How Buried Is "buried"

July 1, 2005

I have a cache idea I would like opinions on. A length of PVC pipe (2 ft) with one end closed and the other with a screw in plug. Stuck vertically in the ground with about a foot below and a foot above, obviously screw plug up. The idea would be to unscrew the plug to get inside but there would be no need to dig to get to it and the pipe itself would be in plain sight. Placement would disturb nothing but some ugly dirt and at its site it would resemble someother bits of exposed plumbing. Would this be alright or does it violate the no buried cache rule, and if so why is it a bad thing? Thanks.

24.7k · July 1, 2005

The NPS banned caches due to thinking (incorrectly) that caches were buried.

That's why.

July 1, 2005

You could go as far as putting the whole pipe down in the ground and fastening a rock to the top of it and make it visible above ground, because technically the rock is a part of the container.

Yess, your idea will work.

6.4k · July 1, 2005

Off-limit (Physical) Caches

Caches may be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):

Caches that are buried. If a shovel, trowel or other “pointy” object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate.

So, is it acceptable?

2.7k · July 1, 2005

Duke of Earl Posted on Jul 1 2005, 12:14 AM

does it violate the no buried cache rule, and if so why is it a bad thing?

You're not actually dealing with a "rule". If you look in the Official FAQ there are a few "rules" for finding and eventually logging a Cache find. But for placing a Cache and getting it listed on GC.com you have "guidelines".

Guidelines can be more flexible than rules, but the guidelines are there for a good reason. Groundspeak doesn't want to give anyone the impression that Caches are going to be buried on their land.

But if it's on Private Property (with express permission of the land owner) you might be able to get this approved. But the only way to find out, is to submit your idea for approval. And don't get all bent out of shape if the decision is "no".

It would be even better to contact your local approver and ask about this first. Find out if your situation has any chance to qualify for an exception to the guideline. And again: if the decision is no, don't take it personally. Don't blame the approver. You are the one trying to push the guidelines.

July 1, 2005

I have a cache idea I would like opinions on. A length of PVC pipe (2 ft) with one end closed and the other with a screw in plug. Stuck vertically in the ground with about a foot below and a foot above, obviously screw plug up. The idea would be to unscrew the plug to get inside but there would be no need to dig to get to it and the pipe itself would be in plain sight.

Well I agree with the poster before me that you have to run this by the local approver to see what they say and to have any chance at the idea being considered you would have to have definite approval from the land owner/manager.

However I wanted to comment on the idea of a hollow tube secured in place by burying a portion in the ground.

I did a clever cache recently that was in such a "container".

The container wasn't put in place by the cacher, but by the city. It was a hollow plastic post along the road with a reflector on it. One of those "hey, wake up an intersection is coming up" type things. It had a rubber end cap on it that was easily removable. The cacher simply stuffed some paper into the tube so the micro cache wouldn't fall to the bottom and set the container inside and replaced the cover.

It made for an interesting find since the coords clearly pointed one to the side of the road at a busy intersection and there really wasn't anywhere to hide a cache.

For reference I am referring to this cache

3.8k · July 1, 2005

I am not going to comment on the buried part but it has been my experience that screw on plumbing caps are rarely waterproof, every container I have found like this has been full of water.

July 1, 2005

One that I found recently sounds similar, where the piece of pipe was located was not the logical place for an actual cleanout. In the hollow under the plug was a film canister.

A few holes in the bottom with some gravel should eliminate standing water. Those plugs with male threads that have a square on the top are not watertight unless snugged down, if they are loose enough to turn by hand they will leak. The other style has a male adaptor that you screw a cap with female threads onto, more obvious but more water proof.

I would agree that in most cases burying should be avoided, consider that each cache is a learning experience so do you want kids or adults opening actual sewer cleanouts on other caches?

I like the idea of the cleanout even though you have to use a pointy object to place, same as the fake pop up sprinkler head.

Edited July 1, 2005 by Rick618

1.2k · July 1, 2005

You could go as far as putting the whole pipe down in the ground and fastening a rock to the top of it and make it visible above ground, because technically the rock is a part of the container.
Yess, your idea will work.

Im sorry what part of this guideline are you thinking makes it right??

Off-limit (Physical) Caches
Caches may be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):

Caches that are buried. If a shovel, trowel or other “pointy” object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate.

Unless you have expressed permission from the land owner AND you have cleared it with your reviewer you can NOT bury a cache.

"Thats the fact, Jack"

38.2k · July 1, 2005

and if so why is it a bad thing

Because land managers don't like the idea of us walking around with shovels and digging up their parks.

21.9k · July 1, 2005

Top three land manager concerns about geocaching, based on my personal conversations, correspondence, working on geocaching policies, and reading policies developed by others:

1. "We don't want people burying things on our land and others digging all over the place to look for it."

2. "Somebody will put something illegal or improper inside the cache."

3. "The geocache will cause erosion/social trails/other damage to the environment."

