To trespass or not to....that is the question!

[+Renegade Knight]

What problem are they trying to solve by having posted hours punishable by a fine?

 

Any kind of problems. As a veteran of several Cleveland Metroparks adventures (grew up there). The roads thru the parks are through roads and have many turnouts.....ideally suited for teenage shenanigans of every conceivable type. I know. In my youth I was busted for several of the possibilities. I was always told to "be on your way" never a fine (or worse)...but it could have happened, and probably should happen.

geocaching isn't the reason, other (more sinister) things happen in parks, at night.

 

Thanks.

[+TeamBarstool]

What say you? Are FTFs a reason to break the law?

 

no

[+The Jester]

I claimed "FLF" (First Legal Finder) on this cache. The first listed their find at 7 am in the log and the area opened at 10 am. It started a small discussion in the NW forum.

[+sbell111]

I doubt the cops will care if you "saw" the posted hours or not. And this isn't about what you saw... FTSOA...the listing has the "not available 24 hrs" attribute marked, posts the hours right in the beginning of the listing, and the park has ONE entrance with a gate which is closed and locked.

 

No, the primary question IS would you go after the FTF (or even just a find) KNOWING the park is closed. Since this is mainly an FTF problem (as some FTF hounds seem to think they're exempt from normal laws), I asked the follow up question as well!

Knowing that the park was closed, I wouldn't go after it. However, if I didn't see the hours, I wouldn't know it was closed.

 

It is important to remember that attributes do not show up on PQs. Also, I'm reminded of the med trip that I just returned from. All of the caches that I had downloaded went to my GPSr without a problem, but there was some kind of error with about ten percent of the listings that I sent to my pda. I could tell what kind of cache it was, but I was not able to access the description. It is certainly possible that I would have attempted a traditional without the benefit of the cache description since I know that those are at the posted coords. If I did not see a sign at the location giving park hours, I could have looked for the hypothetical cache after hours.

"Well, gee, officer... See, my PDA didn't synch with GSAK properly and I couldn't see that the park was closed... Why, no, I didn't see the sign... Probably because I was too busy trying to decide if I should scale the fence or squeeze under the gate... Wait! Why are you getting your handcuffs out...? "

• In the eyes of the law, ignorance is no excuse. Period.
  
• In the eyes of the landowner, ignorance is no excuse. Ever.
  
• Ignorance may be your excuse, but an excuse is just that: an excuse. Not a defense.
  

Read all cache listings, the cache owner may have important information. If you are unfamiliar with an area, keep an eye open for signs, and obey them. Don't spoil it for the rest of us.

First of all, I clearly expressed that if the gate was locked, I wouldn't enter. Please don't twist my position to try to egg on an argument.

 

My position, of course, is simple. If I am not aware of the park hours, either because I failed to get that cache into my pda or forgot my pda or missed the posted sign, I may end up looking for a cache after hours. Certainly, it could happen.

 

If I was then approached by a LEO, The conversation would most likely go like this: "I'm sorry, sir, I didn't realize that the park was closed." "Yes, sir. I will leave immediately."

Edited June 22, 2007 by sbell111

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

First, let me reiterate I don't find caches in closed areas. I might have found a total of 3 caches before 10 A.M. I ain't an early morning or late night cacher. (except for designated night caches)

 

If I was then approached by a LEO, The conversation would most likely go like this: "I'm sorry, sir, I didn't realize that the park was closed." "Yes, sir. I will leave immediately."

 

I agree this is how it would go in 98.2 % of situations. Not to say that makes it okay. You'd probably never get caught for littering as well, but you shouldn't do it. I do think some of the doom and gloom results discussed here are a bit over the top.

 

I doubt the cops will care if you "saw" the posted hours or not.

 

This topic would have been easier for me to stomach if it was just about caching in closed parks and not wrapped around disgruntlement over FTF.

[+sbell111]

What problem are they trying to solve by having posted hours punishable by a fine?

I don't view it as a problem trying to be solved. Its just the way it is. The way Cleveland wants their parks i imagine. Maybe too many negative things can happen there at night to have a good handle on the situation. Whatever the reasoning, it is still their parks and their rules should be followed.

 

If someone decides to violate whatever rules then consequences should be in effect.

