and go by the rules.

If I were the land manager that approved a cache in my area with the stipulation that no one seek it at night and the very first person to come for it came at night, I would wonder about my decision to allow the cache.

A park manager might not understand 'FTF Fever' like a geocacher would.

I think anyone seeking a FTF on any cache at night owes the game the courtesy of checking to see if after hours caching is OK first.

Knowing that some details don't make it to a PQ makes it a priority (and a responsibility in my eyes) to go on the website and look at the details first before heading out.

Edited June 21, 2007 by Stargazer22

[CooeyMB]

Break the law because of a game? No way. I intend to ADD to the reputation of geocachers in the field not take away.

[+D@nim@l]

No.

 

As others have mentioned, behaviors like this only serves to give cachers and caching a black eye, especially in MI where they have worked very hard to work around fees for cache placements. This is what happens when caching turns in to a competition instead of recreation. Also, just because there are no signs does not mean that a law can be violated.

[+sbell111]

...Knowing that some details don't make it to a PQ makes it a priority (and a responsibility in my eyes) to go on the website and look at the details first before heading out.

That's a good plan, but I'm not sure that it is workable in practice.

... Also, just because there are no signs does not mean that a law can be violated.

I imagine that the legality is different in different areas, but I think that if the hours are not posted and there is no locked gate, then you are not breaking a law.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Great points...especially Stargazer22's...you mean you'd actually consider it YOUR responsiblity to check a listing in question? SO WOULD I!! I also love the "add to the game" spirit shown here by you guys!

 

You're right D@nim@l, competition seems to push people into doing things we'd not normally do!

[+StarBrand]

If the cache page clearly stated the park was closed after a certain time and/or the posted hours were visible at the location --- both of which sound true in this case --- NO way.

[+Rockin Roddy]

sbell...we're not talking about going out for an all night romp in the woods. The listing comes up, it's only a few miles down the road (hence the reason you got the notice via email), so you decide to download and go...this wouldn't even get to my PQ for that scenario. Reading the listing (which is the LIKELY course of action), you are confronted with the attribute AND the hours posted right at the top....YOU KNOW!

Edited June 21, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

[+JamGuys]

I believe that this is primarily a question of one's personal morals or geoethics. If the cache owner has clearly stated in the listing that the park is closed at night and I am aware of it, then I would not go after the cache (I don't cache at night anyway!).

 

However, there are times when one's moral limits are tested. I remember a caching run I was on a while back when I had just discovered geocaching. I was out in a rural area about 30 miles away from where I live and there was this one cache on my list. It was supposed to be in a lakeside park that had a monument of some sort. It was a beautiful fall weekend. I found a few other caches in the area then went after this one. I drove up to the park gate only to find that the park was closed for construction. According to my GPSr, the cache was just a few hundred feet beyond the park fence in a wooded area. There was no-one around. I said to myself, "What's the harm? I'll be in and out in a flash". I ignored the sign and went around the gate (or through the fence, I can't remember). It took me about 20 minutes but all the time I was there I felt uneasy. What if someone saw my car parked outside and called the police? What if I slipped and incapacitated myself? What if I was bitten by a snake? I logged the cache and hurried back to my car. I was very relieved when I finally pulled away. The point of this story? I had clearly broken the law and felt guilty about doing so. In retrospect, I should have simply passed on by. The fact is, we face these kind of situations frequently as geocachers and how we respond is essentially a test of our personal morals - and of our ability to rationalize!

Edited June 21, 2007 by JamGuys

[+Kit Fox]

I'm not surprised that this happens at all. There is a small portion of geocachers who can't even be bothered to read the cache page Reading the cache page,---who does it? , and who actively ignore no tresspassing signs. Sadly, this game appeals to selfish individuals that could care less about signs, rules, etc.

 

Other threads pertaining to the same issues.

Missed a FTF for obeying posted hours of operation

 

I don't get it

[vtmtnman]

I'm not surprised that this happens at all. There is a small portion of geocachers who can't even be bothered to read the cache page Reading the cache page,---who does it? , and who actively ignore no tresspassing signs. Sadly, this game appeals to selfish individuals that could care less about signs, rules, etc.

