To trespass or not to....that is the question!

8.9k · June 27, 2007

As stated before, rationalize as you must if it makes you sleep better at night (oh, wait...you're out breaking the LAW at night). To say this thread has done more harm than the actual breaking of the law is the most ridiculous comment so far! But it was worth a laugh or two!

I can't imagine ANY park official browsing the forums for reasons to ban caching, THAT'S funny! I can however see them watching for trespassers (hey, I've watched them do just that, even rode with them once, they DO take trespassing VERY seriously), check on caches in their parks and read logs on cache pages (I know the ones at our S.P. do, I showed them how to find them and they HAVE written me a few times to comment on a log or two). Good try to sway the burden of responsibility from the law breaker to those worried about the stupidity of breaking such an easy to follow law though...very funny!

AND BTW...amin rules?? Really? I think I recall seeing the LAW posted VERY plainly on most park entrance signs...the LAW starts with P.A. and goes on to give detail!

Keep the silly comments coming though, those are great for a laugh while waiting to see who the sock puppet Sexy Sally really is!

Edited June 27, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

20.7k · June 27, 2007

As stated before, rationalize as you must if it makes you sleep better at night (oh, wait...you're out breaking the LAW at night). To say this thread has done more harm than the actual breaking of the law is the most ridiculous comment so far! But it was worth a laugh or two!

I can't imagine ANY park official browsing the forums for reasons to ban caching, THAT'S funny!...

Perhaps you should review the 'caching banned in SC' threads. Edited June 27, 2007 by sbell111

5.9k · June 27, 2007

I think I recall seeing the LAW posted VERY plainly on most park entrance signs...the LAW starts with P.A. and goes on to give detail!

Many Pierce County parks have a sign at the entrance with the dawn-to-dusk rule posted. They also say that firearms are forbidden in the park by law, however, this is untrue. So if the sign has misleading or false information, how can any of it be believed?

20.7k · June 27, 2007

I've often run across parks that may or may not have hours posted at the main entrance, but not posted at other park entrances. If my GPSr is leading me to the park, I may or may not see the sign. If I don't see the sign, I rather doubt that I am going to follow whatever it says.

This topic has me wondering, does the sign at the entrance to St. James Park in London still forbid visitors from riding the pelicans?

8.9k · June 28, 2007

I didn't realize that was the reason for (or partial reason for) the banning of caches in SC...I stand corrected! However, any park official reading this thread will realize that MOST of us are capable of following LAWS and that there are a sad few that can't. I'd take this thread as good for caching since it points out how MANY of us really want to obey the laws and be responsible cachers. OBVIOUSLY (as in all walks of life) there will be those that feel above the law and break it for the sake of "doing their own thing".

sbell, if you didn't read the cache page which LIKELY would point out the park hours and have the attribute as well, I would have no sympathy for any trouble you would get into That's YOUR responsibility as a cacher. Now if the cache page didn't list it, well shame on the owner...but that's still not going to help if you run into the wrong LEO. Failure to SEE or READ a sign is not going to impress the LEOs (around here at least)...but this argument has been given the go around a few times already!

Criminal, sbell, as a charter members, I'd expect more of you as people tend to look up to those that have been around for awhile. To say it's alright to break the laws, that you can't have fun unless breaking the law while finding those caches etc is very sad and paints you in a much different view (at least for me). Lead by example! Act responsibly and play the game within the LAW!

We own a golf course here, one of our long-lasting members is also the principal of a local school! THAT goof THINKS that he is above the rules and can drive his cart wherever he pleases, which in turn makes those around him (and others on the course as well) to think "hey, he can do it, why can't we?". I tend to hold him to a higher standard since he IS looked up to by many (he's well known)...what an example he displays! I also tend to give him more hell than those that aren't regulars as he SHOULD know the rules.

You are much the same! People around your areas (and those that come to the forums etc) see your names, check out your stats and form an opinion of you (many looking up to those that SHOULD be exemplory cachers). Seeing that you would willingly break the law for a CACHE is bad bad bad! And then there's SIMP who would break the law any time because??? Well, he was good for a laugh when he said that one!

June 28, 2007

Criminal, sbell, as a charter members, I'd expect more of you as people tend to look up to those that have been around for awhile. To say it's alright to break the laws, that you can't have fun unless breaking the law while finding those caches etc is very sad and paints you in a much different view (at least for me).

Did they say that?

20.7k · June 28, 2007

I didn't realize that was the reason for (or partial reason for) the banning of caches in SC...I stand corrected! However, any park official reading this thread will realize that MOST of us are capable of following LAWS and that there are a sad few that can't. I'd take this thread as good for caching since it points out how MANY of us really want to obey the laws and be responsible cachers. OBVIOUSLY (as in all walks of life) there will be those that feel above the law and break it for the sake of "doing their own thing".