Several years ago, I was reading an article regarding NYC's Central Park. There was a problem with crime after-hours in the park. They also had a rule against dogwalking in the park after certain hours. One of the things they did to reduce drime was to invite people to walk their larger dogs in the park at whatever hours they wanted.

 

This reduced crime somewhat because it took away the criminal's private place. It also allowed private citizens to participate in an activity that caused no harm.

Edited June 22, 2007 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

I guess that I'm a little confused as to why this thread was started. Per the OP, the topic was fully discussed in the MIGO forums and the OP was satisfied with the general concensus.

 

Was it just brought over here to ratchet up the angst meter?

[+Rockin Roddy]

GHH...this isn't a disgruntlement about FTFs as I hadn't been the one beaten to it (in this scenario), this IS all about the fact that some would think they can break the law just for an FTF or ANY cache. Some use the FTF as justification for this action!

 

Sbell, when this was started, Iwas thoroughly disgusted with the way the conversation was going in the MiGo forums. AND, no, the person in question in the MiGO forums has NOT changed their stance since the ones in question AREN'T the ones who started the topic. the one's in question just came up with ways to lie about their reasons for being in the park after hours.

 

To ratchet up the angst?? Maybe, but more likely because I wondered how many felt like those that were FOR trespassing in the MiGO forums...please don't second guess my reasons to just egg on an argument!

 

I like the idea of allowing cachers to roam the parks at all hours, it would likely have an effect on the crime in some. However, I don't know if allowing cachers in SOME parks would be safe or good for cachers...maybe if they had big dogs...

[+D@nim@l]

 

This topic would have been easier for me to stomach if it was just about caching in closed parks and not wrapped around disgruntlement over FTF.

 

They go hand in hand. Chances are that no one would go in that closed park to be STF, TTF, etc. (unless of course they were trying for the FTF and got beat). The thrill is gone and it's business as usual.

[+sbell111]

This topic would have been easier for me to stomach if it was just about caching in closed parks and not wrapped around disgruntlement over FTF.

They go hand in hand. Chances are that no one would go in that closed park to be STF, TTF, etc. (unless of course they were trying for the FTF and got beat). The thrill is gone and it's business as usual.

I suspect that most people who would knowingly go into a closed park to cache would do it whether or not they are on a FTF run.

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

Seeing how the conversation began at MIGO, I believe we would have never heard about this if the night cacher was the 8th person to log the cache. The OP over there makes a big deal about being the "first legal to find" on multiple caches.

 

Though caching in closed parks is wrong, I doubt we would have been made aware of this situation if the precious FTF wasn't in question.

[+Rockin Roddy]

At any rate, a black eye is a black eye and I'm glad this WAS brought up for discussion! As a newb, I might not have even cared the park was closed (and sometimes didn't). Now that I better understand the complications this action can cause, I'm glad to see this brought out for all to read!

 

You see, before I started working with the parks as I now do, I hadn't really given thought to how my actions affect others!

[+Knight2000]

Any time you create a rule, you create the need to enforce it. You create citizen who will phone in other citizens in violation of the rule. You will create problems like the Stargazers club who met every tuesday all summer at hte park on the edge of town who now can't meet and star gaze. Because having rules creates problems just from having them...they should solve a problem worse than the ones they create.

Although it took a little time for me to assimilate. It was a good answer RK.

[+Rockin Roddy]

That all goes back to the fact that a few bad actions ruins it for all! A good way to help solve that problem would be to talk with TPTB and work out an agreement allowing cachers (or the Stargazer's club...or whomever) to use the area at all hours. One good point for the argument would be that geocachers are law abiding citizens who would actually help to police the area.

[+sbell111]

Sometimes, but not always, the decision to close a park at night is cost related. I think we can agree that people are more likely to break or lose themselves in the woods at night. Some people are fearful of the cost associated with that breakage or lossage so they close the area.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I was going to mention that in the MiGO forums...sometimes it comes down to insurance! Some parks just can't afford to insure use at night, thus the park is closed at night! If you were to get hurt, lost or stuck (as in on a cliff needing rescued) while trespassing in one of those parks, you MIGHT run the risk of being sued yourself (to compensate those that had to come out and rescue you or whatever).

 

That, BTW, was the reason we couldn't have a night cache for our event...but we could use the park for caching after dark. The reason being: As a camper in the park, you are covered day or night. As a cacher coming out to find a cache after hours, you are NOT covered!

