E-mail Slamming

February 8, 2005

I'm fairly new to this great addiction but I read a post on the AGA website this morning that is just WRONG!!.At least 10 very good caches are gone,dead,archived because the owners were repeatedly hammered with bad,nasty e-mails about their caches.These members have pulled out,quit altogether geocaching because of a bunch of morons.I don't know who they are but there is an old saying"If you can't say something good about someone,then keep your mouth shut.These cachers were having fun just like the rest of us and got it ruined for themselves by rude and hateful people that evidently shouldn't be caching in the first place.Not all caches are epic adventures,if it doesn't sound like something you want to go after then don't go after it,don't hurt the people who keep the game going for the rest of us.Well that's my rant for the day,maybe I need more coffee,more coffeeeeeeee.......

7.2k · February 8, 2005

Maybe a bit more background so the rest of us can form an opinion?

38.2k · February 8, 2005

At least 10 very good caches are gone,dead,archived because the owners were repeatedly hammered with bad,nasty e-mails about their caches

I can't see numerous people sending "bad, nasty e-mails" about very good caches. I've placed 110 caches and I like to think most of them were very good. In the 3.5 years I've been doing this I've yet to receive one (that's zero) bad, nasty e-mails about any of my caches. I do know if I was "hammered" with negative e-mails about one of my caches I'd think that perhaps the problem could be with my cache.

I think there is more to this than you are mentioning.

Edited February 8, 2005 by briansnat

February 8, 2005

Ok,Idon't know how to insert links into my posts,but the post I am reffering to is called"What's up with all the new caches in Cullman" or something to that effect,it's on alacache.com website.

38.2k · February 8, 2005

Ok,Idon't know how to insert links into my posts,but the post I am reffering to is called"What's up with all the new caches in Cullman" or something to that effect,it's on alacache.com website.

I'll help you out.

Unpleasant Geocachers

Whats the deal with thes new caches in Cullmann

Not much helpful info there though.

Edited February 8, 2005 by briansnat

2.6k · February 8, 2005

Idon't know how to insert links into my posts

Use http:// tags. It's made very easy with the code buttons that lie directly above the text box where you type your messages. You can also practise using tags at the test thread on Getting Started forum.

6.4k · February 8, 2005

I got as far as the thread mentioned by the OP, and for now I have to second Briansnat's post. Good caches don't usually get multiple complaints. I didn't see what the definition of "nasty emails" is in this context, so I can't comment on that yet, but multiple people actually taking the time to email a hider to complain about a poor hide is somewhat telling. I also picked 3 of the hider's caches at random and all 3 were full of logs like "Found it" and "TNLNSL, thanks". That's usually pretty telling too.

I'll probably wait until Jeff or TAR or someone else local weighs in with some facts before commenting further.

Edited February 8, 2005 by Mopar

6.5k · February 8, 2005

Reads like something to be left alone in here, and best handled locally like the AR is already trying to do. Yawn........ :huh:

Or maybe we should make it the next hot topic just for fun?

1.3k · February 8, 2005

In the first page of the first thread (unpleasant geocachers) there is a copy of one of the emails the person sent to TAR and TAR's reply.

There hasn't been a copy of one of the emails the "unpleasent geocacher(s)" sent the guy who quit - so I can't say if they were rude or the guy can't take constructive critiscism.

I don't think there's a place for rudeness, but I do think there is a place for friendly advice. Sometimes people don't know how to give it, and sometimes people don't know how to take it.

Of course, this could in fact be just as stated.

I don't have enough information to really say.

southdeltan

1.4k · February 8, 2005

I'll probably wait until Jeff or TAR or someone else local weighs in with some facts before commenting further.

Yes, the person in general did receive some emails from some other cachers, who hasn't? Yes, the caches might have been lame.... I didn't find them so I can't really comment. Is this something that normally happens within our statewide organization? No, it isn't.

I've received emails from people who didn't like some of my caches. Did I quit and run away? Nope.

I'll let TAR respond further if he wishes as he knows all the details and since he was the person that handled the initial complaint I would leave it to his discretion how much is publicized, if any.