Firm stances in the listing guidelines on all three of these issues is not an accident.

July 1, 2005

Top three land manager concerns about geocaching, based on my personal conversations, correspondence, working on geocaching policies, and reading policies developed by others:

1. "We don't want people burying things on our land and others digging all over the place to look for it."

The theoretical cache in question is not buried to the point of invisibility thereby causing people to dig around looking for it. It's in plain view. Why is this a problem?

I've seen caches hidden under logs and clumps of moss which do cause one to poke around more than should be necessary and since they are not in plain sight should really be considered to be buried. No?

2. "Somebody will put something illegal or improper inside the cache."

This can be said for all caches...I guess everything larger than a nano should be archived.

3. "The geocache will cause erosion/social trails/other damage to the environment."

Oops. I guess all caches not hidden on paved roads and concrete buildings should be archived as well.

I really don't have a problem with following guidlines and rules but in this oh-so-adamant case of not burying a cache -- even half buried -- I think there should be a policy put in place that says all caches should remain plainly visible at all times.

....no more throwing debris on top to cover it because that is burying it.

38.2k · July 1, 2005

The theoretical cache in question is not buried to the point of invisibility thereby causing people to dig around looking for it. It's in plain view. Why is this a problem?

But someone had to dig to place it. That is the problem.

July 1, 2005

This is a pretty nifty Travel Bug Hotel, located right off the autobahn. Is it considered buried?

DC

July 1, 2005

I have always understood it to be as long as the cache is not covered by dirt it is not considered to be buried.. You do not know if the hole was there in the first place or the hider actually dug one. There have been a few caches I have found/seen/hid. That there was already a depression in the ground made perfect for a cache. Made by either a tree, a rock, or animal.

Now, the owner did not have to dig, the hider will not have to dig, but its still in the ground. (and visible I will add, although could be camo'd). I think that if you are going to put a cache at ground level it should be uncovered anyway. Fake drain pipes, or even sprinkler heads, all placed in the ground but not needing to dig. All this, of course, with permission from the land owner.

"I really don't have a problem with following guidlines and rules but in this oh-so-adamant case of not burying a cache -- even half buried -- I think there should be a policy put in place that says all caches should remain plainly visible at all times.

"

-Bad thought That would completely dullen this game/sport to unbelievable levels.

S

Edited July 1, 2005 by Shifty54

6.4k · July 1, 2005

If you had to dig a hole to place it, it's buried.

If you have to dig a hole to find it, it's buried.

Our 8yr old understands the word "buried", why can't some adults?

1.3k · July 1, 2005

I've been caching for 3 1/2 half years now and buried caches have not been allowed in all that time. But everytime someone posts a link to a recent news article the reporter almost always uses the phrase 'Buried Treasure'.

We have a hard enough time trying to get that misconception cleared up as it is, we don't need to be adding fuel to the fire.

July 1, 2005

Buried ...... Dig ...... BAD WORDS BAD BAD

Hidden ...... Moved ..... GOOD WORDS GOOD GOOD

ImpalaBob

1k · July 1, 2005

If you had to dig a hole to place it, it's buried.
If you have to dig a hole to find it, it's buried.

Our 8yr old understands the word "buried", why can't some adults?

When I was a kid, I used to think a "buried" was one of those feathered things that always carped on my father's truck.

1.2k · July 1, 2005

If you had to dig a hole to place it, it's buried.
If you have to dig a hole to find it, it's buried.

Our 8yr old understands the word "buried", why can't some adults?

Mopar its the standard deal, They keep asking a question till they get the answer they wanted all the time. I seem to remember a pony was involved.

July 1, 2005

Golly, guys, thanks for the opinions. Sounds like it is a bad idea. Guess I won't do it. And just think - I had thought I was as smart as an eight year old. Looks like my eight year old was right after all.

Thanks also for those helpful and clever ad hominum outbursts. They have really helped with my personal development.

19k · July 1, 2005

If you had to dig a hole to place it, it's buried.
If you have to dig a hole to find it, it's buried.

Our 8yr old understands the word "buried", why can't some adults?

When I was 8 years old, and even today at 55, I consider "buried" to mean "covered with dirt". Digging a hole is digging a hole. Putting something into that hole is putting something into that hole. Filling the hole in is burying what I put in the hole.

July 1, 2005

DofE, If there is one thing I learned on these forums and other ones, is you got to have thick skin. Remember, what is written, you cannot tell the body launguage not the tone in typing. You just gave us a spring board!!!

Back the subject. Buried or a little buried is like being a little pregnant.

July 1, 2005

I have been told as long as the property owner does not mind if you dig a little AND as long as NO digging is involved in locating or retrieving the cache... it is OK I have 2 caches using Valve or meter boxes all underground except the lid

20.7k · July 1, 2005

When I was 8 years old, and even today at 55, I consider "buried" to mean "covered with dirt". Digging a hole is digging a hole. Putting something into that hole is putting something into that hole. Filling the hole in is burying what I put in the hole.