[+PJPeters]

I've noticed a couple posts about people ducking into their neighborhood park after hours to grab the FTF. Why? If it's the neighborhood park, you can just set the alarm early enough to get out there when the park is open and go for it. It's not worth torqueing off the land managers, make them come up with more 'permits,' fees, or other miscelaneous hoops to jump through.

 

On the other hand, what about asking the reviewer, when publishing the cache, to not allow it to release until the park opens? Is that possible? Then, the issue becomes semi-moot.

[+Renegade Knight]

...On the other hand, what about asking the reviewer, when publishing the cache, to not allow it to release until the park opens? Is that possible? Then, the issue becomes semi-moot.

 

It would be nice if they had a "cache timer" for when you would like your listing published. Then the reviewer can do their job. Then the cache timer will automaticly publish when the right time is reached. No need for the reviewer to hang out by the computer...

[+TrailGators]

...On the other hand, what about asking the reviewer, when publishing the cache, to not allow it to release until the park opens? Is that possible? Then, the issue becomes semi-moot.

 

It would be nice if they had a "cache timer" for when you would like your listing published. Then the reviewer can do their job. Then the cache timer will automaticly publish when the right time is reached. No need for the reviewer to hang out by the computer...

That is a good idea...

[+Criminal]

How come everyone ‘assumes’ they will be getting caught? That seems defeatist to me.

[+Criminal]

Stupit server lag double posts

Edited June 22, 2007 by Criminal

[+Miragee]

...On the other hand, what about asking the reviewer, when publishing the cache, to not allow it to release until the park opens? Is that possible? Then, the issue becomes semi-moot.

It would be nice if they had a "cache timer" for when you would like your listing published. Then the reviewer can do their job. Then the cache timer will automaticly publish when the right time is reached. No need for the reviewer to hang out by the computer...

That is a good idea...

I agree. I wonder if Raine can code such a thing into the final step of Reviewing a cache?

[+StarBrand]

.......I agree. I wonder if Raine can code such a thing into the final step of Reviewing a cache?

Been suggested many times - would have to be restricted to a fixed time frame - so that folks don't set the timer for absurd periods of time - like 5 years away.

[Mr.Yuck]

.......I agree. I wonder if Raine can code such a thing into the final step of Reviewing a cache?

Been suggested many times - would have to be restricted to a fixed time frame - so that folks don't set the timer for absurd periods of time - like 5 years away.

 

True. I asked once for daylight (morning) publication in a reviewer note, and my attentive reviewer was very happy to grant my request.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Criminal...I don't "assume" anything, it's just always a good possiblity that someone near the park will call about activity, an LEO will see the flashlights, an officer sees your car parked in front of the BIG sign saying closed etc etc...there are so many possibilities the odds are in the favor of being caught sooner or later (especially if one were to regularly break the trespass laws).

 

BUT...why risk the chance at all? Is it really soooo very difficult to just obey the laws and cache during open hours? I know, there are some places that one would have little fear of getting caught at, but the parks that are smack in the middle of housing etc...

 

I like the idea of a timer (would make the reviewer's job easier), Rusty (our reviewer) has done a SUPER job of handling "special requests", but it would be a much easier job for them!

 

edit to say I since I can't speak for everyone!

Edited June 22, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

[+sbell111]

How come everyone ‘assumes’ they will be getting caught? That seems defeatist to me.

[+Criminal]

...it's just always a good possiblity that someone near the park will call about activity, an LEO will see the flashlights, an officer sees your car parked in front of the BIG sign saying closed etc etc...

See activity? Flashlights? Park near the entrance? You're doing it all wrong. You'd never last a day behind enemy lines.

 

BUT...why risk the chance at all?

Because that may well be the only real adventure of finding that cache type.

[+PJPeters]

How come everyone ‘assumes’ they will be getting caught? That seems defeatist to me.

There once was this guy named "Murphy." He took one look at me, and my life, and immediately wrote what has since become a Law: If anything can go wrong, it will - to PJ. That's how it was supposed to read.

[+Rockin Roddy]

ummm...no enemy lines here Criminal The "thrill factor" of going into the park after hours is lost on me...but then, so is the thrill of bank robbery, car theft etc.

