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Would everyone stop using pipes to hide caches!


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I liked the quote from mom:

 

Hrapko was surprised to learn her son and daughter-in-law's reception was spoiled by techno-savvy treasure hunters.

 

"What? That's just crazy," Hrapko said. "Our minds went to the worst while we were waiting. We thought maybe someone didn't want us to have a nice reception because we were Northerners."

 

Talk about paranoia. :rolleyes:

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Bomb squad got two here in the South this week.

 

The one at Tybee Island Georgia was a pipe under a fishing pier, the one at the University of North Alabama (UNA) was an ammo can by a building's window.

 

Both had permission, had been in place for a long time and had been often found.

 

This stuff is just gonna happen no matter what container we use.

 

I do agree however that pipes beg for this kind of trouble.

 

On a lighter note, is it me or is there a Blue Collar Comedy skit to be found in this quote from the OP's linked story:

When they arrived at the pier for their dream wedding reception, authorities told them they couldn't celebrate as planned because a bomb might be ticking just below them.

 

"They didn't get to have a moment of their reception," said Christine Hrapko, the groom's mother. "They never saw the cake. They never got to listen to their DJ. They never got to eat any of their food. It's not funny."

 

Their dream wedding reception was on a Georgia fishing pier? They were so hot for the honeymoon the reception couldn't wait an hour for the cops to blow up a geocache? I don't care who you are, that there is funny!

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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I wonder if there is a lawsuit in the future. I can see them trying to sue the placer to recoup their money, plus "emotional distress".

 

Anyway, pipe caches have their place, but that place isn't in high traffic spots.

 

They also make lousy containers. Don't think I've ever found one that was dry.

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We've just started discussing this in the MiGo forums:

 

------- start quote --------

 

DeRock wrote:

 

Sounds to me like they are very paranoid in Savannah. They also blew up a suitcase left in a park. The U.S. is starting to sound like Israel, only we don't have suicide bombers.

 

To the best of my knowledge there has never been a terrorist attack in Savannah.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

 

----------------

 

Forsyth Park Bomb Scare 6-12-07

 

A bomb scare in Savannah shut down Forsyth Park, closed several major streets and even forced residents and businesses to evacuate.

 

Tuesday afternoon, employees at Liberty Six Hair Salon in Savannah were working as usual when they noticed something strange.

 

The salon has a huge window that overlooks Forsyth Park, as they were working some of the employees and customers noticed a man place a suitcase on the sidewalk in the park, right across the street from where they were.

 

"When we went to see if we could find him, he had taken off and gone down around the block," said Rob Horton, owner of the salon.

 

Immediately they called police. The bomb squad arrived and after hearing how the luggage was abandoned, they decided to take no chances. They shut down roads, closed portions of the park and had mandatory evacuations for both residents and businesses.

 

Once the area was secure, the bomb squad blew up the suitcase, but the first time didn't cut it. The suitcase was too hard. That's when they had to blow it up again.

 

Finally it opened, but it turns out, there was nothing inside it. "It's a bad prank," said bomb squad member Greg Friday. "You see the resources tied up. It's a terrible prank to do."

 

The area was shut down for almost three hours.

 

------------ end quote ---------------

 

There was also some off handed posts about a lack of permission to which I responded:

 

---------- start quote ----------

 

Gee, I have been following this pretty closely and I haven't seen anything that talks about not having permission.

 

What I have seen is the cache listing that says, "The container is a short length of camouflaged 1 1/2" PVC pipe with an official geocache sticker". A recent finder complained that it was to small for trade items. Another described it as being hid along other plastic pipes.

 

The permission issue aside, I think the police over reacted.

 

Pipe bombs are made to hurt people not blow up buildings or piers. They are constructed of metal so that the metal pieces can cause bodily harm or are constructed of other material that is large enough to hold nails or other objects that will cause bodily injury. Blowing up a short lenght of 1.5" pipe with a geocaching sticker is over kill.

 

You can follow the local discussion about this on the SCGA and the USCGA forums.

 

You can check out the cache in question here:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...80-d0acf9234dd2

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

 

------- end quote ------

 

I personally think the container was perfect for the location. A PVC cache container hidden among other PVC pipes already at the location is a great camo job in my opinion. Sounds like the hider had the water tight issue covered being under the pier. Would I have hidden this particular cache - NO!