I suspect that if they are bright enough to figure that out, they are bright enough to realize that one person entering a park after hours to find a cache is not indicative of all geocachers.

sbell, if you didn't read the cache page which LIKELY would point out the park hours and have the attribute as well, I would have no sympathy for any trouble you would get into That's YOUR responsibility as a cacher. Now if the cache page didn't list it, well shame on the owner...but that's still not going to help if you run into the wrong LEO. Failure to SEE or READ a sign is not going to impress the LEOs (around here at least)...but this argument has been given the go around a few times already!

We are in agreement on this point. Near as I can tell, no one has suggested that cache seekers do not bear the responsibility for their actions.

Criminal, sbell, as a charter members, I'd expect more of you as people tend to look up to those that have been around for awhile. To say it's alright to break the laws, that you can't have fun unless breaking the law while finding those caches etc is very sad and paints you in a much different view (at least for me). Lead by example! Act responsibly and play the game within the LAW!

Lighten up, Francis.

You are completely twisting posts to make it appear that most of us are for breaking laws. The fact is, your accusations and gloomy forcasts haven't rung true to us. Sorry.

BTW, the difference between charter members and other premium members is that we have been paying the man longer. That's all. Once again, geocachers are just regular people, like soylent green.

We own a golf course here, one of our long-lasting members is also the principal of a local school! THAT goof THINKS that he is above the rules and can drive his cart wherever he pleases, which in turn makes those around him (and others on the course as well) to think "hey, he can do it, why can't we?". I tend to hold him to a higher standard since he IS looked up to by many (he's well known)...what an example he displays! I also tend to give him more hell than those that aren't regulars as he SHOULD know the rules.

You are much the same! People around your areas (and those that come to the forums etc) see your names, check out your stats and form an opinion of you (many looking up to those that SHOULD be exemplory cachers). Seeing that you would willingly break the law for a CACHE is bad bad bad! And then there's SIMP who would break the law any time because??? Well, he was good for a laugh when he said that one!

Please either reference my post stating that I would willingly break the law for a cache or apologize for your comment.

June 28, 2007

In case you missed it, Rockin Roddy is on a rant.

It started over in our MiGO forums and ran out of steam over there. He brought it to this forum and it found new life.

You can beat your heads against the wall till they're bloody trying to discuss this with him and I am supremely confident he won't come off his rant.

If he was really interested in influencing one single cacher about seeking caches in parks after hours he would have much more success by suggesting MiGO change their seeking guidelines to include some pertinent info about respecting park hours and their hiding guidelines to include some pertinent info about including park hours and rules in a cache listing. Or perhaps suggesting MiGO include a link to the Geocachers' Creed.

But then again this is a rant, so I won't get my hopes up.

Got to give it to him though, he is passionate in his rant.

As one of our MiGO forum mods is fond of saying, "It's time for me to give this one a break, step away from the keyboard, and go find some caches".

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

8.9k · June 28, 2007

sorry sbell, that was more for Crim than you...but I don't see you denying that you'd enter after hours (under the guise that you "didn't see the sign")...much the same, isn't it? I think you've mentioned that a few times actually. Now, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can pretty much figure out that 90+% of parks have closing hours...and I'd be CERTAIN to make sure I wasn't breaking a law before entering (or I'd wait until I KNEW the park WAS open)! That's just me though! Most responsible adults (note I didn't limit that to cachers) would likely do the same.

Someone ALSO pointed out that they would likely just download the cache info to their PDA (if that wasn't you, sorry...I'm getting ready to go to work and won't take the time to go back and verify that) and NOT have the closing hours info available (or was it the attribute)...even suggesting that, since they DIDN'T know, and entered from a place without a sign, all would be fine (or something to that jist). Yet others said they'd just lie.

I'm twisting nothing...there have been a few that said they'd willingly break the law for a cache...maybe you missed those posts? AND yes, you have been around longer, so others WILL look up to you (much as people look up to their elders)...sorry, that's a simple fact of life. If you wish not to be held to a higher standard, maybe you should hide your charter status? I mainly referenced you in that (was really aimed at Crim) because I realized YOU were also a charter member (didn't want to hurt your feelings by leaving out that fact). I mostly look up to you, read your comments closely and such for the very reason that you ARE a charter member and therefore SHOULD know the ins and outs of caching (and the do's and don'ts)...maybe I should better pick those to look up to? I don't hold Crim to the same standards now because of his views...he has stated flat out that he's all for breaking the laws..."did that and would do it again" (or something close to that). I also look up to RK, Briansnat, (as well as most mods) BD and tons of other cachers with more experience than I. I may not agree with everything that's said, but I do tend to look up to you guys.

As for the gloomy forecast not ringing true...when and if they do, it's going to be a bad day for caching somewhere!

Edited June 28, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

20.7k · June 28, 2007

sorry sbell, that was more for Crim than you...but I don't see you denying that you'd enter after hours (under the guise that you "didn't see the sign")...much the same, isn't it? I think you've mentioned that a few times actually. Now, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can pretty much figure out that 90+% of parks have closing hours...and I'd be CERTAIN to make sure I wasn't breaking a law before entering (or I'd wait until the park WAS open)! That's just me though! Most responsible adults (note I didn't limit that to cachers) would likely do the same.