 

Other threads pertaining to the same issues.

Missed a FTF for obeying posted hours of operation

 

I don't get it

I especially like KitFox's posting method of listing other threads that pertain to the current thread.Ahh,the wonders of forum searches.

 

As for me,if I know there are hours to acess the area where a cache is,then I'll abide by those posted hours.Simple as that.

[+Criminal]

Have before, would again.

 

One must keep one’s e&e skills honed.

[+sbell111]

Have before, would again.

 

One must keep one’s e&e skills honed.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I like the link at the bottom of your post Kit!

[vtmtnman]

Have before, would again.

 

One must keep one’s e&e skills honed.

Nice.

[Clan Riffster]

Been there, done that, didn't get a T-shirt...... sort of.

We've got the Little Big Econ State Forest near here, and this place is closed after sunset except for registered campers. There is a stretch of the woods that technically belong to Seminole County due to a right of way, and as such, the closing time cannot be enforced in this strip. This strip includes a bridge over a river.

 

A local hid a night cache that started at the bridge, and after reading the FTF log, I decided to go hunt for it. The problem was, the cache didn't stay in this strip. (No, I never left the "strip") One of the deputies I work with threw a conniption fit because I didn't have a camping permit, and didn't much care that, legally, since I was still within 20' of the roadway, I didn't need a camping permit. Rather than getting his knickers further bunched up, I opted to leave and return on my next night off with the requisite permit. If he had not shown up, I would've been faced with that great moral dilemma, 'To hunt, or not to hunt'. Since I'm a cop, I tend to hold myself to a higher standard than others I've met, and would've probably waived off the hunt once I realized it entered the actual forest proper.

 

The cache was archived right after I got my permit, which kinda bummed me out. As fate would have it, another cacher placed a multi cache in the same set of woods consisting of 5 stand alone micros which give clues to a final regular size cache. This one got published the very same night I was grumbling about having wasted $5 for a permit. I set off, getting to the woods around 4:30am. I nabbed 6 FTF's in one shot.

 

To answer your question, No, I would not knowingly trespass to claim a find.

[+sbell111]

Of course, had you heard a strange noise in those woods, you would have been forced to enter to investigate.

[+briansnat]

A cache is placed in a park that is CLEARLY marked with closing hours (listing mentions this as well). The cache gets published after dark (closing hours) and is waiting for it's FTF! Would you be LEGAL and wait until morning to go after it, or would you break the law, go against the rules of that cache and go after it right then?

 

I can't believe that this is even a subject for debate. Does anybody actually think that geocachers who break the law in pursuit of caches are good for this sport?

 

Keep this nonsense up and we'll be dealing with more South Carolina situations throughout the country.

 

To further that, would you consider any after hours FTFs tainted? Since no one should be there after hours, does the find count? Should the find be deleted if the owner knows about the after hours search?

 

FTF is FTF, nothing can change that. What is tainted in my eyes would be the reputation of the person who disregarded the law and the best interests of this sport for selfish reasons. If I were the owner I'd at least

delete any logs that mention the lawbreaking.

[+Renegade Knight]

...No, the primary question IS would you go after the FTF (or even just a find) KNOWING the park is closed. Since this is mainly an FTF problem (as some FTF hounds seem to think they're exempt from normal laws), I asked the follow up question as well!

 

No. I would honor the park rules. There is an exception. I live across the street from a park. It's my back yard. Even though the city may desire it closed at dusk (it's not posted but there may be a generic law on the books), I may lay on the grass and look at the stars. If you put the cache in that park, I'd get it.

 

As for the FTF. Even if they did get it in blatant violation of the park rules, risking drug users and pickle club membership, they would be FTF.

Edited June 21, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[Mr.Yuck]

A cache is placed in a park that is CLEARLY marked with closing hours (listing mentions this as well). The cache gets published after dark (closing hours) and is waiting for it's FTF! Would you be LEGAL and wait until morning to go after it, or would you break the law, go against the rules of that cache and go after it right then?

 

I can't believe that this is even a subject for debate. Does anybody actually think that geocachers who break the law in pursuit of caches are good for this sport?

 

Keep this nonsense up and we'll be dealing with more South Carolina situations throughout the country.