 

So you can't have fun LEGALLY while caching? How about not doing that "lame" cache altogether instead of breaking the law? You CAN skip those "less exciting" ones!

[Clan Riffster]

Amazing...

[+"we two want to play too"]

...it's just always a good possiblity that someone near the park will call about activity, an LEO will see the flashlights, an officer sees your car parked in front of the BIG sign saying closed etc etc...

See activity? Flashlights? Park near the entrance? You're doing it all wrong. You'd never last a day behind enemy lines.

 

BUT...why risk the chance at all?

Because that may well be the only real adventure of finding that cache type.

 

 

I have to admit (bad cacher, bad!) I have broken the time of entry rules at least three times. Once in a cemetery, once in a park and once in Chicago. (Hubby is laughing at me right now...RULES?!? HA!!)

 

In Chicago, we had just spent the day doing the BoB's. We had a stop at a gated park, the gate was closed. We pulled up and parked. I stayed in the car, hubby went for the cache, flashlight in hand. 2.3 seconds later, a LEO also pulled up. He explained that the park was closed, but gave us permission to finish.

 

The second time, I drove across the state for a specific FTF. My timing was off and I ended up at the cemetery 45 minutes before dawn. I waited for 15 minutes. Decided to risk going in and then having to explain what I was doing rather than waiting on the side of the road and then trying to explain what I intended to do....

 

The third time, and most recent, I again drove across the state on a mission. I knew the park hours. They were posted on the cache page. I even managed to get myself lost on the way. Still, I managed to arrive 1/2 an hour before the park officially opened. The gate was open, I drove in. I actually went to the ranger office to pay the entrance fee and to make sure it would be o.k. for me to pop in a little early. The ranger's office area was gated shut! Kept my money, snagged the cache and scooted.

 

Perhaps I shouldn't travel so far anymore...

Edited June 23, 2007 by "we two want to play too"

[+flask]

...it's just always a good possiblity that someone near the park will call about activity, an LEO will see the flashlights, an officer sees your car parked in front of the BIG sign saying closed etc etc...

See activity? Flashlights? Park near the entrance? You're doing it all wrong. You'd never last a day behind enemy lines.

 

BUT...why risk the chance at all?

Because that may well be the only real adventure of finding that cache type.

 

 

I have to admit (bad cacher, bad!) I have broken the time of entry rules at least three times. Once in a cemetery, once in a park and once in Chicago. (Hubby is laughing at me right now...RULES?!? HA!!)

 

In Chicago, we had just spent the day doing the BoB's. We had a stop at a gated park, the gate was closed. We pulled up and parked. I stayed in the car, hubby went for the cache, flashlight in hand. 2.3 seconds later, a LEO also pulled up. He explained that the park was closed, but gave us permission to finish.

 

The second time, I drove across the state for a specific FTF. My timing was off and I ended up at the cemetery 45 minutes before dawn. I waited for 15 minutes. Decided to risk going in and then having to explain what I was doing rather than waiting on the side of the road and then trying to explain what I intended to do....

 

The third time, and most recent, I again drove across the state on a mission. I knew the park hours. They were posted on the cache page. I even managed to get myself lost on the way. Still, I managed to arrive 1/2 an hour before the park officially opened. The gate was open, I drove in. I actually went to the ranger office to pay the entrance fee and to make sure it would be o.k. for me to pop in a little early. The ranger's office area was gated shut! Kept my money, snagged the cache and scooted.

 

Perhaps I shouldn't travel so far anymore...

 

what really worries me is that you keep arriving BEFORE the park opens. if you had any decency, you'd be squeezing out the last of the daylight instead.

[+Confucius' Cat]

<snip>

I like the idea of allowing cachers to roam the parks at all hours, it would likely have an effect on the crime in some. However, I don't know if allowing cachers in SOME parks would be safe or good for cachers...maybe if they had big dogs...

More cachers mugged?

 

How come everyone ‘assumes’ they will be getting caught? That seems defeatist to me.

What i don't understand is how it makes it right if you don't get caught.

 

My belief system:

 

Black is black, white is white. Right is right, wrong is wrong. many times it is hard to tell which is which. Not getting caught, like not recognizing impropriety for what it is, does not change black to white or wrong to right.