 

The permission issue is another story (not that I am a big permission fan). Glad to hear it had permission for the cache hider's sake.

 

I'm with the TheAlabamaRambler, "This stuff is just gonna happen no matter what container we use".

 

We're so concerned about what might happen to us in the U.S. that we have become overly paranoid. We have sacrificed some of the basic civil liberties our founding fathers gave their lives for in the pursuit of terrorism. I predict that history will not look kindly on how we reacted to 9-11.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

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I'm with the TheAlabamaRambler, "This stuff is just gonna happen no matter what container we use".

 

Just make sure to use the entire quote he put up, you missed a more pertitnent part.

 

This stuff is just gonna happen no matter what container we use.

I do agree however that pipes beg for this kind of trouble.

Edited by magellan315
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Wedding reception cancelled

 

Perhaps its time for GC.com to start encouraging people to use containers that are not pipes or look like pipe bombs to hide caches.

Perhaps it's time? Did you bother to check if they're already doing this?

 

"And, while an ammo box or PVC pipe may be a great container if hidden deep in the woods, it may cause alarm if discovered in an urban setting. A clear plastic container or a microcache may be a better choice. In busy areas, avoid containers that look suspicious, including attachment materials like wires or tape. To reduce confusion and alarm when a cache is discovered accidentally, clearly label your container on the outside with appropriate information to say it is a geocache. Cover over any military markings with paint or a geocache sticker. Include an explanatory “stash note” inside your cache. Common sense in selecting hiding spots and containers can reduce the risk of your cache being perceived as a danger to those who are unaware of our sport."

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#guide

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I just recently found out a local judge is a geocacher in our town. I hope with that the local authorities are more in tune with what a geocache is and what it entails. I know for one I'm not going to sweat the photo lab folks anymore since they'll end up going to the judge in the first place for a search warrant. I could just see the judges reaction to the photographic evidence for the reason to search.... "dadgum, I've been looking for that cache for three days and here they are with a picture of it. Wonder if they can help me find it."

 

LOL

 

I do agree though, the pipes gotta go. Post 9-11 paranoia is alive and well and the next 'famous circuit city guy on the news' mentality will bring out those that want their fifteen minutes on the nightly news. Granted, in some cases it's a good thing but be realistic there isn't a terrorist under every rock in this country like some politicians would have us believe.

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I don't think the pipe shape is the problem at all. Any cache hidden underneath a fishing pier is likely to look suspicious. I remember finding a cache under the Santa Monica pier. I think it was an ammo can. At the time I was uncomfortable with the idea of the cache being there. It eventually went missing and was archived. I have found several micros hidden on piers. There is little chance of anyone who found these thinking it's a bomb.

 

On the other hand, I've recently found 3 urban caches by the same hider each of which was made from PVC pipe. These were all huge caches. Probably no one would think these are bombs because they are so much bigger than what you think of as a pipe bomb. They are also so cleaverly hidden or disguised that one might wonder why a pipe bomber would take the time to hide their bomb so well. And they were all clearly labeled on the outside as a geocache.

 

You can't just ban containers of certain shapes or sizes. Each cache is different. Hiders should to consider what might happen if their cache is found. Nowdays, any place where a crowd of people might gather is a potential terrorist target. Using micro container or using a clear container and labeling the cache might help the police determine quickly that this is not a bomb. Hiding the cache real well will make it less likely to be found, and if it is found would likely raise more curiosity about what is its than just assume that its a bomb.

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Wedding reception cancelled

 

Perhaps its time for GC.com to start encouraging people to use containers that are not pipes or look like pipe bombs to hide caches.

 

We need to look at it from the perspective of someone who has no idea geocaching exists. The world is a nutty place today and people are on edge for good reason, so, better safe than sorry in most instances. Why use a container that could be easily mistaken for a pipe bomb when there are very good alternatives in the first place?

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It also appears that people were seen accessing these caches prior to the police being called. Might be prudent to be more aware of muggles instead of telling yourself that you drove 25 miles, and I am getting that cache no matter what!. Not sure this is what happened, but it crossed my mind.

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Wedding reception cancelled

 

Perhaps its time for GC.com to start encouraging people to use containers that are not pipes or look like pipe bombs to hide caches.