Not at all. Many parks allow access 24/7. Those that don't have greatly varied closing hours. While I would still be responsible for my actions, if I saw no sign and there was no locked gate, I likely would enter. This is not remotely the same as willfully breaking a rule that I was aware of. (Note that I did not say 'law'. Most park hours are not set by law.)

I suspect that most responsible adults would also enter a park if they did come across anything that would make them believe that it was closed (like a sign or locked gate).

BTW, you get that Crim was screwing with you for comic relief, right? Stop taking everything so seriously.

Someone ALSO pointed out that they would likely just download the cache info to their PDA (if that wasn't you, sorry...I'm getting ready to go to work and won't take the time to go back and verify that) and NOT have the closing hours info available (or was it the attribute)...even suggesting that, since they DIDN'T know, and entered from a place without a sign, all would be fine (or something to that jist).

Actually, that was me. Again, I cache paperless and read each cache page before hitting 'goto', but sometimes things happen. Again, while I am responsible for my own actions, if I don't know that a park is closed, I may enter.

Yet others said they'd just lie.

Actually, I believe what was suggested is that if people are caught breaking the law while caching, that they should not mention that they were geocaching. They should also not post to the cache page that they broke the law. While I don't call this lying, my wife might.

I'm twisting nothing...there have been a few that said they'd willingly break the law for a cache...maybe you missed those posts?

Actually, you twisted two or three positions in this very post. Personally, I don't really care that much, but you are so 'in your face' with your assertions that it's really hard to ignore.

AND yes, you have been around longer, so others WILL look up to you (much as people look up to their elders)...sorry, that's a simple fact of life. If you wish not to be held to a higher standard, maybe you should hide your charter status? I mainly referenced you in that (was really aimed at Crim) because I realized YOU were also a charter member (didn't want to hurt your feelings by leaving out that fact). I mostly look up to you, read your comments closely and such for the very reason that you ARE a charter member and therefore SHOULD know the ins and outs of caching (and the do's and don'ts)...maybe I should better pick those to look up to? I don't hold Crim to the same standards now because of his views...he has stated flat out that he's all for breaking the laws..."did that and would do it again" (or something close to that). I also look up to RK, Briansnat, (as well as most mods) BD and tons of other cachers with more experience than I. I may not agree with everything that's said, but I do tend to look up to you guys.

As for the gloomy forecast not ringing true...when and if they do, it's going to be a bad day for caching somewhere!

Golly. You really have to try to lighten up.

5.9k · June 28, 2007

Blah

Blah

Blah

Blah

Blah

Wow, five paragraphs and you never answered my question. It doesn’t appear you want to discuss anything; you’re only here to spew your opinions from your soapbox, which is really poor form.

You’ve made your position known, repeating it is a waste of bandwidth. There’s no need to keep this thread open.

20.7k · June 28, 2007

To trespass or not to....that is the question!

...and it will be asked for the next several pages, no matter what the opinion of anyone else. <_<

June 28, 2007

If I were attempting to go for a FTF in a park that I found out was closed... I'd wait until it's open again. Part of the challenge of making finds placed in public parks is to be able to make the find stealthily with muggles around enjoying the park. Even if you didn't "see" or "know" that the park was closed, use common sense! Most of the parks and pretty much all cemeteries I've seen with caches in them have some sort of posted hours. In this case, it'd be better to be cautious. You can't really use "Geocaching" as a defense to the police.

20.7k · June 28, 2007

If I were attempting to go for a FTF in a park that I found out was closed... I'd wait until it's open again. Part of the challenge of making finds placed in public parks is to be able to make the find stealthily with muggles around enjoying the park. Even if you didn't "see" or "know" that the park was closed, use common sense! Most of the parks and pretty much all cemeteries I've seen with caches in them have some sort of posted hours. In this case, it'd be better to be cautious. You can't really use "Geocaching" as a defense to the police.

If you were using this so-called common sense, why would you have even approached the park to find it closed?

The bottom line is that people might enter a park if they don't know it's closed. I came to that conclusion through the use of ... wait for it ... common sense.

9.3k · June 28, 2007

You can beat your heads against the wall till they're bloody trying to discuss this with him and I am supremely confident he won't come off his rant.

Or you can utilize the mighty "Plonk". :laughing:

June 28, 2007

You can beat your heads against the wall till they're bloody trying to discuss this with him and I am supremely confident he won't come off his rant.

Or you can utilize the mighty "Plonk".

Thanks Clan Riffster. That was a new term for me so I zoomed on over to Wikipedia and gave it a look. I especially loved the "toilet" reference :rolleyes: Perfect!

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

June 28, 2007

You can beat your heads against the wall till they're bloody trying to discuss this with him and I am supremely confident he won't come off his rant.

Or you can utilize the mighty "Plonk".

Thanks Clan Riffster. That was a new term for me so I zoomed on over to Wikipedia and gave it a look. I especially loved the "toilet" reference Perfect!