One thing to remember, there are always two sides to every story

38.2k · February 8, 2005

There hasn't been a copy of one of the emails the "unpleasent geocacher(s)" sent the guy who quit - so I can't say if they were rude or the guy can't take constructive critiscism.

I don't think there's a place for rudeness, but I do think there is a place for friendly advice. Sometimes people don't know how to give it, and sometimes people don't know how to take it.

I think way too many people have very thin skins. In the e-mail sent to TAR you see a guy who apparently received one unpleasant e-mail from another geocacher and because of it skipped going to an event he was eagerly planning on attending and considered withdrawing from the AGA and archiving his caches. I admit I wasn't privy to that e-mail, but unless the e-mail contained death threats against your family would a reasonable person chuck a favorite hobby because of one unpleasant e-mail?

Now as to the person who was "hammered with mean, nasty e-mails", were the emails really mean and nasty, or where they just critical? Some people just can't accept criticism and take it as a personal attack. Maybe this is what is involved here. Of course this is just conjecture.

1.4k · February 8, 2005

You're on the right track with your analogy Brian.

2.3k · February 8, 2005

Sounds like a local problem not something for this forum. At the very least is belongs in the regional forum.

38.2k · February 8, 2005

Sounds like a local problem not something for this forum. At the very least is belongs in the regional forum.

I disagree. Though this specific incident occurred in one state, the OP's post admonishing geocachers to be nice in their logs and the responses about some geocachers being way too sensitive, are topics of general interest.

1.4k · February 8, 2005

Yep, let's discuss this matter since this isn't isolated only to our group. PLEASE move it back to the General forum.

6.7k · February 8, 2005

I have the great fortune to be a member of the Alabama Geocaching Association(AGA), an association of which I am justifiably proud!

We've accumulated a great group of people who almost without exception get along and share their diverse approaches to this great game.

With almost 500 members we have 12,695 forum posts - not one of which has ever needed to be moderated!

All that said, as Public Information Contact and self-appointed promoter of the AGA I did recieve three complaints from members who had recieved abusive emails regarding their hides, the way they played the game, or both.

Of these three, one quit and archived all of his caches, and two were so disheartened that they considered quitting.

The member who quit did make it clear that the insulting emails came from both gc.com (non-AGA) members and AGA members, so this is in fact an issue greater than our state association.

I find this totally unacceptable, and published the situation while protecting both the sender and recipient's identification as a plea for this to stop, and a reminder that abusers of our association would be banned.

Many commenters here and on alacache.com have suggested that the recipients should have "thicker skin" or that there was something "wrong" with their caches and thus they somehow deserved insult.

I cannot accept either of those as valid - I do not care how much of a "people person" you are or aren't, how easily offended or not, or how, where or why you hide caches, if you are a member of the AGA you will not be subjected to personal attack!

I don't have to like you, or even know you, to fight for your right to feel comfortable in our online geocaching home.

I believe this to be a one-time event - I have heard no further complaints, despite promising anonymity and publicising my private email as a contact for this issue.

Anyone with an issue or complaint regarding the AGA is encouraged to contact me in private at TheAlabamaRambler@alacache.com.

That this issue was picked up by the national geocaching forum tells me it is one of importance to all. Please consider the tone of your communications when making suggestions to other geocachers, especially people you don't know.

In this particular case the insults were pointed and not in any way misconstrued - but it can happen that the advice or commentary you write can be if you don't take the recipient's feelings and point-of-view into account.

I think it perfectly acceptable to offer advice and commentary - most people want all the help they can get, but you can tell someone your opinion without saying "Your cache sucks, you are a loser, get out of my game!"

Thanks to all of you who promote the game and promote kindness and ethics among geocachers.

Ed

1.4k · February 8, 2005

Excellent post Ed!

7.2k · February 8, 2005

Yep, nice post Ed.

5.3k · February 8, 2005

I have had only one complaint from a noob claiming camouflage was not allowed on caches.

38.2k · February 8, 2005

Many commenters here and on alacache.com have suggested that the recipients should have "thicker skin" or that there was something "wrong" with their caches and thus they somehow deserved insult.