 

Neither does changing its name. No matter how many times you say a lump of coal is white, it will still in reality be black.

 

Beliefs may vary... in at least that much, we are a free country.

[+sbell111]

How come everyone ‘assumes’ they will be getting caught? That seems defeatist to me.

What i don't understand is how it makes it right if you don't get caught.

 

My belief system:

 

Black is black, white is white. Right is right, wrong is wrong. many times it is hard to tell which is which. Not getting caught, like not recognizing impropriety for what it is, does not change black to white or wrong to right.

 

Neither does changing its name. No matter how many times you say a lump of coal is white, it will still in reality be black.

 

Beliefs may vary... in at least that much, we are a free country.

Have you ever driven over the posted speed limit?

[Clan Riffster]

The mantra of The Great Dark Horde: "Admit nothing, deny everything, demand proof"

[+flask]

How come everyone ‘assumes’ they will be getting caught? That seems defeatist to me.

What i don't understand is how it makes it right if you don't get caught.

 

My belief system:

 

Black is black, white is white. Right is right, wrong is wrong. many times it is hard to tell which is which. Not getting caught, like not recognizing impropriety for what it is, does not change black to white or wrong to right.

 

Neither does changing its name. No matter how many times you say a lump of coal is white, it will still in reality be black.

 

Beliefs may vary... in at least that much, we are a free country.

Have you ever driven over the posted speed limit?

 

yep. degrees of seriousness of an offense do not prevent a thing from being an offense. not being caught does not make it right according to the law, nor does failure to be caught remove the culpability in violations of morality.

 

i don't think this thread is really about splitting hairs about legal vs. moral questions, but rather whether it is acceptable to break geocaching guidelines and local, state, or federal laws in order to get a FTF.

 

remember knives? nearly nobody thought it was an ethical issue to place one in a cache. we had to adopt the "no knives" stand in order to keep geocaching from being banned in some locales.

 

if you hold yourself to be above the law in order to fetch you one more FTF, you are creating an opportunity for geocaching to be banned from that area in the case that you are caught, or in the case that neighbors complain about nocturnal activity. you are undercutting geocachers who abide by the rules, which is unfair.

 

clouding the issue with the speed limit probably isn't part of this particular debate.

 

it is quite possible to believe that what's wrong is wrong whether or not you get caught AND drive over the speed limits sometimes. we could go into a debate about which offenses are too small to count, or whether moral absolutes are really absolute, or whether you are obliged to obey laws to which you are opposed, but really what's going on is the simple question of whether or not it is acceptable to break the law in order to get a FTF bearing in mind that this both places law-abiding cachers at a disadvantage, and has the potential to represent geocachers as a group poorly in the eyes of the host community.

 

of course there will always be cachers who hold themselves above rules and consider it great fun. they will adopt the position of i'll-do-what-i-want-and-nuts-to-you. they will sneer at people who DO follow the rules, as if we don't understand how swell it is to break them. that sort of person just seems cheesy to me.

 

as i said to an eigth grader recently, "no. we give better than we get. we do not return that garbage; we do not stoop to that level."

[+Rockin Roddy]

Great thoughts Flask!! Very well thought out and written! THANKS!! Sounds like you are setting a GREAT example to be followed by all!

[+flask]

Great thoughts Flask!! Very well thought out and written! THANKS!! Sounds like you are setting a GREAT example to be followed by all!

 

aw, shucks.

 

regrettably i am not always as good a person as i'd like to be.

 

and i HAVE been caught in a park after hours, although the sign posting said hours (dawn to dusk) was not near the entrance and we did not see it. it was also only five o'clock in the afternoon. that time of year the sun sets at four-thirty.

 

the police were called by a caretaker having a cigarette under a really big NO SMOKING sign. he could have told us the park was closed as we passed by him, only about twenty feet away.

 

it does not excuse us, but perhaps mitigates it some. the responding officer was self-important and officious. we were apologetic. instead of looking for other caches in that town, we moved on.

[+"we two want to play too"]

Hear, Hear!!

 

VERY well spoken!

 

btw: sunrise vs. sunset...?!? I go in the morning because it is after work and gives me time to search (or get lost) If I went in the evening, I would need to be back in time for work, not quite so flexible.

[+Confucius' Cat]

How come everyone ‘assumes’ they will be getting caught? That seems defeatist to me.