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

Excellent! I knew the cheap-wine meaning, but the 'net/killfile reference was new to me. Thanks for the link. You learn something new every day (if you're paying attention).

8.9k · June 29, 2007

Sorry Crim...that was a serious question? How do you know the info on the park sign IS false? If I see a sign that says park closes, no littering, no bottles or alcohol or whatever, I'll take that sign as law! If you choose to ignore that law, sorry for you! Sbell...you say you're against breaking the law, yet you question all the laws as actually being just rules? Who do you suppose makes those rules and who enforces them? If the sign says there's a fine and possible imprisonment, I'd suspect the LAW is behind it and would think your local finest would be the ones enforcing it (which means you ARE breaking a law to trespass).

GUYS (and gals)...you grow tired of the repeats? Stop the repeats and give me a REAL reason why trespassing after hours isn't breaking the law and I'll stop standing here hard on my opinion! This has gone on for several pages and I've yet to see one...ANYONE?? I too grow tired (hell, did so a few pages back, but this is my topic...would it be bad form to just walk away?). A REAL reason please! Deane certainly hasn't given any reason at all (other than it's how he wants to play the game...or was that GH or Fishing???)...and you've had even more time to think one up! Discussion...really? Sbell, is your purpose to just detract from the real issue at hand, or was there something you wanted to say that WASN'T a repeat?

And you are right, I don't know Crim, so I can't tell if he is just messing around with me...sorry, I tend to take people at their word! Hey Crim, if you actually don't feel breaking the law for a cache is OK, sorry I misunderstood your posts!

PLONK?? Hey...give a valid answer, walk away or use the ignore button, saves me the trouble of answering the same silly comments over and over. Just don't come here giving me the same thoughts and then saying I'M just ranting on and on for the sake of argument...I'm addressing YOUR silly repeats! Ball's now in your court...waiting for the REAL reasons (but expecting more silly comments).

June 29, 2007

20.7k · June 29, 2007

Sorry Crim...that was a serious question? How do you know the info on the park sign IS false? If I see a sign that says park closes, no littering, no bottles or alcohol or whatever, I'll take that sign as law! If you choose to ignore that law, sorry for you!

Those of us who legal carry take great pains to learn where a firearm can be legally carried.

Sbell...you say you're against breaking the law, yet you question all the laws as actually being just rules? Who do you suppose makes those rules and who enforces them? If the sign says there's a fine and possible imprisonment, I'd suspect the LAW is behind it and would think your local finest would be the ones enforcing it (which means you ARE breaking a law to trespass).

You misunderstood my post and are concentrating on that one tiny side comment to pick at, rather than deal with the rest of the post.

I'm wondering why you can't let this topic go.

GUYS (and gals)...you grow tired of the repeats? Stop the repeats and give me a REAL reason why trespassing after hours isn't breaking the law and I'll stop standing here hard on my opinion! This has gone on for several pages and I've yet to see one...ANYONE?? I too grow tired (hell, did so a few pages back, but this is my topic...would it be bad form to just walk away?). A REAL reason please! Deane certainly hasn't given any reason at all (other than it's how he wants to play the game...or was that GH or Fishing???)...and you've had even more time to think one up! Discussion...really? Sbell, is your purpose to just detract from the real issue at hand, or was there something you wanted to say that WASN'T a repeat?

I guess if I was clear on your motivations, I could address them. Failing that, I can only discuss the topic that you've presented. Since you fail to understand my position and that of others, some repeating has been necessary. Sorry.

And you are right, I don't know Crim, so I can't tell if he is just messing around with me...sorry, I tend to take people at their word! Hey Crim, if you actually don't feel breaking the law for a cache is OK, sorry I misunderstood your posts!

Do you honestly believe that everyone in these forums plays it straight all the time? That would get pretty boring. I think you will find that people get sillier as OPs take themselves more and more seriously.

PLONK?? Hey...give a valid answer, walk away or use the ignore button, saves me the trouble of answering the same silly comments over and over. Just don't come here giving me the same thoughts and then saying I'M just ranting on and on for the sake of argument...I'm addressing YOUR silly repeats! Ball's now in your court...waiting for the REAL reasons (but expecting more silly comments).

Do you honestly believe that you are not ranting?

Just to be clear, again, here is my position and, I suspect, the position of most people:

If I know that a park is closed, I generally will not enter said park. If I were to enter a park after hours, for whatever reason, and I am caught doing so, I will be responsible for my actions. It would be best, if that happened, if I did not mention geocaching (although I might in an effort to be forehright with the LEO and to avoid any punishment). I certainly should not brag about my illicit adventure in my online log.

I hope this has allowed you to fully understand my position. Please feel free to comment if you disagree with same.

(I wish I was the kind of person that could <plonk> others. It would make things easier, sometimes.)

[This post was paid in part by the comma. Everyone should make an effort to use the comma more often. It's good for your writing and good for the American way.]

Edited June 29, 2007 by sbell111

5.9k · June 29, 2007

Sorry Crim...that was a serious question? How do you know the info on the park sign IS false? If I see a sign that says park closes, no littering, no bottles or alcohol or whatever, I'll take that sign as law!