 

 

I don't think there's too much of a debate, and everyone's basically on the same sheet of music. Of course this casts geocaching in a bad light, and of course people do things they wouldn't nomally do with the competitive nature of the "FTF game".

 

This was quite a problem in my area, around 2005, in small to mid-sized suburban parks, almost always with "dawn to dusk" hours. Plenty o' 2:00 AM flashlight FTFs were had. But it was pretty much brought to people's attention by logs from next morning FTF seekers, or notes posted by irate cache owners. Fast forward to 2007, and I'd say we do a pretty good job of policing ourselves around here, with many a cache description, in addition to the "not 24/7 attribute" having text such as "please respect the dawn to dusk hours of the park". I'm sure there's still a couple knuckleheads around here, but I really don't even pay attention to the FTF's anymore.

 

Edit to add, I say FTF is still FTF.

Edited June 21, 2007 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+Thrak]

A topic on the MiGO forums about this has been going with most favoring one side. What about YOU??

 

A cache is placed in a park that is CLEARLY marked with closing hours (listing mentions this as well). The cache gets published after dark (closing hours) and is waiting for it's FTF! Would you be LEGAL and wait until morning to go after it, or would you break the law, go against the rules of that cache and go after it right then?

 

To further that, would you consider any after hours FTFs tainted? Since no one should be there after hours, does the find count? Should the find be deleted if the owner knows about the after hours search?

 

This is a big concern for me as I'm worried what an after hours hunt would do to my relations with the S.P I am working with to place hides. One side is campground, only campers can hunt after dark there, but the beach, picnic and boat launch areas are on the other side of the road and they watch for trespassers after hours there! If a few rogue cachers were caught, the park MAY ask for the removal of the hides!

 

What say you? Are FTFs a reason to break the law?

 

I'm one of the local FTF folks. Not long ago I found myself outside a local spot that closes for the night. The gate is locked, etc. There is no specific sign saying that ALL access is forbidden - and folks often walk there after the gate is locked. However, it was late at night and I'm pretty darn sure that they don't wan't folks wandering around in there at that time. I left and didn't try for the cache. Another local cacher checked the signs and, since there was no sign specifically forbidding night time activity, went ahead and found the cache. He's welcome to the FTF. I simply wasn't at all comfortable going where I knew I wasn't wanted. The place is actually under the control of the Mendocino Forest folks so I called them the next day to clarify the situation and they specifically told me that nobody was supposed to be in that area at night. I didn't mention geocaching or the person who had gone ahead and made the late night FTF.

 

It's my feeling that, if a place is closed at a certain time - and most have signs specifically stating when you can't be there - then you should stay the heck out. Period. When people have asked me about police vs. geocaching I've always replied that I don't break any laws when caching so I don't worry at all about the police.

 

I do cache in the local park after dark. We have the 3rd largest city park in the country (at least it was the last time I checked). The gates for automobile entrance are closed at night but there is no restriction on use at night. I've been FTF on a moonless night up on a hillside in the park where there is poison oak, rattlesnakes, etc. It may not be very wise but it's not illegal.

Edited June 21, 2007 by Thrak

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

There's no way I'd go into the park after hours for a FTF.

 

Let me say there is also no way I'd stand outside the gate a 7:59 to rush in and catch the offending person's transgression. I mean, assuming the person didn't actually state "I broke the law" this would be the only way you'd know, right?

 

Some people take FTF WAAAAY too seriously.

[+wimseyguy]

I don't give a rat's rear about getting the FTF. But I do like finding caches, and have done so at all hours of the day. If I see posted hours I will obey them and not seek the cache. If I see a closed gate across the road, but there aren't posted hours, I might enter the park to seek the cache. I wouldn't make a big deal about it on my log though.

 

Anyone who knowingly enters a closed managed area simply to score another FTF, or even a find, is a bigger rear than the rat has. More along the size of a jacka** IMO. Land managers pay attention to the activity of the caches on their lands. Anyone who risks the relationship that responsible cachers are developing with park rangers and land managers deserves to keep the FTF as they were the first, but they also deserve some form of punishment/reprimand for the potential consequences of thier selfish actions.