 

We need to look at it from the perspective of someone who has no idea geocaching exists. The world is a nutty place today and people are on edge for good reason, so, better safe than sorry in most instances. Why use a container that could be easily mistaken for a pipe bomb when there are very good alternatives in the first place?

All the alternatives also look like bombs. So does your backpack. So does your car. Somethings look more like bombs to Joe Public than other things so it all comes down to perception and not reality. Perception becomes reality.

 

In all cases the geocache doesn't cause the scare. It's the reaction to it. If someone had called it in as a drug stash, the officers would have figured it out in a few minutes and they would have had their reception. If someone hadn't called it in at all, nobody would have cared.

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We had one in a clear plastic pipe tube with a non clear cap. It was hidden in our town centers cannon. When they removed the cannon to do maintenance they found it in the cannon and saw the cord we had attached to the cache to pull it out. Unfortunately the worker thought it was a live round until one of the other shop members realized it was a geocache.

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In all cases the geocache doesn't cause the scare. It's the reaction to it. If someone had called it in as a drug stash, the officers would have figured it out in a few minutes and they would have had their reception. If someone hadn't called it in at all, nobody would have cared.

 

Note to self: Take up smoking pot to alleviate fears that I am a terrorist bomber. :)

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I've said it before.....

 

Caches in pipes are just a bad idea - especially in any urban environment.

 

It is tough for the police to balance prudent caution with hysterical paranoia.

 

I also think there are a lot better choices for containers in urban areas as well. A lot of people say it doesn't matter but it does. A pipe cache under a pier is a poor choice. I hope people aren't condoning that choice...
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Wedding reception cancelled

 

We need to look at it from the perspective of someone who has no idea geocaching exists. The world is a nutty place today and people are on edge for good reason, so, better safe than sorry in most instances. Why use a container that could be easily mistaken for a pipe bomb when there are very good alternatives in the first place?

All the alternatives also look like bombs. So does your backpack. So does your car. Somethings look more like bombs to Joe Public than other things so it all comes down to perception and not reality. Perception becomes reality.

 

Well that explains it! I don't have a backpack but my car looks like a bomb? No wonder I keep getting the "one finger salute" :) ......

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[broad philosophical generalization]

This issue just brings to mind all of the ways that our society has become more and more fragmented and self-centered. We're all wrapped up in our own little worlds today and have zero time to stop and see the rest of the world around us. When something from another small segment of society pops up on our radar, if its something we're not used to seeing we become alarmed.

 

Every Police Chief and Sheriff in the Country is afraid to be the one that didn't take a "threat" seriously. We have 7-8 24 hour news channels that are starving to keep something "interesting" on TV all the time. The average person is now a newsman if they have a cellphone with video capability.

 

Can you imagine Walter Kronkite leading the CBS Evening news with grainy, wobbly footage of a barfight 30 years ago? Its on constant loop on any of the CNN/MSNBC/whatever channels now.

 

To us a geocache in the middle of the woods or the middle of an urban setting is no big deal because its part of our world.

 

To a resident of a low income urban neighborhood the street they live on is probably something they don't think twice about walking down every day. For many people reading this forum, its a place that would double their heart rate if they were walking there. Its all a matter of what is "normal" to us.

 

Society in general is probably no more paranoid or ignorant than it was 30 years ago. We just have more ways to broadcast that ignorance to each other now.

[/broad philosophical generalization]

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In all cases the geocache doesn't cause the scare. It's the reaction to it. If someone had called it in as a drug stash, the officers would have figured it out in a few minutes and they would have had their reception. If someone hadn't called it in at all, nobody would have cared.

I agree with this in principle, but I'm not sure the totality of the blame should be laid at the feet of the goober who called the cops. When Joe Muggle calls in a suspicious device, the initial responder will be a street cop whose primary goal is to determine if he/she thinks the device is suspicious and merits further action. If the officer sees a piece of plastic pipe with end caps on it, with no fuse, timer or trigger device on it, in an area that would not make a good target, and decides against all evidence and common sense that it might be an improvised explosive device, that's the point when the EOD unit will get dispatched.

 

I will add that there are departments that have removed common sense and experience from the equation, by requiring an EOD response to anything that gets reported to dispatch, but these are the exception, not the rule.

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I liked the quote from mom:

 

Hrapko was surprised to learn her son and daughter-in-law's reception was spoiled by techno-savvy treasure hunters.