Blah....

I know the sign is giving false information. I can (and do) carry my firearm into the park, concealed with a license, or openly without a license, because there is no law in Washington forbidding it. If the park chooses to print false information on their sign about that, why should I believe it’s trespassing if the same sign says it’s ‘closed at dusk’? That may be merely a suggestion put there to protect me from tripping over a tree root in the darkness.

No, I’m not messing with you. A geocache owner and Geocaching.com/Groundspeak have no authority under the law. They can’t null my find if I greatly exceed the speed limit while driving to the park any more than they can if I make the free-will decision to enter a park after hours (posted or not). You can certainly suggest that people follow the park rules when hunting for a cache you own, but you hold no ground that gives you the authority to make demands to anyone.

Edited June 29, 2007 by Criminal

2.7k · June 29, 2007

sanity? are we now equating sanity with amoral tripe?

edit: well, that's my problem, then. if i was sane, maybe i'd have fewer morals.

Equating an administrative rule such as the time of a park closure with morality trivializes morality and invites tyranny. I realize that's rather dramatically stated, but there it is. And I understand the desire not to see people benefit from rule-breaking, but a little perspective is called for.

*I've been out for a week*

Where you are missing the point is that once the rule has been made, it then becomes morally wrong to knowingly and intentionally violate it, notwithstanding that it is "malum prohibitum" and thus could be changed at the whim of the regulatory agency.

The moot fact that an offense might be "trivial" does not enter into the discussion of MORAL principles. Right is right and wrong is wrong, morally speaking.

SBELL: (Re speeding ticket), I never said at any point that speeding was not wrong. Actually I thought that would be reasonably assumed by any rational reader. Perhaps I am mistaken in that assumption. I guess speeding is one of those things, much like disregarding park signs, that somehow becomes "right" because everybody does it.

So to clarify how I still hold the "moral high ground", I pleaded guilty (meaning I actually committed the offense and freely admitted that it WAS an offense and that I DID commit it freely, voluntarily and with predisposition to do so). If you were referring somehow to my statement that my 79/70 was "reasonable", I will still hold to that opinion.

The "reasonable" argument seems to be the gist of the pros in this thread.

Breaking the law might be "reasonable" in certain cases, and indeed might be the best course of action in a few rare cases, but to do so for a useless "trophy" (FTF) in a game that has no particular redeeming value to society can hardly be conceived as fitting any criterion of justification of breaking the law.

8.9k · June 29, 2007

Well Crim, that sign does only say park rules and regs...no P.A. on there defining what law you'd be breaking or whatnot. I would have to agree that those ARE merely suggestions with the exception: IF you were to be singled out by a park official, that official could call the law and the law could respond in kind by prosecuting (if the park officials were to want to press charges). Firearms? I don't know, if you have a license, they may or may not be able to do something (they do own the property after all)...and I have no idea as to the laws about those here or anywhere else.

Right sbell...and aside from all those little "if I didn't see the sign" or "if I didn't know" or "if I was just following my GPS" comments, we do agree! But then, you threw them out there every other comment or so, so it was really kinda screwy.

Deane...you need an addition of "obey the law" in the seeking guidelines so you know you should?? I guess I give most cachers a bit more credit to think they would KNOW that's the right thing to do! And adding the Cacher's Creed to anything won't help if you wouldn't follow it in the first place, now would it.

5.9k · June 29, 2007

Well Crim, that sign does only say park rules and regs...no P.A. on there defining what law you'd be breaking or whatnot. I would have to agree that those ARE merely suggestions with the exception: IF you were to be singled out by a park official, that official could call the law and the law could respond in kind by prosecuting (if the park officials were to want to press charges). Firearms? I don't know, if you have a license, they may or may not be able to do something (they do own the property after all)...and I have no idea as to the laws about those here or anywhere else.

That’s exactly my point. It is legal to carry a firearm openly in WA without a permit of any kind. The state has declared preemption over all local laws regarding the carry of firearms, so the blurb on the sign that says, “No Firearms” is false.

Now, if that part of the sign is incorrect, the rest is suspect.

2.7k · June 29, 2007

Well Crim, that sign does only say park rules and regs...no P.A. on there defining what law you'd be breaking or whatnot. I would have to agree that those ARE merely suggestions with the exception: IF you were to be singled out by a park official, that official could call the law and the law could respond in kind by prosecuting (if the park officials were to want to press charges). Firearms? I don't know, if you have a license, they may or may not be able to do something (they do own the property after all)...and I have no idea as to the laws about those here or anywhere else.

That’s exactly my point. It is legal to carry a firearm openly in WA without a permit of any kind. The state has declared preemption over all local laws regarding the carry of firearms, so the blurb on the sign that says, “No Firearms” is false.

Now, if that part of the sign is incorrect, the rest is suspect.

So you have specific information that one part of the sign is in error. therefore it is logical to assume that you could not be successfully persecuted (sic) for the firearms violation.