[+briansnat]

Anyone who knowingly enters a closed managed area simply to score another FTF, or even a find, is a bigger rear than the rat has. More along the size of a jacka** IMO. Land managers pay attention to the activity of the caches on their lands. Anyone who risks the relationship that responsible cachers are developing with park rangers and land managers deserves to keep the FTF as they were the first, but they also deserve some form of punishment/reprimand for the potential consequences of thier selfish actions.

 

What I really don't get is when people break the rules, then brag about it in their logs. How dumb is that.

 

Some land managers do read the logs for caches on their lands.

 

I have one cache in a park that does not allow dogs. There are signs at every entrance saying "No Dogs". My cache page says NO DOGS. One finder brought his dog along and mentioned in his log that he saw the signs and disregarded them. I asked him to remove that from the log and he complied, but you have to wonder what goes through these people's heads.

 

Another one was in a park that does not allow mountain bikes. Two finders took to the trails on mountain bikes to find my cache and bragged about it in their logs. When I expressed my disappointment that they would do so, I was basically told to go perform a sexual activity with myself.

[+TrailGators]

There's no way I'd go into the park after hours for a FTF.

 

Let me say there is also no way I'd stand outside the gate a 7:59 to rush in and catch the offending person's transgression. I mean, assuming the person didn't actually state "I broke the law" this would be the only way you'd know, right?

 

Some people take FTF WAAAAY too seriously.

This is what I was thinking...

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

duplicate post

Edited June 21, 2007 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

... No. I would honor the park rules. There is an exception. I live across the street from a park. It's my back yard. Even though the city may desire it closed at dusk (it's not posted but there may be a generic law on the books), I may lay on the grass and look at the stars. If you put the cache in that park, I'd get it.

That bolded part probably sums it up for most of us. We follow the law except when we don't.

 

I've gone into closed parks for a cache, but usually don't.

 

Last time was at None More Southwesterly, on a weekday when the park was only open on weekends. Got stuck in the sand and the Border Patrol and a Park Ranger came and pulled us out. No worries, nice guys, knew about the caches and didn't care. I chose to enter when closed because I will likely never be in the area again. Not justification, just explanation.

 

Before that was exactly your situation - an FTF opportunity on a cache run with six other cachers, small city park, gate closed at night, we walked in and found the cache anyway.

 

Before that it was a small-town baseball field, not marked at all, cops let us find the cache but told us the park was closed at night, they only came because a neighbor had called.

 

Aside from those three I think we've abided by the vast majority of limited access signage and come back when it was open.

 

It's called discretion and situational ethics, and deny it or not most of us exercise them at some time.

[+Miragee]

I have always liked this log for one of my caches where this cacher chose to obey the park hours . . . and miss out on the FTF.

[+Rockin Roddy]

That's a good one Miragee!

 

I'll just say I'm no saint! BUT, after working with the parks I work with, I wouldn't risk a trespass for any reason (and not because of the police). Too much good could be wiped out with one selfish act!

[+Too Tall John]

I doubt the cops will care if you "saw" the posted hours or not. And this isn't about what you saw... FTSOA...the listing has the "not available 24 hrs" attribute marked, posts the hours right in the beginning of the listing, and the park has ONE entrance with a gate which is closed and locked.

 

No, the primary question IS would you go after the FTF (or even just a find) KNOWING the park is closed. Since this is mainly an FTF problem (as some FTF hounds seem to think they're exempt from normal laws), I asked the follow up question as well!

Knowing that the park was closed, I wouldn't go after it. However, if I didn't see the hours, I wouldn't know it was closed.

 

It is important to remember that attributes do not show up on PQs. Also, I'm reminded of the med trip that I just returned from. All of the caches that I had downloaded went to my GPSr without a problem, but there was some kind of error with about ten percent of the listings that I sent to my pda. I could tell what kind of cache it was, but I was not able to access the description. It is certainly possible that I would have attempted a traditional without the benefit of the cache description since I know that those are at the posted coords. If I did not see a sign at the location giving park hours, I could have looked for the hypothetical cache after hours.