You are correct, of course. It is confusing.

A simpler way to look at it is that there is no digging allowed. That includes hiding a cache, as well as finding it.

edit: Words should have spaces between them so one would know where the first one stops and the second one begins.

Edited July 1, 2005 by sbell111

38.2k · July 2, 2005

I have always understood it to be as long as the cache is not covered by dirt it is not considered to be buried.. You do not know if the hole was there in the first place or the hider actually dug one. There have been a few caches I have found/seen/hid. That there was already a depression in the ground made perfect for a cache. Made by either a tree, a rock, or animal.

Now, the owner did not have to dig, the hider will not have to dig, but its still in the ground.

The issue is digging. Technically if you place a cache and cover it with leaves or bark, it's buried and technically if you dig a hole, but leave the lid exposed it's not buried. Why is the former OK but the latter not? It goes to the reason behind the rule which is that land managers don't want us digging up their parks to place caches.

So, no diggie - no probbie, diggie - probbie.

July 2, 2005

I've wondered myself about the "how buried is buried" question, so it was nice to see this thread.

Back after finding my first couple of caches I bounced the idea off of my friend about making a cache out in a field that's bur... hidden just under the grass (or whatever), much like the pic above of the TB Hotel. This was before I even purchased my GPSr and learned firsthand that supposedly being within 10 feet of a cache isn't always nearly as close as you might think. And of course my friend also pointed out that such a cache wasn't allowed. I was a bit disappointed to have what I thought was a novel idea shot down, but I recovered.

I understood the original post here as discussing the hiding of a cache below ground level, not searching for one. I mean, who here has ever included a shovel when they go out caching? Anyone involved with the sport knows full well that they're not going to have to excavate a cache to retrieve it.

We're always going to be brainstorming new and inventive ways to hide caches. It keeps the sport fresh, interesting, exciting... challenging (and many other adjectives) Having a discussion about what constitutes burying caches is just a part of that, and inevitable.

Almost every traditional cache I've found has been buried in some sense: with rocks, leaves, moss, sticks, bark, logs. Not a single one needed a shovel (trovel, spade, spoon, etc) to either hide or find. What we commonly refer to as "covering" is just as easily interpreted by the public-at-large as "burying".

And... look at this from a land manager's possible point of view (of which I am not, nor do I know any, but I digress): whether someone goes and digs up an area with a shovel looking for a "buried" cache, or goes through that same area looking for a "covered" or "hidden" cache and turns over logs, sticks, piles of leaves... the resulting mess is still a mess. Just becasue you don't dig, or use a shovel, doesn't mean you leave no trace.

I agree that you should not dig a hole to hide a cache, and I understand that we can't allow it on private property, even with permission, because of the precedent it will set. Nature has thus far provided a bounty of holes, nooks, crannies, cracks, crevices and hideaways and we haven't filled them all yet!

July 2, 2005

In the "old days" (2001 or so), I put one of these out. Almost exactly as described in the first post. It wasn't long before the screwcap became so wedged that no one could get it open and very few cachers carry channel locks with them. Plus, every time I checked on the container, the insides were wet. Even though it's a sewer cap, it doesn't keep all the water out.

Someone finally dug it out of the ground, took it back to their car, where they forced it open. They signed the log in a rather unfriendly manner and then tossed it on the ground beside where they found it without putting it back. The next cacher alerted me to the problem.

I somewhat disagree with some of the guidelines from a philosophical perspective, but I won't be burying PVC again. Too much trouble.

July 3, 2005

I'm seeing a small trend here where people are equating "buried" with "covered with dirt"....

Using this sense, if I was caught in an avalanche of snow and was stuck 5 feet under, I'm not really buried under the snow then?

Come on people! Buried means covered or concealed by something...period. You can be buried under rocks, gravel, snow, pre-cut firewood and silk pillows. Dirt has nothing to do with it!

Using pointy objects to get there though is what it's all about.

which brings us back to the OP's question...and as long as he didn't have to dig the hole to plant his pipe, then there shouldn't be a problem. At least it "is in plain sight" (IOW, no other "digging" would be required right? So no extra damage to anyone's land above & beyond the usual flatfoot trodding of greenery)

Edited July 3, 2005 by Deneye

July 3, 2005

You could go as far as putting the whole pipe down in the ground and fastening a rock to the top of it and make it visible above ground, because technically the rock is a part of the container.
Yess, your idea will work.

We have a cache that we have created that is like the rock idea stated here. We have used it and no one has complained. The top is exposed but uses natural camo to conceal the top. It can be viewed at are website.

Trust me there are many out there like this. :wacko: :unsure:

July 3, 2005

I am not going to comment on the buried part but it has been my experience that screw on plumbing caps are rarely waterproof, every container I have found like this has been full of water.

you could put another container inside that is more water proof and just use the pvc as a hiding spot like a knot hole in a tree. :unsure:

How Buried Is "buried"

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