However, notwithstanding your distrust of the "authority" of the sign, unless you have similar SPECIFIC information which nullifies the posted hours (such as a state law declaring all parks open 24/7), you still would stand to be successfully prosecuted for your violation of the other postings of the sign.

Invalidity of one part of a rule set does not nullify the validity of the rest of the rule set.

5.9k · June 29, 2007

Well Crim, that sign does only say park rules and regs...no P.A. on there defining what law you'd be breaking or whatnot. I would have to agree that those ARE merely suggestions with the exception: IF you were to be singled out by a park official, that official could call the law and the law could respond in kind by prosecuting (if the park officials were to want to press charges). Firearms? I don't know, if you have a license, they may or may not be able to do something (they do own the property after all)...and I have no idea as to the laws about those here or anywhere else.

That’s exactly my point. It is legal to carry a firearm openly in WA without a permit of any kind. The state has declared preemption over all local laws regarding the carry of firearms, so the blurb on the sign that says, “No Firearms” is false.

Now, if that part of the sign is incorrect, the rest is suspect.

So you have specific information that one part of the sign is in error. therefore it is logical to assume that you could not be successfully persecuted (sic) for the firearms violation.

However, notwithstanding your distrust of the "authority" of the sign, unless you have similar SPECIFIC information which nullifies the posted hours (such as a state law declaring all parks open 24/7), you still would stand to be successfully prosecuted for your violation of the other postings of the sign.

Invalidity of one part of a rule set does not nullify the validity of the rest of the rule set.

Ah, but that assumes they would see me in the park.

One should never assume.

2.7k · June 29, 2007

Well Crim, that sign does only say park rules and regs...no P.A. on there defining what law you'd be breaking or whatnot. I would have to agree that those ARE merely suggestions with the exception: IF you were to be singled out by a park official, that official could call the law and the law could respond in kind by prosecuting (if the park officials were to want to press charges). Firearms? I don't know, if you have a license, they may or may not be able to do something (they do own the property after all)...and I have no idea as to the laws about those here or anywhere else.

That’s exactly my point. It is legal to carry a firearm openly in WA without a permit of any kind. The state has declared preemption over all local laws regarding the carry of firearms, so the blurb on the sign that says, “No Firearms” is false.

Now, if that part of the sign is incorrect, the rest is suspect.

So you have specific information that one part of the sign is in error. therefore it is logical to assume that you could not be successfully persecuted (sic) for the firearms violation.

However, notwithstanding your distrust of the "authority" of the sign, unless you have similar SPECIFIC information which nullifies the posted hours (such as a state law declaring all parks open 24/7), you still would stand to be successfully prosecuted for your violation of the other postings of the sign.

Invalidity of one part of a rule set does not nullify the validity of the rest of the rule set.

Ah, but that assumes they would see me in the park.

One should never assume.

Ah, but what if the ranger was one of your former army buddies? You know the one... that was always seemed to know what you were thinking...

9.3k · June 30, 2007

Ah, but that assumes they would see me in the park.

Gotta love night vision goggles!

8.9k · June 30, 2007

Yep, had the night vision myself. Since I didn't have any real use for it, I sold it though. Crim, you should never assume they WON'T see you either! Of course, you could always say you didn't know, or never saw the sign or... BTW...did they also order a preemption on those other rules (as is in this case)?

You are right Criminal, no one can force you to be a stand-up citizen, that must come from within you! I was just hoping that it wasn't too much to ask that you lead by example and do the right thing! If only I had posted the Cacher's Creed...and asked the GS team for an addition to the seeker's guidelines... :sad: Maybe have our government make another law similar to the law against the illegal act of gouging us at the pumps? Yep, that'll help!

Great posts CC...THANKS!

3.7k · June 30, 2007

Stop the repeats and give me a REAL reason why trespassing after hours isn't breaking the law and I'll stop standing here hard on my opinion!

...because trespassing isn't illegal! Remember that this is an international forum and not every country has such restrictive laws...

2.3k · June 30, 2007

A topic on the MiGO forums about this has been going with most favoring one side. What about YOU??

A cache is placed in a park that is CLEARLY marked with closing hours (listing mentions this as well). The cache gets published after dark (closing hours) and is waiting for it's FTF! Would you be LEGAL and wait until morning to go after it, or would you break the law, go against the rules of that cache and go after it right then?

To further that, would you consider any after hours FTFs tainted? Since no one should be there after hours, does the find count? Should the find be deleted if the owner knows about the after hours search?

This is a big concern for me as I'm worried what an after hours hunt would do to my relations with the S.P I am working with to place hides. One side is campground, only campers can hunt after dark there, but the beach, picnic and boat launch areas are on the other side of the road and they watch for trespassers after hours there! If a few rogue cachers were caught, the park MAY ask for the removal of the hides!

What say you? Are FTFs a reason to break the law?

I would delete the FTF. But I have a note to that effect on my daylight only listings.

8.9k · June 30, 2007

Great SDT...policing our own caches is the right way to go! Maybe these law breakers would learn something if their finds suddenly disappeared! Have enough self-respect to play responsibly for crying out loud!