 

"What? That's just crazy," Hrapko said. "Our minds went to the worst while we were waiting. We thought maybe someone didn't want us to have a nice reception because we were Northerners."

 

Talk about paranoia. :anitongue:

 

I agree, us people from the south, east, and west need to band together and take these people out.

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I liked the quote from mom:

 

Hrapko was surprised to learn her son and daughter-in-law's reception was spoiled by techno-savvy treasure hunters.

 

"What? That's just crazy," Hrapko said. "Our minds went to the worst while we were waiting. We thought maybe someone didn't want us to have a nice reception because we were Northerners."

 

Talk about paranoia. B)

 

I agree, us people from the south, east, and west need to band together and take these people out.

 

:anitongue: So you don't think it was some elaborate plot by a local geocacher to use his amazing psychic power to look way into the future so he could place a cache that would mess up the future wedding reception of a Northerner? B) All I can say is that I feel sorry for the new husband.... :P Edited by TrailGators
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In all cases the geocache doesn't cause the scare. It's the reaction to it. If someone had called it in as a drug stash, the officers would have figured it out in a few minutes and they would have had their reception. If someone hadn't called it in at all, nobody would have cared.

I agree with this in principle, but I'm not sure the totality of the blame should be laid at the feet of the goober who called the cops. When Joe Muggle calls in a suspicious device, the initial responder will be a street cop whose primary goal is to determine if he/she thinks the device is suspicious and merits further action. If the officer sees a piece of plastic pipe with end caps on it, with no fuse, timer or trigger device on it, in an area that would not make a good target, and decides against all evidence and common sense that it might be an improvised explosive device, that's the point when the EOD unit will get dispatched.

 

I will add that there are departments that have removed common sense and experience from the equation, by requiring an EOD response to anything that gets reported to dispatch, but these are the exception, not the rule.

We are in agreement on the goober. I don't blame them at all. They are doing what they are supposed to do.

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Let's look at this from the other side for a moment (by that, I mean law enforcement).

 

I did that for 20 years with the NYPD, retiring in 2002, so I have some experience with this. I was assigned to the highway patrol, and one of our jobs was providing escorts for the emergency services unit's bomb trucks.

 

We had to get the trucks to the scene of an incident, and then escort them, on as much of a cleared roadway as was possible, to the outdoor range at Rodman's Neck, in the Bronx.

 

Here are some of the "innocent" packages that I have escorted.

 

A Maglite flashlight, that had been left on the side of the road, in a new factory issue box. Inside the flashlight was black powder, a battery, and it was wired to go off when the switch was pressed.

 

A length of PVC pipe, with a live (God knows where it came from) hand grenade in it. One of those modern "ball" type grenades. The pin had been pulled, and the spoon (that's what flies off and activates the primer) was held in only by the sides of the pipe. There was some cord attached to the top of the grenade, and then to the end cap, and some more cord attached to the bottom of the grenade, and then to the other end cap. So either way it was opened, the "spoon" would have flew off and the grenade exploded. That one was placed in a playground, underneath some benches.

 

Mortar shells in tubes that originally had military stencils on it, but had been painted light blue. Live mortar shells BTW. Found in a house basement after a domestic disturbance call.

 

A thermos from a child's lunchbox, also loaded with black powder, and primed to detonate when the inner cap was removed. Found outside an elementary school by an alert parent.

 

And so on.

 

The question isn't, "am I paranoid?" rather, "am I paranoid enough?

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...The question isn't, "am I paranoid?" rather, "am I paranoid enough?

 

Excellent Perspective. We tend to focus on caches that get mistaken for bombs. I'd rather see a mistaken cache blown up than someone mistake the real thing for a cache.

 

An officer I worked with for a class relating to caches told me that there were far more real calls than false alarms. He then followed up that question with our state communications office who gave me the stats. About 5% were "unconfirmed" as to it's real status. The rest they tracked were all real calls.

 

Geocachers for the most part just don't want to see geocaching come under fire because they do get called in on occasion. None of them want to see anyone hurt because they don't assume the worst when they come across a cache.

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The headline for the same story in the Augusta Chronicle said, "Wedding reception ruined by geocache."