"Well, gee, officer... See, my PDA didn't synch with GSAK properly and I couldn't see that the park was closed... Why, no, I didn't see the sign... Probably because I was too busy trying to decide if I should scale the fence or squeeze under the gate... Wait! Why are you getting your handcuffs out...? "

• In the eyes of the law, ignorance is no excuse. Period.
  
• In the eyes of the landowner, ignorance is no excuse. Ever.
  
• Ignorance may be your excuse, but an excuse is just that: an excuse. Not a defense.
  

Read all cache listings, the cache owner may have important information. If you are unfamiliar with an area, keep an eye open for signs, and obey them. Don't spoil it for the rest of us.

Edited June 21, 2007 by Too Tall John

[+imajeep]

That's easy--We'd respect the posted hours.

 

Face it--to muggles, we look like drug users who are looking for goods in secret stashes. In the current environment of generalized paranoia, we probably look to some of them like terrorists.

 

What keeps us on the side of the angels, as far as LEOs are concerned, is that we are boy (and girl ) scouts. We get permission before placing cahes, we obey the law, we are family-friendly, and we clean up after other people. All of that goes out the window once we start getting caught in parks after posted hours. Ask yourself this: Is a FTF worth having some parks bureaucrat ban caches in a large park system because a dozen GCers have been nabbed prowling around after dark?

 

The first person who claims they didn't know the posted hours will probably get away with it. The thirteenth will probably get caches banned. FTFs are fun (how the heck would we know; we don't have any yet! ), but hardly worth raising the ire of those on whose goodwill we depend.

[+New England n00b]

I've gone into a park after it closed for the night, but I had NO idea that it (and all city parks) closed after dusk. No signs at the trail I went in, and never thought much about it. I later read another log on another cache advising that all city parks were dawn-dusk only - so I never went back in after dark. Simple as that.

 

If we play nice, hopefully land managers will appreciate that and allow expanded geocaching in currently restricted places. The more people act like jerks, there will be less expansion - and I would not blame the managers one bit.

[CoyoteRed]

What say you? Are FTFs a reason to break the law?

Nope.

[+Harry Dolphin]

What say you? Are FTFs a reason to break the law?

 

Nope. If the park's closed, then it's closed. Wait for it to open in the morning for the FTF.

[+Runaround]

I'm a geocaching volunteer for the Cleveland Metroparks in addition to volunteering for other programs. This has given me many chances to discuss various issues with the park rangers. They admit to routinely citing people for being in the parks after hours although I've yet to hear of a cacher being cited. You can plead ignorance but the fine is still $200 plus court costs. Having your vehicle towed is just a bonus.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Had to walk away from the MiGO forums thread discussing this...one cacher there (whom we sometimes see here as well) has actually tried his best to justify his actions...and then when that wouldn't work, he suggests he'd LIE to the LEO and not say he was caching! Pretty 14 yr old(ish) acting IMHO. But then. even MY 14 yr old has more respect than that!

 

Would it be so hard to actually OBEY THE LAW??

Edited June 22, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

[+flask]

i vote "no" on the trespassing. the police do not care if you didn't see the posted hours, even if you didn't see them because you're from out of town and the sign isn't near the entrance and it's hard to find in the dark.

 

sound like the voice of experience?

 

anyway, it's just bad manners to go against posted hours. your host deserves better.

[booksmart_streetdumb]

I would definitally say no, however it doesn't really have anything to do with geocaching. As my mom would say, I'm a 'perf'. I would just feel way to uneasy in that situation. I don't think I would have any fun because I'd constantly be checking my back, and feeling guilty. That's just the way I am though: I'm the 'loser' in most groups saying, "Come on guys, I really don't think that we should do this...." It works well with the people I cache with though: it takes a daring, adventurous person to find some caches, but you also need someone like me to make sure nothing too stupid or illegal takes place. It's a nice balance!

 

(Of course, if I had a drink at lunch time, I wouldn't drive for the rest of the day, so sometimes I'm a bit too conservative )

 

...

• In the eyes of the law, ignorance is no excuse. Period.
  
• In the eyes of the landowner, ignorance is no excuse. Ever.
  
• Ignorance may be your excuse, but an excuse is just that: an excuse. Not a defense.
  

...