So you see Criminal, we do have the power to at least keep ill-gotten finds from counting...may not be able to get you to obey the law, but it's a start!

Glad you guys have the privilege to go and do as you please in your country HH! Since this doesn't affect you, you have no need to worry about it! Since trespassing IS illegal here (most cases), I'll still discuss this! HAPPY CACHING!

9.3k · June 30, 2007

Wow.... 4 pages of this nonsense. Whoodathunkit?

14.3k · June 30, 2007

Wow.... 4 pages of this nonsense. Whoodathunkit?

1.8k · June 30, 2007

Criminal, even though the sign claims "no firearms," and state law prevails for legal carry privileges, the guideline has still been set by the party responsible for the park, Pierce County. Perhaps we should just look on this as a request by them to limit carrying to those responsible enough to know the laws, such as yourself. Or, even more likely, it refers to the discharge of firearms, as the sign also has fireworks on the same line. An attempt to enforce common sense in a world where common sense is dead, perhaps? (Yes folks, there are idiots who discharge firearms in parks and neighborhoods without regard to bystander safety.)

As for OP, entering a park after posted hours. We need to remember that there are always liability and safety issues, particularly in public areas. Just as a business owner gets to prohibit entry during certain hours, usually using a door with lock, many locations prohibit access through posted hours. This is often times done to prevent congregating teens keeping neighbors awake, to limit illegal activities and the debris from these (please remove your used syringes from the baseball diamonds before 7 am ), or just to remove the need to pay security to keep the facilities from being destroyed. Unfortunately, we live in a world where too many don't care what they destroy for others.

If the hours are posted, I would not go in. Similarly, if the hider knows the park or area has posted hours, they have an obligation to state these clearly in the cache description, preferably right at the top. The way to further the caching game is not by being seen in violation of the law, and using a little common sense in our activities. CITO is a wonderful way to improve our relations with an area manager, but any benefit would be lost if he/she immediately finds cachers in the flower beds at 3 am.

5.9k · June 30, 2007

So you see Criminal, we do have the power to at least keep ill-gotten finds from counting...may not be able to get you to obey the law, but it's a start!

You mean, like I have the power to delete your cache?

8.9k · June 30, 2007

And you know, somehow I wouldn't doubt that Criminal. Sad, very sad indeed!

14.3k · June 30, 2007

Criminal, even though the sign claims "no firearms," and state law prevails for legal carry privileges, the guideline has still been set by the party responsible for the park, Pierce County. Perhaps we should just look on this as a request by them to limit carrying to those responsible enough to know the laws, such as yourself. Or, even more likely, it refers to the discharge of firearms, as the sign also has fireworks on the same line. An attempt to enforce common sense in a world where common sense is dead, perhaps? (Yes folks, there are idiots who discharge firearms in parks and neighborhoods without regard to bystander safety.)

As for OP, entering a park after posted hours. We need to remember that there are always liability and safety issues, particularly in public areas. Just as a business owner gets to prohibit entry during certain hours, usually using a door with lock, many locations prohibit access through posted hours. This is often times done to prevent congregating teens keeping neighbors awake, to limit illegal activities and the debris from these (please remove your used syringes from the baseball diamonds before 7 am ), or just to remove the need to pay security to keep the facilities from being destroyed. Unfortunately, we live in a world where too many don't care what they destroy for others.

If the hours are posted, I would not go in. Similarly, if the hider knows the park or area has posted hours, they have an obligation to state these clearly in the cache description, preferably right at the top. The way to further the caching game is not by being seen in violation of the law, and using a little common sense in our activities. CITO is a wonderful way to improve our relations with an area manager, but any benefit would be lost if he/she immediately finds cachers in the flower beds at 3 am.

It all comes down to leadership by example. No tupperware container or whatever is worth taking a needless risk.

2.7k · June 30, 2007

If I throw a party and say in the invitation that the party is over at 22:00, anyone who does not commence leaving at 22:00 is not necessarily TRESPASSING but is certainly RUDE.

The law is more than just a set of statutes that enable prosecution if they are broken. The law is a also set of guidelines for our behaviour which (hopefully) will result in our getting along better with each other as we interact in public.

A law does not PREVENT any behaviour on its own, it is only as people of character choose to obey that a law serves its true purpose.

If all people had good character, the enforcement of laws and rules would be unnecessary, the simple dissemination of them as the desired behaviours would be sufficient.

The signage in the parks accomplishes nothing more than helping honest people to understand what is expected of them. Our discussion here cannot hope to avail much more. We are powerless to prevent any kind of lawlessness.

8.9k · July 1, 2007

Sorry, still trying to figure out just what character (or lack of) it takes to threaten the action that Crim would. Let me understand this better: you'd break a law for a cache, then if called on it, you'd steal said cache (seriously, that seems the only way YOU can delete it). You're fellow cachers must really adore you...but you just make me sick!

Glad you live waaay over there and I only need to deal with you through this forum.