What i don't understand is how it makes it right if you don't get caught.

 

My belief system:

 

Black is black, white is white. Right is right, wrong is wrong. many times it is hard to tell which is which. Not getting caught, like not recognizing impropriety for what it is, does not change black to white or wrong to right.

 

Neither does changing its name. No matter how many times you say a lump of coal is white, it will still in reality be black.

 

Beliefs may vary... in at least that much, we are a free country.

Have you ever driven over the posted speed limit?

Glad you asked, sir.

 

Actually, i HAVE driven over the posted limit and in fact i used to do so deliberately.

 

last year I got a speeding ticket from an officer of the agency for whom i do most of my work. At that time i came to a cosmic revelation.

 

Mind you, I drove at a reasonable speed. My ticket was 79/70.

 

In the past, I liked to get to where i was going as quickly as reasonably possible in order to minimize the police radio down time so that officers would not get shot because their radios didn't work (don't ask- it's the mantra they always chant when their radios act up).

 

The revelation? Oh yes... you see, sir, I get paid by th HOUR. So I came to the realisation that the longer it takes me to get to the site, THE MORE I GET PAID. The real beauty of it is that THEY CAN"T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT because to ask me to break the law would be illegal, unethical and immoral.

 

The way i see it, I stand to make somewhere between $2000- $3000 per year additional overtime SIMPLY BY OBEYING THE SPEED LIMIT. i think you could call that's a WIN-WIN situation, no?

 

I know you intended your response to be smart ***, but you see, obeying the law ALWAYS has benefits.

 

To answer your REAL question, NO I am not perfect. I don't recall ever claiming to be. And I didn't direct my comments at any one nor make any personal attacks.

[+simpjkee]

I wouldnt trespass through someone's back yard or anything, but sure I have trespassed. here's two examples.

 

1. I was walking to caches and there were 2 parks seperated by a big open deserty area that was abandoned except for a halfway falling over barbed wire fence with a rusty no trespassing sign. To go around the area would have added at least a mile to my overall walk. So i said screw it and trespassed across it. Looked like the fence was really more for trying to keep ATV's and such out. Kids commonly get on their ATV's and motocross bikes and trying doing jumps and such on private property. I imagine a bunch end up getting themselves hurt and such. anyway

 

2. It was 1:30am and there was a small park that had a sign that said Park closed from 10pm to 6am, subject to $2500 fine, etc. I was just about 20 yards away from a metal trashcan and i knew from the cache description that it was a magnetic key case so again i said screw it and ran in, grabbed the cache, ran out, signed the log, ran in, placed the cache, and then ran out. I was only in the park for 2 mins total.

 

I dont think these things are a big deal, but no way anyway should be jumping in peoples backyards and stuff.

[+Rockin Roddy]

That's where troubles can happen Simpjkee. What would have happened if you had been caught by a more than righteous LEO while in that park for the 2 minutes? I know it's a long shot, but the down side is that you ran the risk of having that cache (and others) banned from that park (and any other park that are in the care of the park in question). Would it be worth it to cause that big a problem over something you could have easily went back after during operating hours??

 

It's not just you that you would have hurt in that instance...caching really needs GOOD publicity these days, not a black eye! If others can be affected by your actions, you should consider that and act responsibly!

 

Driving fast CAN affect others (an accident could injure others or worse), but it's mostly the speeder who gets in trouble, trespassing after hours hurts geocachers everywhere.

[+simpjkee]

That's where troubles can happen Simpjkee. What would have happened if you had been caught by a more than righteous LEO while in that park for the 2 minutes? I know it's a long shot, but the down side is that you ran the risk of having that cache (and others) banned from that park (and any other park that are in the care of the park in question). Would it be worth it to cause that big a problem over something you could have easily went back after during operating hours??

 

It's not just you that you would have hurt in that instance...caching really needs GOOD publicity these days, not a black eye! If others can be affected by your actions, you should consider that and act responsibly!

 

those park fines/hours really are there to scare off teenagers and such who maybe in the park at night drinking and such. if lets say someone saw me, I would say "I dropped something here earlier and I was trying to find it before something happened to it." then whoever saw me would say "well the park is closed sonny" and I would say "yeah i know Im just leaving" and then they say "alright, park opens back up at 6am" and i say "thank you sir" and they say "no problem". harmless and geocaching is never involved.