 

Wait til they find out you can ruin whole marriages with it too. :smile:

 

Anywho...I'd be fine with never seeing another pipe cache again in my life. Aside from the whole "pipe bomb" thing, stuff gets crammed into the end, they leak and the threaded ends lock up.

 

Never seemed like a good idea in any hide to me.

 

Bret

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Talk with anyone who works on a bomb squad. Most legitimate bombs are boxes. What are most bombs made out of? Tupperware. :smile:

 

All of talk about pipe bombs is laughable. :lol:

 

Besides, they had permission from the property owner and the continer was clearly labled. :lol:

 

I do not recommed using pipe becuase they freeze in the winter. Not only can you not open them, but they split and crack when water gets in the threads. They do not make a good container. :smile:

Edited by Rupert2
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If it's not pipes it's alarm clocks!

 

Has the whole country turned paranoid?

 

A bunch of high-school kids set alarm clocks to all go off at 9:15 to celebrate the last morning of school before graduation.

 

Here is how it was treated and reported - absolutely ridiculous!

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,283792,00.html

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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Talk with anyone who works on a bomb squad. Most legitimate bombs are boxes. What are most bombs made out of? Tupperware. :smile:

 

The problem is, bomb squads are not the people who find these caches, it's ordinary people who hear words like "pipe bomb" see a pipe laying somewhere and connect the two.

 

It's a problem of perception, and it could easily be prevented.

 

 

Has the whole country turned paranoid?

 

Yeah, about five years, nine months and seven days ago.

 

Bret

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If it's not pipes it's alarm clocks!

 

Has the whole country turned paranoid?

 

A bunch of high-school kids set alarm clocks to all go off at 9:15 to celebrate the last morning of school before graduation.

 

Here is how it was treated and reported - absolutely ridiculous!

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,283792,00.html

 

Agreed. Apparently both my children and I wake up to false bombs every morning. If word got out my kids could be banned from school!

 

Actually they need to refine the law and how they go about things so that when something that was never represented to be a bomb, or intended to look like a bomb isn't a bomb everone says "better safe than sorry" and goes home. We have enough people in enough real trouble to have a need to make extra trouble out of nothing.

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The problem people are having with this is the thought that the person who reported the "pipe bomb" and the police overreacted. This is from the perspective of 20/20 hindsight.

 

With a bomb squad, there isn't the luxury of being right "only" 75% of the time or even higher. Either you're right all the time, or people get killed. I know that sounds ridiculous, but you would be surprised, and probably rather dismayed, to find out just how many actual "devices" that could make loud noises and hurt and/or kill people there actually are out there.

 

To be sure, there are many, many hoaxes, overreactions, and just plain misidentifications. But who makes that call? Who says, "hey, it's probably just something harmless, ignore it."

 

Would you go back on that pier?

 

Would you let your children go back on that pier? Be honest in your answer now.

 

I've seen the aftermath of one of these things exploding in a home, killing and injuring people. It isn't pretty. No, that's just too glib.

 

It's downright disgusting.

 

I've seen the results.

 

We've all also seen the results of too lax attention to things. Also a case of 20/20 hindsight.

 

Just so you know, bomb squad officers/firefighters (some places use the fire department as their bomb techs) are willing to do things that would make you run to a bathroom in order to protect perfect strangers. They know firsthand what can happen. Second guessing them, or worse, ridiculing them in their professional judgment, is a huge mistake and a grave disservice to those people.

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The problem people are having with this is the thought that the person who reported the "pipe bomb" and the police overreacted. ....

 

The overreacting starts when someone condems geocaching or other legitimate and harmless activities because of a response.

 

I think the only real torches and pitchfork moment over someone who called in a cache was when it was a cacher how had first found the cache, then decided to call it in to make a point. Moron.

 

I agree fully that second guessing or riduculing the responders is not right. Also those people are seldom the ones grandstanding and condeming geocaching and other activities that do generate a report that proves to be false on occasion. Elected officials on the other hand...

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I quoted this from another thread. It gives the other extreme possibility...

 

Here was a CITO event that took place where a real pipe bomb was found by a cacher in the group, bomb squad was called in, so beware there is always a chance of finding the real thing. Read through the logs for more info.

 

May not be worthy to be listed on your bookmarks but good to know info.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...=y&decrypt=

 

Here is a small article about it, does don't say our groupe but does say it was found.