 

Exactly what I would have said. After taking a law class, that was the thing that stuck in my brain the most: ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. In Canada, at least, it is your responsibility as a citizen to become aware of any laws that will affect you.

[+Confucius' Cat]

No reason to KNOWINGLY break the law (or landowner rules) to get a cache. Period, full-stop, 30, end of sentence.

 

But with that criterion, a lot of people would need to remove and archive their caches that require going off-trail also. Gee, that will just about put an end to caching in most parks.

 

Permission trumps "off trail" fortunately.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I think...

 

 

at this point there's no temptation to argue in favor of going in after dark.

[+Knight2000]

What amazes me is that this is even a question.

 

Not that the OP asked it. But that it has to be asked. I understand why it was asked, and dont have a problem with it.

Edited June 22, 2007 by knight2000

[+Two Geeks and a GPS]

What I really don't get is when people break the rules, then brag about it in their logs. How dumb is that

 

We had a guy describe exactly how to get around paying the toll to the park (two dollars! ) in his log!

I had met with the park person for permission to place the cache and he created an account to "watch" the cache. I emailed the finder who changed his log. The park guy never said anything but I still couldn't believe it!

There was a cache that we tried that had the gate across the drive and we were going to leave when a sheriff pulled up, he said that they never open the gate in the winter (during the day, posted dawn to dusk) but it was perfectly legal for us to enter...we did.

We have also been to the park right before opening (gate still across) and were going to leave but the ranger showed up and said that the park technically closed for another 1/2 hour but he let us in.

 

Man the MiGO forums are getting more and more like these forums every day. Not exactly a good thing.

[+Renegade Knight]

I'm a geocaching volunteer for the Cleveland Metroparks in addition to volunteering for other programs. This has given me many chances to discuss various issues with the park rangers. They admit to routinely citing people for being in the parks after hours although I've yet to hear of a cacher being cited. You can plead ignorance but the fine is still $200 plus court costs. Having your vehicle towed is just a bonus.

 

Since your in the industry.

 

What problem are they trying to solve by having posted hours punishable by a fine?

 

I'm working under the assumption there is a problem because if it was common practice for good citizens to enjoy the park at all hours then there would be no reason for a rule.

[+Renegade Knight]

No reason to KNOWINGLY break the law (or landowner rules) to get a cache. Period, full-stop, 30, end of sentence.

 

But with that criterion, a lot of people would need to remove and archive their caches that require going off-trail also. Gee, that will just about put an end to caching in most parks.

 

Permission trumps "off trail" fortunately.

 

Mot parks have grass you are supposed to walk on. It's only certain parks that have paved and improved trails that you are supposed to stay on. Interestingly enough in my area the ones without formal stay on the trail rules are the ones most likely to have posted hours. Meanwhile the ones with trails let you stay there all night if you wish.

Edited June 22, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[+Knight2000]

What problem are they trying to solve by having posted hours punishable by a fine?

I don't view it as a problem trying to be solved. Its just the way it is. The way Cleveland wants their parks i imagine. Maybe too many negative things can happen there at night to have a good handle on the situation. Whatever the reasoning, it is still their parks and their rules should be followed.

 

If someone decides to violate whatever rules then consequences should be in effect.

[+Two Geeks and a GPS]

What problem are they trying to solve by having posted hours punishable by a fine?

 

Any kind of problems. As a veteran of several Cleveland Metroparks adventures (grew up there). The roads thru the parks are through roads and have many turnouts.....ideally suited for teenage shenanigans of every conceivable type. I know. In my youth I was busted for several of the possibilities. I was always told to "be on your way" never a fine (or worse)...but it could have happened, and probably should happen.

geocaching isn't the reason, other (more sinister) things happen in parks, at night.

[+Renegade Knight]

What problem are they trying to solve by having posted hours punishable by a fine?

I don't view it as a problem trying to be solved. Its just the way it is. ...

 

Any time you create a rule, you create the need to enforce it. You create citizen who will phone in other citizens in violation of the rule. You will create problems like the Stargazers club who met every tuesday all summer at hte park on the edge of town who now can't meet and star gaze. Because having rules creates problems just from having them...they should solve a problem worse than the ones they create.