I cannot accept either of those as valid - I do not care how much of a "people person" you are or aren't, how easily offended or not, or how, where or why you hide caches, if you are a member of the AGA you will not be subjected to personal attack!

But were these indeed personal attacks, or did the person perceive criticism as a personal attack? I really can't see just one person receiving numerous, "abusive" e-mails while the vast majority of others in the region are not experiencing the same thing.

1.3k · February 8, 2005

Is there any way we could see an excerpt of the emails?

You published the exchange between yourself and one of the people who had a problem. I'd think it'd be ok to publish the email that person (or other persons) recieved if the personal information was removed.

---

Regardless - GC.com clearly states on their mailer program that sort of email is not accepted. I now that Alacache has the same view on this sort of behavior.

I'd urge the person to report the emails to the contact addresses so the offenders could be contacted.

southdeltan

2.3k · February 8, 2005

Regardless - GC.com clearly states on their mailer program that sort of email is not accepted. I now that Alacache has the same view on this sort of behavior.

I'd urge the person to report the emails to the contact addresses so the offenders could be contacted.

southdeltan

It's not acceptable behavior on alacache.com, either! The problem was a surprise to me -- the AGA is normally a great place to be! I'm proud to be a member.

If they were indeed abusive, threatening emails, I'd also be fowrarding them to the abuse folks at GC.com. I understand they take out the bad apples from the barrel.

1.3k · February 9, 2005

Regardless - GC.com clearly states on their mailer program that sort of email is not accepted. I know that Alacache has the same view on this sort of behavior.

I'd urge the person to report the emails to the contact addresses so the offenders could be contacted.

southdeltan

It's not acceptable behavior on alacache.com, either! The problem was a surprise to me -- the AGA is normally a great place to be! I'm proud to be a member.

If they were indeed abusive, threatening emails, I'd also be fowrarding them to the abuse folks at GC.com. I understand they take out the bad apples from the barrel.

Oops - I meant to say KNOW.

You know I know the AGA doesn't approve (and as far as I know it's not something that's happened before) of the emails, FrogBoy :blink:

Sorry for the typo

sd

February 10, 2005

I am sorry that I can't address this particular thread originator's local considerations BUT I can relate to less-than-upbuilding comments directed at my planning, my development, my caches and personally against me in the forums. It is a joy killer.

In an honest attempt to understand WHY one might do such a negative & distasteful thing to another cacher, I have learned that there are some who are hard set against change in a game tha IS migrating to different cache types, hides and locations from what WAS 2-3 years ago.

(People used to celebrate their 100th finds with parties, now it is their 1000th find. The game has grown from 100's of players to 1000's of players, as well. )

These older ones are fighting change and becoming frustrated at only a small measure of success . . . it shows in their comments. But, change is coming as new ideas and people join the game.

These are the people who got it started in different areas of the country, they deserve our consideration and our respect, we should listen to their concerns and mediate our ideas, if possible . . . AND, they need to demonstrate character and respect for others, as well.

Again, it is only a game . . . the best thing to do is not quit - just stay off of the forums and on the trails - it IS about fun andf meeting great new friends.

Granpa Alex

7.2k · February 12, 2005

I have GOT to address this...

It is a joy killer.

Yes, indeed. Our situation is a joy killer indeed. The Charleston area hosted a micro population that was actually fairly nice until someone come along.

In an honest attempt to understand WHY one might do such a negative & distasteful thing to another cacher, I have learned that there are some who are hard set against change in a game tha IS migrating to different cache types, hides and locations from what WAS 2-3 years ago.

I'd be willing to bet if geocaching turned into something which included only those like those fine examples you placed in Charleston there would be a lot less participation. These are the typical cache folks are complaining about. It's a shame for them to have come here.

These older ones are fighting change and becoming frustrated at only a small measure of success

"...frustrated at only a small measure of success?" Funny.

... they need to demonstrate character and respect for others, as well.

You mean like not placing caches where the locals don't want them even after being warned they wouldn't be welcomed? Hello, Pot.