2.5k · July 1, 2007

Those that would break the law to find a cache, ANY cache, is dead wrong and a black eye to our sport! Period!
It's best not to have all your hobby eggs in one basket. You do have some fall-back interests, right?

Hrm...

This statement by Criminal seems to imply that he's not worried if geocaching gets restricted because of his actions, and that everyone should be ready to move on to a different activity. Mine, by the way are, in no particular order, hiking, sailing, stamp collecting, computers, tinkering with my bike. If someone were to be taking actions or endorsing actions that might lead to the demise of any of these activities, I'd be pretty upset. As far as geocaching goes, I've already heard the argument saying "If geocaching is outlawed, it won't die, it'll just go underground." People who hold this belief are the same ones who will ruin it for those of us who choose to follow the law.

I hope you, Criminal, are just yanking RR's chain, but remember: Others are watching, and if RR can't tell when you are joking, some of the others may not be able to, either. Oh, yeah... you already said you aren't kidding.

Shame on you. :laughing:

5.9k · July 1, 2007

Sorry, still trying to figure out just what character (or lack of) it takes to threaten the action that Crim would. Let me understand this better: you'd break a law for a cache, then if called on it, you'd steal said cache (seriously, that seems the only way YOU can delete it). You're fellow cachers must really adore you...but you just make me sick!

Glad you live waaay over there and I only need to deal with you through this forum.

So let’s see, you start a topic on the pretense of discussing it when you’re really just looking to exhibit your righteous indignation over someone entering a park after posted hours and bagging an FTF.

Somehow you feel it’s acceptable geocaching behavior to delete a legitimate find because you have some personal issue with the way it was found, and yet you recoil in horror at the idea that someone else might do the same on a legitimate hide.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

9.3k · July 1, 2007

Sir, back away from the keyboard, or he shall be forced to say "Ni" to you...... or possibly "Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-P'tang, Zzoo-Boing, gdgdbaaoizen"

July 1, 2007

Sir, back away from the keyboard, or he shall be forced to say "Ni" to you...... or possibly "Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-P'tang, Zzoo-Boing, gdgdbaaoizen"

And then you'll have to cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with... A herring!!!

8.9k · July 1, 2007

You may want to look up legitimate again. Nothing legit about breaking a law to get a cache, nothing legit about breaking a cache owner's rules. NOTHING even close to right to say that you can steal a cache because the cache owner enforced said rules (about the LAW)...Your find isn't a legit find and therefore can and WILL be deleted!

Sorry Crim, but as you said earlier, I'm wasting bandwidth trying to get you to understand what most elemetary school kids can!

Legitimate...that's rich man!

July 1, 2007

You may want to look up legitimate again. Nothing legit about breaking a law to get a cache, nothing legit about breaking a cache owner's rules. NOTHING even close to right to say that you can steal a cache because the cache owner enforced said rules (about the LAW)...Your find isn't a legit find and therefore can and WILL be deleted!

Sorry Crim, but as you said earlier, I'm wasting bandwidth trying to get you to understand what most elemetary school kids can!

Legitimate...that's rich man!

This is a no-brainer, I would respect park rules.

5.9k · July 1, 2007

You may want to look up legitimate again. Nothing legit about breaking a law to get a cache, nothing legit about breaking a cache owner's rules. NOTHING even close to right to say that you can steal a cache because the cache owner enforced said rules (about the LAW)...Your find isn't a legit find and therefore can and WILL be deleted!

Sorry Crim, but as you said earlier, I'm wasting bandwidth trying to get you to understand what most elemetary school kids can!

Legitimate...that's rich man!

As you have throughout this discussion, you twist words to fit your self righteous drivel, and that’s a good summation of all your posts. A find is a find. The first person to sign the log book is the first finder. You can try to justify deleting their log all you want but you have no authority under the law. So you must act beyond your authority to enforce your personal interpretation of the park rules through pettiness. My point is that a finder can also be petty, and do far more damage to the hider than the hider can do to the finder. Deleting their log does not take away their find’s legitimacy and runs the risk of starting a war you have neither the intellect (as you posts seem to indicate) nor ability to win.

Edited July 1, 2007 by Criminal

8.9k · July 2, 2007

We don't need the LAW to enforce a rule which IS in the guidelines...you seem confused even yet! But wait, wasn't that part of your argument before? Rules aren't laws and vice versa??

You've shown your true colors, we can all see you for who you are. And since MOST of us are adult enough to not resort to theft and such because their little ego got bruised, I'm not overly worried about any wars (where's that enemy line??). What was that word??? PLONK??? Does your overly brilliant mind comprehend that?

7.2k · July 2, 2007

Um, like, can we get this back to a "discussion" please?

If you two want to get this personal with each other, feel free to take it to email and spare the rest of us.

8.9k · July 2, 2007

Sorry all!

back on topic...breaking any law for any cache is bad for our sport. PLEASE play your own way, but by the law as well! Losing our parks would really put a damper to our fun!

To trespass or not to....that is the question!

Recommended Posts