 

http://wewwild.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html

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Just so you know, bomb squad officers/firefighters (some places use the fire department as their bomb techs) are willing to do things that would make you run to a bathroom in order to protect perfect strangers. They know firsthand what can happen. Second guessing them, or worse, ridiculing them in their professional judgment, is a huge mistake and a grave disservice to those people.

 

Thank you. I get a kick out of all the Monday morning quarterbacks here who deride the police for doing their job.

 

Put it this way, if that was your father, son, or daughter responding to the "suspicious package" call, would you want him or her to dismiss it as a probable game piece, or would you want him or her to use their training and take every precaution?

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Just so you know, bomb squad officers/firefighters (some places use the fire department as their bomb techs) are willing to do things that would make you run to a bathroom in order to protect perfect strangers. They know firsthand what can happen. Second guessing them, or worse, ridiculing them in their professional judgment, is a huge mistake and a grave disservice to those people.

 

Thank you. I get a kick out of all the Monday morning quarterbacks here who deride the police for doing their job.

 

Put it this way, if that was your father, son, or daughter responding to the "suspicious package" call, would you want him or her to dismiss it as a probable game piece, or would you want him or her to use their training and take every precaution?

I totally agree. Can you imagine the public reaction if one was real and they brushed it off?
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Complete over reaction. 1st anything can potentially be a bomb encasement. 2 examples.

1. 3 years ago outside our county building one of the people who worked there had been eating lunch in a corner outside in an area that was semi secluded during the summer, it was also by a rarely used door. He was called to do something and forgot he had left the bag in the corner. Later that day around 4:00 someone had decided to walk in the building through that rarely used door and saw it and freaked out. The bomb squad was called. They X-Rayed it and found out it was a bag with part of a lunch in it.

2. 4 weeks ago a case was found outside a police station in one of our towns. The whole street was closed off and so on and so forth. It ended up being a professional photographers film case to hold lots of film.

 

Don’t just overreact and say oh my you should get rid of all pipe caches and make strict rules against using them. Today anybody can set anything down and to someone it looks suspicious. Those people freak out and call the cops. If it is done legally and it is a good hide I wouldn’t think anything of it. If it was a pipe lying in the middle of the sidewalk or a gutter then I would be suspicious but hidden under a pier or with other pipes or anything where the blast wouldn’t be directed to hurt someone then I wouldn’t worry.

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An officer I worked with for a class relating to caches told me that there were far more real calls than false alarms.

That's the exact opposite of my personal law enforcement experience. I'll respond to at least two "suspicious" object complaints a week. Call it roughly 100 per year. Of those 100 "suspicious" objects, 1 might be a device. Maybe. The remaining 99 were rusty metal pipes, PVC pipes, tackle boxes, handbags, backpacks, a fishing reel, (yeah, some goomer called in a broke fishing reel along a mostly deserted road as a suspicious object), cases of beer, (on two separate occasions), a full moon hubcap, a discarded mailbox, garbage bags containing dead pets, paint buckets, filing cabinets, and a wooden 4x4 post, to name a few. Of those 99, there were two that I was unable to make a determination on. A phone call resolved one, and an EOD tech resolved the other.

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I only imagine more of this in the future and a possible backlash because of stories like these. Like it or not, "stuff" is going to start happening wether it be: placers being sued, police demanding a geocache registry of caches in their are so they are informed when a cache is in the area, muggles complaining of mysteryious people parking in front of their house, etc.

 

I think most here would argue and not agree with me, but I think geocaching will get worse the more popular it gets. I think we should enjoy it as much as we can right now cuz it wont exist much longeras it exists today. I'm a noob and so I hope I am wrong about this, but its my opinion.

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I only imagine more of this in the future and a possible backlash because of stories like these. Like it or not, "stuff" is going to start happening wether it be: placers being sued, police demanding a geocache registry of caches in their are so they are informed when a cache is in the area, muggles complaining of mysteryious people parking in front of their house, etc.

 

I think most here would argue and not agree with me, but I think geocaching will get worse the more popular it gets. I think we should enjoy it as much as we can right now cuz it wont exist much longeras it exists today. I'm a noob and so I hope I am wrong about this, but its my opinion.

 

BTW, the paranoia in our cities and such is so ridiculous. I can't help but to wonder: did geocaching ruin the reception, or did law enforcement?

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