The joy killer is someone who is so stubborn as to not admit he was wrong to place such junk.

February 15, 2005

Here's a good example of Barnahasbeen's comment.

Click here.

I've reactivated my Shanty Town cache because it's a good cache. The cache's name indicates where it is located; some trash has been thrown into the ditch nearby, but it is NOT A TRASH HEAP.

Anyone who's afraid after arriving at the parking coords should walk the one block back to the cantina and have a beer.

Edited February 15, 2005 by ValleyRat & TillyMouse

7.2k · February 15, 2005

I've reactivated my Shanty Town cache because it's a good cache. The cache's name indicates where it is located; some trash has been thrown into the ditch nearby, but it is NOT A TRASH HEAP.

Looks like the only person so far to think so is you.

Also, kind of looks like the only reason it exists is so you can claim to own a cache in a foreign country and for folks to claim to have cached in a foreign country. Personally, I think that's a cheap excuse for a cache to exist.

In one of your commentaries in the logs you mention something about "heat" and "kitchen." Might want to take that to heart.

February 16, 2005

Thank you for the post Rambler. I think the AGA is just experiencing "growing pains". This particular incident was from some "newbie" cachers as I understand it and that is going to happen. I am glad that the senior cachers of the AGA have stepped up and said, as the most part, this type of e-mails are unacceptable. I do however agree with briansnat when he stated that people must be able to separate constructive criticism of one's cache and personal attacks. Someone who quits because of a few individuals is most likely the type to quit eventually when something doesn't go their way. I do hope this cacher doesn't quit because they put out caches and I get to find them. Please know this does NOT represent what the AGA stands for.

Edited February 16, 2005 by Bubba Cache

1.4k · February 16, 2005

Geocachers come and geocachers go. I've been geocaching for almost 3 years. Of course my stats aren't as impressive as others, but I'm highly addicted to the game and to the sense of community that I feel with other geocachers. I have really enjoyed getting to meet some cool people and share some fun and knowledge with them. The AGA is a great organization and we have accomplished a lot. The AGA will continue to flourish because we have a great group of members who are dedicated to having good fun, fellowship and attempting to create a lot of fun and memorable geocaches.

February 17, 2005

One of the cachers that this thread is referencing is kind of a friend of mine and got into geocaching because of me. I haven't known him very long (3 or so months), so I can't really say what kind of person he is (whether he has "thick skin" or what) but he DOES seem to be the kind of person that would let something little bother him greatly.

I have found all of his hides before they were archived and as someone that has found over 550 caches, I can say they were NOT "lame". Granted, they weren't the most imaginative or the most difficult, but his diff/terrain levels on his cache pages, IMHO, were right on the money and they were in neat locations. A new cacher won't be expected to place advanced caches right off.

I look at it that if someone gets irate at something this easily (providing that the emails weren't as bad as all that), they're better off not participating.

Edited February 17, 2005 by MoonSilver

February 17, 2005

There is always a constructive way to offer advice. I've had opportunities where the cache I was hunting was way off on the coordinates, etc. A note concerning that but not bashing the cache owner can sometimes get them out to check their own site and coordinates. I've even had some do that to/for me-and it was for the better.

This sport has no room for folks who want to flame people. I have not been to Ala. to hunt for any of the recently archived caches but I find it hard to believe they could all be of such poor quality. Give me a break. As a novice here, I still find new and better ways to hide a cache, cammo a cache, give hints, etc. This is a learning process.

Perhaps the individual who has backed out of GC.com and the Alabama group could be pursuaded to return. This sport is too much fun to be dragged down by an angry few. I use this as my 'escape' from all the junk around me. I don't need anyone throwing more 'junk' my way. Find my caches if you want. If you don't like a few of them, you can avoid any future ones-don't send flaming emails.

February 17, 2005

I did find one of the now archived caches a while back and I thought it was a great cache, especially to be hidden by such a newbie. The location could have possibly been considered a bit unsafe as it was just off of a busy highway, but it really wasn't that bad and it took me to a very beautiful area.

E-mail Slamming

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