 

now if I was in there drinking and such then they might decide to actually take steps to discipline me, in which case geocaching still wouldnt be involved.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Except an LEO wouldn't KNOW you were only there to find something and some wouldn't really care. There's a good chance they are going to assume the worst first (true, you might get away with it...OR, you COULD end up down town because Johnny Law needed one more bust to make quota...and $2500 is a nice chunk of change). Rules are rules and if we can't follow them, we could find ourselves very limited on where we can play!

 

What about the GPS unit you're bound to be holding? Some LEOs know what caching is and could put 2+2 together. In the end, you are risking this sport for the sake of a cache.

 

Again, I'm no saint, I've done this very thing myself...but after having worked with our local S.P system, I can tell you that ONE bad egg could and likely would cause troubles in their parks And we have a good relations with our S.Ps here in MI...that may not be the case at the park in question (or ANY for that matter). Maybe TPTB are just begging for a reason to ban caching (possibly tired of dealing with us that just can't obey simple laws).

[+Renegade Knight]

...I know you intended your response to be smart ***, but you see, obeying the law ALWAYS has benefits....

 

Doing the right thing always has beneifits and may result in some bad consequences. The law may or may not be right.

 

A good part of life is knowing when to break the law and why that's the right thing to do. If any of us come to the aid of someone in the park if it's just after dusk and the park is closed we have done the right thing in complete voilation of the law.

 

A lot of laws exest to solve a problem but end up punishing the regular citizens. Take park hours. If they close parks at night so "nobody will be there who's up to no good" then they have just made that park all the more attractive to the very people who they don't want there. They have done so because for all intents and purposes they have banned the honest who would report something odd.

[Clan Riffster]

if lets say someone saw me, I would say "I dropped something here earlier and I was trying to find it before something happened to it." then whoever saw me would say "well the park is closed sonny" and I would say "yeah i know Im just leaving" and then they say "alright, park opens back up at 6am" and i say "thank you sir" and they say "no problem". harmless and geocaching is never involved.

As someone who has arrested countless goobers in parks after hours, (and released countless others), I can attest that this is how 75% of my conversations go. We call it "no harm, no foul" and send the offender on their way. The ones we focus our energies on are the ones who are not only trespassing, but are also being loud, drunk, stupid, etc.

[+Criminal]

Whatever happened to the new way of playing the geocaching game? I thought we were letting everyone play the game ‘their way’ now.

[+Rockin Roddy]

That argument doesn't fit in this Criminal since "your way" is illegal! Sure, all for having fun playing "your way" unless it adversely affects how others can play (if allowed to play at all). It seems a bit selfish IMHO that someone would blatently disregard the law to make the game "more enjoyable" for themselves while risking the sport for others.

 

We're not talking LPCs or micros here, we're talking the law...there should be no "grey area" when it comes to that!

[+simpjkee]

Except an LEO wouldn't KNOW you were only there to find something and some wouldn't really care. There's a good chance they are going to assume the worst first (true, you might get away with it...OR, you COULD end up down town because Johnny Law needed one more bust to make quota...and $2500 is a nice chunk of change). Rules are rules and if we can't follow them, we could find ourselves very limited on where we can play!

 

What about the GPS unit you're bound to be holding? Some LEOs know what caching is and could put 2+2 together. In the end, you are risking this sport for the sake of a cache.

 

so......IF the copper showed up in the 2 minute time frame I was actually in the park (running in the dark); and IF the copper was desperately trying to fill a quota; and IF he saw my GPS; and IF he knew what geocaching was; and IF he put 2+2 together; then MAYBE I MIGHT give the sport a black eye

 

oh boy......you're right. I guess i shoulda come back to the cache

[+wildchld97]

In my general life activities, I really try hard to *not* get on the bad side of the law. Sometimes I do...(speeding ticket and a DUI) dumb things that I did which I paid dearly for...and have LEARNED from the experience. Tresspassing doesn't seem like a big deal, but dammit..if you are caught and THEN try to explain that "you were just geocaching" YOU give a bad name to a game that is STILL seriously misunderstood.

 

People that knowingly trespass for anyreason should be strung up into a tree far out in the boonies next to a 5 star cache.